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Link Social Thread

BryE

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lol Hylian, when's the last time you played Tirno? Hell, when's the last time you were actually PART of the Texas Melee scene?
You moved a LONG time ago dawg, haha. I haven't seen you at any Texas tournaments recently. Tirno at his very best is good enough to make bracket at a major (albeit, not get far).
Also, losing 80-90% of the time is a GROSS overexaggeration. That's closer to how it is for Melee Link. IMO, Link/Falco is 60:40, maybe 65:35 at worst.
Link/Fox a little worse than that. Yeah, I lost all my matches to Tirno with Link, but he's MUCH, MUCH better than me, I still managed to catch him off guard from time to time. I've played Falcos closer to my skill level and either beaten or gone even with them.
And if Link really is in good hands, those MUs will only get better. The spacies (fox and falco at least) aren't going to change.

I actually believe that Link vs Falco is one of his worst matchups Worse than Link vs Fox. Mainly because Link can't do much when Falco approaches him with lazers since it shuts down almost everything that he does. Link can at least try to stop Fox's approaches since Fox has nothing to really cover himself except dash dance baiting and his shine.

Trying to approach? Falco can just lazer you to keep you at bay.
Trying to out camp Falco? Good luck since he can throw out more lazers than Link can throw out bombs/boomerangs/arrows.
Trying to play defensively? Lol nope. Lazer.

Not to mention, even though Fox has more mobility than Falco, Falco can still run circles around Link easily. Coming from experience though, I think Link vs Fox and Link vs Falco are both very hard matchups for link.I honestly think the matchup is at worst 70:30 or 65:35.

As I stated before, whenever I play Falco players, usually they don't know too much about the Link vs Falco matchup. The most they know is that Link has an Up B that ***** their recovery if they don't sweetspot correctly and that he can easily get Dthrow tech chases whenever he can. Not to mention he can juggle them pretty effectively. So the few surprises that Link has in P:M can possibly throw them off since they aren't too familiar fighting against him.

I honestly believe this was part of the reason why I kinda threw off a good amount of Falco players in tournament since they probably never played a decent Link player before in Melee. Let alone played one in P:M.

I've beaten several spacie players with Link, that doesn't really mean much because all I did was abuse their lack of knowledge.
^

This basically.
 

BRLNK88

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Austin, Texas
I actually believe that Link vs Falco is one of his worst matchups Worse than Link vs Fox. Mainly because Link can't do much when Falco approaches him with lazers since it shuts down almost everything that he does. Link can at least try to stop Fox's approaches since Fox has nothing to really cover himself except dash dance baiting and his shine.

Trying to approach? Falco can just lazer you to keep you at bay.
Trying to out camp Falco? Good luck since he can throw out more lazers than Link can throw out bombs/boomerangs/arrows.
Trying to play defensively? Lol nope. Lazer.

Not to mention, even though Fox has more mobility than Falco, Falco can still run circles around Link easily. Coming from experience though, I think Link vs Fox and Link vs Falco are both very hard matchups for link.I honestly think the matchup is at worst 70:30 or 65:35.

As I stated before, whenever I play Falco players, usually they don't know too much about the Link vs Falco matchup. The most they know is that Link has an Up B that ***** their recovery if they don't sweetspot correctly and that he can easily get Dthrow tech chases whenever he can. Not to mention he can juggle them pretty effectively. So the few surprises that Link has in P:M can possibly throw them off since they aren't too familiar fighting against him.

I honestly believe this was part of the reason why I kinda threw off a good amount of Falco players in tournament since they probably never played a decent Link player before in Melee. Let alone played one in P:M.



^

This basically.
I even throw off Falco players in Melee by going Link, but they figure out his weaknesses within a couple matches and I get *****.
I don't deny Falco/Fox are still tough for Link, and that there are definitely better characters to pick against them, the main argument is that the MUs are more MANAGEABLE for Link than they were in Melee. Sure, Fox and Falco can run circles around him, but no one's tech skill is perfect. All Link needs is that little opening to get a combo started, and he can kill both of them VERY quickly. Another thing Link can use to his advantage is that spacie players can get overaggressive against him.
I honestly think Falco's lasers are only a big problem on stages like FD, as I stated earlier, platforms can help a lot. Never stay on the same level as Falco.
Fox is still gonna do his Fox stuff regardless. If the devs really want to balance the game, no MU should be as bad as 70:30. This is still Demo 2, Link can acquire more tricksies.

