Link+ [Updated 10-8 - Farewell F-Air, we hardly knew ye]

[Shadic]

If its project M, then Link should get his N64 intro instead.

Wait..no specific intros in melee. Nevermind.

It would be pretty similar to like, Marth's.

 

[Demacrez]

He should teleport in similar to teleporting in Twilight Princess. That's my prefered teleporting.

 

[zxeon]

Yeah, That **** was awesome.

 

[Shadic]

I think the easiest to do would be something like Marth's, as the graphics should be relatively simple (Blue flashy lights!)

 

[Swordplay]

Been kind of a silent reader here and I have to say a few words.

I think your over-rating zair. Its good but you have to predict DI. If you don't you could overshoot your DAC and pass them by allowing them to punish you or you could come up short on a dash attack. Good tool and helps Link in a few matchups where he needed it but the use of this tool is matchup specific and can be beaten if overused. Using it much more than 7-10 times a match, unless your opponent is DK Bowser Snake or DDD should be a signal that you might be using it too much.

Last thing I wanted to say is Link+ dittos are extremly fun, even if they are online. Its hilarious. You both try to space eachother with jab and you end up clanking moves a lot. Not to mention you'll run into spurts where your just projectile spacing at eachtother which is LOLZ.

That is all.

 

[Shadic]

Link dittos have always been my favorite match, in all Smash games. There's projectiles flying everywhere, a lot of pretty entertaining spacing all around, and any off-stage game has to be pretty cautious, although the hookshot recovery in Melee can lead to some amazing stuff.

 

[Rouenne]

I still think his swings need speed. For what's I've seen the Boomerang lacks combo potential, so shouldn't it be better off as a "Back off!" move?

 

[Swordplay]

Don't use the boomerang as a tool for combo's. Thats a toon link tactic. You don't want to play like toon link do you?

Use it as a tool for chasing. Knock them down with a boomerang and jab to force a get up or tech chase with dash attack/grab/arrow.

Everybody should be grabbing lots. Grab game is so good now.

 

[Demacrez]

I prefer Gale to be my separating tool/"start my barrage of projectiles" object. Though, my style with Link is mostly with the sword than grabbing. I'm a terrible grabber so I make it up with short hop aerial attacks comboed with ground sword attacks.

 

[V-K]

I just installed the new B+.
And what the *** happened to his fair?

 

[Demacrez]

I just installed the new B+.
And what the *** happened to his fair?

What do you mean? His F-Air seems fine to me; KO's at the right precentage and can be set up for mean combos and finishers.

But I do like the new angle for his F-Smash. Not at the low angle which usually KO'ed nor at the high angle which made the move nearly useless unless at the ledge. It's just right.

And... Gay-A-Rang is still gay. Spacer it still is.

 

[Shadic]

Cape and I prefer the Fair hitting strong on the first hit, but most of you guys seem to disagree.

 

[V-K]

I also think Link´s first hit of his Fair should be strong.

 

[The Phazon Assassin]

I agree with that statement. I feel like I'd actually be able to utilize a SHFF'ed Fair.

 

[The Cape]

Why am I not surprised? People never know what they want until they tell me I am wrong >.>

Anyway, Link is a frame trappy *****. Love it.

 

[Shadic]

Why am I not surprised? People never know what they want until they tell me I am wrong >.>
Anyway, Link is a frame trappy *****. Love it.

Hey, I proposed the change way before even GSH1.

Seriously though. Smash64 Fair FTW. Or at least some other non-sucky one. Which involves the first hit actually hitting.

I feel like I'd actually be able to utilize a SHFF'ed Fair.

Exactly. That's my ideal use for it. If the second hit was a bit weaker, or even popped upward a bit, it would be awesome.

 

[ValTroX]

Cape and I prefer the Fair hitting strong on the first hit, but most of you guys seem to disagree.

I also think Link´s first hit of his Fair should be strong.

I agree with you guys, I came here to say this and found it posted, surprise surprise

I agree with that statement. I feel like I'd actually be able to utilize a SHFF'ed Fair.

I was playing with link and he just fells crappy without SHFF Fair...I mean, why do you need Fair to be a setup for a kill move if it is a kill move itself not to mention that it doesn't have any shield pressure, you just get shield grabbed most of the time(maybe I play overly defensive people)

 

[RPGsFTW]

I remember the good ole times where I first said that B+ Link should have the Smash 64 Fair. Then it was that way, at least in a test pac, and Link's Fair was good for once.

Yeeaahh, those were the good ole days.

 

[Swordplay]

Seriously.....

Why would you want to use SHFF fair when you have SHFF nair which is a better move in terms of length and priority thus it hits more. At the %'s SHFF fair would kill SHFF nair would easily set up a gimp. If you wanted range, use zair. Not only that, nair will get you closer allowing you to follow up with Jab>Jab>Grab should they shield. Link already has moves that are easy to land and will pop up. Why should 2nd hit fair?

 

[ValTroX]

Well, if you want to set up, then use Nair instead of Fair and give Fair some power, it would be a win-win situation

 

[JCaesar]

I have no idea what Swordplay just said.

