Link's Match-up Thread: Ryu would like an answer to a question.

[Rizen]

^DDD's is the size of Alaska.
Tether grabs suck.

Edit response:

Tether grabs aren't very big but they have 2 grab-bubbles. The one at the claw moves forwards only catching grounded opponents and the bubble at Link's hand stays in place for the 8 frames of effect and grabs out of the air too. That's why characters can dodge it so easily.

 

[Huggles828]

Link's is the size of the USSR, but is slowed by government overregulation before it can come out, and must be fully documented and detailed in duplicate if it misses.

 

[Anonymous24]

Link's is the size of the USSR, but is slowed by government overregulation before it can come out, and must be fully documented and detailed in duplicate if it misses.

lol Good comparison

 

[Toby.]

I was supposed to play a bunch of solo pokemon matches against Scabe so he could get a feel for the matchup in depth, but then he decided to play smash 64.

 

[Scabe]

I totally regret not playing you. Smash 64 sucked, only because it felt so much different to the one I have on virtual console.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If it's any consolation, this is an MU Link would rather run into rather than a few other MU's.

I've played against Buuda and a few other PT's so I know this MU pretty well.

Squirtle does in fact beat Link pretty badly, Link can't wall someone who has that kind of air movement. Still I feel like Squirtle could be more manageable in the future if people can figure out a trick of sorts to hamper his approaches a bit better. Still watergun KO's make me cry, ;_;.

Ivysaur imo is being underated, she has quite a few tools that can make it hard for Link to do his thing. Bair zoning with Ivysaur is hard for Link to move through and razor leaf can force Link to work out other methods to camp.

Charizard is not DDD, he's more akin to Bowser in the don't get grabbed area. In that same sense you can zone Zard pretty well with Zair and bombs are going to make him think twice about using flamethrower to approach/camp.

Pretty much that is the general jist of what I understand from playing against PT mains.

 

[Thunder Of Zeus]

Might I suggest that we approach this differently?

I think that we should make a Squirtle MU, Ivysaur MU, and Charizard MU. That way, we have detailed information on all three, more focused discussion, and the same effect as discussing all three at once.

Just a suggestion.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Might I suggest that we approach this differently?

I think that we should make a Squirtle MU, Ivysaur MU, and Charizard MU. That way, we have detailed information on all three, more focused discussion, and the same effect as discussing all three at once.

Just a suggestion.

I approve of this idea.

So focus on Squirtle, then Ivysaur, then Charizard.

 

[Toby.]

Squirtle's water gun cancels out arrows/boomerang and pushes bombs back towards you.

Up close he has multiple moves that outspeed everything you've got, and can fthrow chain grab you off stage at very low percents.

Fun times.

 

[Metro Knight]

Yea Squirtle squirtle is a *****. utilt/bair chains, dthrow/dair can kill... etc...

if you can shield pressure him, try to poke with the dair, it works surprisingly well at times.

 

[Scabe]

Squirtle is amazingly fast, his air movement is ridiculous, and alot of his aerials and tilts have quick have quick startup and end lag. I usually cannot land a grab on him.

I find that his size and speed makes Link's Zair very hard to use and it makes his spam game problematic. He can quickly get into Link's zone and wreck him.

If you manage to get him offstage try and hit him with the set knockback of Gale Boomerang, that should push Squirtle a little bit back so you can either gimp him with Nair or hit him with Dair or ledge grab.

I'm thinking Battlefield might be a good stage against Squirtle since it sorta prevents his full hop approaches, and this lets you use Zair to keep away his short hop aerial approaches.

I wish I got to play Toby's PT after I talked to him so we could get matchup knowledge on this. Soz guys

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The main problem I have against squirtle is his approaches in the air. I can't time utilt correctly to knock him away, his air speed just makes it annoying.

Hydroplaning is a great mindgame, but they shouldn't spam it, pretty sure if you pay attention to their movement you can jab, quick draw an arrow, or even grab them if they approach with it.

If they approach from the air Link's job is going to suck.

Let's talk about Ivysaur, what about her?

 

[Metro Knight]

If you aren't at too high of percentage you can totally recover if he hits you with his tether recovery when you are ledge guarding. I think Ivysaur is definitely our easiest match-up next to Ganon.

 

[Huggles828]

I think Ivysaur is similar to Link (and to some extent Sonic and Yoshi) in that Ivysaur is awful unless played at a high level, and is hard to just pick up and play well as. So I've never seen a well played Ivysaur (he was easily my roommate's worst character of the three). Nothing I've seen suggests Ivysaur is very good (although he does pack a solid punch with lots of strong hits), but then again, I doubt most people have seen a good Link either, so I guess it'd be hasty to say "lawl Ivy sucks Link wins," especially since some of the PT people seem to think Ivysaur does well against Link. Does anyone have videos of a well played Ivysaur?