Last time I played Tirno was indeed quite awhile ago at a UT melee tournament where I beat him in winners and losers iirc. I've kept track of players he's beaten at nationals, saw him at apex and I think at genesis2. I would say I have a pretty good idea of his skill level, texas in general is one of the weakest states for melee as well lol. I've visited texas several times since I've left and played people there since then. Since moving from texas I've seen just how much better other states are at melee heh while texas's melee scene pretty much just died off. No offense to anyone there I love all the texas people, but it really turned into mainly a brawl state and that sucked for the melee scene there.

You are drawing random conclusions like "if link is in really good hands, those MU's will only get better" when that doesn't logically make sense at all. Spacies as characters have so many more options that putting them in better hands against a more limited character is only going to widen the gap. You are just stating things as a matter of fact. Show me options I wasn't aware of that link has to deal with pressure. Show me how to circumvent fox's baiting tools and falcos stage control with one of the slowest characters in every aspect(movement,wd,framedata) in the entire game. I don't like to put numbers on match-ups because it's incredibly arbitrary and doesn't really say much but I really can't see how Link would be a viable character to use against spacies in high level play.
lol no, when's the last time you played Mojo? Jake XIII? Austin RC? Darkrain isn't very active but he's still damn good, as is Xelic. Texas still sees PLENTY of Melee, I think you're out of it dude, Houston still sees plenty of regular tournaments, Austin and Dallas host from time to time. Wobbles even shows up to a decent number of them. No, unfortunately Texas is not very active in PM, but give it time. Texas WAS mainly a Brawl state, but there are several active Melee players, AND they're finally starting to travel OOS.
You've obviously played WAY more people than I have so I submit to that, I'm simply making conclusions based on what I've seen and played (moreso seen), they're not arbitrary. Show me some matches of your Link against some very good PM spacies and maybe I can further structure my opinions. I was referencing the quote you made earlier "Don't worry, Link is in good hands.". I assumed you meant there are ppl on the dev team that will make sure Link gets the necessary buffs, unless you meant something else.
 

BryE

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I even throw off Falco players in Melee by going Link, but they figure out his weaknesses within a couple matches and I get *****.
I don't deny Falco/Fox are still tough for Link, and that there are definitely better characters to pick against them, the main argument is that the MUs are more MANAGEABLE for Link than they were in Melee.
I know that. I've stated it before in my earlier posts. Essentially I was agreeing with you.



Sure, Fox and Falco can run circles around him, but no one's tech skill is perfect. All Link needs is that little opening to get a combo started, and he can kill both of them VERY quickly. Another thing Link can use to his advantage is that spacie players can get overaggressive against him.
Generally speaking, space animals do not need perfect tech skill to constantly put pressure against Link since:

  • He's slow.
  • He has poor mobility.
  • He can't do much while being pressured other than OoS Up B and OoS Nair.
  • He takes too long to throw out his projectiles compared to how fast Fox/Falco/Wolf can reach him.
Plus a good spacey player wouldn't just rush in blindly unless they are on autopilot. Just "hoping" a space animal player to mess up their execution isn't enough to offset the entire match. Especially since Link needs to play at his best in order to do well against a good Fox/Falco.



I honestly think Falco's lasers are only a big problem on stages like FD, as I stated earlier, platforms can help a lot. Never stay on the same level as Falco.
Even when Link has platforms to work with, they can still be a problem to deal with. One of the better stages that Link can play on against a Falco is PS2 and PS1 (PS1 not so much due to the transformations)
 

Hylian

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I even throw off Falco players in Melee by going Link, but they figure out his weaknesses within a couple matches and I get *****.
I don't deny Falco/Fox are still tough for Link, and that there are definitely better characters to pick against them, the main argument is that the MUs are more MANAGEABLE for Link than they were in Melee. Sure, Fox and Falco can run circles around him, but no one's tech skill is perfect. All Link needs is that little opening to get a combo started, and he can kill both of them VERY quickly. Another thing Link can use to his advantage is that spacie players can get overaggressive against him.
I honestly think Falco's lasers are only a big problem on stages like FD, as I stated earlier, platforms can help a lot. Never stay on the same level as Falco.
Fox is still gonna do his Fox stuff regardless. If the devs really want to balance the game, no MU should be as bad as 70:30. This is still Demo 2, Link can acquire more tricksies.