The point of making the first hit of fair strong (a la Melee) is to improve his approach and pressure game. SHFF fair has much longer range and is a lot safer than SHFF nair (on stage of course. Off-stage nair is better at gimping).

I never understood why the Link mains were against it. The one set it was in, it made him so much more fun to play, and he flowed a lot better.

 

[Swordplay]

Is the real reason you want this because you think its hard to land fair? If thats the case were done talking because I don't have the same problem. Sure I don't land it as frequently as many of my other moves but I DO land it enough for me to consider it useful. I guess though it would really come down to the opinion of what is considered "useful"

If your reason is because you want another kill move with some range then you really need to consider that EVERY MOVE LINK HAS is a kill move with some range. If your looking for a kill move with some mobility or range, I would recommend F-smash. In the time you can jump and SHFF fair, F-smash would be faster. Granted Fair would be just a safer option because you will end lag for start lag, But...... I know from experience that its pretty hard (though very possible) to follow up with the current fair 1st hit only. Shield stun knocks them back and sometimes they are out of range for jab jab. A move with more power would only be harder to follow up with if they block or dodge. (unless side dodge in which case both cases lead to same result) How would you expect to follow up anything? If your using this move it is for SPACING with the intention of HITTING THEM WITH A STRONG MOVE. You'll have a better chance of this with F-smash. This move even has the mindgame potential of a second hit so people will be hesitant to react if you mix it up.

==========EDIT============

If you STILL want to change it after all of that, then do it. Try it out. See how it affects matchups. If you disagree with me, and think it will add flow to link, I'll shut up and sit by the sidelines and hopefully you will put of video's for critique. Maybe it will fit your playstyle much better than mine. The Fair debate has gone on way too long and its time we really come to an agreement. There won't be that many more updates for B+. Only glitches and stages remain so please, Try it out SOON and show me videos. I'll be waiting.

 

[Demacrez]

Is the real reason you want this because you think its hard to land fair? If thats the case were done talking because I don't have the same problem. Sure I don't land it as frequently as many of my other moves but I DO land it enough for me to consider it useful. I guess though it would really come down to the opinion of what is considered "useful"

If your reason is because you want another kill move with some range then you really need to consider that EVERY MOVE LINK HAS is a kill move with some range. If your looking for a kill move with some mobility or range, I would recommend F-smash. In the time you can jump and SHFF fair, F-smash would be faster. Granted Fair would be just a safer option because you will end lag for start lag, But...... I know from experience that its pretty hard (though very possible) to follow up with the current fair 1st hit only. Shield stun knocks them back and sometimes they are out of range for jab jab. A move with more power would only be harder to follow up with if they block or dodge. (unless side dodge in which case both cases lead to same result) How would you expect to follow up anything? If your using this move it is for SPACING with the intention of HITTING THEM WITH A STRONG MOVE. You'll have a better chance of this with F-smash. This move even has the mindgame potential of a second hit so people will be hesitant to react if you mix it up.

==========EDIT============

If you STILL want to change it after all of that, then do it. Try it out. See how it affects matchups. If you disagree with me, and think it will add flow to link, I'll shut up and sit by the sidelines and hopefully you will put of video's for critique. Maybe it will fit your playstyle much better than mine. The Fair debate has gone on way too long and its time we really come to an agreement. There won't be that many more updates for B+. Only glitches and stages remain so please, Try it out SOON and show me videos. I'll be waiting.

I agree with him about the F-Air issue. I really don't understand what the problem is with the current F-Air since we already tested the "Strong-Hit-W/-First-Strike-F-Air" and didn't like it. At first it was nice but I feel it made the move bland and too predictable since everyone is gonna use F-Air for its first strike.

 

[Shadic]

The problem with the Fair is that it sucks, especially compared to what it could be. Do you honestly use only the first hit very often, and if so, can you hit anything out of it?

If the Fair had a strong first hit and a second that did something useful like pop the enemy up a little bit, the move could actually see some use. I've always been a fair of a short-hopped Fair, but it's not something you can do in B+.

I just don't see much use of the move in the current form at all, really. And the first hit being weak doesn't seem advantageous in the least.

 

[Swordplay]

We (matt4300 and I) realize fair sucks. Its just our opinion that this version sucks less than the smash 64.

Now its time for good news.

We did lots of testing today and found that at this new hitstun without the NADT, its not as good as we thought. Nair is better in every situation. It either has more shield stun or less lag because we can react better and faster after it and it is easier to land.


You will be happy to hear matt4300 and I found and out side of the box creative solution that will give fair more uses. (hopefully) We are going to be PM'ing various people.

We will actually in the process of a test pac now. More to come.

Don't get hyped, near gold usually means NO CHANGES. (Wish we had thought of it sooner)

====

If you get a PM, keep it top secret. Matt4300 and I really don't want to share what we have until its 100% complete.

 

[matt4300]

We (matt4300 and I) realize fair sucks. Its just our opinion that this version sucks less than the smash 64.

Now its time for good news.

