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Link+ [Updated 10-8 - Farewell F-Air, we hardly knew ye]

Swordplay

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Nice vids Vanz. I can defiantly tell your a good player by watching your vids. To be honest they way you play Link, I'm not sure how much our other fair would have an effect on your style. You use a nair approach which is the correct approach. Fair for you is probably to slow to use as a SH spacer.



By the way, loved the way you used Links shield in the ZSS match. I don't get to see that often. Excellent anticipation
 

Shadic

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Figured I'd toss this out again because it got eaten by new page:
Saying nobody uses Link is silly. VaNz and Blind both use Link (you know, in regions where people are actually good at B+). I could spoon feed you advantage data, KO%, etc, but... why? The attitude here is awful.
Anyways. I'd actually like to see data on a SHFF'd Fair with only the first hit connecting. First hit vs. landing lag.
If the data really shows that the first hit of Fair actually has a point when you only connect with it, and then land, I'll eat my hat.

And just for the heck of it, I decided to compare two of your Link v. Peach matches. One was Brawl+. The other was Melee.

Both videos were 4 Stock
Both videos were Link (VaNz), vs. Peach
The B+ video was 5:01, and the Melee video was 3:15

In the B+ video, VaNz used Fair three times, only one of which hit.

In the Melee video, VaNz used Fair four times, three of which hit.

While only comparing one video is dumb statistically speaking, I do think that the current iteration of the move isn't very useful, and while VaNz is indeed a skilled player, he doesn't use the move very often in the first place.

Seriously, VaNz. You say it's good, but you never throw it out. I've watched some of your other videos, I was just too lazy to count in any others.
 

goodoldganon

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How is the fact that Vanz used F-air ONCE more in melee then in brawl+ some sort of revelation? If you were showing a vid where it was his only approach or some part of his BnB game then maybe you'd have a soapbox to stand on. Both moves are useful in their own right, but Brawl+'s is more specialized.

Falcon's knee is still amazing in Brawl+ but you don't see it thrown out and killing like it did in Melee. It is much more specialized in Brawl+. Yes his knee is worse but it is still a good move with good applications, just like Link's f-air.

How about we move on and try discussing some of Link's problem matchups. I don't play Link enough to really say one way or the other but I find my Falco to be tough for my friends Link. I can out spam him so his projectiles are kind of negated. I can almost SHL on reaction from a projectile. Then there is that whole reflector biz. So how do you guys fight Falco cause right now my friend is to the point he rage quits against Falco :)
 

Shadic

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How about we move on and try discussing some of Link's problem matchups. I don't play Link enough to really say one way or the other but I find my Falco to be tough for my friends Link. I can out spam him so his projectiles are kind of negated. I can almost SHL on reaction from a projectile. Then there is that whole reflector biz. So how do you guys fight Falco cause right now my friend is to the point he rage quits against Falco :)
The Falco matchup is just sad. Matt and I were actually talking about it. Lasers just eat through Link's projectiles, and what does get through can be reflected.
 

goodoldganon

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Has anyone tried crouching and using Link's shield or does his head stick up to high that Falco can snipe? It seems like it would be horribly slow to fight a campy Falco, but dash canceling and using Link's real shield seems like it could be viable. It's two mistakes a stock for Falco so that is in Link's favor I suppose. Also, tether hogging seems to wreck Falco more then a lot of characters. I could definitely say it is one of Link's worst matchups. Who are you guys using as backup for Link's poor matchups? My buddy uses Sonic and Falcon
 

Jiangjunizzy

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How about Shadic and matt post vids or replays of themselves playing and we can see for ourselves what exactly they're having trouble with?
 

matt4300

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Yeh, Shadic and I were also discussing the fact that we can't put up any vids. I would love to do so personally. My links pretty good I'm told, and I've got some good opponents aswell.

I have replays agaisnt some good lucarios and a great peach. Also the guy that wins all our bama tournies (with lucario >_>) is starting to get a mean Ivy. + I could post vids of him just speed rapeing me with lucario (because only like 4 chars can handle his gay ****).

I just don't have the equipment to put it on the web. None of us do. Well... Mabye Ko's got some stuff but hes up in Tennessee.