lol no, when's the last time you played Mojo? Jake XIII? Austin RC? Darkrain isn't very active but he's still damn good, as is Xelic. Texas still sees PLENTY of Melee, I think you're out of it dude, Houston still sees plenty of regular tournaments, Austin and Dallas host from time to time. Wobbles even shows up to a decent number of them. No, unfortunately Texas is not very active in PM, but give it time. Texas WAS mainly a Brawl state, but there are several active Melee players, AND they're finally starting to travel OOS.
You've obviously played WAY more people than I have so I submit to that, I'm simply making conclusions based on what I've seen and played (moreso seen), they're not arbitrary. Show me some matches of your Link against some very good PM spacies and maybe I can further structure my opinions. I was referencing the quote you made earlier "Don't worry, Link is in good hands.". I assumed you meant there are ppl on the dev team that will make sure Link gets the necessary buffs, unless you meant something else.

I thought texas was really good at melee until I moved out of texas. AustinRC was one of my main training partners in melee, I've played with him countless times. Xelic was from my city and I've been playing against him since like 2004 lol and I've played all the people you listed many many times. I very certainly know how good they are. They are very good melee players to be sure, but they would be considered pretty average in say california. Darkrain also live here again AFAIK he left texas.
My "Link is in good hands" statement is because I am on the dev team lol.
 

Sanity's_Theif

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No offense, but with that kind of mentality, it's kinda acceptable for you to lose constantly if you're thinking like that.

The matchup is horrible but have some faith man. 80% - 90%? Ouch.
I'm not a pessimist, I don't go into a match thinking I'm going to win or lose, I go in curious to see if I can win. And there's no point in trying to win against a spacie with Link at high level play, it's a horrible matchup like you said, you're only chance is to use another character for Link's bad matchups in a tournament

Back in 2.1, a Melee Falco player named Bden decided to play Project M with me since it seemed pretty similar to him when he was using Falco while I was at a tournament. He used Fox for the first few matches we played and Falco last match and, iirc, I won all of the matches we played. And when I tried using Snake against a few people who used space animals I kinda got wrecked (mainly because I was still picking him up at the time)
He was a horrible spacie player then, or he didn't know the matchup, and 2.1 didn't have the more melee feel 2.5 has so I can imagine he screwed up a lot of timings, I do switching from 2.5 falco to melee falco still


Well that's kind of a problem since the advice that I've given to you before probably doesn't work against space animals. Not to mention you cannot really camp out space animals since they have really good mobility and approaches compared to the rest of the cast, mainly Falco. I generally focus more on close quarter combat than anything else so I know what to do when space animals starts pressuring me. The only time I start abusing my projectiles is if I'm on a really big stage and it's usually bombs/boomerang that I'll use in the matchup.
General advice man, not specific

And you want to stay far away from spacies with Link, they wreck him at close range, get up close to spacies? That's horrible advice right there, this should be common sense, you can't camp them out because of their mobility, and they wreck Link at close range, that's why it's a bad matchup, Link doesn't have the tools to deal with them

IMO, if you're having a lot of trouble against space animals, you should send in your videos in the video archive thread against good space animal players. That way I can figure out what exactly you're doing against them since I'm not sure what you do in a normal match.
There's no recording equipment when I go to see the others in providence, if you live in RI you should go to providence on wednesdays

lol Hylian, when's the last time you played Tirno? Hell, when's the last time you were actually PART of the Texas Melee scene?
You moved a LONG time ago dawg, haha. I haven't seen you at any Texas tournaments recently. Tirno at his very best is good enough to make bracket at a major (albeit, not get far).
Also, losing 80-90% of the time is a GROSS overexaggeration. That's closer to how it is for Melee Link. IMO, Link/Falco is 60:40, maybe 65:35 at worst.
Link/Fox a little worse than that. Yeah, I lost all my matches to Tirno with Link, but he's MUCH, MUCH better than me, I still managed to catch him off guard from time to time. I've played Falcos closer to my skill level and either beaten or gone even with them.
And if Link really is in good hands, those MUs will only get better. The spacies (fox and falco at least) aren't going to change.
So you get beat by a good spacie player and say it's not a bad MU? It doesn't sound like you're playing any good spacie players. I play spacies too, if anyone uses Link, I wreck them and I'm not even a good spacie player, the matchup against all spacies with Link is horrible, I'd say 70:30

I've beaten several spacie players with Link, that doesn't really mean much because all I did was abuse their lack of knowledge.
This, my only real chance against a spacie is their lack of MU experience, like if I through a boomerang and they rush in, they'll forget that the boomerang is coming back, they get smacked, and I get a free Up-B
 

Tirno

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Just my luck, I decide to name search for once, only to discover I'm getting trash talked in the Link boards.

