List of things to buff Mewtwo

[HakuryuVision]

Yeah, I worded it stupidly. What I meant was we have more vulnerability coming off the ledge, probably because the animation for stand and roll is so slow for us (but the invincibility is probably the same). Using other characters, the difference is stark.

So far i thought Mewtwo was just "meh", but now i'm really starting to feel like he is actually bad....
I mean, a longer vulnerability during ledge recovery is a HUGE flaw. : (

 

[Smog Frog]

i find it hilarious that was also a buggy mess, its like bad programming is part of this characters design

 

[LRodC]

i find it hilarious that was also a buggy mess, its like bad programming is part of this characters design

At least this one is better though, not that it's excusable for this time either since SSB4 wasn't as rushed as Melee in development. I feel like they probably rushed to get Mewtwo out so they could get to the other 3 DLC characters quicker which was a mistake.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

At least this one is better though, not that it's excusable for this time either since SSB4 wasn't as rushed as Melee in development. I feel like they probably rushed to get Mewtwo out so they could get to the other 3 DLC characters quicker which was a mistake.

Idk, i think mewtwo is significantly worse in smash 4 than in melee.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

Idk, i think mewtwo is significantly worse in smash 4 than in melee.

Well let's see, overall is stronger, more mobile, has an even better recovery, and overall has more viable moves. But he is much lighter, a bigger target, has screwed up hitboxes, laggier moves, one of the worst grab ranges in the game, and throws that are weaker and don't really combo into anything. So whether the cons are more crippling than the pros I guess is up for debate. I'd still say he stands more of a chance in Smash 4 than he did in Melee due to the change in game mechanics and a larger cast, but the arguments for him being worse than is still pretty reasonable. He just needs to get patched up big time, and patched pretty much everywhere. I think the hitboxes and less lag on moves is more important than the weight, though a weight increase would still be nice of course.

 

[RayNoire]

Just had a SHAD Fair straight whiff. Man, where is the hitbox on this thing? I thought it was earlier than the purple claw animation because of the rising Fair issues, but now it looks like it's later.

 

[LRodC]

Just had a SHAD Fair straight whiff. Man, where is the hitbox on this thing? I thought it was earlier than the purple claw animation because of the rising Fair issues, but now it looks like it's later.

Oh wow, it actually is later. That makes absolutely no sense. It would be helpful to get video of his actual hitboxes in yellow similar to what people did in Melee. At least that would help us out and we could just follow those instead of whiffing things that look like they hit but don't.

 

[Browny]

Idk, i think mewtwo is significantly worse in smash 4 than in melee.

Hes definitely better, but his edge in melee was his amazing recovery and edgeguarding ability.

In smash 4 everyone recovers for free except dr mario and little mac, and its hard to edgeguard most characters when they have high priority upbs than can reach the ledge from very far away.

As a result, his strength used against the melee cast is seriously hurt in smash 4.

 

[godogod]

Well let's see, overall is stronger, more mobile, has an even better recovery, and overall has more viable moves. But he is much lighter, a bigger target, has screwed up hitboxes, laggier moves, one of the worst grab ranges in the game, and throws that are weaker and don't really combo into anything. So whether the cons are more crippling than the pros I guess is up for debate. I'd still say he stands more of a chance in Smash 4 than he did in Melee due to the change in game mechanics and a larger cast, but the arguments for him being worse than is still pretty reasonable. He just needs to get patched up big time, and patched pretty much everywhere. I think the hitboxes and less lag on moves is more important than the weight, though a weight increase would still be nice of course.

He didn't have the best hit boxes in Melee, and everyone's throws were downscaled/nerfed since Brawl. He's not that much bigger. In terms of longer frame moves, it's mostly tilts.

Anyway, if we do get a patch in the next update, and Mewtwo gets buffed, I'm not expecting a ton of things. Because the way the patches have been, characters have gotten gradual changes in one or a few categories.

 

[Chiroz]

He didn't have the best hit boxes in Melee, and everyone's throws were downscaled/nerfed since Brawl. He's not that much bigger. In terms of longer frame moves, it's mostly tilts.

Anyway, if we do get a patch in the next update, and Mewtwo gets buffed, I'm not expecting a ton of things. Because the way the patches have been, characters have gotten gradual changes in one or a few categories.

Ike and Falco got major changes last patch.

 

[Snipnigth]

My fast list:

-Fair: a little more knockback and range.
-bair: a bit more priority.
-shadowball: hitbox while charging.
-confucion need a faster startup so its easier to use vs projectiles. (i guess sakura gave it that weakness since it also works as a comand grab, but i dont think its necessary he has plenty of weakness).
- A faster startup on jab1.
-Ftilt: should be longer.
-almost forgot, i feel upthrow should have a bit more knockback, i think it should kill earlier kinda like nesses back throw :3

 

[LRodC]

Confusion doesn't come out too quickly, but it lasts a pretty long time after it's thrown. It's not like Mario's cape where you have to time it perfectly in order to reflect something. I think the move's good enough as a reflector. You just have to time it earlier than you would other reflectors, and it's usually safe to do so since it lasts a little while.

