Link Social Thread

[Hylian]

Also keep in mind, it's often better to space at the tip when comboing at high %'s because the moves will do less knockback. So at low %'s you want the inner hits, high %'s you want the tip, and at mid you want a mix of both based on what character they are playing.

 

[GHNeko]

Ridiculously good or bad? Because I would argue the first myself. It's not perfect but the tier list disparity is a much smaller gap than most fighting games since they've gotten both the Guilty Gear and Blazblue rosters only going as low as B tier.

Both.

I feel Arcsys doesn't believe in versatile characters a huge majority of the time as a lot of characters from their games are rather extreme in their respective archtype with little to no wiggle room in how you play the characters.

It's especially like this in P4A. BBCP seems to do better but I stopped playing BB so I don't know anymore. GG is guilty of this as well lol.

It bothers me because in my eyes, based on my perspective, it's just not good design for fighters. But that's my opinion.

They're also like the japanese father of combo breaker comeback mechanics. Which I dislike by nature, however with good execution and design, I can be okay with them.

But the games themselves aren't bad. They're actually pretty fun. They do some really creative and innovative things. Especially with Guilty Gear. Magnitude of depth in that game without being overly complex, just high in execution. So it makes up for the rest of their seemingly staple issues. They can just be really lame/dumb at times.

 

[Sarix]

Also keep in mind, it's often better to space at the tip when comboing at high %'s because the moves will do less knockback. So at low %'s you want the inner hits, high %'s you want the tip, and at mid you want a mix of both based on what character they are playing.

That's what I was thinking about when I said spacing.

Both.

I feel Arcsys doesn't believe in versatile characters a huge majority of the time as a lot of characters from their games are rather extreme in their respective archtype with little to no wiggle room in how you play the characters.

It's especially like this in P4A. BBCP seems to do better but I stopped playing BB so I don't know anymore. GG is guilty of this as well lol.

It bothers me because in my eyes, based on my perspective, it's just not good design for fighters. But that's my opinion.

They're also like the japanese father of combo breaker comeback mechanics. Which I dislike by nature, however with good execution and design, I can be okay with them.

But the games themselves aren't bad. They're actually pretty fun. They do some really creative and innovative things. Especially with Guilty Gear. Magnitude of depth in that game without being overly complex, just high in execution. So it makes up for the rest of their seemingly staple issues. They can just be really lame/dumb at times.

I haven't touched P4A so I can't say anything on that.

I actually think that Arcsys is fine with versatile characters and play styles given that they have combo breaker and anti-stall mechanics in the same game. A lot of the versatile characters tend to be versatile by utilizing their unique mechanics to the fullest along with other tools in their arsenal. Characters that come to mind in BB are Tsubaki, Jin, Hazama, Mu-12, Litchi, Platinum, Bang, all of whom have the ability to deviate from an intended offensive or defensive play style without becoming a much weaker character. All of these characters are also noted for having well rounded tool sets for multiple situations compared to the rest of the cast.

I'm more of the mindset of having at least 1/3 of the cast be versatile while the rest are varying degrees of offensive or defensive specialists. My problem with a mostly versatile cast is that it homogenizes the cast too much makes strengths and weaknesses of each character too uniform. It would also take away any potentially unique traits each character has because most of the cast would likely have a tool to handle it. The spread of offensive, defensive, and versatile characters in BB especially I find to be an ideal roster for a fighting game that caters a third of its cast to each of the 3 basic strategies.

I actually like that they implemented combo breaker mechanics personally since they're universal and limited enough that they can only save a character who's bad under pressure once or twice. I find they help fighting games from being over-centralized on combos. Bursts being grab-able also allows the attacker to try and bait it and punish with a throw. The combo breakers also help to balance out Negative Penalty and Danger Mode to allow players to be able to handle defensive situations but not be polarized on the defensive.

 

[Fortress]

Also keep in mind, it's often better to space at the tip when comboing at high %'s because the moves will do less knockback. So at low %'s you want the inner hits, high %'s you want the tip, and at mid you want a mix of both based on what character they are playing.