On the subject of falco... I honestly thing its bad for link... But some things you can do are:

Jump alot... Yeh, sounds kinda lame, but falco whats you in front of his lazer, and under his dair. And if you full hop nair for approaches 1 he cant combo off his lazers 2. He can't dair you onstage for gay combos. Also use alot of bombs. Rang and arrow may be canceled with lazers, but bombs absorb them. Don't even think about useing sheild.. That may work for something like marios fireballs or lucarios aurasphere, but falcos just to **** fast. It's like useing bowsers super crouch... Meaning its always better to sheild and wait for him to go for the dair or usmash. Then you just counter with a jab.

Falco also gets ***** hard by links high damage combos, and when killing time comes falcos plain done from any one of links kill setups because falcos a fastfaller.( Grab, dthrow dair at 70-100) And ofcouse we all know falco is just ****ed if he tries to recover especialy with link.

Incase anyone cares good fair ***** against falco. In every way shape and form. It almost makes it a good matchup IMO.

Edit: The fact that falco doesnt have any aerials with a good angle to gimp link makes it really easy to make to most out of DIing up when hit offstage, and link recovers low so its risky for falco to try for a dair and You wont have to worry about lazer gimps as long as you get down fast. Though insta Bairs giant hitbox can still **** you up good >_>
 

Swordplay

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Yea. Spacies eat d-tilt if they try to go for ledge. If they try to go right on stage. Spin attack.

Bassically what Matt said. I use FH nairs and try to combo that into something like a jab cancel and hit him offstage. Then try for gimp opportunities. Nair falco and keep him offstage is the strat.


Heck though you want to talk about a difficult matchup? we should talk pikachu.
 

Death Arcana

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whats with the knock back taken away from the bombs?

when i try to bomb recover i get like barely any vertical distance.
 

Ponyo

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Link has a pretty good attack game. All of his moves will perfectly align without much lag as long as you time them correctly. And the boomerang is a nice touch. Great for gimping and setting up combos.
 

Cia

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Falcon's knee is still amazing in Brawl+ but you don't see it thrown out and killing like it did in Melee. It is much more specialized in Brawl+. Yes his knee is worse but it is still a good move with good applications, just like Link's f-air.
This answers Shadic's post perfectly.

As for Link vs Falco. I like full hop Nairs. They get me in safely and I can set up jab strings. Falco will usually try to get out w/ a roll dodge or something, so be prepared for that. If it's too far to chase with dash attack, throw a boomerang. It'll keep him on the defensive a bit longer and you can try to close the gap. Link's advantage in the match up is his range, so Falco will have some trouble getting it as well. Bombs won't be as helpful.. so use them sparingly. overall, just try to get him off stage. It's a good way to get some early percent/ early kill. Also, Dtilt is great if you can land it. hope this helps

*Also if you ever ground your opponent and there's enough distance between you, charge an arrow. Release as a response to your opponent's get up and you've got some free damage (and potentially knocks your opponent offstage)
 

matt4300

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This answers Shadic's post perfectly.

As for Link vs Falco. I like full hop Nairs. They get me in safely and I can set up jab strings. Falco will usually try to get out w/ a roll dodge or something, so be prepared for that. If it's too far to chase with dash attack, throw a boomerang. It'll keep him on the defensive a bit longer and you can try to close the gap. Link's advantage in the match up is his range, so Falco will have some trouble getting it as well. Bombs won't be as helpful.. so use them sparingly. overall, just try to get him off stage. It's a good way to get some early percent/ early kill. Also, Dtilt is great if you can land it. hope this helps

*Also if you ever ground your opponent and there's enough distance between you, charge an arrow. Release as a response to your opponent's get up and you've got some free damage (and potentially knocks your opponent offstage)
I disagree about the bombs, but I always play a heavy bomb game when ever I get a chance to pull one.

YES, The part about chargeing arrows is something every possible link + main needs to know. This is almost links best form of tech chaseing. If you time it right everytime all they can do is try to tech far enough away that you won't have time to charge an arrow to reach them before they shield. Its really crazy how affective arrows are now. Great for alittle space, tech chaseing, gimping, and ending combo strings. 4% is still a stupid damage... Come on sakurai why does link always have to be worse than others.

Anyone wanna try and put a number to this matchup? I'll go for 40/60- falco mabye 45/55 if we get that fair in the next six months.
**** it I'm gonna say 45/55. Until I get ***** really hard by a falco main, and can't find anyway to do better. 45/55
 

Shadic

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Don't play Falco on Final Destination. :(

This answers Shadic's post perfectly.
It's a move that doesn't kill until relatively high percentages (typically out of combo range), and still has the Sakurai Angle on the second hit.