Definitely agree with the up throw buff though. That and a better grab alone would push him up a tier most likely.

 

[RayNoire]

Well...at least we weren't nerfed this time!

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

Well...at least we weren't nerfed this time!

Outside of the f-tilt hitbox duration decreased from 3 frames to 2 frames. Oh and did you see the changes Lucas got? If you haven't, look it up, you'll be mad.

 

[RayNoire]

Only one character knows our struggle.

 

[LRodC]

Only one character knows our struggle.

Two. Zelda's forward tilt does the same thing and also hasn't been fixed since day one.

Also, the forward tilt nerf is barely a nerf. It's just to keep it consistent with the other angled variations of the move (I believe Captain Falcon had a similar change last patch). The buff to forward throw gives it more of a reason to be used as a damage racker and the buff to down smash's knockback is always appreciated. Still hoping the next patch addresses the real problems though.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

Two. Zelda's forward tilt does the same thing and also hasn't been fixed since day one.

What is it with the big, floaty characters always having these problems, except Rosalina?

 

[LRodC]

https://youtu.be/2IiMvw3dltU

Have any of you guys seen this with Samus? I think someone with a capture card on these forums should make a similar video for Mewtwo that displays his hitbox issues and other janky stuff. It's crazy how this kind of stuff gets by the development team.

 

[zeldasmash]

I really don't get why they think characters like Mewtwo & Samus are fine the way they clearly feel borderline unfinished when compared to the rest of the cast. Is it so difficult to fix hitbox placements?

 

[Nexelon]

Somehow, I still think Mewtwo is ok but now that I can notice many issues like the fact sometimes Bair doesn't hit at all, Mewtwo is considerably one of the worst and probably the worst of them all. I still think he's a bit good but he does need a Heavy Buff.

Though I want Mewtwo to keep his light weight, he should get fixed hitboxes, his similar Melee Shadow Ball that charging it hurts someone, more speed and a bit more knock back. Though I don't know what else should work but I hope they strengthen him up so Mewtwo can be more of a tourney viable character.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

After reading some of Mewtwo's in game tips, i'm starting to think some of these "hitbox issues" are intentional. For example, it say Mewtwo's down smash hits right beside its feet, which is the reason why it doesn't hit opponents on the ledge.

 

[LRodC]

After reading some of Mewtwo's in game tips, i'm starting to think some of these "hitbox issues" are intentional. For example, it say Mewtwo's down smash hits right beside its feet, which is the reason why it doesn't hit opponents on the ledge.

Doesn't mean Mewtwo's feet can't be right beside the ledge.

 

[FrankTheStud]

I don't want to come off as rude here, but alot of these buffs would make Mewtwo incredibly overpowered. I see people asking for his up-throw to kill earlier and his backthrow to become a kill throw...That makes two kill throws, which is absolutely insane.
I played a Mewtwo today who beat me by rolling for 4 minutes and keeping me out (granted, I'm a Mario main), and it was frustrating enough with where he's at now. (1.1.0). His spacing is outstanding with his tilts, his recovery is phenomenal, and his air momentum and air game is also far from bad. His downsmash has a fairly long startup, but it's cooldown is ridiculously quick, and if he gets a side-b on you he gets a free forward smash (unless you jump, in which case he just doesn't get punished). Shield into an upthrow is common if you get too defensive back, and downtilts into fairs are common if you get too aggressive, and a devastating upsmash (that sits out for decades with very strange hitboxes) should ypu attack from above. Mario lacks any reliable approach options on Mewtwo as it is, and I can imagine this being the case for many other characters as well. I used to honestly think Mewtwo needed a weight buff and a frame buff on a few of his moves, but he actually is much better than most people think as of now.
That OR the matchup isn't in Mario's favor--I usually don't like to make excuses for getting outplayed, but it could always be a possibility.

