Link+ [Updated 10-8 - Farewell F-Air, we hardly knew ye]

[Rikana]

Thanks. Someone bug Veril to change Link's fAir. :D

 

[Shadic]

We've already spoken to him, and I believe he mentioned at least using some of the elements we've proposed.

Some change is better than nothing, certainly. I think the change most likely to be dropped is the moved hitbox on the first hit, although it should still hit hard.

 

[matt4300]

We've already spoken to him, and I believe he mentioned at least using some of the elements we've proposed.

Some change is better than nothing, certainly. I think the change most likely to be dropped is the moved hitbox on the first hit, although it should still hit hard.

Sadly the moved hitbox only really helped on links hardest fights... shorties. Seems like that would be what you would want in a move change like this... Help him in his hardest matchups and not realy alter other ones.

But, we really don't know what parts veril wants... he did'nt specify.

 

[Shadic]

Even without a hitbox positional adjustment, the changed Fair is still vastly improved against short characters, because now something will actually happen if you short-hop fast-fall it.

 

[Demacrez]

At least make the second hit of F-Air something worthwhile. Maybe give it low angle KB and a semi-spike so that it won't be totally useless.

 

[Akuma2120]

Isn't Link pretty much gold for Brawl+? So why hasn't there been any Brawl+ 6.0 Link combo vids or at least vids of some people actually using him. I haven't seen a Link in a Brawl+ tournament yet, I would think there would be some Link mains who would use him in a 6.0 tournament....

 

[Shadic]

Link seems to be pretty unpopular amongst tournament-level players. I guess take out of that as you will.

 

[VietGeek]

i say you guys use a space animal as a scapegoat this time.

 

[Akuma2120]

Link seems to be pretty unpopular amongst tournament-level players. I guess take out of that as you will.

Wow, Link's playstyle is the only playstyle I actually like, ok Falco too but mainly Link, the rest of the characters feel boring to use

 

[Shadic]

i say you guys use a space animal as a scapegoat this time.

lolwut?

Spoiler

lolwutx2

 

[Alphatron]

I'll say it's a combination of the Link stigma and the fact that he doesn't excel at anything, really. The Link stigma is what has grown over the years after Link just happened to be an awful character in every fighting game he's ever been in. Even Soul Caliber 2.

 

[Shadic]

I liked Link in SC2. Granted, I mostly just chucked people off the stage, but still. Mitsurugi with his best weapon was hell-all broken in my experience.

And yes, the fact that he's mediocre at everything is quite annoying. Mediocre recovery, mediocre speed, mediocre set ups, mediocre kill moves (Although the buff that Dair will get with stage boundary changes = yum)... There's not much he's bad at, but most people can use their advantages against him. He's flexible, but not as flexible as a character like Metaknight, who is just good.

I dunno. I'm rambling, and likely will have irritated somebody with it. Oh wells.

 

[matt4300]

At least make the second hit of F-Air something worthwhile. Maybe give it low angle KB and a semi-spike so that it won't be totally useless.

We did... It its like 5 degrees up from a semi spike angle....

 

[bleyva]

Wow, Link's playstyle is the only playstyle I actually like, ok Falco too but mainly Link, the rest of the characters feel boring to use

wow, really? after playing with wario, MK and wolf for a while now, i find link to have of the most stale, mediocre movesets in B+.

theres just no flash to his game at all, just spacing and more spacing.

 

[GP&B]

I'd have to agree with bleyva.

 

[Akuma2120]

I don't space with him at all... I use his short variety of combos in Brawl+ and a crapload of bombs, I guess it's how you use him

but Wario, METAKNIGHT!? I'm sorry they're just way too boring, bunch of quick slashes for one and a bunch of weird moves and a bike for the other, nothing really interesting, Link's multiple projectiles makes him fun to play as

I'm not a super-competative player, I play for fun

 

[iLink]

wow, really? after playing with wario, MK and wolf for a while now, i find link to have of the most stale, mediocre movesets in B+.

theres just no flash to his game at all, just spacing and more spacing.

If you aren't just spacing with everyone else, then you are doing it wrong...

 

[MagmarFire]

Link seems to be pretty unpopular amongst tournament-level players. I guess take out of that as you will.

I say it gives Link the unfamiliarity advantage, if anything.

i say you guys use a space animal as a scapegoat this time.

*gets fur skinner*

 

[Alphatron]

So did the fair fix make it in?

 

[matt4300]

I haven't checked yet, but I'm worrying my self to death over it...

Edit: I am so sorry to all the link players... I wish I had never thought to make his fair like this... We are stuck with it for the next six months and mabye for the duration of +... I'm discusted with myself right now... We really should have petitioned this... I was too sure it would make it in. I feel sick about it.

