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Links to the Past - A P:M Link video & discussion thread

NickRiddle

NickRiddle

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BryE

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NickRiddle said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyvzfTMaXKo
Game 1 I use Link vs. Hungrybox's Mario. I have a little MU exp, but knowing a little more will make it so I don't have to use Bowser next time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yvKv6TI6lk
I have pretty much 0 exp vs. MK, and Plup is a little amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6tBZc7PFi8
Used Link game 1 vs. Wizzrobe. Absolutely never played a good Sonic before. 2fast4me
Click to expand...

Was actually watching your match against wizzy recently. Close matches. lol
 
Player -0

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NickRiddle said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyvzfTMaXKo
Game 1 I use Link vs. Hungrybox's Mario. I have a little MU exp, but knowing a little more will make it so I don't have to use Bowser next time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yvKv6TI6lk
I have pretty much 0 exp vs. MK, and Plup is a little amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6tBZc7PFi8
Used Link game 1 vs. Wizzrobe. Absolutely never played a good Sonic before. 2fast4me
Click to expand...
Watched vs. Sonic.

It looks like you just need to abuse Nair vs. Sonic and stay low key on projectile unless cutting off where he can approach.
 
BryE

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SoggyEagle

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EmptySky00 said:
Advice asking I guess.

Link vs Mario
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Juqt13Fuwgw

Link vs Fox
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7Tlz-6O6_A

Especially against Fox. I've no Spacie experience at all. I think the main issue is that I'm not good at handling pressure. Turns out, Fox can put pressure on kind of well.
Click to expand...

Against Mario, you seem to surrender and abandon center position too eagerly and 'expect' rather than 'react to' your opponents DI when he starts tumbling in the air while you are interested in following.
Further, you don't always have to chase -- Link's grounded options against airborne opponents tend to be wider/better -- judgment call, obviously, but keep it in mind.

I'd encourage you to rewatch the video, and every time you chase Mario for a combo follow up, consider whether it would have been better to stay middle/center or grounded on the side platform/ what you could have done instead of whiffing some aerials.

I have limited Fox experience, myself, as no one in my local group plays Fox; however, I'd encourage you to remember that center stage control gives you options while restricting your opponent's. Fox is still combo food, so as long as you can limit his mobility by zone control (spacing is not as strong an option due to the speed differential, but keep that in mind, too) and purposefully putting hitboxes in places, a lot of Fox players aren't too challenging.
 
E

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SoggyEagle said:
Against Mario, you seem to surrender and abandon center position too eagerly and 'expect' rather than 'react to' your opponents DI when he starts tumbling in the air while you are interested in following.
Further, you don't always have to chase -- Link's grounded options against airborne opponents tend to be wider/better -- judgment call, obviously, but keep it in mind.

I'd encourage you to rewatch the video, and every time you chase Mario for a combo follow up, consider whether it would have been better to stay middle/center or grounded on the side platform/ what you could have done instead of whiffing some aerials.

I have limited Fox experience, myself, as no one in my local group plays Fox; however, I'd encourage you to remember that center stage control gives you options while restricting your opponent's. Fox is still combo food, so as long as you can limit his mobility by zone control (spacing is not as strong an option due to the speed differential, but keep that in mind, too) and purposefully putting hitboxes in places, a lot of Fox players aren't too challenging.
Click to expand...
Alright. I'll focus on controlling the center of the stage. I tried it and I was taking multiple stocks with only 16% damage. But then he said he was playing bad and he wasn't feeling it that day. I feel that way all the time so it's taken into consideration. But regardless.
 
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Fenrir VII

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I really, really like the Fox matchup, honestly.

Cons:
-he can waveshine you into grab, usmash, whatever (can kind of be CC'ed, but it's not always helpful)
-he's one of the better edgeguarders in the game
-usmash or uthrow uair starts killing Link around 100% (ouch)
-he's fast enough to punish any mistakes

Pros:
-Despite popular belief, he should have a heck of a hard time approaching you. Fox does have issues with lasting/ranged/disjointed attacks, which is most of Link's moveset. Boomerang, pivot grab, and zair (mixed with jab jab, of course) are surprisingly effective at stuffing a horizontal recovery, then utilt or usmash stuff ALL of Fox's attacks from above.

-He really can't outcamp you very well, because Link has long range projectiles with little cooldown, so he can make most of the stage unsafe for laser camping... also, reflector really isn't great against Link's projectiles for a variety of reasons.

-Theoretically, 1 hit from Link = death for Fox... Now I know... I know this is true for a bunch of chars, but it's actually pretty attainable with Link. Link can adaptively tech-chase him on reaction with grab... uthrow gives amazing combos into utilt > whatever. dthrow forces a fall-down/tech-chase chance at any time before like 100%, and combos into kill moves after that.