 

[RayNoire]

I don't want to come off as rude here, but alot of these buffs would make Mewtwo incredibly overpowered. I see people asking for his up-throw to kill earlier and his backthrow to become a kill throw...That makes two kill throws, which is absolutely insane.
I played a Mewtwo today who beat me by rolling for 4 minutes and keeping me out (granted, I'm a Mario main), and it was frustrating enough with where he's at now. (1.1.0). His spacing is outstanding with his tilts, his recovery is phenomenal, and his air momentum and air game is also far from bad. His downsmash has a fairly long startup, but it's cooldown is ridiculously quick, and if he gets a side-b on you he gets a free forward smash (unless you jump, in which case he just doesn't get punished). Shield into an upthrow is common if you get too defensive back, and downtilts into fairs are common if you get too aggressive, and a devastating upsmash (that sits out for decades with very strange hitboxes) should ypu attack from above. Mario lacks any reliable approach options on Mewtwo as it is, and I can imagine this being the case for many other characters as well. I used to honestly think Mewtwo needed a weight buff and a frame buff on a few of his moves, but he actually is much better than most people think as of now.
That OR the matchup isn't in Mario's favor--I usually don't like to make excuses for getting outplayed, but it could always be a possibility.

If someone's beating you by rolling for 4 minutes, that's not really a reflection on how good the character is. I don't mean to be judgmental or anything (you could be playing online with a bad connection, and I can certainly sympathize), but every character can do that. In fact, Mewtwo's rolls are very bad in comparison to just about everyone else.

Bthrow is already a kill throw actually, killing earlier than Uthrow on the ledge. I agree that his throws are fine as is.

You shouldn't really be punishing Mewtwo if he successfully lands a Confusion; that would make it easily the worst move in the game. Just try to reset to neutral.

Mario actually bodies Mewtwo extremely hard--I'm of the opinion he's our worst matchup, and most people here feel he's at least in our top 5 worst. To approach with Mario, try using Bair or cross up his shield with Dair, as Mewtwo's anti-air options are very bad unless he hard reads an Usmash, and his out-of-shield options are even worse than that. If you land with Dair, you can confirm into a grab--where you can get upwards of 70% on Mewtwo quickly. Mario's Usmash will catch Mewtwo's landings, catch his ledge options, and generally make life hell for him.

 

[LRodC]

Although Mewtwo's rolls aren't that great, he has an excellent air dodge. Good Mewtwos should always opt for short hop air dodges instead of rolls except when you want to retreat on the ground faster and in emergencies where you have to stay grounded. I believe it's the best air dodge in the game in terms of invincibility and length, so we should definitely use it to our advantage.

Anyway, yeah, Mario is pretty bad for Mewtwo (as well as most of my other mains...). At least we have one advantage in that our Shadow Ball isn't a death sentence if it's reflected by the cape. However, he gives us hell with his frame data. Luigi and Doc are probably the same way, Doc less so since we outspeed him.

 

[Chiroz]

I don't want to come off as rude here, but alot of these buffs would make Mewtwo incredibly overpowered. I see people asking for his up-throw to kill earlier and his backthrow to become a kill throw...That makes two kill throws, which is absolutely insane.
I played a Mewtwo today who beat me by rolling for 4 minutes and keeping me out (granted, I'm a Mario main), and it was frustrating enough with where he's at now. (1.1.0). His spacing is outstanding with his tilts, his recovery is phenomenal, and his air momentum and air game is also far from bad. His downsmash has a fairly long startup, but it's cooldown is ridiculously quick, and if he gets a side-b on you he gets a free forward smash (unless you jump, in which case he just doesn't get punished). Shield into an upthrow is common if you get too defensive back, and downtilts into fairs are common if you get too aggressive, and a devastating upsmash (that sits out for decades with very strange hitboxes) should ypu attack from above. Mario lacks any reliable approach options on Mewtwo as it is, and I can imagine this being the case for many other characters as well. I used to honestly think Mewtwo needed a weight buff and a frame buff on a few of his moves, but he actually is much better than most people think as of now.
That OR the matchup isn't in Mario's favor--I usually don't like to make excuses for getting outplayed, but it could always be a possibility.

Start using Cross-Up D-Airs and FF landing U-Air more. Landing U-Air basically 100% safe, assures you 40% if you land it and most times if Mewtwo shields you can get a grab out of it.



Honestly I love how you say: "You have to jump a slow startup attack that Mewtwo was already able to land on me because the game doesn't allow me to punish him for reading me!"

Great work. I would say your Mario just needs a lot more training and practice to fight a matchup that's in your advantage.



Apparently Zero said Mewtwo was the worst char, not only that but he said he was the worse by a great margin. Souce: MasterZenyou who was at my house today talked to him at that Low Tier City 3 tourney.

I really love Mewtwo as a char but sometimes I get a bit disheartened of playing a char that's just bad, lol.

 

[RayNoire]

Apparently Zero said Mewtwo was the worst char, not only that but he said he was the worse by a great margin. Souce: MasterZenyou who was at my house today talked to him at that Low Tier City 3 tourney.

I really love Mewtwo as a char but sometimes I get a bit disheartened of playing a char that's just bad, lol.

I hope that's true that he said that; even if I don't necessarily agree (well, on good days I don't anyway lol) the people listen to the man, and the devs listen to the people.

