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List of moves that easily beat Metaknight's neutral B (no longer updating)
- Thread starter Rhyfelwyr
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Pit's only other high priority aerial is the N-air, but that will only work at the beginning or end of the tornado.
I think I remember Luigi's side-B not working head on. If it ever does work, it would have to be because you're high enough to hit the top of MK's head.
gantrain05
Smash Master
well a couple times as ganon i've actually just got sucked into the tornado, but right as it ended if u mash Dair most of the time i get a good thunderstomp off on MK, but other than that, ganon cant really touch meta unfortunately =/
You guys know...
It's nice to know what moves give you a chance in hell but the quick startup of this move and given certain situations just make the PRACTICALITY of beating out the Tornado of a good MK player slim to none. Of course, it will cut back on spam and the move doesn't damage that much (it's more about getting rid of decay and enemy zoning for smart MKers, anyways) so no matter what you're going to find yourself getting chipped away at if you're playing a good MK player. Your true counter to this move is learning how to DI out of it quickly depending on the angle you're sucked into it so you can apply pressure or even punish the MK.
In addition, most of these moves can be worked around if the MK player is good at controlling the Tornado. For example, Toon Links always tried to dair my Tornado, but for that to work they’d have to hit the center top. The left and right “winged edges” of the Tornado are entirely disjointed, per say, and I just make him bounce off those then cut his little brains out a few hundred times (not to mention just stop and punish occasionally).
It's nice to know what moves give you a chance in hell but the quick startup of this move and given certain situations just make the PRACTICALITY of beating out the Tornado of a good MK player slim to none. Of course, it will cut back on spam and the move doesn't damage that much (it's more about getting rid of decay and enemy zoning for smart MKers, anyways) so no matter what you're going to find yourself getting chipped away at if you're playing a good MK player. Your true counter to this move is learning how to DI out of it quickly depending on the angle you're sucked into it so you can apply pressure or even punish the MK.
In addition, most of these moves can be worked around if the MK player is good at controlling the Tornado. For example, Toon Links always tried to dair my Tornado, but for that to work they’d have to hit the center top. The left and right “winged edges” of the Tornado are entirely disjointed, per say, and I just make him bounce off those then cut his little brains out a few hundred times (not to mention just stop and punish occasionally).
I believe the point of a fighting game is that there is no perfect solution to anything.
You're being unfair with your theory because you only give the worst. Toon Link's D-air is the worst example of an attack to use. Lucario's D-air is extremely good against the tornado, watch Azen. And some moves that work wonders against the tornado are Wolf and Falco's blasters.
You said something about DIng out of the tornado. I completely agree, but after that you should do a D-air if possible, something this thread points out.
EDIT: One other thing is you mention the quick start up, but if MK does the tornado next to you, he has considerably less priority, and a whole bunch more moves can hit him.
You're being unfair with your theory because you only give the worst. Toon Link's D-air is the worst example of an attack to use. Lucario's D-air is extremely good against the tornado, watch Azen. And some moves that work wonders against the tornado are Wolf and Falco's blasters.
You said something about DIng out of the tornado. I completely agree, but after that you should do a D-air if possible, something this thread points out.
EDIT: One other thing is you mention the quick start up, but if MK does the tornado next to you, he has considerably less priority, and a whole bunch more moves can hit him.
Are you positive the Tornado gains priority over time instead of loses? I've always come to think the latter because of many experiences - but I haven't actually tested in depth.
Playing MK as a main, I always notice my best Torandos when starting close to the opponent.
Again many dair attacks may work against average MK players but the tornado has too good of a horizontal movement if controlled correctly (takes practice to know the rhythems of pressing B depending on what you want) and one could avoid or use the "disjointed hitboxes" of the "wings" I spoke about above.
Projectiles that beat the Tornado are the only almost-for-sure win, I can agree with that.