-The sheer number of available GOOD combos on Fox is huge and adaptive to practically any stage. Also, dash attack combos into upB or Dair (% dependent) at kill %... considering how universal DA is, this is huge. My thoughts when playing this matchup: "holy wow, everything connects to everything"

-SH Nair offstage > double-jump nair stuffs all of Fox's recovery options with proper spacing (unless he goes really high, in which case, you can see that before committing)

-Link's recovery is MUCH better than in Melee (in terms of distance, adaptability, and priority), so shine spikes are less of a threat (although you should still be careful). Fox doesn't have a safe way to edgeguard tether, if you mix it up with cancels (if he goes for a shine spike, and eats the weakhits from upB, suddenly YOU are edgeguarding HIM)

-You can SDI the first hit of the Fox uair to miss the killing move (tested with double-stick DI and works)

-Essentially, the neutral game is not as one-sided as it probably should be (Fox still has a slight advantage), but with proper play, I just feel that Link kills Fox much more effectively overall than Fox kills Link.


Now, despite speaking to Link mains, I am not saying this is horribly in Link's favor or anything... it's not. Fox is good and hard to beat. but honestly, I do put this in Link's favor... probably around the 55-45 or 60-40 range. This is a...different view of the match than most people have, but it's been backed up by high-level Links beating high-level Foxes recently.

Practically everything above applies to the Falco matchup too. The main differences being that Falco actually can camp you and approach a bit easier (although you can still deal with it... particularly if you can powershield), but CC is MUCH more effective, and he is worse at killing Link than Fox is, while Falco is easier to kill for Link.

* spoken as a Fox and Link player. : ) *
 
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Nemiak temp

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Fenrir VII said:
I really, really like the Fox matchup, honestly.

Cons:
-he can waveshine you into grab, usmash, whatever (can kind of be CC'ed, but it's not always helpful)
-he's one of the better edgeguarders in the game
-usmash or uthrow uair starts killing Link around 100% (ouch)
-he's fast enough to punish any mistakes

Pros:
-Despite popular belief, he should have a heck of a hard time approaching you. Fox does have issues with lasting/ranged/disjointed attacks, which is most of Link's moveset. Boomerang, pivot grab, and zair (mixed with jab jab, of course) are surprisingly effective at stuffing a horizontal recovery, then utilt or usmash stuff ALL of Fox's attacks from above.

-He really can't outcamp you very well, because Link has long range projectiles with little cooldown, so he can make most of the stage unsafe for laser camping... also, reflector really isn't great against Link's projectiles for a variety of reasons.

-Theoretically, 1 hit from Link = death for Fox... Now I know... I know this is true for a bunch of chars, but it's actually pretty attainable with Link. Link can adaptively tech-chase him on reaction with grab... uthrow gives amazing combos into utilt > whatever. dthrow forces a fall-down/tech-chase chance at any time before like 100%, and combos into kill moves after that.

-The sheer number of available GOOD combos on Fox is huge and adaptive to practically any stage. Also, dash attack combos into upB or Dair (% dependent) at kill %... considering how universal DA is, this is huge. My thoughts when playing this matchup: "holy wow, everything connects to everything"

-SH Nair offstage > double-jump nair stuffs all of Fox's recovery options with proper spacing (unless he goes really high, in which case, you can see that before committing)

-Link's recovery is MUCH better than in Melee (in terms of distance, adaptability, and priority), so shine spikes are less of a threat (although you should still be careful). Fox doesn't have a safe way to edgeguard tether, if you mix it up with cancels (if he goes for a shine spike, and eats the weakhits from upB, suddenly YOU are edgeguarding HIM)

-You can SDI the first hit of the Fox uair to miss the killing move (tested with double-stick DI and works)

-Essentially, the neutral game is not as one-sided as it probably should be (Fox still has a slight advantage), but with proper play, I just feel that Link kills Fox much more effectively overall than Fox kills Link.


Now, despite speaking to Link mains, I am not saying this is horribly in Link's favor or anything... it's not. Fox is good and hard to beat. but honestly, I do put this in Link's favor... probably around the 55-45 or 60-40 range. This is a...different view of the match than most people have, but it's been backed up by high-level Links beating high-level Foxes recently.

Practically everything above applies to the Falco matchup too. The main differences being that Falco actually can camp you and approach a bit easier (although you can still deal with it... particularly if you can powershield), but CC is MUCH more effective, and he is worse at killing Link than Fox is, while Falco is easier to kill for Link.