 

[FrankTheStud]

Start using Cross-Up D-Airs and FF landing U-Air more. Landing U-Air basically 100% safe, assures you 40% if you land it and most times if Mewtwo shields you can get a grab out of it.



Honestly I love how you say: "You have to jump a slow startup attack that Mewtwo was already able to land on me because the game doesn't allow me to punish him for reading me!"

Great work. I would say your Mario just needs a lot more training and practice to fight a matchup that's in your advantage.



Apparently Zero said Mewtwo was the worst char, not only that but he said he was the worse by a great margin. Souce: MasterZenyou who was at my house today talked to him at that Low Tier City 3 tourney.

I really love Mewtwo as a char but sometimes I get a bit disheartened of playing a char that's just bad, lol.

I never complained about his side b... I said it was a good move that forced me to reset. I'm just saying that perhaps people who complain about Mewtwo aren't playing him defensively enough and are being careless. Utilt keeps out dair and makes you combo food for utilt strings. I literally tried everything but couldn't find a way in. Bair/nair pressure leads to sideb or shieldgrab, and dair/uair leads into utilt or usmash. Mewtwo is terrifying if he plays defensively, and it makes sense that a glass cannon would do that to avoid unecessary damage. It's interesting that you say Mario is one of Mewtwo's worst matchups when he has the spacing tools to keep Mario out. Once again, I'm familiar with the matchup and I'm a pretty good player--This is just the first time Mewtwo caught me by surprise and left me baffled. (Thanks for the backhanded insult btw--I've been practicing Mario since demo-code and have figured him out quite a bit). All I'm saying is that players don't seem to play Mewtwo defensively enough, which really seems to be where he shines most. I honestly hope the player accepts my friend request because I want to train against his defesive Mewtwo in case I face one at a tournament or even on FG again.

I would argue that DK and Doc are far worse than Mewtwo. Zero said Mewtwo has no statistics, and that nobody plays him in tournament, but that's a whole different discussion.

Edit: Grammar fixes!

 

[Chiroz]

I never complained about his side b... I said it was a good move that forced me to reset. I'm just saying that perhaps people who complain about Mewtwo aren't playing him defensively enough and are being careless. Utilt keeps out dair and makes you combo food for utilt strings. I literally tried everything but couldn't find a way in. Bair/nair pressure leads to sideb or shieldgrab, and dair/uair leads into utilt or usmash. Mewtwo is terrifying if he plays defensively, and it makes sense that a glass cannon would do that to avoid unecessary damage. It's interesting that you say Mario is one of Mewtwo's worst matchups when he has the spacing tools to keep Mario out. Once again, I'm familiar with the matchup and I'm a pretty good player--This is just the first time Mewtwo caught me by surprise and left me baffled. (Thanks for the backhanded insult btw--I've been practicing Mario since demo-code and have figured him out quite a bit). All I'm saying is that players don't seem to play Mewtwo defensively enough, which really seems to be where he shines most. I honestly hope the player accepts my friend request because I want to train against his defesive Mewtwo in case I face one at a tournament or even on FG again.

I would argue that DK and Doc are far worse than Mewtwo. Zero said Mewtwo has no statistics, and that nobody plays him in tournament, but that's a whole different discussion.

Edit: Grammar fixes!

I am not talking about his video. I am talking about a personal conversation someone had with him about which char he thought was the worst overall.



The reason I told you to practice Mario is because you think Mewtwo is a hard matchup for you. Losing to someone is one thing, but thinking it's a bad matchup means you don't understand how your options measure up against his which means that you still need more understanding of either Mario or Mewtwo, or both.

You literally said that you should be able to punish us for landing an attack with long start up, and that you said that you are forced to jump and can't otherwise punish us for it! Omg he read you, you should totally be able to just F-Smash him for being better than you...



The key to beating Mewtwo is to stop trying to B-Air "pressure" and actually B-Air on him. All of Mewtwo's options are slow, his fastest OoS option is grab with 7 frames and it's probably the shortest grab in the game, otherwise he needs at least 13 frames to land any other attack. If you try to space him or pressure him from ranged it won't do as good as just going in.

Mewtwo suffers from lack of options vs offensive pressure. He is also big, has incredibly bad air mobility and has no aerial faster than frame 7 which makes him one of the worst combo foods in the game. You can combo Mewtwo for days and it's hard for him to actually do anything.



I'd be down to play you if you want. I could tell you sort of what you're doing wrong in the matchup, etc.



Note: Just because you lose it doesn't make the other char OP or your counter. Learn to admit faults.

 

[FrankTheStud]

I am not talking about his video. I am talking about a personal conversation someone had with him about which char he thought was the worst overall.



The reason I told you to practice Mario is because you think Mewtwo is a hard matchup for you. Losing to someone is one thing, but thinking it's a bad matchup means you don't understand how your options measure up against his which means that you still need more understanding of either Mario or Mewtwo, or both.