Anything beyond is simply MK's error if you hit him. I'm not saying you can't escape it or force him off you in MANY situations, but a good MK should never get punished/damaged at all for a Tornado. Eventually, it'll hit or a chance to sink the "wings" into a player from an angle will net you your damage (or most of it).
Don't get me wrong, I love this thread it helps both pro and anti MK players. It just seems like a lot of ppl I play mention your thread to me bro (OMG I READ THAT THREAD AND...) and they complain they didn't win the situation. They dont realize execution plays the biggest role on both ends.
I get the feeling you might think I'm downing your thread or yourself, Rhy. That's not the case and I have a lot of respect for your Pit. I'm just throwing some light towards the MK players while you discuss the anti-MK means.
Playing MK as a main, I always notice my best Torandos when starting close to the opponent.
Again many dair attacks may work against average MK players but the tornado has too good of a horizontal movement if controlled correctly (takes practice to know the rhythems of pressing B depending on what you want) and one could avoid or use the "disjointed hitboxes" of the "wings" I spoke about above.
Projectiles that beat the Tornado are the only almost-for-sure win, I can agree with that.
Anything beyond is simply MK's error if you hit him. I'm not saying you can't escape it or force him off you in MANY situations, but a good MK should never get punished/damaged at all for a Tornado. Eventually, it'll hit or a chance to sink the "wings" into a player from an angle will net you your damage (or most of it).
Don't get me wrong, I love this thread it helps both pro and anti MK players. It just seems like a lot of ppl I play mention your thread to me bro (OMG I READ THAT THREAD AND...) and they complain they didn't win the situation. They dont realize execution plays the biggest role on both ends.
I get the feeling you might think I'm downing your thread or yourself, Rhy. That's not the case and I have a lot of respect for your Pit. I'm just throwing some light towards the MK players while you discuss the anti-MK means.
I have to apologize, I was being defensive with my response.
I know this list doesn't completely defeat the tornado, or make it at all easy. It's like you said, based largely on execution.
Now, there are some D-airs that work instantly, and thus the outcome is outside of Meta Knight's hands. Again, I mention Lucario. Luigi was another notable one, also Metaknight. I'm sure there were others.
There are many other moves besides projectiles that work very well. These are ones I consider the best:
Bowser – F-tilt
Ice Climbers – Down-B
Donkey Kong – F-tilt
Kirby – F-smash
Mario – D-air
Sheik – N-air
Metaknight's tornado definitely goes up and down in priority. The start is low, middle high, and ends low. The tornado is still a disjointed hitbox, which could account for seeing it beat other moves.
Also, the low priority start and ending timespans, are shorter compared to the high priority middle.
I know this list doesn't completely defeat the tornado, or make it at all easy. It's like you said, based largely on execution.
Now, there are some D-airs that work instantly, and thus the outcome is outside of Meta Knight's hands. Again, I mention Lucario. Luigi was another notable one, also Metaknight. I'm sure there were others.
There are many other moves besides projectiles that work very well. These are ones I consider the best:
Bowser – F-tilt
Ice Climbers – Down-B
Donkey Kong – F-tilt
Kirby – F-smash
Mario – D-air
Sheik – N-air
Metaknight's tornado definitely goes up and down in priority. The start is low, middle high, and ends low. The tornado is still a disjointed hitbox, which could account for seeing it beat other moves.
Also, the low priority start and ending timespans, are shorter compared to the high priority middle.
Shame to the MK who attemps to poke in with the Tornado when a counter-move situation is easily ready by the target.
As far as the Tornados priority, I guess it would be who of me to do some in depth testing. Respecting your gameplay as much as myself, to think the Tornado has a priority pattern of low, high, low doesn't always make sense to me right now. I've spoke about this before, but a "fresh" Tornado will beat out another MK's tornado no matter if it's near start, middle or end - in my "during a match" experience. I'll hit training up tonight so I can know for sure. Your method would definately make anti-tornado strats good.
