Link Social Thread

[Sarix]

Worst thread NA...

It all really started after Link's boomerang got changed in 2.6, (for the better imo). But what ya gonna do?

 

[Shadic]

Link's Nair was corrected due to the fact that Project M has evolved past the point where minor gimmicky crap like that is necessary on a character to preserve their "Meleeness."

Not to mention Link was a mediocre character at best in Melee, and an incredibly minor "nerf" was made to fix something that came from an obvious coding error from Melee that gave him an minor trick on top of an already great move.

In exchange for this small change, Link was improved in many different ways, and Project M lived another day as a slightly more polished game. The end.

 

[NickRiddle]

Obviously just make his animation longer; Link mains don't complain about the nair frames and it matches the animation~

 

[Shadic]

So you don't want to be able to grab the ledge after Nair for another 10-15 frames, then?

Not to mention the impact on autocancelling, IASA...

 

[NickRiddle]

Have the animation match with Link's nair frame data from Melee and have it instantly end as soon as the hitbox vanishes, duh.

 

[GHNeko]

Have the animation match with Link's nair frame data from Melee and have it instantly end as soon as the hitbox vanishes, duh.

See I know your joking now.

Sent from my SGH-T699 using Tapatalk 2

 

[EmptySky00]

Worst thread NA...

I'll call you when you were being addressed. I'm free to incite a discussion about a change. It wasn't even that real. So I'd appreciate it if you would mind your own business and not try to belittle me. Thanks.

Links nair was one of the only moves(if not the only move, I can't think of any others) to have hitboxes out after the animation ends. How is that not past a threshold? The reason for changing it was polish. It got changed for the same reasons that we changed a bunch of hitboxes on links moves. Changing those hitboxes for polish inherently buffed link, while matching nairs hitbox to it's animation inherently nerfed him(even though it's so insignificant you might as well be arguing semantics). Why aren't you complaining about the hitbox changes to links moves? Those didn't pass a threshold. Things don't need to cross a threshold for us to change them, if that was true half our characters moves wouldn't even exist. Lucario wouldn't exist, ZSS would be incredibly different etc etc. Having creative freedom when designing characters means taking from some aspects of the character and adding to others is a thing that needs to be thought about. If every move was looked at by itself then characters would be incredibly shallow.



No, I'm not arguing that it's not objectively worse, I'm saying the move is still so good that the point is almost negligible, you are asking why was it changed at all then and I'm telling you it was for polish, the same reason other hitboxes he had were changed.



Because being able to grab out of the air is a huge balance/enjoyment factor concern so more thought needs to go into the risk/rewards of polish vs balance. I personally think Link SHOULD be able to grab out of the air, but I'm not the only one designing him and I was alone in this thought even though I argued essays about it. Some standards have to be deviated from for various reasons even though we don't often enjoy doing it.



Uh..what? I was trying to point out how tunnel visioned you were being by only focusing on one move as opposed to changes to the entire moveset and how changes to the entire moveset could affect said move. Yes, old nair was a little better, but link doesn't need it with all the changes he got, I would much rather his hitboxes be consistent with their animations.




So...you are nitpicking.

Because it was the only move with that property means it should be taken away? And it wasn’t after the animation ended. It was UNTIL the animation ended. It’s not like for the next 50 frames he had a spike hitbox surrounding him or some ****. The change was unnecessary. That’s seriously all I’m saying, whether it came out as combative or not. Changing the hitboxes to match the animation was polish. Reducing hitbox length was a utility nerf (though I’ve already acknowledged it’s minor.) I understand it’s not the end of the world and the move is still good. My comments have probably given a skewed view of how much I give a ****. I just don’t view it as a fair change since he’s had that property since Melee.
(Ignore the damn line I don't even know what the hell)

Polish is fine then. Whatever.
Seriously. I’m simply attempting to make a point that it was unnecessary to take it away. It wasn’t causing any harm. Think what you will.

I agree. It’s a balance thing. I’m not suggesting you throw caution to the wind and let him CG 0-death against everyone. Simply saying a lot of things in the game are unintuitive. The opponent should know about his hitbox lasting, any disjoints their opponent has, and all of their options. So it being counterintuitive shouldn’t even be a thing. MU knowledge. And again, the length of the hitbox linger wasn’t even that significant that it warranted a change. But I guess your argument is the other side of the coin, that it’s so insignificant that it should be changed for polish’s sake. I merely enjoyed the utility it offered.

That’s fine. I’ll just leave it at that.


Nitpicking? Call it what you will.



@Shadic - Smash characters in general are gimmicky. But fine. And I would argue that there was no "exchange" taking place because the give and take is completely arbitrary (nair hitbox shorter for rang and hitboxes and such) Calling it polish is a better argument imo.