Which is why we can occasionally get away with a string of seven U-tilts on a really dumbfounded Bowser.

 

[GHNeko]

I haven't touched P4A so I can't say anything on that.

I actually think that Arcsys is fine with versatile characters and play styles given that they have combo breaker and anti-stall mechanics in the same game. A lot of the versatile characters tend to be versatile by utilizing their unique mechanics to the fullest along with other tools in their arsenal. Characters that come to mind in BB are Tsubaki, Jin, Hazama, Mu-12, Litchi, Platinum, Bang, all of whom have the ability to deviate from an intended offensive or defensive play style without becoming a much weaker character. All of these characters are also noted for having well rounded tool sets for multiple situations compared to the rest of the cast.

I'm more of the mindset of having at least 1/3 of the cast be versatile while the rest are varying degrees of offensive or defensive specialists. My problem with a mostly versatile cast is that it homogenizes the cast too much makes strengths and weaknesses of each character too uniform. It would also take away any potentially unique traits each character has because most of the cast would likely have a tool to handle it. The spread of offensive, defensive, and versatile characters in BB especially I find to be an ideal roster for a fighting game that caters a third of its cast to each of the 3 basic strategies.

I actually like that they implemented combo breaker mechanics personally since they're universal and limited enough that they can only save a character who's bad under pressure once or twice. I find they help fighting games from being over-centralized on combos. Bursts being grab-able also allows the attacker to try and bait it and punish with a throw. The combo breakers also help to balance out Negative Penalty and Danger Mode to allow players to be able to handle defensive situations but not be polarized on the defensive.

You play more BB than I do so I guess I'll just have to take your word for it when it comes to BB's current state of affairs.

I do disagree that an extremely versatile cast will be homogenized because there are a wealth of pre-existing archetypes in a fighting game to draw from, as well as a mountain of methods of achieving those archetypes but in different ways. there is also creating your own archetype if you are intuitive/creative enough to do so haha. And you can do all this while giving characters unique flairs/mechanics/gimmicks that allow them to create their own personality and have their own identity.

I tend to disagree/dislike with combo breaker mechanics, but I can understand and respect why they're used, especially in games that are more combo centric as opposed to reset heavy. i'm personally just not a fan of mechanics that give players the opportunity to comeback I suppose. i understand that they're universal and limited that also have flaws and can be baited, I'm just against them by nature. nothing really bothers me more than getting that last opening only to get bursted and redo the whole neutral game again and it's just a trend in fighting games that I don't agree with. I feel it's better to equip a player with a plethora of defensive options that all fill different niches but when used properly allow a player to regain his barrings, vs a get out of jail free card that encompasses a plethora of situations for you. Smash does this well by giving you a multitude of options from shield and from the ledge.

Mechanics like Negative Penalty and Danger State, feel like aren't good either. Punishing a character for running away and turtling when they're perfectly legitimate (although lame) strategies isnt cool imo. I can see what they're trying to do, but I feel there are other methods to detract incentive from those strategies, rather than just stick the player with a penalty and tell them to "dealwithit"

I could elaborate on this more if you want over PM or bring it over to the project M social thread haha. While this is a social thread, it's the link social thread, so i don't want to hijack it for too much longer.

 

[Sarix]

I'm fine with using a PM since it would be rather random to bring it to the main social thread and would likely confuse people.

 

[EmptySky00]

Yeah it's intentional. Almost all of his hitboxes have the most knockback in the center.

Could this be a tool against CCing? Or is the difference not significant enough?
And is there any difference in shield stun for the center hitbox? Or is the difference purely % / KB?

 

[Hylian]

Could this be a tool against CCing? Or is the difference not significant enough?
And is there any difference in shield stun for the center hitbox? Or is the difference purely % / KB?

Yes, this can be a tool against CC. Hint hint we are actually changing DA hitboxes to be more consistent with the rest of his hitboxes in 3.0, which means you'll actually be able to use DA at low %'s now because the shoulder hitbox will be good against CC, but on the other hand the move requires more precision(which I like, it's more dynamic and fun and is better at certain %'s depending on what hitbox you hit with).