All in all, the Tornado starts so quick and is easily transferred momentum a MK could throw one on you unexpectedly. I've always thought about it like you never know when Ike/Marth is going to 'randomly' counter. MK kind of the same, only safer.
The enemy isn't always in neutral stance and ready for it. It's good to break down it's priority levels, what moves in what situations beat it out, and how to properly DI from it... but one thing we can all agree on is the developers were smoking something when they made this move.
As far as the Tornados priority, I guess it would be who of me to do some in depth testing. Respecting your gameplay as much as myself, to think the Tornado has a priority pattern of low, high, low doesn't always make sense to me right now. I've spoke about this before, but a "fresh" Tornado will beat out another MK's tornado no matter if it's near start, middle or end - in my "during a match" experience. I'll hit training up tonight so I can know for sure. Your method would definately make anti-tornado strats good.
All in all, the Tornado starts so quick and is easily transferred momentum a MK could throw one on you unexpectedly. I've always thought about it like you never know when Ike/Marth is going to 'randomly' counter. MK kind of the same, only safer.
The enemy isn't always in neutral stance and ready for it. It's good to break down it's priority levels, what moves in what situations beat it out, and how to properly DI from it... but one thing we can all agree on is the developers were smoking something when they made this move.
If Metaknight can't poke with it any more, then that means the move isn't safe any more either.
Tornado versus tornado is an odd scenario. It somewhat depends on the compared speed of the B mashing, and the location of the curved disjointed hitboxes crossing each other.
But the tornado I assure you does have rising and lowering priority. During the hours of testing I did on the list, I noticed some attacks always work during the beggining or end of the tornado, but never the middle.
The moves I mentioned which work really well, are also used very offensively. Mario and Sheik's aerials are used for combos, and DK's and Bowser's F-tilts are used for spacing.
Another use about some D-airs being instantaneous, is that you can use them when you DI out.
Yes, I agree the move is unfair. I don't know how they didn't think it was balance issue.
Browny
Smash Hater
watching many lucario vids ive noticed a lot of his moves do this.
His f-air, b-air, ftilt, dtilt, fsmash all go through the tornado. Also you might wanna add, aura sphere goes through MK even uncharged as lucario gets stronger. by the time lucario is max power even an ncharged aura sphere goes right through the tornado and hurts MK.
also im quite sure sonics b-air and side b go through it. the short hop on his side b goes through everything, so tornado is no exception. and his b-air CAN kick mk out of it, but only if the very tip of the foot hits, just like a marth tipper.
His f-air, b-air, ftilt, dtilt, fsmash all go through the tornado. Also you might wanna add, aura sphere goes through MK even uncharged as lucario gets stronger. by the time lucario is max power even an ncharged aura sphere goes right through the tornado and hurts MK.
also im quite sure sonics b-air and side b go through it. the short hop on his side b goes through everything, so tornado is no exception. and his b-air CAN kick mk out of it, but only if the very tip of the foot hits, just like a marth tipper.
Master Raven
Smash Master
Pardon if this hasn't been said yet, but ROB's gyro top can break Mach Tornado.
TengenToppaDrill
Smash Apprentice
This will help quite a bit. Thanks for compiling all the information together.
CSTIK
Smash Cadet
Lucario's forward smash seems to hit through, but it is not listed.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Dk's down-B hits through, as does fully charged neutral b.
Bug~
Smash Ace
Lucario's Fsmash goes right through it for a deadly attack.
Lucario just needs to charge the aurasphere for like 0.01 seconds for it to cancel out the tornado.
Lucario just needs to charge the aurasphere for like 0.01 seconds for it to cancel out the tornado.
metaknightp0wns
Smash Apprentice
i think dk's up b and fullycharged neutral b both out prioritize mks neutral b
dguy6789
Smash Lord
Add Lucario's fsmash and his nair to the list.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Agreed, and his sideB.
jojodasmurf
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2008
- Messages
- 2
I have not yet seen it done, but my friend who mains kirby tells me that kirbys grab will get through MKs tornado
I should clarify what this list is about.