You literally said that you should be able to punish us for landing an attack with long start up, and that you said that you are forced to jump and can't otherwise punish us for it! Omg he read you, you should totally be able to just F-Smash him for being better than you...



The key to beating Mewtwo is to stop trying to B-Air "pressure" and actually B-Air on him. All of Mewtwo's options are slow, his fastest OoS option is grab with 7 frames and it's probably the shortest grab in the game, otherwise he needs at least 13 frames to land any other attack. If you try to space him or pressure him from ranged it won't do as good as just going in.

Mewtwo suffers from lack of options vs offensive pressure. He is also big, has incredibly bad air mobility and has no aerial faster than frame 7 which makes him one of the worst combo foods in the game. You can combo Mewtwo for days and it's hard for him to actually do anything.



I'd be down to play you if you want. I could tell you sort of what you're doing wrong in the matchup, etc.



Note: Just because you lose it doesn't make the other char OP or your counter. Learn to admit faults.

I never said Mewtwo was a hard matchup, I said that this player played him incredibly well and in a way I haven't see before... Are you daft or intentionally reading only what you want to? I mentioned the possibility of it being a bad matchup, and said I usually don't like justifying it that way, because I'm focused on skill...Did you not read what I wrote? I said that Mewtwo has good tools for playing defensively, an his side b is a fairly safe way of forcing someone to reset to neutral and give him the opportunity to punish. I never said he was broken in any way, I just said that, if played right, it's difficult for Mario to actually get in on him because his tools aren't bad whatsoever. Saying "lol actually b air him" isn't helpful, that's like me saying "lol actually play well instead of making excses for why you need buffs." Basically, this isn't giving constructive advice. Once again, I never said that Mewtwo was broken or my counter...I questioned a possibility that I had doubts in myself...So I don't know what you're talking about.
I wouldn't mind playing you to learn more about the defensive matchup, I would just like to recreate the scenario if possible, stage and all to see how I can figure it all out. I saved the replay and watched it several times to see things I did wrong, but I won't feel like I improved until I can battle a Mewtwo as good as him again.

 

[Xzsmmc]

What is it with the big, floaty characters always having these problems, except Rosalina?

If Rosalina didn't have the ability to ignore basic game mechanics and a free immunity to grabs and projectiles 99% of the time, she'd be pretty underwhelming as well. Still better than Zelda or Mewtwo though.

 

[Chiroz]

I never said Mewtwo was a hard matchup, I said that this player played him incredibly well and in a way I haven't see before... Are you daft or intentionally reading only what you want to? I mentioned the possibility of it being a bad matchup, and said I usually don't like justifying it that way, because I'm focused on skill...Did you not read what I wrote? I said that Mewtwo has good tools for playing defensively, an his side b is a fairly safe way of forcing someone to reset to neutral and give him the opportunity to punish. I never said he was broken in any way, I just said that, if played right, it's difficult for Mario to actually get in on him because his tools aren't bad whatsoever. Saying "lol actually b air him" isn't helpful, that's like me saying "lol actually play well instead of making excses for why you need buffs." Basically, this isn't giving constructive advice. Once again, I never said that Mewtwo was broken or my counter...I questioned a possibility that I had doubts in myself...So I don't know what you're talking about.
I wouldn't mind playing you to learn more about the defensive matchup, I would just like to recreate the scenario if possible, stage and all to see how I can figure it all out. I saved the replay and watched it several times to see things I did wrong, but I won't feel like I improved until I can battle a Mewtwo as good as him again.

No, you came in here to explain to us how our character works, insinuating none of us know how to play him correctly yet. Then you go ahead and say that maybe we are right and it's just that Mario has a bad matchup against Mewtwo. You literally left no room for the fact that you just lost to a bad char. It's either "he's not that bad" or "he's good against Mario". It couldn't just be that you got outplayed I guess.



As I said Mewtwo is huge combo food for mostly all of the zonebreakers/rushdown characters, Mario being one of them.

I don't believe Mewtwo to be the worse char in the game, and I think he still has a lot of untapped potential and strategies, but I do believe he's undoubtedly low tier.



Mewtwo's biggest weakness, at least in my own opinion, is that he struggles against offensive play. All of his hardest matches (again in my opinion) are offensive combo-oriented chars like Sheik, ZSS, Mario, Falcon, Fox, etc. He has some other problems in certain MUs like not being able to hit Pikachu and Kirby, but that's not really what we're discussig here.

Basically by the little context you have given me it seems like you were trying to zone out Mewtwo and bait him, like you would another of the offensive approach chars. B-Air wall his approaches, etc. This matchup doesn't work like that, Mewtwo shines when there's a spacing battle since he can space so well. Mewtwo sucks when being attacked full-on having no options to dodge them, no attack to counter them and no mobility to DI them, plus being so big that everything hits him.