 

[Alphatron]

So...the first slash of fair still sucks?

 

[matt4300]

So...the first slash of fair still sucks?

Yeh, the whole thing does... This means he can't ledge hop Fair... or SHFF fair... We are just gonna have to completely avoid useing it. Nair ftw?

I just went to a tourney with it and it was completely worthless... Like I said... If I had known how this would turn out I would never have sugested it... Vbrawl fair would have been better at this point

 

[Rikana]

I haven't checked yet, but I'm worrying my self to death over it...

Edit: I am so sorry to all the link players... I wish I had never thought to make his fair like this... We are stuck with it for the next six months and mabye for the duration of +... I'm discusted with myself right now... We really should have petitioned this... I was too sure it would make it in. I feel sick about it.

Well, there is still a way around it. If you get majority of the people to download your Link.pac instead of using the WBR's, I'm sure that it'll convince them to change Link to your liking since there's no point in keeping their original if everyone else is in favor of yours.

Make your Link.pac now and have it up for grabs. Advertise it and make people replace it. What happened to Link's fAir anyways?

 

[matt4300]

Well, there is still a way around it. If you get majority of the people to download your Link.pac instead of using the WBR's, I'm sure that it'll convince them to change Link to your liking since there's no point in keeping their original if everyone else is in favor of yours.

Make your Link.pac now and have it up for grabs. Advertise it and make people replace it. What happened to Link's fAir anyways?

Well I don't want to be a **** about the whole thing, but I don't see why it wasn't changed ... Most if not all the link players want a strong first hit.

Let me give you a run down of what I know about links current fair....

Back when character changes first started... A good few people were discussing what should be done with link... Some wanted 64 link some wanted melee, and some wanted a better brawl link. I suggested to cape that the fairs first hit should link into the second... It was coded and we all thought it was really cool. For awhile shadic and cape tried to get people to change it to a strong first hit. .Pacs were made and tested, and no one wanted it changed. Cape tried 2 times ... I think shadic tried once.

Then came GSH1 Wich lowered hitstun and shield stun. Links fair started to become noticeably worse. I asked cape if it would be possible to go back to a strong hit fair again. He told me that this fair was fine and reminded me that he had already tried to change it 2 times but we wouldnt listen. So I asked veril a bit later and Veril said If we made a pac, and did a good job convinceing him he would try and get it in.

A few of us link mains got together and made a new Fair .pac. I posted it here and gave a copy to veril. The reception in the link thread was very positive as you can see a few pages back. We also heard from veril that If it made it in it all of it wouldn't. Wich we were cool with.

So I figured it was a no brainer that it was makeing it in and stopped fighting for it since pretty much every link main wanted it, and even some non link mains.

An alabama tourney was comming up so I asked veril If the set would be out by then. In that Pm convo Veril told me the link fair change was not makeing it in. I freaked out and tried to convince him otherwise. He said the change to the timeing was why it wasnt gonna make it in. I said it would be fine if it didn't get a frame change as long as the first hit was strong. He said he would try again to get it in. I figured with the problem out of the way. The fact that we all wanted it in, and the fact that cape had tried to get it in 2 times. There was no way it wouldn't make it in.
I also pissed off veril by giveing out info on the release date by accident during that convo and didn't hear back from him on the link change.

SOooo here we are... With that ****ty fair I should have never asked for in the first place. (if anyone invovled see something i got wrong or missed let me know)

 

[Rikana]

If you aren't gonna be an *** about it, you won't get it changed. Veril can be stubborn because he's the project leader and that's a good thing since the project won't get anywhere if he isn't. But he's not a Link player. That's your job to convince others by presenting a Link that's fun to play.

If it was me, I'd release the .pac for people to download. I'd make my opponent change Link's pac to the one you created everytime I WiFi with someone. Do the same to the tournies that you enter so people are familiar with your Link and not the WBR's.

Just get the Link's .pac you suggested up for downloads. I'll support it and I'm sure there will be others, regardless of whether they play Link or not, will support it too. Just don't go overboard with the fAir changes.

 

[matt4300]

If you aren't gonna be an *** about it, you won't get it changed. Veril can be stubborn because he's the project leader and that's a good thing since the project won't get anywhere if he isn't. But he's not a Link player. That's your job to convince others by presenting a Link that's fun to play.

If it was me, I'd release the .pac for people to download. I'd make my opponent change Link's pac to the one you created everytime I WiFi with someone. Do the same to the tournies that you enter so people are familiar with your Link and not the WBR's.