Sigh. I don't see how it can be said that it's a good move at the moment.
 

VietGeek

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No really try the auto-updater. IDK if Bio set up the SM site to compile .zips for the manual download or not.

But the Link .pac I got off the auto-updater has the Link .pac with a 35 degree angle.
 

Shadic

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Eh. I'll wait for everything to start working properly, then. I don't want to use the auto-updater.
 

Akuma2120

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Falcon's knee is still amazing in Brawl+ but you don't see it thrown out and killing like it did in Melee. It is much more specialized in Brawl+. Yes his knee is worse but it is still a good move with good applications, just like Link's f-air.
C. Falcon is a high tier character in Melee, it's understandable to give him a slight nerf on that move, whereas Link has always been low-bottom tier, if he ever had anything good about him why take that out or change it when trying to make him more viable?

I personally don't care too much about whether the F-Air is changed or not, I just thought your analogy was weak.
 

Shadic

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C. Falcon is a high tier character in Melee, it's understandable to give him a slight nerf on that move, whereas Link has always been low-bottom tier, if he ever had anything good about him why take that out or change it when trying to make him more viable?

I personally don't care too much about whether the F-Air is changed or not, I just thought your analogy was weak.
Not to mention, the function of the knee remained relatively the same. Brawl's Link Fair is definitely different than the Melee version. Or the Smash64 version.
 

Swordplay

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Im surprised Vanz. I thought Pika and Jiggs were some of Links worst matchups. I thought Links high hitstun and heavy weight meant easy rests for jiggs. I guess a good SH game can help though.

But Pika!!! I'm surprised. Pika has always been tough for me.

Congrats.
 

Cia

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Any videos?
I'm waiting for uploads from JCaesar and Chibo

Who was your second?
Sheik + Toon Link

Im surprised Vanz. I thought Pika and Jiggs were some of Links worst matchups. I thought Links high hitstun and heavy weight meant easy rests for jiggs. I guess a good SH game can help though.

But Pika!!! I'm surprised. Pika has always been tough for me.

Congrats.
Well won 1 match against jiggs and lost the next. After that I switched. Puff is just one of those match ups i know really well because I main her in 64, melee, and vBrawl lol. If you figure out the correct spacing, she's not so bad. (and killing her from 50ish with Dair is nice =D)

but thanks. And I'll post the videos as soon as they're online.
 

JCaesar

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They're all gone then. Chibo made new "private" folders on everyone's SD card for B+ and when we switched to P:M, I deleted it, not realizing all the replays saved to the SD card were in there. Sorry. It didn't occur to me at the time.
 

VietGeek

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and just then VanZ's smile turned upside down JCaesar's heart grew three times larger.
 

Shadic

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That's what it was. Now it's.. Meh. Play with it and see. Matt and I don't find any use of it.
 

Rambo Hayabusa

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I just watched some vids of me playing and notice I hella still do pivot boosts. Is it still good for anything in plus? Im thinking its much much less useful now that theres dash canceling and dashdancing.

Also w/ dair canceling much earlier now, is it much better to fastfall it now and risk missing w/ its smaller down time now b/c I'm not sure the full hopped dairs from platforms for dair cancels are so sensible w/ the faster pace of the game.

Anyways jab cancels into another set of of jab cancels and ledge cancelled dairs are sex
 

Akuma2120

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I just watched some vids of me playing and notice I hella still do pivot boosts. Is it still good for anything in plus? Im thinking its much much less useful now that theres dash canceling and dashdancing.

Also w/ dair canceling much earlier now, is it much better to fastfall it now and risk missing w/ its smaller down time now b/c I'm not sure the full hopped dairs from platforms for dair cancels are so sensible w/ the faster pace of the game.

Anyways jab cancels into another set of of jab cancels and ledge cancelled dairs are sex
What's a ledge-cancelled dair?
 

VietGeek

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dair on a ledge of the stage or platform and it'll cancel into neutral airborne state

like in melee...kinda
 

Rambo Hayabusa

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eh I actually just use it as a bailout from dair spamming when ppl think they'll be able to punish the dair landing lag, then you can counter attack... with another dair possibly.

Did I not mention the dair spam? :laugh:

Anyways, pivot boosts pointless now?
 
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