Link+ [Updated 10-8 - Farewell F-Air, we hardly knew ye]

[Shadic]

Computers don't learn.

Also, I updated the main post yesterday.

 

[Swordplay]

I think the move is being used wrong.

There are no "bread and butter" legit combos that involve fair.

Fair has 2 uses now.

1. Spacings (retreating F-air)
2. I PLATFORM ABUSE. Fair is a great platform poker just like it was in VB. The first hit knocks them off/hits and the 2nd hit ***** them.
3. This is more more useful one and its called IMPROVISATION COMBOS.


But in all seriousness Shadic that is JUST how its going to be. Sometimes people will get out. Its basically near impossible to link air hits on the same move into each other. (Unless you make them unnaturally fast like a sonic/falco fair) The move can only be coded for the optimal scenario. Since Link can fly around at different momentum in different directions, the linking hits often won't work.

I wish I can give you a better dumbed down answer but I can't because your NOT stupid shadic and the real answer is somewhat complicated. Can people get out of Fox's Fair or Snakes Nair if not used right? YES. Thats just how these moves work. You'll just have to learn when to use the move. Thats the best I can say.


(Major Props on the update shadic)

 

[Shadic]

I think I play too much Smash64 Link to get used to B+ Link Fair. Oh well.

Now what to add?

 

[Demacrez]

Computers don't learn.

Also, I updated the main post yesterday.

I beg to differ. They actually start copying my combos after a while. One point they use their normal combos, I play that character for a long period of time, I play against CP and then all of sudden I start seeing my combos being implemented in their attacks. Though broken and not complete.

Now, I'm going to check the OP.

 

[Shadic]

Computers don't learn. I can type up a proof for it, but it's kind of annoying. Has to do with replays.

 

[zxeon]

I know what you're talking about shadic. When you have a replay that is out of sync with your current codes the AI will not actually fight you while you suicide as opposed to reproducing the same movements when you have a working replay. Which pretty much means that the AI will react the same way every time.

But I have watched the AI learn what works and what doesn't. If you stand still and constantly shield grab AI Captain Falcon he won't approach you as aggressively.

 

[WheelOfFish]

See, I don't know what to think about the AIs learning or not. I initially thought they couldn't because of replays, but then my computers started crouch taunting me and taunting multiple times when I died.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

yeah. the thing that freaked me out was when a level nine dedede killed me and started to crouch taunt like the self-satisfied ***** he is. O_O

 

[Demacrez]

So do mine! I usually do that after I win and they started doing it too! Those *******s!

 

[Rikana]

I got some ideas but I'd like to hear from people before actually going any further with this.

1. Nothing big. It probably won't even change Link the way he is but just add options. The ability to turn left or right while charging the arrow (like Pit's). There may not be a point to this but like I said, it just adds an option.

2. zAir to have more airtime? Link's zAir has a lot of trouble with short characters unlike Toon Link's zAir. Link must be much closer to hit short characters with zAir since it retracts quickly.

Discuss. And please do refrain from flaming. Debating is all that's needed.

 

[Shadic]

Link can already flip around the bow at the beginning if you do it right. And I think the Zair is fine. Link does have trouble with shorter characters, but so does everybody else.

 

[Swordplay]

Link has less trouble with short characters than you think. Nair and jab are just used more as other moves don't work as well.

Right now, I can only see fast characters giving Link trouble as they can bait Link and attempt to take advantage of his start up lag.

Though I do agree w/ Shadic. Link doesn't need any more buffs.

 

[skstylez]

I wish they focused link on smash 64, he was badass back there, even though low tier, his skills were amazingly fitting

 

[Rikana]

Link can already flip around the bow at the beginning if you do it right. And I think the Zair is fine. Link does have trouble with shorter characters, but so does everybody else.

I didn't mean a reverse neutral B, I meant to turn while charging. Its harmless if added and adds more options. Regardless, it isn't something concerning Link's gameplay since it barely does anything more.

I guess the zAir could be left as is then. It's just quite hard to approach short characters since his fAir has quite a lengthy startup and his zAir doesn't really even reach them (if short).