Just get the Link's .pac you suggested up for downloads. I'll support it and I'm sure there will be others, regardless of whether they play Link or not, will support it too. Just don't go overboard with the fAir changes.

I got what you mean.... But I'm gonna give it until 7.1 is out to do so... I pretty much know for a fact that I can get the entire alabama + scene to use my link Pac. But I would much rather not have to resort to that.

We all know Links fair should be strong on first hit. Thats just how link has always been. He needs this.

I really would like to get this change in before 7.1 ... I'll have no choice but to make my own pac after that. Because I can't play link in this condition. Not being able to have a fast gtfo aerial and not being able to ledge hop aerial are big problems for link since he really needs a good way to get back on stage.

 

[Shadic]

Sigh.

Well, there's also Project M. I can confirm Fair doesn't suck in that.

 

[matt4300]

Would be hilarious if all the + link mains just quit + for PM because of this...

yeh... sorry I was pissed and misinformed.

 

[Veril]

Actually, Link's current fair is a mistake, and you've all flipped a s*** pointlessly. Fairly easy to tell that the move was overlooked/ignored when coded since the sakurai angle is still on fair. Attempting to force an alternate Link .pac is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard, all it would do is hurt your state competitively.

The current fair was the result of Cape actually listening to your collective *****ing. I keep this in mind and take everything any of you say with a small mountain of salt. I won't take anything you say at face value. We have to make an update anyway to remove DP+ and modify the .gct, so the correct link fair will be up then.

It is not the one you worked on. It will have the strong hit first with a 35° angle and the weak hit second with a 20° angle and slight damage increase. No frame-speed changes and no lolwut damage buff.

If you aren't gonna be an *** about it, you won't get it changed.

I hate this logic more than anything else I encounter from this community.

 

[Rikana]

I'm saying that in comparison to anything in general, Veril. I hope you didn't get offended by that statement. If one were to keep quiet and just play along as if everything's okay, there's a chance the idea may never get heard of. I wasn't suggesting matt4300 to be an *** as in keep nagging you about it and trash talk. I meant to keep reminding people of what Link should be played like regardless of how annoying or a pain in the *** the reminder can be.

Its basically what I did for Charizard. I just had to keep bringing it up until some people would agree. I apologize if you took that statement the wrong way.

And no, forcing Link pacs to get a point crossed is not stupid. Maybe in your opinion, but it definitely helps those who feel like their favourite character is useless without some changes. Anyways, thanks for pointing out the mistake and fixing it. I play Link from time to time for fun and I wouldn't mind the slight alteration in his fAir.

 

[matt4300]

Actually, Link's current fair is a mistake, and you've all flipped a s*** pointlessly. Fairly easy to tell that the move was overlooked/ignored when coded since the sakurai angle is still on fair. Attempting to force an alternate Link .pac is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard, all it would do is hurt your state competitively.

The current fair was the result of Cape actually listening to your collective *****ing. I keep this in mind and take everything any of you say with a small mountain of salt. I won't take anything you say at face value. We have to make an update anyway to remove DP+ and modify the .gct, so the correct link fair will be up then.

It is not the one you worked on. It will have the strong hit first with a 35° angle and the weak hit second with a 20° angle and slight damage increase. No frame-speed changes and no lolwut damage buff.



I hate this logic more than anything else I encounter from this community.

I think you can understand why people would be upset seeing as how no one was told it was overlooked... We thought we were gonna be stuck with something really awful. Glad you got in here. I had already heard that a few more guys were comeing in to ***** about it. I wasen't *****ing about cape or anyone else we already talked about that It wasen't his fault or anyone elses in the WBR. It was my fault for wanting it in in the first place.

Though I got infracted for this (first infraction! I feel like part of the community) I feel so much better about this whole thing now that you've let us know.

You may like me even less now, but I'm really thankful to you, and the team. Because I'm gonna go to many more tourneys, and MAIN this link for the duration of brawl+.

(the damage was the same as Vbrawl... Just 2 point shifted from second to first hit. The damage was reduced in brawl+ because it was soposed to link. Though I may have skrewed up the pac I gave you. The pac i made did 12 first 9 second...)

EDIT.... Yeh... The pac I made was ****ed up... That damage buff was never soposed to be in...

I got what you meant rikanna ... I wasnt planning on *****ing to anyone about it. I would just have used my link fair in bama tournies because I actually used a strong hit fair in the first 2 lol... Now that just about everyone in bama is playing + and TN is comming down to them. We got more official with the last tourney... Wich had the linking link fair.

 

[Veril]

Its basically what I did for Charizard. I just had to keep bringing it up until some people would agree. I apologize if you took that statement the wrong way.