 

[FrankTheStud]

No, you came in here to explain to us how our character works, insinuating none of us know how to play him correctly yet. Then you go ahead and say that maybe we are right and it's just that Mario has a bad matchup against Mewtwo. You literally left no room for the fact that you just lost to a bad char. It's either "he's not that bad" or "he's good against Mario". It couldn't just be that you got outplayed I guess.



As I said Mewtwo is huge combo food for mostly all of the zonebreakers/rushdown characters, Mario being one of them.

I don't believe Mewtwo to be the worse char in the game, and I think he still has a lot of untapped potential and strategies, but I do believe he's undoubtedly low tier.



Mewtwo's biggest weakness, at least in my own opinion, is that he struggles against offensive play. All of his hardest matches (again in my opinion) are offensive combo-oriented chars like Sheik, ZSS, Mario, Falcon, Fox, etc. He has some other problems in certain MUs like not being able to hit Pikachu and Kirby, but that's not really what we're discussig here.

Basically by the little context you have given me it seems like you were trying to zone out Mewtwo and bait him, like you would another of the offensive approach chars. B-Air wall his approaches, etc. This matchup doesn't work like that, Mewtwo shines when there's a spacing battle since he can space so well. Mewtwo sucks when being attacked full-on having no options to dodge them, no attack to counter them and no mobility to DI them, plus being so big that everything hits him.

Except I'm not insinuating anything... I'm giving experience and perspective from outside the Mewtwo community. I've never had a problem with Mewtwo until now, and after I lost that match my eyes opened to the potential this character has. I wanted to share my experience here because I thought that maybe someone would find it useful--A player with over 2,500 games played on FG with an 80% win rate is offering his new experience about the matchup. I never said I didn't get outplayed--I've admitted that I DID get outplayed by a DEFENSIVE Mewtwo, and mentioned that he has GREAT TOOLS for playing defensively. It WORKED FOR HIM, so it may WORK FOR YOU, too. I'm offering a possible idea that is different than your "pls buff my low tier pls zero says he's the worst in the game" one.
Sucks when getting attacked full-on but has TWO kill throws, AND side/downb? What are you talking about? I assume you mean keep pressure on him in the air, since he's floaty and has a big hurtbox. I agree that keeping pressure on Mewtwo is vital to success against him, but you can't doubt that his recovery and spacing options are very good, and his tilts are decent combostarters (dtilt into fair is very strong) while in general are also good for keeping pressure off of him. You're doing a good job at restating his weaknesses, which I've acknowledged, but you're having trouble admitting his obvious strengths... Is it YOU who gets outplayed often and can't admit it? Are you projecting? Real quick--Mario is definitely not a rushdown character. Combo char =/= rushdown.

Anyway, do you want to play and help one another with the matchup or just keep finding reasons to be offended for the sake of argument?

 

[RayNoire]

I never complained about his side b... I said it was a good move that forced me to reset. I'm just saying that perhaps people who complain about Mewtwo aren't playing him defensively enough and are being careless. Utilt keeps out dair and makes you combo food for utilt strings. I literally tried everything but couldn't find a way in. Bair/nair pressure leads to sideb or shieldgrab, and dair/uair leads into utilt or usmash. Mewtwo is terrifying if he plays defensively, and it makes sense that a glass cannon would do that to avoid unecessary damage. It's interesting that you say Mario is one of Mewtwo's worst matchups when he has the spacing tools to keep Mario out. Once again, I'm familiar with the matchup and I'm a pretty good player--This is just the first time Mewtwo caught me by surprise and left me baffled. (Thanks for the backhanded insult btw--I've been practicing Mario since demo-code and have figured him out quite a bit). All I'm saying is that players don't seem to play Mewtwo defensively enough, which really seems to be where he shines most. I honestly hope the player accepts my friend request because I want to train against his defesive Mewtwo in case I face one at a tournament or even on FG again.

I would argue that DK and Doc are far worse than Mewtwo. Zero said Mewtwo has no statistics, and that nobody plays him in tournament, but that's a whole different discussion.

Edit: Grammar fixes!

I think I know what the problem may be.

Choice of moves is important, but probably more important is using your mobility to maximize the use of those moves. Mario is one of the best when it comes to air mobility, and that's a big reason why he's so safe.

You mention Bair being shieldgrabbed, but that should pretty much never happen. Mario should not just be thinking about his attack; he should be thinking about his positioning immediately afterward. You could space out Bair, and land safely out of Dtilt range; you could cross up and land on the other side of Mewtwo, making it impossible for to shield grab; or you could double jump after Bair, which has its pros and cons but is safe from shield grabbing at any rate. Just don't fall right in front of him.