I'm not sure about shield stun honestly.

 

[EmptySky00]

Yes, this can be a tool against CC. Hint hint we are actually changing DA hitboxes to be more consistent with the rest of his hitboxes in 3.0, which means you'll actually be able to use DA at low %'s now because the shoulder hitbox will be good against CC, but on the other hand the move requires more precision(which I like, it's more dynamic and fun and is better at certain %'s depending on what hitbox you hit with).

I'm not sure about shield stun honestly.

Right. Because I got ****ed up in a tournament by a Peach player because I couldn't deal with CCing (and I was playing like trash that day, but that's besides the point) and now I could apply that.

 

[Sarix]

So this weekend I'm going to a tourney so wish me luck. :D

 

[Problem2]

A technique that I've been secretly working on, but kind of gave up on using it competition is a quicker, lower to the ground z-air. I was trying to find a way to cover a far distance at ground level with a melee attack for characters like Metaknight, Sonic, and Squirtle. I first tried doing short hop, airdodge, zair, but Link falls too quickly and the zair doesn't cover that area I want. What I figured out though is that if you slightly airdodge upwards before you zair, the momentum from your airdodge will counter act your natural falling momentum and Link will float in place while doing the entire zair.

So to do the technique, you jump and quickly airdodge while barely, just BARELY tilting the joystick up, then pressing z. If done right. Link will float at near ground level and fire his z-air. It's not too hard to do in training, but the difficulty comes in getting your muscle memory to barely tilt during a fight. I think once mastered, it will be an incredibly effective poke against short characters.

 

[Sarix]

I mostly just jump let the chain extend then fast fall for a Zair wall to make it a ground poke.

Edit: Btw thanks for the likes guys. I feel the love.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Yes, this can be a tool against CC. Hint hint we are actually changing DA hitboxes to be more consistent with the rest of his hitboxes in 3.0, which means you'll actually be able to use DA at low %'s now because the shoulder hitbox will be good against CC, but on the other hand the move requires more precision(which I like, it's more dynamic and fun and is better at certain %'s depending on what hitbox you hit with).

I'm not sure about shield stun honestly.

You're changing the dash attack? Didn't know there was even a shoulder hitbox, but I would never run that close to a character and dash attack, I find it better to zone most of Link's moves, because of the extra endlag added to the dash attack in 2.6 I rarely bother with it anymore, believe it or not, just that little bit more makes a huge difference

 

[Hylian]

You're changing the dash attack? Didn't know there was even a shoulder hitbox, but I would never run that close to a character and dash attack, I find it better to zone most of Link's moves, because of the extra endlag added to the dash attack in 2.6 I rarely bother with it anymore, believe it or not, just that little bit more makes a huge difference

Link has like..the fastest dash attack in the game lol(or one of tied with shiek I think), if you aren't bothering with it you're missing out.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Link has like..the fastest dash attack in the game lol(or one of tied with shiek I think), if you aren't bothering with it you're missing out.

I don't bother with it because now it's easily punishable because of the added endlag, and it makes follow-ups more difficult, increasing the risk for the same reward as before

And it's just easy to see coming, when you get punished enough for using a certain move, you either learn to not use the move or use it in different situations, I've yet to find another situation for dash attack outside of comboing spacies at low % who DI away after I hit them with an Utilt or Usmash

 

[Hylian]

I don't bother with it because now it's easily punishable because of the added endlag, and it makes follow-ups more difficult, increasing the risk for the same reward as before

And it's just easy to see coming, when you get punished enough for using a certain move, you either learn to not use the move or use it in different situations, I've yet to find another situation for dash attack outside of comboing spacies at low % who DI away after I hit them with an Utilt or Usmash

It's one of the easiest moves in the entire game to follow-up on >_>. Also, you can combo into it no one is forcing you to use it in neutral. Things like Rang/Bomb/Bair/dthrow/nair into dash attack are very common and lead into pretty much any aerial on most characters. Almost(if not) every dash attack in the game in easy to punish on block/whiff, that is how they are designed, you are severely limiting yourself if you think DA is bad.