No, you didn't do that for Charizard. Guru, Jiang, and Holy all have spoken to me about Zard and in far greater detail.

Don't think you are the only person to complain about him. The fixes were either my creation (in the case of nair and d-smash) or suggested and worked on by people I know and trust. (except the up-b reverse grab fix, which was cape's, and the aerial mobility buff, which was suggested by Guru and perfected by Blind).

And yes, forcing a link .pac would be incredibly foolish, you think say... NY would use that .pac. F*** no! People who used that .pac would be totally unable to compete outside of their little unorthodox bubble.

Saying Link is useless without the fair change is scrubby as h***, and thinking that the people here are representative of the entire Link community is equally stupid. The "whine till you get what you want" attitude is why better players don't visit these threads especially often. Even to people in the b+broom (and definitely high level players of brawl or melee), the mentality in these threads is a huge turnoff.

"This is why I don't visit the character discussion boards often"
~VaNz after seeing this thread.

Though I got infracted for this (first infraction! I feel like part of the community) I feel so much better about this whole thing now that you've let us know.

You may like me even less now, but I'm really thankful to you, and the team. Because I'm gonna go to many more tourneys, and MAIN this link for the duration of brawl+.

(the damage was the same as Vbrawl... Just 2 point shifted from second to first hit. The damage was reduced in brawl+ because it was soposed to link. Though I may have skrewed up the pac I gave you. The pac i made did 12 first 9 second...)

EDIT.... Yeh... The pac I made was ****ed up... That damage buff was never soposed to be in...

Well, that post is actually kind of sweet and endearing... now for the harsh portion of my response

The infraction was for a post that consisted purely of whining ("all Link mains quit for P:M"). Which is ridiculous anyway.

Its not that I dislike you, its that I dislike the whole mindset of a lot of the brawl+ players. In a static game, people think of novel uses for moves and often something that appears mediocre is actually made useful by a diligent player. Here that doesn't happen often because people just cry out for fixes instead of working around what they have.

Take Ness's d-tilt, someone wrote in the thread that it was "borderline useless". This tells me a lot about them as a player. Now Ness and Lucas have similar d-tilts in that both have disadvantages on hit at lower %, can induce trips, and are very fast. Those are there obvious qualities. This person looked at the one aspect and discounted the move. Like a FOOL.

Now, I main Lucas and of course have analyzed his moveset. The d-tilt starts out sucking, but it has almost no growth, and at higher % it will eventually reach a point at which the frame advantage is such that the person is either going to trip or you will be safe. It also has a positive advantage on shield, which is amazingly useful if you know how to pressure the opponents shield. I won't go into the details of the move. The point is, it looks like it sucks on the surface, but I worked to find out how to use it in my game. The Ness player just wants a fix, without putting in the work.

And you should never assume unanimity of opinion on anything. Blind actually opposed the fair change to Link, VaNz thought it was unnecessary. Blind is a Link second and has a lot of high level experience, and is basically the heart of the Chicago B+ scene. VaNz plays everyone... very well. They both were like, well actually fair can do x, y, and z. Notably Blind talked about how its unsafe to shield fair on platforms because it has the right amount of shield pushback to force them off and directly into the second fair. I mean, its little things like that that over time can make a move a lot better and by just demanding changes you will never really learn your character or truly progress as a player.

 

[Rikana]

lol okay Veril. I guess apologizing isn't enough for you. I may have worded my sentences in a way which made you think differently than what I'm trying to convey but okay (such as Link's fAir being useless and notice the word "feel" as in they don't need to actually be useless to feel useless?). Anyways, I'll end it here so this thread doesn't derail.

Glad to have the fAir change. Continue on.

 

[matt4300]

Agreed rikana. I could'nt care less about all of this. Brawl+ is pretty much done, and all of the whineing, debateing and crappy character thread will stop now. I'm wholly satisfied with the finished product. Best game ever made.

NOW...

I'm gonna ask Shadic about getting this thread updated... Ive had a good bit of link+ tourney experince against some pretty good players. Be nice to get this thread to get on track.
I'm gonna be working on some stuff for it.

And you should never assume unanimity of opinion on anything. Blind actually opposed the fair change to Link, VaNz thought it was unnecessary. Blind is a Link second and has a lot of high level experience, and is basically the heart of the Chicago B+ scene. VaNz plays everyone... very well. They both were like, well actually fair can do x, y, and z. Notably Blind talked about how its unsafe to shield fair on platforms because it has the right amount of shield pushback to force them off and directly into the second fair. I mean, its little things like that that over time can make a move a lot better and by just demanding changes you will never really learn your character or truly progress as a player.

