Link Social Thread

[Ariyo]

Does anyone know how to do an aerial while holding a bomb? I can't seem to figure it out and do it when I least want to.

 

[Bomber7]

Does anyone know how to do an aerial while holding a bomb? I can't seem to figure it out and do it when I least want to.

I've run into this while playing TL in the past. It's a weird phenomenon I find occurs when I'm knocked into the air while holding a bomb. There's a window of opportunity for you to use an aerial after being hit, but after that window has closed, you just throw it. I'm assuming that's what you mean.

 

[Ariyo]

I wasn't aware of that actually. I just figured there was a way to attack while holding a bomb at any time.

 

[Bomber7]

There's a trick to use your Fsmash when holding a bomb. When you press down B to pull out your bomb, press and hold down the A button shortly after, then proceed to spam press your c-stick to fsmash. I haven't seen much use for the AT, obviously because it's situational, but the more you know, right?

 

[Ariyo]

hmm, usmash might be a more viable option there, but sounds interesting nonetheless.

EDIT: Assuming usmash would even be possible

 

[Bomber7]

hmm, usmash might be a more viable option there, but sounds interesting nonetheless.

EDIT: Assuming usmash would even be possible

I don't remember if it does. It's worth looking into next time you're in training mode.

 

[l3thargy]

Hylian (and Strongbad, if you're reading), can you two consider speaking with the rest of the staff to figure out why we don't have bombs like these yet?

I think Link will truly be top-tier viable once he has nukes like in the instruction manuals.

that would be so good lol, like they could make it so you would have to charge down-b for a large bomb or have it so the bomb gets bigger as link holds it

planting them nukes would be so OP

Edit: On a side note has there been any new info on changes to Link in demo 3.0

 

[Sarix]

If anything does get changed about Link I hope his Jab1, Ftilt, and Dtilt become a pinch faster, along with making the 2nd hit of Fair useful or easier to connect.

 

[NaijaboyIrin]

I still think that Link's Bair should be improved. I know that P:M isn't SD Remix but the addition of some weight kb, some slightly changed angles, and higher priority would help here.
I saw another post that I feel suggested Link needed a stronger Bair, but what he really needs is a Bair that covers him from behind better.

 

[monkeyx4]

If anything does get changed about Link I hope his Jab1, Ftilt, and Dtilt become a pinch faster, along with making the 2nd hit of Fair useful or easier to connect.

Lol His tilts are fine. Thy just need to get his hitboxes fixed, make the bomb tech a little easier for doing it the 2nd time b/c i find it easier to do it on melee lol.

Also i would to have links bomb throwing height shorten like in melee, its goes to high in brawl and i like it to linger around if you just drop it on someone shield and not just explode on contact.

 

[Sarix]

Lol His tilts are fine. Thy just need to get his hitboxes fixed, make the bomb tech a little easier for doing it the 2nd time b/c i find it easier to do it on melee lol.

I don't think they're bad but I feel they could do more for his neutral ground game if they were a touch faster. His Ftilt would serve as a much more reliable horizontal anti-air in addition to being a more useful spacing tool if it was 2-3 frames faster. Dtilt I would only want faster by the same amount of frames as Ftilt to give Link a better close range poke outside of jab. On his Jab1, I feel like for a ranged jab it's bit sluggish as well and gives him less application to use jab cancelling compared to most of the cast.

Link shouldn't have fast normals because that would make his design lop-sided but I feel a 2-3 frame speed buff is not unreasonable for his Jab1 (2F only), Ftilt, & Dtilt to keep them below average speed roughly.

This is just my opinion I don't expect the PMBR to consider and apply them.

 

[curry9186]

Here's my question. Has anyone playing Link figured out how to SH > Bair > Waveland consistently?

 

[Bomber7]

I mean, if I wanted to do it consistently, I'm pretty sure I could do it. My problem is, when I'm actually fighting someone, I'm not really thinking about what little AT or gimmick I'm gonna do next, I just do what I think should logically happen.

 

[Ariyo]

So I was thinking about Link's mobility options which seem to be his biggest problem. What if he was given a decent wavedash? I don't know what kind of coding that would call for, but a wavedash like Samus' or Ness' would probably greatly improve his movement.

It'd also be a nice little buff to his jumping speed.

 

[Bomber7]

I find Link's mobility fine if you're fighting at mid or close range. Long range is a different story. I think the P:M devs mentioned that they wanted to make Link a mid range beast.

 

[curry9186]

Wavelanding out of Bair would be a fantastic mobility option if it wasn't damned difficult to perform. Link gets a ton of range from the slide which works well for mix-ups, mind games, etc.
Otherwise I'd say he moves fine. He's better at stuffing mobility.