 

[Fortress]

'Rang > Dash Attack > U-tilt is a common opener for me.

 

[NickRiddle]

Dash attack is how I play fast-fallers, that move is amazing.

 

[Sarix]

Link's dash attack as a tool to get in... yeah no. But it's excellent combo filler with its follow up options and is on par with his DACUS as a combo tool imo.

 

[Fortress]

I feel as if the dash attack is safer than his DACUS. You can be grabbed out of a DACUS much easier than a dash attack because the hitboxes don't come up nearly as quickly, and not straight forward like Link's dash attack. At least, that's the experience I've had. It's not like it's super easy to get grabbed out of a DACUS, or hit out of it, but I feel like it leaves you more open than the dash attack, despite how slow it is.

 

[Sarix]

It depends on the situation imo. Early on I prefer dash attack but on floaties towards mid percentages DACUS becomes the most reliable way to catch them for follow-ups.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

It's one of the easiest moves in the entire game to follow-up on >_>. Also, you can combo into it no one is forcing you to use it in neutral. Things like Rang/Bomb/Bair/dthrow/nair into dash attack are very common and lead into pretty much any aerial on most characters. Almost(if not) every dash attack in the game in easy to punish on block/whiff, that is how they are designed, you are severely limiting yourself if you think DA is bad.

I'm not saying it's hard to follow-up on, just that against characters that don't stay in hitstun long, the added endlag makes it so you can't follow up anymore

I know it's good for comboing, but I generally find better otpions

I don't think it's bad, just situational, and I find other options more appealing for comboing

Link's dash attack as a tool to get in... yeah no. But it's excellent combo filler with its follow up options and is on par with his DACUS as a combo tool imo.

This

 

[Lethalx]

If your using link's dash att at low % with no set ups your doing it wrong.

 

[Fortress]

If your using link's dash att at low % with no set ups your doing it wrong.

"Why do I keep getting grabbed out of dash attacks against somebody at 0% "

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Sigh...more reasons for link mains to use dash attack, I don't think my body can contain all the excitement .

 

[Lethalx]

Link needs his Melee bombs back imo. And they need to shorten how far he throws his bombs to Melee length b/c on Pm he has the brawl length and that's too high.

Also he needs to change the size of his bombs to melee size, they were a lot bigger before and didn't explode if you touched it.
it had that lingering effect when you dropped it on someone or just threw another bomb on it.

Ive seen a 3.0 stream and if I'm right did ya change the angle of his arrows?

 

[Fortress]

I had it explained to me that increasing the bomb durability can potentially **** with Link's bomb recovery tech, which I would be pretty against.

 

[Lethalx]

I had it explained to me that increasing the bomb durability can potentially **** with Link's bomb recovery tech, which I would be pretty against.

Well couldn't they just increase the strength of links Last hit of his Up-B to break it?

But i know they can increase the size of his bombs and adjust how far he throws his bombs to melee's length. If they can't change the length due to his Agt that shouldn't matter b/c he's in the sky and if I'm right his throwing length in the sky is different from him throwing on ground; hopefully because since he gets a boost using the Agt it shouldn't matter.

However If not could they some how redo his Bomb tech? i really know having a size difference and having his bombs thrown shorter would help him a lot.

Lmbo tbh melee bomb tech is easier than Pm version imo

 

[NickRiddle]

P:M version is MUCH easier.

 

[Lethalx]

P:M version is MUCH easier.

Eh... well it was easier to do on 2.0 and 2.1 which i believe you were able to do it more than once. i Don't know why ya changed or adjusted that if you don't mind clarifying that for me.

Because when ever i attempt to do it im always swatting it away. if im right this how you do it

Take out bomb>Atg>Up- b asap because if you wait its not going to work.

 

[Fortress]

Because when ever i attempt to do it im always swatting it away. if im right this how you do it

That means you're going into your up-special too soon. Increasing the power on Link's u-special would **** with other things, namely making the move more viable in general where it already is as a grounded kill attack.