@Hylian: you have insulted my honor. I demand satisfaction!



I challenge you to duel!
 

Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
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Just my luck, I decide to name search for once, only to discover I'm getting trash talked in the Link boards.

@Hylian: you have insulted my honor. I demand satisfaction!



I challenge you to duel!
Lmao I wouldn't say you were being trash talked, but if you'd like to play in melee or PM again the next time I see you I'm down :).
 

Darkgun

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So, I've been somewhat following the Link vs. Spacies conversation here and there. I figured I would take a look at what Link has against them that might give him either an edge or at least a better chance. Now, I must confess that little ol' me has only myself and the computers to play with (and only a light amount of Link play), so some of this might not actually work on a competent opponent.

The first blaring thing I noticed was that if you manage to get 'em offstage, you practically won the stock. Link seems to have the most amazing edgeguarding tools in the game, with anything from his nair, to all of his specials, to dtilt and dsmash. I wasn't able to test against an opponent who chose to use a phantasm (foolish computers do not realize its potential), however once they triggered Fire[insertanimal], they lost. Why? Link's dair. It will, in worst case, trade hits, meaning Link is usually launched upwards, while his opponent is launched further out and away from the stage (or against the stage if the attack lands too far out in relation to the opponent's position). From what it feels like, this edgeguard trick is more of a read. Oh, and if you miss, there's a risk of losing a stock, depending upon how well your opponent recovered (whether or not they crossed over the ledge threshold) and whether you attempted to land the hit offstage (usually performed out of a short hop). One other thing that I think might work is forcing a shine stall, as this allows for more time to position for the edgeguard. Heck, it is like Link doesn't have to even leave the stage! And, if for some reason you can't get in position to guard, having a bomb means you can strike them as they return, assuring some form of damage, and time to adjust spacing.

Next is utilt. First of all I would like to note that I use Link's tether grab to tech chase, and then that uthrow against a spacie means a free utilt, which can lead into practically anything you want, with a few exceptions. Low percents? How about a DA, Spin Attack, or FSmash? Boomerang? Utilt again, maybe? High percent? Maybe Uair, Nair, or Bair? This is mainly because of how easy spacies are to juggle vertically, and that many of Link's grounded attacks have vertical launch. After a point, uthrow is replaced by dthrow, and upon reaching this threshold the throw combos quite well into Spin Attack, and it will stay that way for a long time.

And then there's the laser issue. Well, at least with Falco and Wolf. And for the solution I found, one should direct their attention to the front of the character. Link's shield is awesome, and when crouched, the only point that can be struck from the front is the top of Link's head. Sure you can't move forward, but hey, isn't that why they're shooting at ya in the first place? To pressure their opponent into an uncomfortable advance? Now at least you're on even terms. And if you want to walk forward, I usually manage one or two steps between each laser (at least, against computers).

Now, as I mentioned, it is just me and the bots (and I feel my lack of Link play may lead to some amateur assumptions), so if someone can get some playtesting on this or debunk some of the theory, that would be lovely. Despite these features, the matchup still looks to be difficult, mainly because one misplaced attack on Link's part can lead to a painful punish. Overall, it feels like one should play the matchup at the tip of Link's reach to allow for short retreats and safer offensives.
 

Hylian

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So, I've been somewhat following the Link vs. Spacies conversation here and there. I figured I would take a look at what Link has against them that might give him either an edge or at least a better chance. Now, I must confess that little ol' me has only myself and the computers to play with (and only a light amount of Link play), so some of this might not actually work on a competent opponent.

The first blaring thing I noticed was that if you manage to get 'em offstage, you practically won the stock. Link seems to have the most amazing edgeguarding tools in the game, with anything from his nair, to all of his specials, to dtilt and dsmash. I wasn't able to test against an opponent who chose to use a phantasm (foolish computers do not realize its potential), however once they triggered Fire[insertanimal], they lost. Why? Link's dair. It will, in worst case, trade hits, meaning Link is usually launched upwards, while his opponent is launched further out and away from the stage (or against the stage if the attack lands too far out in relation to the opponent's position). From what it feels like, this edgeguard trick is more of a read. Oh, and if you miss, there's a risk of losing a stock, depending upon how well your opponent recovered (whether or not they crossed over the ledge threshold) and whether you attempted to land the hit offstage (usually performed out of a short hop). One other thing that I think might work is forcing a shine stall, as this allows for more time to position for the edgeguard. Heck, it is like Link doesn't have to even leave the stage! And, if for some reason you can't get in position to guard, having a bomb means you can strike them as they return, assuring some form of damage, and time to adjust spacing.
Yep, spacies should always die off the edge against Link. They can pretty much not return as you can cover almost all recovery options.