You also have to think about your angle of approach. Utilt and Usmash cover full hop approaches very well, but short hop approaches--particularly low short hops like Marios--are much less vulnerable to those moves. If you're SH Dairing and crossing up the shield, Mewtwo should not be punishing you unless he has a read.

I mained Link before Mewtwo came out, and the MU is sort of similar: if we play perfectly, we can win neutral, but it doesn't matter too much when Mario just needs to get through 2-3 times (due to his amazing advantage state combined with our tendency to get combo'd/easily hit with kill moves). The difference is that Link's disadvantage state at high %s is actually really good, he lives forever, and he's just generally a much better character. And STILL that matchup is in Mario's favor.

 

[FrankTheStud]

I think I know what the problem may be.

Choice of moves is important, but probably more important is using your mobility to maximize the use of those moves. Mario is one of the best when it comes to air mobility, and that's a big reason why he's so safe.

You mention Bair being shieldgrabbed, but that should pretty much never happen. Mario should not just be thinking about his attack; he should be thinking about his positioning immediately afterward. You could space out Bair, and land safely out of Dtilt range; you could cross up and land on the other side of Mewtwo, making it impossible for to shield grab; or you could double jump after Bair, which has its pros and cons but is safe from shield grabbing at any rate. Just don't fall right in front of him.

You also have to think about your angle of approach. Utilt and Usmash cover full hop approaches very well, but short hop approaches--particularly low short hops like Marios--are much less vulnerable to those moves. If you're SH Dairing and crossing up the shield, Mewtwo should not be punishing you unless he has a read.

I mained Link before Mewtwo came out, and the MU is sort of similar: if we play perfectly, we can win neutral, but it doesn't matter too much when Mario just needs to get through 2-3 times (due to his amazing advantage state combined with our tendency to get combo'd/easily hit with kill moves). The difference is that Link's disadvantage state at high %s is actually really good, he lives forever, and he's just generally a much better character. And STILL that matchup is in Mario's favor.

Interesting...! I'll take note of this next time I play Mewtwo. It's hard to dair cross while he's at the edge--I don't want to risk being offstage against him because of his spike and dtilt... (I don't want to get gimped!) This player in specific would always roll to the edge (probably to rule out dair cross). He was obviously very skilled in the MU--Better than I was, at least! He would face me at ledge and had great reaction time... Couldn't fireball harass due to side-b, full hop was out because utilt/usmash... Maybe I should've tried short hop into fair to push and pressure his shield into falling off the ledge and FLUDDing him afterwards to have him in the air...?

 

[RayNoire]

Interesting...! I'll take note of this next time I play Mewtwo. It's hard to dair cross while he's at the edge--I don't want to risk being offstage against him because of his spike and dtilt... (I don't want to get gimped!) This player in specific would always roll to the edge (probably to rule out dair cross). He was obviously very skilled in the MU--Better than I was, at least! He would face me at ledge and had great reaction time... Couldn't fireball harass due to side-b, full hop was out because utilt/usmash... Maybe I should've tried short hop into fair to push and pressure his shield into falling off the ledge and FLUDDing him afterwards to have him in the air...?

You can actually still cross up and land on stage even if he's right on the ledge. This happens to me sometimes and it's very annoying. Just watch out for Usmash.

When he's at the ledge, he's in a disadvantageous position. The safest thing to do here is probably just to space out short hop Bairs and pressure his shield, which is very hard for Mewtwo to deal with. There's no single answer that's guaranteed to work, because he can always read you. But Mewtwo doesn't have a lot of options against tight Bair walls, especially on the ledge. His best option is probably just to time a roll away from the ledge (actually the best option is short hop air dodge, but FG Mewtwos aren't going to do that), and Bair ends fast enough that he won't be able to punish you if he rolls, and Mewtwo's roll is slow enough that you might be able to punish him when he does.

 

[FrankTheStud]

You can actually still cross up and land on stage even if he's right on the ledge. This happens to me sometimes and it's very annoying. Just watch out for Usmash.

When he's at the ledge, he's in a disadvantageous position. The safest thing to do here is probably just to space out short hop Bairs and pressure his shield, which is very hard for Mewtwo to deal with. There's no single answer that's guaranteed to work, because he can always read you. But Mewtwo doesn't have a lot of options against tight Bair walls, especially on the ledge. His best option is probably just to time a roll away from the ledge (actually the best option is short hop air dodge, but FG Mewtwos aren't going to do that), and Bair ends fast enough that he won't be able to punish you if he rolls, and Mewtwo's roll is slow enough that you might be able to punish him when he does.

Wow dude!! Thanks for the advice! I'll be sure to take mental notes of all of this!