 

[Shadic]

I guess the zAir could be left as is then. It's just quite hard to approach short characters since his fAir has quite a lengthy startup and his zAir doesn't really even reach them (if short).

Use Nair instead?

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I just had to pop in to say that I absolutely detest these 3 things Link had received:

1. Fsmash1 hitting at a 25 angle. Those angles aren't tossed out like candy with moves that hit as hard as that. There's no reason to go for Fsmash2 like before.
2. UpB last hit hitting ridiculously hard. I'm all for Link's aerial UpB linking better, but increasing damage by 3 for no reason while keeping the same KBG is a stupidly large difference.
3. Jab 2 auto-linking into things that aren't jab 3, including more jab1s. Jab3 is a mistake now if you do it.

You can keep all the other crap Link got.

 

[shanus]

I just had to pop in to say that I absolutely detest these 3 things Link had received:

1. Fsmash1 hitting at a 25 angle. Those angles aren't tossed out like candy with moves that hit as hard as that. There's no reason to go for Fsmash2 like before.
2. UpB last hit hitting ridiculously hard. I'm all for Link's aerial UpB linking better, but increasing damage by 3 for no reason while keeping the same KBG is a stupidly large difference.
3. Jab 2 auto-linking into things that aren't jab 3, including more jab1s. Jab3 is a mistake now if you do it.

You can keep all the other crap Link got.

You could already jab cancel before into other things as you mentioned, i think the window was altered by 2 frames, but I honestly forget. TBH, I don't really care about this change, but I'm pretty sure this was one of the highest requested changes for link.

UpB as a combo/kill move is like exclusively reliable used from downthrow at like 130%+

Fsmash I agree with

 

[matt4300]

Yeh, Fsmash angle was one of the first changes... With newly found kill power and plethora of kill moves the angle doesnt need to wtf **** chars with bad recoverys at 60.

 

[Demacrez]

Give Link's Galeboomerang a poison wind and we're golden. XD

 

[goodoldganon]

I just had to pop in to say that I absolutely detest these 3 things Link had received:

1. Fsmash1 hitting at a 25 angle. Those angles aren't tossed out like candy with moves that hit as hard as that. There's no reason to go for Fsmash2 like before.
2. UpB last hit hitting ridiculously hard. I'm all for Link's aerial UpB linking better, but increasing damage by 3 for no reason while keeping the same KBG is a stupidly large difference.
3. Jab 2 auto-linking into things that aren't jab 3, including more jab1s. Jab3 is a mistake now if you do it.

You can keep all the other crap Link got.

No but seriously the F-smash change is silly. The rest is fine with me.

 

[Swordplay]

I could live without F-smash.

The jab linking is what is keeping Link together now. Its one of his only safe moves as well as a bread and butter combo starter. Without this, Link becomes very exploitable.

The Up-B hitting hard.......TBH, Uair will kill a few %'s later. I really don't care all that much about KB. I think people complain to much about it.......But HE NEEDS them to connect like they do. I Think its very important to keep the SDI modifier and the nice hitbox on the back side of his up-b


@GOG. You make me laugh....

 

[Shadic]

If the boomerang was improved in some way, I'd be totally up for removing that FSmash angle. He's still not top-tier material (I'd say around DK, which is what we're going for) though, so I feel that a nerf like that should be compensated in some way.

Because that Fsmash angle is awesome.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Adding 4 frames of IASA to Jab2 is a *lot*. It's close to what Samus's first jab does right now because jab 2 pulls inward. Jab 2 also has KB growth, so you'll be getting those setups anyway without additional IASA as damage gets to kill percents. As far as it's safety, it was also made so that you can Jab3 2 frames sooner.

Link is stacked right now to a point where he definitely is not lacking combos.

 

[monkeyx4]

Adding 4 frames of IASA to Jab2 is a *lot*. It's close to what Samus's first jab does right now because jab 2 pulls inward. Jab 2 also has KB growth, so you'll be getting those setups anyway without additional IASA as damage gets to kill percents. As far as it's safety, it was also made so that you can Jab3 2 frames sooner.