This is not a list of every move that goes through the tornado. The purpose of this list is to show the best options for each character to counter the tornado if they see it coming.
I'll check the moves that have been suggested, but please understand if I don't add them.
This is not a list of every move that goes through the tornado. The purpose of this list is to show the best options for each character to counter the tornado if they see it coming.
I'll check the moves that have been suggested, but please understand if I don't add them.
JrdnS
Smash Ace
i get so frustrated because my friend mains wolf. and when ever i try to use my tornado a blast of green laser is coming at my face.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
gantrain05
Smash Master
dunno if its been said, but ness Fair goes thru it, its a life saver to a ness player lol.
smaci92
Smash Lord
Oh thank goodness! It's about time someone made a thread like this! I hate metaknights tornado...especially people who spam it!
ShaolinAce
Smash Ace
Whats worse is peaple who wine about the tornado when they can effectvly find out the things on this thread on thier own.
infamousGK
Smash Apprentice
Doesn't G&W's chair (ftilt) go through it as well as the turtle?
Dynomite
Smash Champion
i hear that jigly's neutral b roll out goes through MK's tornado.
Affinity
Smash Hero
Crizthakidd
Smash Champion
pretty nice guide. ill know when to do it or not.
also my friends lucario likes to stomp is d-air. but my tonado always catches him. is it his bad timing or what? it hasnt knocked me outa the nado so far
also my friends lucario likes to stomp is d-air. but my tonado always catches him. is it his bad timing or what? it hasnt knocked me outa the nado so far
Affinity
Smash Hero
Yeah, its his timing. All D-airs can take out the tornado.
mach tornado is mainly for countering thunder jolt, throwing (unexploding) items and anything chargable projectile that is un-charged.
I use it for getting multiple people attacked.
if you don't want your head attacked, use an up-ward drill rush, thats what its there for.
I also believe that the tornado has a hitbox that brings enimies to the damaging hitbox.
I use it for getting multiple people attacked.
if you don't want your head attacked, use an up-ward drill rush, thats what its there for.
I also believe that the tornado has a hitbox that brings enimies to the damaging hitbox.
thesage
Smash Hero
That is by far the worst advice I've ever heard about MK >_>; Do the exact opposite of that stuff.
I just attempted to use Pit's Dair against a Meta Knight who spammed neutral B and it didn't seem to work. Pit's dair comes from one side and ends on the other, which meant I saw the attack clash animation (blue pinging circle that disappears quickly), and my dair ended but Meta Knight's tornado kept on going and caught me. Also, my Ftilt is not working so well . Maybe it's too slow, but I haven't managed to break the Tornado with it.
. Maybe it's too slow, but I haven't managed to break the Tornado with it.ShaolinAce
Smash Ace
I bet more non MK users are looking at this topic than us MK users >_> It is good to know what shuts it down but I hardly ever spam it unless my opponant is wide open asking for it.
Metal_Dave
Smash Journeyman
This is a pretty good old thread and I think it should get a nice bump up. But it needs some updating as some moves are missing in the list.
It should be noted... Sonic's fsmash is actually really good at out prioritizing tornado when aimed upward. Probobly less important, a well placed bair from sonic can out priority MK's nado, and so can a well timed Usmash.
also there is a move of sonics called ASC that does an extremely good job at beating tornado, especially if it comes in from above.
*just as an explanation for those of you who don't already know: ASC = Aerial Spin Charge.
ASC is when sonic uses down B in the air, and holding forward helps the moves priority.
also there is a move of sonics called ASC that does an extremely good job at beating tornado, especially if it comes in from above.
*just as an explanation for those of you who don't already know: ASC = Aerial Spin Charge.
ASC is when sonic uses down B in the air, and holding forward helps the moves priority.
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