 

[LRodC]

So I just watched ZeRo's video on Mewtwo. While he's right on all of the buffs that would make him a legitimate tournament threat (he was wrong about up throw being weak, though), I noticed that he failed to mention his shoddy hitboxes and of course he mentioned his weight. I'm glad ZeRo didn't put all of his stock into Mewtwo's weight being the problem, however most of the comments all replied saying that he only needs a weight buff and that's it. It's not just here either, it's a common complaint everywhere.

I feel like a majority of players think that if you buffed Mewtwo's weight, he'd automatically be a good character when it doesn't work that way. He'd be better, yeah, but it isn't that simple. He'd still be significantly flawed when it comes to getting comboed, his hitboxes being shoddy, and his follow up potential being weak without having really strong power to compensate. I'm just worried that people aren't seeing the real flaws with Mewtwo since he isn't played very much. They likely played him when he was released, died to a Marth forward smash at 30% and thought that weight was the only issue with him.

I'm just worried that typical common people that played him once and complained that he was too light are going to drown out the real Mewtwo mains who want more important things to be fixed first. I want Mewtwo (as well as every character) to be competitively viable and pushed to their absolute limit. I don't want people who don't know how to exactly buff him to suggest things that won't really fix him. I do appreciate the complaints though, as it spreads awareness of Mewtwo's lack of viability. Would I appreciate a weight buff? Absolutely. However, given Sakurai's patch history, I don't see it happening. And besides, it's last on my list of wanted Mewtwo buffs.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but does anyone else have similar frustrations? Or am I just being irrational?

 

[FrankTheStud]

So I just watched ZeRo's video on Mewtwo. While he's right on all of the buffs that would make him a legitimate tournament threat (he was wrong about up throw being weak, though), I noticed that he failed to mention his shoddy hitboxes and of course he mentioned his weight. I'm glad ZeRo didn't put all of his stock into Mewtwo's weight being the problem, however most of the comments all replied saying that he only needs a weight buff and that's it. It's not just here either, it's a common complaint everywhere.

I feel like a majority of players think that if you buffed Mewtwo's weight, he'd automatically be a good character when it doesn't work that way. He'd be better, yeah, but it isn't that simple. He'd still be significantly flawed when it comes to getting comboed, his hitboxes being shoddy, and his follow up potential being weak without having really strong power to compensate. I'm just worried that people aren't seeing the real flaws with Mewtwo since he isn't played very much. They likely played him when he was released, died to a Marth forward smash at 30% and thought that weight was the only issue with him.

I'm just worried that typical common people that played him once and complained that he was too light are going to drown out the real Mewtwo mains who want more important things to be fixed first. I want Mewtwo (as well as every character) to be competitively viable and pushed to their absolute limit. I don't want people who don't know how to exactly buff him to suggest things that won't really fix him. I do appreciate the complaints though, as it spreads awareness of Mewtwo's lack of viability. Would I appreciate a weight buff? Absolutely. However, given Sakurai's patch history, I don't see it happening. And besides, it's last on my list of wanted Mewtwo buffs.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but does anyone else have similar frustrations? Or am I just being irrational?

Sakurai just fixed a lot of Wii Fit's hitboxes, so there's hope!

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

So I just watched ZeRo's video on Mewtwo. While he's right on all of the buffs that would make him a legitimate tournament threat (he was wrong about up throw being weak, though), I noticed that he failed to mention his shoddy hitboxes and of course he mentioned his weight. I'm glad ZeRo didn't put all of his stock into Mewtwo's weight being the problem, however most of the comments all replied saying that he only needs a weight buff and that's it. It's not just here either, it's a common complaint everywhere.

I feel like a majority of players think that if you buffed Mewtwo's weight, he'd automatically be a good character when it doesn't work that way. He'd be better, yeah, but it isn't that simple. He'd still be significantly flawed when it comes to getting comboed, his hitboxes being shoddy, and his follow up potential being weak without having really strong power to compensate. I'm just worried that people aren't seeing the real flaws with Mewtwo since he isn't played very much. They likely played him when he was released, died to a Marth forward smash at 30% and thought that weight was the only issue with him.

I'm just worried that typical common people that played him once and complained that he was too light are going to drown out the real Mewtwo mains who want more important things to be fixed first. I want Mewtwo (as well as every character) to be competitively viable and pushed to their absolute limit. I don't want people who don't know how to exactly buff him to suggest things that won't really fix him. I do appreciate the complaints though, as it spreads awareness of Mewtwo's lack of viability. Would I appreciate a weight buff? Absolutely. However, given Sakurai's patch history, I don't see it happening. And besides, it's last on my list of wanted Mewtwo buffs.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but does anyone else have similar frustrations? Or am I just being irrational?

In the last patch, they fixed Meta Knight's hitboxes to match its attack trails. So there is hope that we might get that too in the future.