Next is utilt. First of all I would like to note that I use Link's tether grab to tech chase, and then that uthrow against a spacie means a free utilt, which can lead into practically anything you want, with a few exceptions. Low percents? How about a DA, Spin Attack, or FSmash? Boomerang? Utilt again, maybe? High percent? Maybe Uair, Nair, or Bair? This is mainly because of how easy spacies are to juggle vertically, and that many of Link's grounded attacks have vertical launch. After a point, uthrow is replaced by dthrow, and upon reaching this threshold the throw combos quite well into Spin Attack, and it will stay that way for a long time.
Links tether grab is horrible for tech chasing because it's a tether grab and slower grabs, not to mention he one of the worst dash speeds in the game. Uthrow is very % dependent. You don't actually get anything a low %'s, at mid %'s your best option is usually uair and at high %s you can sometimes get a fair off an uthrow.

And then there's the laser issue. Well, at least with Falco and Wolf. And for the solution I found, one should direct their attention to the front of the character. Link's shield is awesome, and when crouched, the only point that can be struck from the front is the top of Link's head. Sure you can't move forward, but hey, isn't that why they're shooting at ya in the first place? To pressure their opponent into an uncomfortable advance? Now at least you're on even terms. And if you want to walk forward, I usually manage one or two steps between each laser (at least, against computers).
This doesn't work at all against smart opponents and ones good at aiming lasers.


Now, as I mentioned, it is just me and the bots (and I feel my lack of Link play may lead to some amateur assumptions), so if someone can get some playtesting on this or debunk some of the theory, that would be lovely. Despite these features, the matchup still looks to be difficult, mainly because one misplaced attack on Link's part can lead to a painful punish. Overall, it feels like one should play the matchup at the tip of Link's reach to allow for short retreats and safer offensives.
You don't get to choose where to play the match-up, spacies have way too much stage control for that. Hope my replies were helpful.
 

Problem2

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I haven't mained or played P:M Link in a long time now (let's face it, he's solid against a lot of characters, but there are still a few really bad match-ups sprinkled in). Last week, we had a Melee tournament for the first time in a long time, and I thought it was time to try low tier Link again. That probably doesn't make sense for me to be okay with playing a bonefied low tier in Melee and not use the superior version when playing Project M, but I value winning at all cost more in P:M than in Melee.

Anyways, I had a lot of fun with Melee Link despite how hard winning is, so I started playing him in Project M, and everything is just clicking better now. I'm still not convinced that Link is my path to victory atm, but I do think he's a lot of fun to play. I could see myself using Link in certain match-ups or in some MM's.

The character is fun.
 

E2xD

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Hmm, I don't want to deter away from the Link vs Spacies matchup, but this is a discussion thread. I really enjoyed Link in 2.5. I haven't played Link in 2.1 so I really cannot give an adequate response to which is better (which seems to be 2.1). Anyways, I am fairly happy with his moveset and how he is fairly strong against most characters (with the exception of spacies, Sheik, and Marth). Not trying to draw a discussion to who he is strong or weak against. I however want to point out that I want the Navi Side taunt back. If he is supposed to represent Melee Link (Ocarina of Time), then why the hell did they remove the Navi/fairy taunt? Just my one gripe against Link. (I am totally fine with his current side taunt, but I think Navi should be back in some form.)
 

Juushichi

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I had a fun set of friendlies that lead into a MM with Ally's Ike.

I lost 1-3, after winning game one, but they were all pretty much super close games. This character is really fun. Maybe there will be vids, but I don't think Apasher was recording then. We'll see though.
 

Heero Yuy

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Though I haven't downloaded Project M yet, I've decided that I'll main Link (due to him being my first main in Melee, but dropped him because of so many tough matchups.)

Just wanted to know... Although he's been buffed a lot from Melee, would practicing him in the game help me out once I download P:M? Also wanted to know if Peach is a good secondary to cover up any bad matchups.

(Sounding like a noob because this is the first time I'm ever doing anything P:M-related. :p)

P.S. Any visible P:M Link players I can study? I've seen only InternetExplorer, but would be amazed if Lord HDL or Skler played this game.
 