Also, I agree Ivysaur's B up is not as big a deal since we can re-grab the edge with the hookshot, but our bad recovery means if we get hit we'll probably get stage spiked earlier than other characters on levels like Final Destination and Battlefield.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Go for Charizard.

Also match-up ratios for all three and a total for Pokemon trainer.

Imo:
Squirtle 65:35 Link
Ivysaur 5:5 Link
Charizard 5:5 Link

Grand total:
4:6 Pokemon trainer

 

[Anonymous24]

I think Ivysaur is similar to Link (and to some extent Sonic and Yoshi) in that Ivysaur is awful unless played at a high level, and is hard to just pick up and play well as. So I've never seen a well played Ivysaur

I agree on that part. But I find Ivysaur more easier to master then link in my opinion. For link theres alot more to know and understand about than Ivysaur such as bombslide/glidetoss, Zair edgeguarding etc etc. If you want to play someones whos very good at Ivysaur try Prometheus.

 

[Buuda]

Okay, guys, I'm feeling generous. Red Ryu, you're probably going to **** me over with this at next tourney. lol.

As far as Squirtle goes, you need to CAMP, CAMP, CAMP, especially boms can be a huge hinderance. Also, abuse the crap out of your disjointed hitboxes, because though Squirtle's aerials may be fantastic, their range is not that great. You have to space really well, and make sure you're on your toes against Squirtle's ridiculous mobility. Do not EVER stop spamming your projectiles, because myself and other PTs (I'm not sure how much other people do this....) love Hydroplane moves, and I will be on the complete opposite side of FD one second, and the next you'll find yourself either in the air from a U-smash, going off the stage from a D-smash (in which case you will be f-air'd and Water-gun'd to death), or grabbed, and thrown off the stage, in which case you are again screwed by being off-stage. Do keep in mind that your recovery will beat Squirtle's aerials, though, so there is hope. lol.

With Ivysaur, I dunno. Just win. He kinda sucks. Ryu is right in saying that yeah, Ivy's b-air does space pretty well, but as long as you keep up the camping, Ivysaur is helpless because all he can do is bait approaches with Razor Leaf, which gets killed by Link's everything. X_X

As far as Charizard goes, keep him at mid-long range. The longer the better, but you really have to mindgame Zard because he outranges Link in most moves if I'm not mistaken, so just make sure you keep spamming to shut down his approach. Watch out for flamethrower, because Link's weight will make it significantly more difficult to get out. And again, be really careful about getting gimped. Between Charizard's grab range, ground speed, multiple jumps, and ridiculous knockback on the sweet parts of his F-air, you can find yourself in a situation where you'll be pulling your hair out because you keep missing the ledge from Charizard aerially beating the crap out of you.

I hope this helps?

In summary, I'd say this:

60:40 Squirtle
35:65 Link
55:45 Charizard

So overall.... 55:45 PT I'd say. I wouldn't go as far as to say 60:40 unless you play the matchup poorly.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's a great help, thx Buuda I'll raoe ya next curly with these tips, lol /jk.

Also I listed my ratio above wrong, I had squirtle vs Link as Link's favor, lol.

Anyways for the next discussion people can decide on,

Zero Suit Samus, Olimar, Diddy Kong, Ness

 

[Scabe]

I vote for Naked Suit Samus.

I play that matchup quite often, but I doubt I'll have anything useful to add as usual though

 

[Rizen]

I thought we did Ness.

 

[Anonymous24]

I vote for Naked Suit Samus.

I play that matchup quite often, but I doubt I'll have anything useful to add as usual though

lol

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

MES is right we did do Ness, lol.

Well lets get the naked ladies over here.

Zero Suit Samus is a gogo.

 

[zApollo]

I vote for Naked Suit Samus.

I play that matchup quite often, but I doubt I'll have anything useful to add as usual though

Well link does have good walling against ZSS, his projectile gaming can limit ZSS's comfortable approaches.

In general, Link has a great ground game which easily outshines ZSS, her best options are getting you guys into the air.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think that at the highest level this match-up is dead even.

Link's projectile game really annoys ZSS who has trouble dealing with projectile walls in the first place (she has no aerial option to cover the spot below her in the air, which means she can't really beat that kind of camping). She can PS each projectile of course, but good Link players will line their projectiles up so two or three hit at the same time, rather than letting them sprinkle in.