 

[NaijaboyIrin]

Link shouldn't have fast normals because that would make his design lop-sided but I feel a 2-3 frame speed buff is not unreasonable for his Jab1 (2F only), Ftilt, & Dtilt to keep them below average speed roughly.

I agree somewhat. I think that if they buff Jab 1 the fastest it should get is Marth/Roy speed for their Jab 1s.
Personally, I don't think that his tilts need much speeding up. I would like them to be further distinguished from Fsmash/Dsmash respectively. Ftilt and Fsmash have a BKB difference of 5 and the same KBG. It would be nice if Ftilt were more focused on low angle gimping like SD remix(though not as extreme in strength) and Fsmash were more powerful at killing from center stage. Changes like these would make his moveset more varied and imo, more fun.

Here's my question. Has anyone playing Link figured out how to SH > Bair > Waveland consistently?

I have. It's really fun to do sometimes, but the reward for WD out of Bair is way less than the effort it takes to learn it. It is also useless against shorter characters.

 

[curry9186]

I have. It's really fun to do sometimes, but the reward for WD out of Bair is way less than the effort it takes to learn it. It is also useless against shorter characters.

This saddens me. I can get it to work sometimes, but the execution is too precise. I'd love for this to be a viable tech because of what I've seen Mario do with the same thing.

 

[Sarix]

I agree somewhat. I think that if they buff Jab 1 the fastest it should get is Marth/Roy speed for their Jab 1s.
Personally, I don't think that his tilts need much speeding up. I would like them to be further distinguished from Fsmash/Dsmash respectively. Ftilt and Fsmash have a BKB difference of 5 and the same KBG. It would be nice if Ftilt were more focused on low angle gimping like SD remix(though not as extreme in strength) and Fsmash were more powerful at killing from center stage. Changes like these would make his moveset more varied and imo, more fun.

I actually referenced Marth's frame data before posting, the jab would be the same active time as Marth. I think the earliest active frames for his tilts should never go past being a touch slower than Marth's as the greatest extent for speed. I wouldn't want Link with fast normals or even on par with Marth's tilts since it would only make him a slower Marth with projectiles. I just feel that the speed of Link's normals is adequate but they don't mask his mobility problems as well as they could if they were a pinch faster. I would actually want Ftilt to have less knockback overall for better follow ups while still being a spacing tool and having the additional speed to function as a better horizontal anti-air.

 

[Hylian]

I've been working on some pretty sick link technology. Once I get good enough at it I'll try and post some videos .

 

[NaijaboyIrin]

I've been working on some pretty sick link technology. Once I get good enough at it I'll try and post some videos .

Please do!

Oh, and in reponse to the Link Dair argument a few pages back:
[Collapse=Explain this]


[/collapse]

 

[Sarix]

I've been working on some pretty sick link technology. Once I get good enough at it I'll try and post some videos .

I will have to see this when it comes out. I can always more to my Link notes/self guide.

 

[Fortress]

Oh, and in reponse to the Link Dair argument a few pages back

What's to explain? TLink has hitboxes in his face, and Link doesn't have hitboxes at the tip of his blade. They're both janky.

Besides, who in their right mind using Link's Dair is trying for placement; it's a timing kill move.

I didn't say that correctly. I was trying to say something along the lines of 'Link's D-air is at its strongest right when it comes out, and is kind of poo after that, so why worry about fancy hitboxes if the timing of the attack is what matters, and what people will be using it for?'

If that makes any sense.

 

[Sarix]

Considering how high risk, high reward the move is the hitboxes are alright to me on Dair. Even if the hitbox was moved to the tip I still wouldn't use it often with a 20 frame L-cancelled landing making it easily punishable.

 

[Fortress]

Same. I think the hitboxes are fine as is. I avoid the move because of how slow it is, not because of the box placements.

Which is pretty much exactly what you just said. Why did I open my mouth.

 

[Sarix]

Same. I think the hitboxes are fine as is. I avoid the move because of how slow it is, not because of the box placements.

Which is pretty much exactly what you just said. Why did I open my mouth.

Hehe it's all good. But Dair's landing lag even when L-cancelled alone already limits its application so I find the argument for better hitboxes rather aimless.

 

[Fortress]

I don't see the point in adjusting the boxes. I mean, when I find myself using it, it's as a finishing attack, and only right when it pops out ala Jigs' Rest. My opponent should ideally be off of the stage after landing it, so I don't need to worry about what comes after the initial hit.

As a matter-of-fact, I'd rather the move send more horizontally than upwards, and only have one hit. None of that bouncing crap which turns me off from the move so much. I hate getting shielded while using that move, but I guess its raw killing potential balances that out.

 

[Sarix]

I mostly use the move after a Dthrow to secure kills so I don't really deal with the bouncing. But I'm not interested in improving Link's already solid air game so much as slightly improving his ground game.