Link is stacked right now to a point where he definitely is not lacking combos.

^^ lol ryoko i get what ur talkin about link now. i was fighting someone and i killed them at 90 with a fsmash and when i did like the second fsamsh it didnt kill them until like 100%or 110 but if yall would chang ethat could yall make the Gale boomerang suck up the opponent better or do something else effective other then that link is great

 

[Demacrez]

If the boomerang was improved in some way, I'd be totally up for removing that FSmash angle. He's still not top-tier material (I'd say around DK, which is what we're going for) though, so I feel that a nerf like that should be compensated in some way.

Because that Fsmash angle is awesome.

^^ lol ryoko i get what ur talkin about link now. i was fighting someone and i killed them at 90 with a fsmash and when i did like the second fsamsh it didnt kill them until like 100%or 110 but if yall would chang ethat could yall make the Gale boomerang suck up the opponent better or do something else effective other then that link is great

Give Link's Galeboomerang a poison wind and we're golden. XD

*Cough cough cough*

 

[Shadic]

Well, and bombs. Don't forget that.

 

[matt4300]

Has anyone tried the PSA char zero? His range shield hitbox coming back perfectly fits links gale rang in that it hits multiple times but can still be gotten out of easily...

 

[GHNeko]

Can I ask link's a question?

Why do I not see any Link's ever grab out of hitstun from combos?

 

[Shadic]

It's a total pain in the *** to grab somebody in the air, if that's what you're talking about. Tethers should go back to behaving like Smash64, where you can grab people who are in the air easily.

 

[Mattnumbers]

shadic you are only 4 posts away from your 1337 post, be wary.

Also I agree that tether grabs should catch people out of the air better.

 

[GHNeko]

Are you guys sure it's not just poor timing?

 

[Shadic]

Positive. You can't grab somebody that's jumping. Try it on Mario on Battlefield.

 

[Swordplay]

Can I ask link's a question?

Why do I not see any Link's ever grab out of hitstun from combos?

Shadic is right. Its a total pain as it usually doesn't work well in practice even if it was attempted to be fixed.....my attempts at least are usually punished accordingly.

As for the boomerang thing, I'm not even asking for it. Link is good now. Id really have to see how much of a nerf F-smash would be before considering it.

 

[yami_sora]

I'm guessing no one wants to have the fmash 1st hit link better into the 2nd hit, similarly to Toon Link's right?

 

[Shell]

Can I ask link's a question?

Why do I not see any Link's ever grab out of hitstun from combos?

This was made impossible by Sakurai (no tether could grab out of hitstun) although I'm 99% sure I fixed this several months ago by modifying the correct BitVar-- all tether characters should now be able to grab out of hitstun. So get using it, y'all!

Edit: if it's having too much trouble grabbing out of the air, then that means the grab-box is too small.

 

[Shadic]

Not really. It doesn't grab characters who are in the air who aren't in hitstun. And it's pretty ridiculous trying to grab people who are in hitstun in the air, it's just asking for a retaliation attack for when you surely miss.

 

[Finns7]

true about tethers it would help him out alot...ryoko lol i havnt been here in a while but i kno u are not complainin about buffs although i wasnt feelin the upb thing either........anywayyz are there any new vids of link?

 

[Mattnumbers]

Yeah unless it's snake using Cypher I usually avoid trying to grab out of the air with Lucas. It's just so risky. I would imagine the same applies for Link.

Needs moar 64 tether grab range.

 

[Demacrez]

He needs a longer Z-Air. XP

But seriously, the F-Smash is a bit **** with its ungodly angle. Making the tornado in the Gale Boomerang should have small multi-hits with no KB or BKB. Similar to Prolimar's blue Pikmin when tossed and attached to an opponent. I think that would make a good trade off.

 

[Swordplay]

He needs a longer Z-Air. XP

True it use to be important in the early stages of BP but now you can win with hardly using it. his metagame has evolved beyond it