NaijaboyIrin

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Hylian said:
I've got a lot of work to do + Rat is really good + Wolf is hard lol.
This reminds me; we need a new matchup thread. One that has all the matchup data in the OP or something for essy access. I dunno what happened to monkeyx4, but I don't think he's coming back anytime soon...
Hylian said:
I can put this vid in the video thread, if you'd like.
Seeing as I've been on hiatus for a couple of months, my adivce might not be too helpful, but you didn't seem to use fullhop nair against Rat too often. That might have helped to halt his approach.
Also, is boomerang really not worth using to you? It might not be as good as it was in 2.1 but it IS an option. Why not use it like melee boomerang?
 

Beorn

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OMG OMG OMG Jcaez's 2.6 stream showed off Link changes... DAT rang! Looks like you can tilt it for short distance and smash for normal. Also looks like it comes out really fast and has no regrab animation!!!!

I can only assume they fixed the hitbubble problems from watching the match. I can pretty much confirm hitbubbles are fixed. I know utilt and second hit Fsmash is.

I will watch the matches more to see if I can find anything else.

http://www.twitch.tv/jcaesar/b/425412441

At 4:38:28

EDIT: Boomerang seems to come back much faster and go out much faster.

Looks like weak throw (tilt?) rang doesn't have the power hit at the start of the rangs flight.

@_@ I'm starting to get worried that there is no more power hit to rang at all. That would suck.

Bow cancels when landed like most projectiles now. Seems to end faster in general even grounded so he can shoot arrows faster and short hop arrow ends before he gets to the ground.


ehhhhh, looks like they just made him better at camping aside from the hitbox fixes. His rang is so fast and looks like it can't combo and his arrows are much faster. They seem to serve the same purpose now: pelting over and over with lame weak hits.

I hope I am wrong about this and the longer throw still has the strong hit.

Oh god, please don't tell me fair got weaker...

I would like to hear what Hylian thinks about these vids.
 

Dng3

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So Link's boomerang went through another redesign when 2.5's change was due to "changed so it resembled melee/64's angle more".

What was wrong or broken about 2.1 rang? It just seems random changes are made to him, which annoys Link players.

2.1 rang was balanced and loved by everyone. What justified 2.1 > 2.5 > 2.6 rang?
 

Strong Badam

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2.1 rang was balanced and loved by everyone.
you'd think that, but every time i described 2.1 boomerang as "a moving falco shine" (that's approximately what it was in 2.1) most people thought about it for a sec and then agreed that it was ********.

as a general rule, if your character falls apart when one thing is changed, either you're fraudulent or your character is, and he needs a lot more than a change reverted to be effective in tournament.
 

Beorn

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you'd think that, but every time i described 2.1 boomerang as "a moving falco shine" (that's approximately what it was in 2.1) most people thought about it for a sec and then agreed that it was ********.

as a general rule, if your character falls apart when one thing is changed, either you're fraudulent or your character is, and he needs a lot more than a change reverted to be effective in tournament.

I agree with this entirely. The problem from 2.1 to 2.5 wasn't that he fell apart it's that he was just nerfed with no compensation. He couldn't grab out of the air with chain shot and rang was made worse.

If you take away two big options from a character with no compensation they may not fall apart, but you can be damn sure they will be worse.
Honestly taking away aerial grab was the worst thing you could do to an aggressive Link. Now with this new rang and better arrows camping looks like it will be an even more viable strategy and aggression will get you punished. The best think for rang would be to mix the new rang weak throw with 2.5 strong throw, like Ivysar.
 

GMaster171

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The grab change was fine, standing CGs to kill from 0 was silly.

In other news, exited for 2.6 Link, might try him again, just sorta stopped playing him for some reason :/
 

Beorn

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The grab change was fine, standing CGs to kill from 0 was silly.

In other news, exited for 2.6 Link, might try him again, just sorta stopped playing him for some reason :/
Didn't think that was worth mentioning because everyone who keeps up with link knows this. Makes me wonder about some other characters throws though like Ganons D-throw. I agree with the grab change. I don't agree with the rang change.

Describing it as "moving falco shine" would work except it's missing all the things that make shine good, like being frame one, invincible, and jump cancel able. The only real thing that it had was hitstun and a good angel. Sounds like it's not even as good as falcos Dair in that light.
 