Yes... I know I was exagerating about it being completely useless.. I know about the platform thing (wich the new fair will do better). I know that first hit can be a great mind game into a grab. I know it has a few uses. And I've been useing it for quite a while now as best I could. The new fair will do just about everything it did but better, and allow for ledge hop fair, Quick SHFFs (it was very difficult to hit a competent player with the second hit) some good gimps off stage, a great spaceing gtfo move, and will be much safer.
I'm also kinda flattered they thought anything on the fair was good. Must be how cape coded it... Because the idea was awfull. >_>'

 

[Shadic]

Actually, Link's current fair is a mistake,

Well, I guess that's good, but why was the gold release seemingly rushed so much? Seems like a bunch of mistakes were tossed around, but I guess having a bunch of people test releases is quicker than anything else.

As for the complaining itself, it's because it was a crappy move in Brawl, (from what I can tell, I'm holding off testing until this set is 100% finished) made even less useful than in the previous set, and I don't think anybody is arguing that Link is top-tier in the first place.

And the strong hit - I've wanted it all along. Not my fault Link mains can't make up their minds.

Fairly easy to tell that the move was overlooked/ignored when coded since the sakurai angle is still on fair.

So, should we just assume you guys ****ed up and sit quiet when there's a crappy change, or should we bother speaking up? I never agreed with the side .pac file, but it seems like you wanted us to just not say anything, despite it being crap.

 

[Veril]

Well, I guess that's good, but why was the gold release seemingly rushed so much? Seems like a bunch of mistakes were tossed around, but I guess having a bunch of people test releases is quicker than anything else.

There were a few major changes that came up recently. I had a ton of pressure to get out gold and nearly all the character specific changes had been finished... except the Sakurai angles. Blind and I pulled marathon work sessions, with my finalizing the boundaries (which was about 12 hours of straight work on just that) and Blind coding the sakurai angles. Most of the problems were due to a large new code (ledgestall removal) that involved a fighter.pac injection. It was big and complex and I did not realize the extent to which codes like that need to be pressure tested.

As to the .gct problems, it was initially due to formatting issues (don't ask) with the text, and also due to the fact that the person who got me the .txt initially was incommunicado due to a tornado. I also did not understand the level freezer code. I'm not good at coding.

I also had to fix Charizard (nobody had thrown viable suggestions my way), and I had all of these new stages... there was just an enormous amount of work. I'm not gonna even get started on the changelist. Blind worked for 3 days pretty much non-stop, I slept about 2 hours each night and worked whenever I wasn't working at my job.


tl;dr: There was a ton of pressure. The leak intensified it immensely. I made several mistakes due to inexperience. My focus was figuring everything out, and I do genuinely think that the set is amazing. The issues are ones that its clear will be solved very soon. There are a lot, but its like, now that the set is out, and its obvious I hauled ***, the level of activity is great. I also got the help I was missing on the weekend. Its really looking up. It was a messy, crazy, painful and hectic release, but this set is really something that deserves to be called gold.

so about that Link KOing more effectively... you like the new boundaries?

 

[matt4300]

so about that Link KOing more effectively... you like the new boundaries?

Man I gotta try that... I'm gonna be going to a smashfest with some of the guys that hold the bama tourneys. Gonna get lots of link info and experience. Mostly against lucario lol. Wich is good. He is a serious thorn in my side since the TO and his bro both play him...

Seriously can't wait to get some playtime on that new RFs... It's easily my favorite stage yet. I love the colors and the setup. (and bramble blast!)

 

[CanadaKid91]

Take Ness's d-tilt, someone wrote in the thread that it was "borderline useless". This tells me a lot about them as a player. Now Ness and Lucas have similar d-tilts in that both have disadvantages on hit at lower %, can induce trips, and are very fast. Those are there obvious qualities. This person looked at the one aspect and discounted the move. Like a FOOL.

Ouch!

10ouch

 

[matt4300]

Since the new fair won't be in the set for a while... What are the Values? I'm about to go to a smashfest. I would like to get some experience with full gold link and have something to contribute to this thread.

Please?

 

[Veril]

Since the new fair won't be in the set for a while... What are the Values? I'm about to go to a smashfest. I would like to get some experience with full gold link and have something to contribute to this thread.

The next patch should be up quite soon actually (tonight or tomorrow hopefully). Had to redo the SSS and DJCH fixes as well as put in Viet's camera fix.

Anyway, the fair change is pretty simple:

1st hit:
12%
35 angle
KBG: 110
BKB: 20

2nd hit:

8%
25 angle
KBG: 110
BKB: 20

much more useful knockback values, 2nd hit has an excellent angle for gimping, first has a better killing angle. Damage on the weak hit increased by 2.