* spoken as a Fox and Link player. : ) *
Click to expand...
Well said. I play with Wolf just about daily and both of us play Link/Fox (him more link and me more fox). As fox it feels like I'm fighting sheik in this matchup but with HUGE angled fat needles and I can punish link a little harder than sheik just because of his lag. One thing Fox can do to deal with tether cancel is just ledge stall, it's safe (invincible LOL) but hard. Whenever Wolf is recovering from an angle he needs to tether from I just ledgestall with shine-upb until he commits to the up-b or reels the tether in and then I get a free shine or bair. Tether cancel is kind of overrated IMO. It gave me a little bit of trouble until I realized "Oh, he still has to do something eventually I'm just gonna hang out on this ledge." Gotta play super patient against a good Link and pick your spots carefully, this matchup is nowhere near as free for the Spacies as a lot of players claim.
 
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Fenrir VII

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Nemiak temp said:
Well said. I play with Wolf just about daily and both of us play Link/Fox (him more link and me more fox). As fox it feels like I'm fighting sheik in this matchup but with HUGE angled fat needles and I can punish link a little harder than sheik just because of his lag. One thing Fox can do to deal with tether cancel is just ledge stall, it's safe (invincible LOL) but hard. Whenever Wolf is recovering from an angle he needs to tether from I just ledgestall with shine-upb until he commits to the up-b or reels the tether in and then I get a free shine or bair. Tether cancel is kind of overrated IMO. It gave me a little bit of trouble until I realized "Oh, he still has to do something eventually I'm just gonna hang out on this ledge." Gotta play super patient against a good Link and pick your spots carefully, this matchup is nowhere near as free for the Spacies as a lot of players claim.
Click to expand...
Sure. That's fair. Fox is a great, adaptive edgeguarder and that's definitely something that helps him in the match (and every other match lawl). He doesn't get the free kills that he used to, at least. Fox really has to WORK to have a shot in the matchup.

Probably at the end of the day, a top Fox vs a top Link (if the metagame were established) would be an incredibly even match, but a mid-level Link will trounce a mid-level Fox.

... It bothers me when people theorycraft that
Fox >> Link, because the matchup just doesn't play that way.
 
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Nemiak temp

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Dash attack is mega punishable though. I think Jab is much better for shutting down sh approaches.
 
Hylian

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NickRiddle said:
Dash attach cannot be punished if it hits.
Click to expand...
It can be punished when CC'd. You can DA a CC'ing DK and then get 0-death combo'd from him grabbing you.
 
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NickRiddle

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Sorry, when I say a move is good against SH Aerial characters, I assume they're doing said action, not standing there.
 
Hylian

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NickRiddle said:
Sorry, when I say a move is good against SH Aerial characters, I assume they're doing said action, not standing there.
Click to expand...
DA fox at 0% in the air he can tech and punish before your move finished :D
 
Nemiak temp

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Or fox can dash dance and punish when you DA too early. Idk jab is safer and can lead to grab or up b, both of which are in most cases more rewarding than a dash attack.
 
Fenrir VII

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Can we just stop arguing and all agree that arrows single-handedly wreck Fox and are really the best option in any scenario?
 
Nemiak temp

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Hate me if you want. I was simply suggesting you try jab to shut down approaches instead of DA because you can't punish a spaced jab. Sorry you're link is too dumb, unsafe, and jank to bother trying more effective techniques, your loss
 
NickRiddle

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When you beat a Fox better than Colbol you can come talk to me about how what you do is more effective.

Though, Fenrir is right. They should nerf arrows next patch; they're a little too strong.
 
ITALIAN N1NJA

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I just faced a ROB main that is a good player. I have no clue what the matchup is. Does anyone have tips for the matchup of Link vs. ROB? I did happen to notice that ROB's dash attack is good and his hot boxes are very odd to say the least. I also noticed that ROB's lasers and beyblade(spin top) can block out a lot of Link's bomb options. Also, ROB's Up-Air seems to beat Link's D-air and looped very easily to a combo leading offstage.
 
Nemiak temp

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Lmao Does Colbol even play PM? I never tried to start anything here but now that it's started god damn Nick Riddle is ass.
 
ITALIAN N1NJA

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cmloe said:
Does anyone have any tips on the link vs falcon match up?
Click to expand...
Wall him off with projectiles. When he goes for a Down-b or Side-b on stage to try for a mix up, just grab him out of it. Once grabbed, use Up-tilt(looped) and then maybe a F-air or an Up-air. Use your tilts to keep him out. If he gets in he will combo you hard. Once falcon is off the stage, use projectiles or do a grounded Up-b to bonk him if he misses the ledge sweet spot. The matchup is in Link's favor as long as you don't allow him to get in.
 
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SoggyEagle

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So, does Marth just beat Link or is there hope? Seems to me that Marth clearly has the matchup in his favor... I'll post videos of some match ups after the stream manager posts them.
 
Fenrir VII

Fenrir VII

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SoggyEagle said:
So, does Marth just beat Link or is there hope? Seems to me that Marth clearly has the matchup in his favor... I'll post videos of some match ups after the stream manager posts them.
Click to expand...
Nah link wins it imo. Just gotta avoid that grab.
 
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