Strong Badam

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except it's a projectile, so whether or not it's jump cancelable/invincible/frame 1 aren't relevant. think of instead of simply a shine moving, falco is moving horizontally right then left shining every frame and a second falco can be at any location on the stage ready to follow up and the first falco will come back to that second falco. he can even be in the midst of being combo'd or edgeguarded and it'll still come back to him, shining every frame on its way back. there's significant startup to this moving shine, but afterward, that's what it was. and it was disgusting.
 

Dng3

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except it's a projectile, so whether or not it's jump cancelable/invincible/frame 1 aren't relevant. think of instead of simply a shine moving, falco is moving horizontally right then left shining every frame and a second falco can be at any location on the stage ready to follow up and the first falco will come back to that second falco. he can even be in the midst of being combo'd or edgeguarded and it'll still come back to him, shining every frame on its way back. there's significant startup to this moving shine, but afterward, that's what it was. and it was disgusting.
So is that simply just in theory? I understand the argument behind this but I just don't recall 2.1 boomerang making him a one trick pony. In practice, it seemed he a solid character during 2.1 who used more than just his boomerang to be effective, unless the backroom had a different experience from the rest of us.
 

Beorn

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except it's a projectile, so whether or not it's jump cancelable/invincible/frame 1 aren't relevant. think of instead of simply a shine moving, falco is moving horizontally right then left shining every frame and a second falco can be at any location on the stage ready to follow up and the first falco will come back to that second falco. he can even be in the midst of being combo'd or edgeguarded and it'll still come back to him, shining every frame on its way back. there's significant startup to this moving shine, but afterward, that's what it was. and it was disgusting.
It's not as good as a shine. The one thing that made it amazing was the return hits. In that case just make the return hit angle worse and give him back his other hits.
 

Hylian

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OMG OMG OMG Jcaez's 2.6 stream showed off Link changes... DAT rang! Looks like you can tilt it for short distance and smash for normal. Also looks like it comes out really fast and has no regrab animation!!!!

I can only assume they fixed the hitbubble problems from watching the match. I can pretty much confirm hitbubbles are fixed. I know utilt and second hit Fsmash is.

I will watch the matches more to see if I can find anything else.

http://www.twitch.tv/jcaesar/b/425412441

At 4:38:28

EDIT: Boomerang seems to come back much faster and go out much faster.

Looks like weak throw (tilt?) rang doesn't have the power hit at the start of the rangs flight.

@_@ I'm starting to get worried that there is no more power hit to rang at all. That would suck.

Bow cancels when landed like most projectiles now. Seems to end faster in general even grounded so he can shoot arrows faster and short hop arrow ends before he gets to the ground.


ehhhhh, looks like they just made him better at camping aside from the hitbox fixes. His rang is so fast and looks like it can't combo and his arrows are much faster. They seem to serve the same purpose now: pelting over and over with lame weak hits.

I hope I am wrong about this and the longer throw still has the strong hit.

Oh god, please don't tell me fair got weaker...

I would like to hear what Hylian thinks about these vids.

I don't need to watch the videos..I'm in the PMBR and helped a ton with designing 2.6 link lol.

He's actually better now at mid-close range combat and a little worse at camping, his rang has a combo hit and a non-combo hit, that's all I'll really say about the changes for now until we release 2.6. Don't worry guys, I strongly feel link in 2.6 is more fun and more viable than 2.5 and has a greater diversity of tools at his disposal. I disliked 2.5 rang greatly, the rang changes were talked about a ton and are awesome trust me.

Edit: I also though 2.1 rang was kind of dumb design-wise. I liked it because it was really good and fun, but it was a little silly lol. I like 2.6 rang the most so far though.
 

B.W.

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I hate 2.6 rang. I'll probably never touch Link again so long as it remains what it is, but that's just me.
 

Hylian

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I hate 2.6 rang. I'll probably never touch Link again so long as it remains what it is, but that's just me.

Have you played it? That's how I felt about 2.5 rang lol. Do you know anything about 2.6 rang or have you just seen it?
 

Shadic

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As Hylian said, 2.6 boomerang is easily the best rang out of any P:M version for close-quarters combat. The move works quite well for for continuing strings that Link otherwise couldn't quite maneuver to.

The speediness helps far more than the short distance hurts. And you wouldn't be getting a combo hit off of a long-distance hit anyways, so all it does it make it so he can't pester at a distance quite as well.
 

B.W.

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I have played it. I dislike how it feels in every way.

I don't know, it just rubs me the wrong way.
 