We did lots of testing today and found that at this new hitstun without the NADT, its not as good as we thought. Nair is better in every situation. It either has more shield stun or less lag because we can react better and faster after it and it is easier to land.


You will be happy to hear matt4300 and I found and out side of the box creative solution that will give fair more uses. (hopefully) We are going to be PM'ing various people.

We will actually in the process of a test pac now. More to come.

Don't get hyped, near gold usually means NO CHANGES. (Wish we had thought of it sooner)

====

If you get a PM, keep it top secret. Matt4300 and I really don't want to share what we have until its 100% complete.

Lol, but yeh... What SP and, Shadic said... Current Fair+Near gold = useless. It was fine in 5.0 it just blows now. I'm working on a pac right now. There are a few ideas we are thinking about, and I wanna try to make everyone happy. We seem to be split right now about it. This should remedy that split. That is if veril will have it. Though this does seem to be a problem for all link mains... We just arent as *****y as marth mains.

 

[V-K]

Alright, I played a bit with Link today and I think his fair is almost useless.
The only thing you can do SH to Fair (but not SHFF). You can´t even approach from the edge because then only the first slash hits and does nothing.
And also his nair doesn´t have the range the Fair has.

His Fair was one of his most important moves in Melee. Why would you change that?

EDIT: okay my bad you can approach from the edge but you have to do it faster than before

 

[matt4300]

Alright, I played a bit with Link today and I think his fair is almost useless.
The only thing you can do SH to Fair (but not SHFF). You can´t even approach from the edge because then only the first slash hits and does nothing.
And also his nair doesn´t have the range the Fair has.

His Fair was one of his most important moves in Melee. Why would you change that?

EDIT: okay my bad you can approach from the edge but you have to do it faster than before

Read above posts

 

[matt4300]

sorry double post...

NEW FAIR PAC!
alot of time went into getting this thing perfect... I advise all that main link or just didnet like his last fair to try this...

http://www.mediafire.com/?mjjmmxi1ymi

First hit is a powerful gtfo/kill move

second hit is a weak slightly high semi spike.

EDIT: soooooo..... anyone try this? We need you guys to suport this fair. Veril has said that we do have a chance for it to be changed. Lets get this passed!

 

[zxeon]

That sounds cool , I'd be testing it right now but my SD card reader doesn't work so I'd have to pull all sorts of Wii homebrew acrobatics to get this onto my SD card. I also think Shadic's Fair was good too it just felt like Link didn't need it at the time but now we find ourselves in need of an aerial with decent range and GTFO power.

You can go ahead and say "I told you so".

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Link doesn't need it, is all. It's an unnecessary change. Links moves flow together really well, and if done correctly, a few moves at killing percents actually lead to both hits of the fair.

 

[V-K]

I like the new fair. :D
FF to fair is pretty good now.

 

[JCaesar]

Great change. Link may be fun to play again.

 

[Shadic]

Link doesn't need it, is all. It's an unnecessary change. Links moves flow together really well, and if done correctly, a few moves at killing percents actually lead to both hits of the fair.

Nobody uses the Fair. The first hit is worthless, and it takes too long for the second to come out.

I also think Shadic's Fair was good too it just felt like Link didn't need it at the time but now we find ourselves in need of an aerial with decent range and GTFO power.
You can go ahead and say "I told you so".

I told you so. Would have been easier to get into B+ if you guys would have supported it back then, too.

To those who want to see this in an official set:

We need to prove that this is indeed an improvement to Link's have that is worth having, not just some random dumb buff. We need shield-stun data, advantages of the new Fair, etc. I'm too busy at the moment, unfortunately. Can one of the more tech-skilled players here work on it? Or maybe JCaesar, we'd love you forever. <3

 

[Shadic]

...Bah. You lazy Link mains.

Anyways, I found out something cool. Link can drop off the ledge, jump and do a rising Nair, and grab the ledge out of it. Not sure how helpful it'd be, but the Nair has pretty decent priority.

 

[Wavedash Master]

Anyways, I found out something cool. Link can drop off the ledge, jump and do a rising Nair, and grab the ledge out of it. Not sure how helpful it'd be, but the Nair has pretty decent priority.

Ledge guarding is the first thing that comes to mind.

 

[Rikana]

sorry double post...

NEW FAIR PAC!
alot of time went into getting this thing perfect... I advise all that main link or just didnet like his last fair to try this...

http://www.mediafire.com/?mjjmmxi1ymi

First hit is a powerful gtfo/kill move

second hit is a weak slightly high semi spike.

EDIT: soooooo..... anyone try this? We need you guys to suport this fair. Veril has said that we do have a chance for it to be changed. Lets get this passed!

Invalid or Deleted File
The key you provided for file download was invalid. This is usually caused because the file is no longer stored on Mediafire. This occurs when the file is removed by the originating user or Mediafire. If you believe you have reached this page in error, please contact support.

 

[Rikana]

No one wants to reupload?

 

[Shadic]

Didn't see your post, sorry. I'll bug Matt when I see him online.

 

[matt4300]

Here ya go Rikana.

http://www.mediafire.com/?yem2yzm2dmz