 

[Fortress]

He just needs to run a little faster. I mean, maybe a tad slower than Mario, but close to his speed. Speed up his jab1 a bit, decrease the endlag on jab3 (or whatever the single stab is called), and maaaaaaaybe speed up his dashing attack, or decrease the ending lag. Just some thoughts I've had.

 

[Sarix]

I've mentioned on making his Jab1 active on frame 4 versus 6 to give it a bit more application before.

My thoughts were on speeding his Ftilt no faster than active on frame 9 and Dtilt no faster than frame 8 for more immediate ground spacing tools while still having below average speed on his normals. His dash attack just feels outclassed by DACUS in most situations in terms of application and reward imo. The only other thing I can think of is tweaking the trajectory of his Bow to give the Quickdraw AT more range since Link has no auto cancels on his projectiles or just giving it a cancel of some variation.

Mario actually is decently fast so I feel like that would take away from Link's known character of having mobility trouble.

 

[Hylian]

Couple of my matches from last tournament:

Darkatma(Pit) vs Hylian(Link):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRbZyf3icS8

Tmacc(MK) vs Hylian(Link):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ6mgP4GV1w

Hylian(Luc/Link) vs Vista LF:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0G5Ia5HvIs

 

[Sarix]

Disclaimer: You can take my opinions with a grain of salt Hylian since you have gotten much further with Link than I have competitively and know more than I do. I also still remember how we mentioned how different our play styles were so I don't expect you to change everything you do if you do take my opinion.

I liked the momentum you got in the beginning vs Darkatma; shame edgeguarding Pit is still feels like a lesson in futility. I know you don't do this in your play style, but I felt around 1:28ish when he was backing up to get space to zone with his arrows you could've easily done a little counter zoning since you had a percent lead. This would've forced him to approach instead of approaching when you don't need to. I know the idea is for Link to be strong at mid range but I feel like you aren't really taking advantage of that and instead opting for a more close-range rushdown style. The way I've found to land Fsmash is to space it and use it as a frame trap on shield by taking advantage of long you can delay the second hit to see if they drop their shield.

Against Tmacc I felt you could've optimized your shield pressure better instead of just using Usmash. Zair I find fantastic for creating difficult to punish shield pressure and I've used it in tandem with Jabs, Dtilt, and Quickdraw Bow keeping them blocking to set up a mix-up/tick throw. In the 2nd match, around 3:58 I would've shot 2 arrows in the air after the boomerang at that distance instead of going for a grab to force more reactions. Your projectile game I feel is too direct and it really makes perfect shielding something that will ruin your day. From a lot of my practice I've been taking advantage of the indirect pressure his projectiles have for forcing/baiting reactions or increasing the chances of the opponent to make a mistake. Link's indirect pressure game also allows him to create temporary lockdown situations which are a juicy way to punish the opponent's reactions as they try to break out.

 

[Bomber7]

I managed to watch the first game with Hylian playing Pit -> I feel he could have been more aggro and needed more mix-ups especially midrange
Against MK -> I saw those mix-ups, I liked what I saw.

 

[EmptySky00]

Never ****ing mind

 

[Fortress]

I'm really glad Link's grab does what it does in the air, I'd hate it if it grabbed, to be honest. I like the pokes and tugs.

 

[EmptySky00]

I'm really glad Link's grab does what it does in the air, I'd hate it if it grabbed, to be honest. I like the pokes and tugs.

Not the ****ing point but whatever.

 

[Fortress]

Ha. Point. Clawshot. I get it.

 

[Rarik]

Does ivysaur get near infinite Dthrow chaingrabs out of her grab? Cause if so wtf PMBR how did you mess up ivysaur so badly, but if not, then that's why she can grab in the air and Link can't, because Link did get silly ass chaingrabs when he could grab midair. Also Ivysaur is a giant mess design wise anyways, so you really shouldn't compare something well-designed (Link) to something as crazily designed as ivysaur unless your point is that the PMBR has a bad habit of missing characters with ******** designs in playtesting (hi 2.1 Lucario & 2.5 Sonic) or that Ivysaur needs to be changed rather than Link becoming stupidly designed as well.

 

[Sarix]

Ha. Point. Clawshot. I get it.

*Smack*

No! We're above this! Unless you want to be PUNished?

*Walks out*

Edit: I agree that comparing Link to Ivysaur is a bad idea. The PMBR has a lot of wrinkles to iron out with her but I don't doubt that they'll fix the traits she has that make her rather stupid.

 

[Fortress]

Oh, crap, wrong thread. I didn't realize I was in the Ivysaur discussion. Sorry, guys.

Also, Sarix, can you link me to the Link general thread, please?

Ha... ha..... ha......

I'm so lonely.