Link's recovery is pretty bad, but ZSS only has a few gimmicks that take advantage of that and she can't really reliably gimp him offstage. Back air (her primary sideways gimp) gets beaten hard by Link's up+b and none of the rest of her moves are really fast enough to beat it in terms of speed. In general, Link should be making it back to the stage using Gale Boomerang and other techniques unless he's knocked off of it at an angle that he can't really recover from. The only way I've ever really done this is by dash attack locking Link to the edge of the stage and finishing it with a down-angled ftilt. This is pretty much a guaranteed gimp on Link, but only has a small percentage window (from about 35% until 50%) to perform it.

In general, ZSS' mid-range spacing game is not very good vs. Link's long-range projectiles and her ground game pales in comparison. Once Link is in the air, however, he is meat. He's heavy and pretty big, making him kind of an easy juggle and ZSS' up air beats Link's down air hard (note that this is easliy misspaced and risky for ZSS but we have to consider that the ZSS player has mastered her spacing and won't be messing up). Link's zair however makes ZSS' ground approaches difficult, forcing her to play more creatively in order to pop Link up where she has the advantage. Her best ground move in this match-up is downtilt, which is very good at beating Link's ground game.

Zero Suit Samus has a chain grab on Link, but the window isn't very big and it's only two throws and a regrab. She also can't really use this to gimp him, so it isn't a huge worry.

Out of shield is where ZSS really suffers here. Because Link's ground attacks are disjointed, his well-spaced jabs and pokes out-range her best OOS option (utilt) and she doesn't have a shieldgrab. Oftentimes her only real option is to jump, which is very predictable and easily punished with a hard-hitting aerial. To really exploit this weakness, it is recommended that you avoid choosing stages with platforms (she can platform drop uair out of shield here). Battlefield and the like are ZSS' best stages; stages where you can abuse Link's long-range game are recommended (Final Destination, Smashville).

On a side note, I believe Link should die before ZSS; she has better kill moves and builds damage more quickly, but is very light.

 

[Rizen]

ZSSs I've played like to throw all but one of their power suit pieces off stage at the start. The pieces do not have piercing properities like Diddy's bananas or explode like bombs/grenades. Link has excellent item defense and mind games. Dash attack catches items and ZSS can't grab while holding one. Any standard attack's hit bubbles will stop the pieces when thrown or paralyzer blasts. Powershielding is the easiest with dash attacks on the ground and Nair starts on frame 6 and hits all around Link's lower body and legs for 21 strait frames. Zair works if the claw hits them and Bair has long attack periods with a small gap. All landing cancel. Land with a Zair or Nair if ZSS tries to paralyze your landing. Hylian shield also blocks paralyzer/suit pieces.
If Link gets a piece he can airdodge>Zair, Fsmash with it like bombs, and use projectiles freely with the reserve of a great throwing item in hand.

Note about grabs: ZSS has a similarly flawed throw to Link's. Hers has more windup ours has more end lag (I think). Both are risky and punishable but ZSS' is better: her 'collition grab bubbles' will grab out of the air and Link can only grab air opponents with his hand grab bubble, not the extended claw. Spot dodge is the best answer to her grab.

 

[Scabe]

Why would you throw your power suit pieces off stage?

Anyways, start of the match you want to start controlling those pieces. If your really good with items and you should be get those pieces and use them against her. If your not good with items then throw them away. ZSS's will definitely know how to use her Armour pieces. The ZSS's I've played usually start by throwing one up, throwing one down and then keeping one in their hand making it hard to get her pieces. She can use the pieces to glide toss them which goes a far distance into her 1 frame jab combo.

Her side B is a good spacing/zoning tool and even a shield pressure move. It looks like a fast move but it actually has a slow 20 or so frames on startup. You may find that when you go to shield it you start shielding all the way through the whole startup until it actually hit's your shield, and by the end of it your shield will be looking pretty small.

Her Side B beats Link's Zair in range so don't try to outzone with your Zair. Also I think her Side B has quick ending lag.

An offstage trick for her is to Side B you when your offstage, which forces you to airdodge and then she hit's you with Up air.

Her Up Air is amazing. It's got a huge hitbox and it beats Dair.

Her Back air can't be reliably shield grabbed. Same with Dtilt I think?


I started exploiting ZSS's slow shield grab game, what I'd do is Nair right into them and start jabbing and they couldn't shield grab it.