Hylian

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I'll go over the rang changes a bit and my thoughts on them and leave the other stuff as a surprise in detail for you guys to help calm some fears.

2.6 rang is much shorter and much faster than 2.5. It has a combo hit active the first 6 frames which does 16% and sends them at a similar angle to 2.1 rang, letting you combo off it easily if you get the combo hit. In addition to this, we removed the catching animation in every action except standing still. You can be running or jumping and it won't interrupt you anymore causing you to get punished for using your rang close and not being able to avoid it. The quickness of rang along with some other tools link has now makes him much better at close to mid range fighting and helps him deal with pressure. You can continue combos now that you couldn't before with rang, and you can use rang as an effective approach tool, a defensive mid-range tool, overall it's a lot more versatile and you don't need to fear it harming you or being used against you. It's much more dynamic than 2.5 or 2.1 rang's uses, try it out in combos next time you play and don't try to use it like 2.5.

Also, where did you play 2.6?
 

B.W.

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I sure hope T.Link gets the no catch animation (aside from standing still) buff.
 

Beorn

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I'll go over the rang changes a bit and my thoughts on them and leave the other stuff as a surprise in detail for you guys to help calm some fears.

2.6 rang is much shorter and much faster than 2.5. It has a combo hit active the first 6 frames which does 16% and sends them at a similar angle to 2.1 rang, letting you combo off it easily if you get the combo hit. In addition to this, we removed the catching animation in every action except standing still. You can be running or jumping and it won't interrupt you anymore causing you to get punished for using your rang close and not being able to avoid it. The quickness of rang along with some other tools link has now makes him much better at close to mid range fighting and helps him deal with pressure. You can continue combos now that you couldn't before with rang, and you can use rang as an effective approach tool, a defensive mid-range tool, overall it's a lot more versatile and you don't need to fear it harming you or being used against you. It's much more dynamic than 2.5 or 2.1 rang's uses, try it out in combos next time you play and don't try to use it like 2.5.

Also, where did you play 2.6?

Ok, now all of that sounds amazing. My main problem was the no combo hit. I never saw it in Jcaez stream and I combed over each Link match. Sounds ****ing great. That sounds exactly like what I could ever want from a Link rang. Thanks for clearing that up.

I can't wait for this now. So rang is a close range projectile setup as well as a mid-range pelting projectile and arrows are a long range option. Sounds damn near perfect.

It really hurts first impressions when people don't know what they are doing with the character.

Mmmm thinking about the situations that this could be applied to regarding Link matchups gets me so psyched! This just might be the Link update that finishes him as a character.
 

Hylian

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Yeah, that's the main reason I wanted to clear this up. It's very different than 2.1 or 2.5 rang so it takes some getting used to.
 

Hylian

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What was wrong with the 2.1 boomerang again?

Depends on who you ask heh. I wasn't in the PMBR until 2.5 came out so I don't know the discussion that went into 2.5 rang and why it was changed exactly. I'm happy with 2.6 though so I don't think it's anything to worry about.
 

B.W.

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I've been to Oro's place. I haven't played 2.6 exactly, but it looked like this Link was the same as the one I played at Oro's house.

So yeah, it's not the first time I got upset at it. I got upset that it stayed really.

I'd like to also say, I don't think that his boomerang is actually bad as it is. I simply don't like it because its uses are totally different than how I originally used to use the boomerang.

It's honestly a very clear buff in Link's combo game. I just don't like it because it feels weird lol.
 

Dng3

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I'll go over the rang changes a bit and my thoughts on them and leave the other stuff as a surprise in detail for you guys to help calm some fears.

2.6 rang is much shorter and much faster than 2.5. It has a combo hit active the first 6 frames which does 16% and sends them at a similar angle to 2.1 rang, letting you combo off it easily if you get the combo hit. In addition to this, we removed the catching animation in every action except standing still. You can be running or jumping and it won't interrupt you anymore causing you to get punished for using your rang close and not being able to avoid it. The quickness of rang along with some other tools link has now makes him much better at close to mid range fighting and helps him deal with pressure. You can continue combos now that you couldn't before with rang, and you can use rang as an effective approach tool, a defensive mid-range tool, overall it's a lot more versatile and you don't need to fear it harming you or being used against you. It's much more dynamic than 2.5 or 2.1 rang's uses, try it out in combos next time you play and don't try to use it like 2.5.

Also, where did you play 2.6?
I was already happy to hear that you supported the new change but this really put my fears to rest. Thanks Hylian!
 
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