 

[Hylian]

Eh... well it was easier to do on 2.0 and 2.1 which i believe you were able to do it more than once. i Don't know why ya changed or adjusted that if you don't mind clarifying that for me.

Because when ever i attempt to do it im always swatting it away. if im right this how you do it

Take out bomb>Atg>Up- b asap because if you wait its not going to work.

Nothing was changed about anything you are talking about.

Also, PM bombs > melee bombs as far as usefulness goes.

 

[Bomber7]

Also, PM bombs > melee bombs as far as usefulness goes.

Please explain.

 

[Lethalx]

That means you're going into your up-special too soon. Increasing the power on Link's u-special would **** with other things, namely making the move more viable in general where it already is as a grounded kill attack.

Alright ill check the timing again, but i know i cant do more than one bomb tech than in previous versions im guaranteed they limited it to only one time.

Nothing was changed about anything you are talking about.

Also, PM bombs > melee bombs as far as usefulness goes.

Besides all the bomb techs stuff bigger bombs and the lingering effect beats pm bombs imo

 

[Fortress]

Please explain.

You can throw them farther, they blow up more easily, they fall in a way that lets you bomb punt effectively, and they still glance off of shields for some janky bomb-shield pelting.

 

[Lethalx]

You can throw them farther, they blow up more easily, they fall in a way that lets you bomb punt effectively, and they still glance off of shields for some janky bomb-shield pelting.

Why would you want link to his bombs into space? it goes too freaking far... Melee length was wayy better

 

[FlashingFire]

Link needs his Melee bombs back imo. And they need to shorten how far he throws his bombs to Melee length b/c on Pm he has the brawl length and that's too high.

having his bombs thrown shorter would help him a lot.

Melee length was wayy better

Could you please explain why you think the Melee bomb throw length is better? So far you haven't given any concrete evidence.

 

[Fortress]

Alright ill check the timing again, but i know i cant do more than one bomb tech than in previous versions im guaranteed they limited it to only one time.

The triple punt called, it would like to have a word with you. Also, check out some of the janky bomb pelting goodness that Hylian's brought to the table. Dude has shattered people's shields with rapid reflects/AGT.

I like the range increase. I can pelt people from further away with faster throws, recover from more incredible distances than ever before, and they're durable enough to pelt people's shields with over and over.

 

[Hylian]

Please explain.

I honestly think the length thing is a non-factor, I don't mind them either length. The way pm bombs interact with shields gives link a lot more options with them then he had in melee because he now has access to options like instant throwing and AGT. Being able to punt bombs is another plus as well as laying them around for random IT's. He just has more options with PM bombs.

 

[Lethalx]

Could you please explain why you think the Melee bomb throw length is better? So far you haven't given any concrete evidence.

Well to start off go tto fixed camera on melee throw a bomb up look how high it goes and then go to fixed camera on pm and throw his bomb up see the differences. (Now that we have a visual lets discuss) Link throwing length in melee is better imo b/c now your opponents would have to play it safe coming in since they see your bombs coming down and because no like getting hit in general there going to be reluctant Even more to come in and in fact help his zone/spacing game.

We all know link is a zoner, then why on earth is he using one of his best item's outside his area? How is throwing his bombs into space helping him? Your opponents just basically runs towards you b/c they know that bomb isn't coming down soon and when it does they have enough time to get out the way or its not even going to hit them due to the fact ya are fight and moving around the stage.


Having his melee range would get give him more of a chance to do his Agts Ats, thus allowing him to move around the stage faster and actually promoting link mains to use the move instead of waiting for your bomb to come down from orbit and wasting a bomb. You just have more options like

Throw bomb up>if he's runs to you and shield>jabx2>bomb comes back then Agt down to get out of close combat situation like fighting fox.


Another one Throw bomb up>take out another one >Sh bomb plant> bomb comes down Agt at them waveland back and you got another one just be creative with it.

In such a fast paced game can ya'll tell me what's so good with skyrocketing a bomb in the air? And what is wrong with Melee's height compared to Pms aka brawl.

Didn't want this long but o well