Watch for Paralyzer > Grab

I have a quite a few matches saved of me playing ZSS but I've only got one uploaded. So this outdated one will have to do. <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Jzd_zHShNJE&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Jzd_zHShNJE&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

And yeah I'm tired and pretty much just gave up half way , will contribute more later.

 

[Rizen]

Why would you throw your power suit pieces off stage?

Anyways, start of the match you want to start controlling those pieces.

If ZSS throws 2 pieces offstage she starts with control of the only remaining piece. Someone I know has those textures. How'd you post a video?

 

[zApollo]

If ZSS throws 2 pieces offstage she starts with control of the only remaining piece.

True, but some choose to keep all three, and I think it would make more sense against Link. Against other characters the pieces might be a problem.

 

[Dakpo]

A lot of the higher players will throw 2 of the pieces away unless they think the player cant take control over them, I have played quite a bit of link and the most annoying attack is that awesome zair you guys have, it comes out way to fast for side B and goes through B. Its also the gateway to many combos. Another important aspect of the is spamming projectiles. Its true that we could power shield everything but the same could be said for every attack in the game. Spam messes up zss; game a lot. But we do have a nice Dsmash lock and we can pull strings of Uair.
Scabe said " It's got a huge hitbox and it beats Dair. " about out Uair....um i dont think it does unless it is perfectly spaced, but up smash will tear dair apart. off the stage we can pressure very well with Dsmash or just tethering it to screw link over. this match up is around 55-45 zss favor. projectiles do make the match up harder, along with smart zair

 

[#HBC | J]

For me it seems a bit wiser too keep all 3 pieces and juggle them in the air because we can mess with Link's camping game of spamming projectiles. However the Gale Boomerang is hard to throw a piece through. But this is just the point of view of a scrubb ZSS This MU is even if not 55:45 ZSS.

Zair is really annoying to ZSS and messes our air game a bit. So are his projectiles that mess with ground game. However I think ZSS has a better time killing Link then vice versa.

Ill elaborate more when I get more info however I don't think ill be much help till stages. :/

 

[Scabe]

Any small contributions is good! Just look at how bad my matchup analysis was

There's a moment where you ZSS's is vunerable in her Flip Jump and you can Dair. I've only gotten it once or twice though on a ZSS who wasn't pro.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

I could see armor pieces absolutely ****** Link if one connects.

 

[Huggles828]

I believe Link should die before ZSS; she has better kill moves and builds damage more quickly, but is very light

However I think ZSS has a better time killing Link then vice versa.

I'm not gonna doubt you guys when you say ZSS can kill Link easier, since you know more about ZSS than me, but could you elaborate more on that, please? I've always thought ZSS was more of a character who could rack up damage but had some trouble killing until high percentages (at least, I never could whenever I tried to play her, outside of B forward and uair), and Link has a lot of kill potential, racks up damage fairly quickly, and is deceivingly hard to kill with good DI and MC (I routinely make it to 180%+ when I'm not gimped). What is it that makes ZSS kill so easily/avoid being killed, since I really can't see her surviving a solid blow from Link after, say, 140%? Is her MC and DI also very good? I guess I'm asking because I honestly don't know and have little ZSS experience. I really don't know a whole lot about this matchup to be of much use, I'm afraid, at least outside of maybe prodding with questions to help clarify things.

 

[Rizen]

Almost any time the term 'killing Link' comes up it means gimping him or exploiting his bad recovery. Link survives powerful hits at high %s only to be tapped with a laser or Nair and die.

 

[Huggles828]

True, but Rise said that ZSS couldn't reliably gimp Link offstage. I suppose that was what I was asking.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I could see armor pieces absolutely ****** Link if one connects.

They need to follow up with another suit piece or glide toss follow up, then Link would be in trouble.

I'm not sure if throwing suit pieces away is a great idea, they're pretty good for approaching Link and have serious gimp potential.

I've barely played this MU so I'm not well versed in it.

She has a chain-grab on us two fthrows + whatever she want. Then she has her Dash attack lock, which takes Link up pretty far.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well numbers and stages and we're going to move on.

Good stages:
FD
Halberd
Pokemon Stadium 1

Bad stages:
Castle Siege
Yoshi's island
Frigate Orphen

meh stages:
Battlefield
Smashville

40:60 in ZSS' favor

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Well, Link can use his gaint ***** on command by hitting grab in the air, so Zamus being a sexy female would mean that the matchup would be atleast 6:4 in Link's favor.

 

[Metro Knight]

This is a fun match if they don't respect the DAIR. You can get here in the 60s for a kill, if they are ********. Good times.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ok moving on,

Captain Falcon, Mario, Peach, Yoshi

I'd like to cover Peach personally.