I've blown off my steam and I've stopped caring. I just wanted to respond. I guess. Everyone's so combative. Myself included.

 

[Hylian]

But I guess your argument is the other side of the coin, that it’s so insignificant that it should be changed for polish’s sake.

No need to be combative, this is exactly my point.

 

[GHNeko]

Are we still arguing over the miniscule loss of active frames on link's nair, which was clearly unpolished and not well coded in melee and is logically fixed to make sense in P:M because there is no need to replicate the jank due to the fact that the loss is negligible in practice, and only matters if you count frames (ie theory talk), and despite that, he's been compensated to the point where that particular aspect is becomes even less valuable in the grand scheme of things?

 

[Sarix]

Are we still arguing over the miniscule loss of active frames on link's nair, which was clearly unpolished and not well coded in melee and is logically fixed to make sense in P:M because there is no need to replicate the jank due to the fact that the loss is negligible in practice, and only matters if you count frames (ie theory talk), and despite that, he's been compensated to the point where that particular aspect is becomes even less valuable in the grand scheme of things?

Yeah I honestly don't see why anyone would make a fuss about Link losing some active frames on his Nair. It still has a long duration and still fulfills its original functions.

If Project M wants to be taken seriously outside of the Smash community, polish must be brought in. Otherwise gimmicks like Link having hitboxes past Nair's duration will make the game look sloppy. No amount of metagame will excuse leaving loose ends in a game from a developer's perspective.

 

[EmptySky00]

No need to be combative, this is exactly my point.

I wasn't trying to be combative, which is sort of what my statement was acknowledging, that it became that way regardless of original intention.

I seriously do just find it strange how you guys went to great lengths to preserve Melee top tiers EXACTLY as they were in Melee (Which is a good thing, don't get me wrong. And I respect that you had the initiative to take away invincibility on the best move in the game), so again, it just seems really uneven. And you cannot argue that hitbox length is a gimmick. The duration of a hitbox is a very substantial property. It's not as meaningless a change as you were suggesting. Just played a few sets and the hitbox absence affected situations multiple times in each match, even when I wasn't trying to use it. It wasn't just a meaningless change and it's upsetting. But I lose I guess. I will never win an argument against the ones who are making the design decisions, since you guys know what you want. But I would like to think my points were considered.

 

[FlashingFire]

I read somewhere (perhaps even earlier in this thread) that there were some slight changes to Link's throws in 2.6 that are designed to make him less reliant on just D-throw. Anyone care to enlighten me on that subject? I personally find myself using D-throw for combos and the other throws just for positional advantage (i.e. tossing people off ledges or onto platforms).

 

[Xenozoa425]

Uthrow can actually kill, albeit at high %.

Fthrow and Bthrow are noticeably better as well, but not by much.

 

[Sarix]

I read somewhere (perhaps even earlier in this thread) that there were some slight changes to Link's throws in 2.6 that are designed to make him less reliant on just D-throw. Anyone care to enlighten me on that subject? I personally find myself using D-throw for combos and the other throws just for positional advantage (i.e. tossing people off ledges or onto platforms).

Well for starters F-throw now sets up a DACUS follow up really well which is great for all sorts of combo options since DACUS is one of Link's best combo fillers. The F-throw > DACUS is also useable against floaties like Peach so it's very useful. F-throw also has a chain grab on fast fallers that can carry to the ledge to rack up like 50%. I believe around 50% if Link F-throws a fast faller or any non-floaty he can get a possibly guaranteed knockdown and do an oki set up. I don't know if fast fallers have the frames to tech before landing from it so I may be wrong.

Some characters can be regrabbed from B-throw > F-throw, mostly fast fallers though I believe. D-throw isn't a chain grab anymore that I know of and tried to test, but it still has plenty of follow up options.

Either way I think F-throw got a lot more useful this patch, the knockback feels a bit weaker so it's easier to follow up on. I may be wrong on a bit of this since I don't have updated frame data to back up anything.

 

[Hylian]

Uthrow doesn't really kill(unless they are at like 250%).

Uthrow has a lower launching point and does more damage, you can combo some characters with Uthrow better than you can with dthrow(fast fallers you can now combo from 0 with up throw which you couldn't before). Even characters like DK or Ganon I will sometimes uthrow because I can get more damage from uair juggles or platform combos, you really have to mess around with all the throws. You can do fthrow fair or dacus on many floaties, bthrow is good for throwing off the stage and gimping people.

 

[Hylian]

Streaming some tomorrow if you guys want to see some link gameplay .

https://www.facebook.com/Hylian/posts/606312866077447

 

[Sarix]

I'll have to check it out before I go to work in the evening.

 

[Amazerommu]

Some matches from a tournament I was at about a month ago:

Hylian vs Vro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJc2yIl10-Y
Hylian vs Calabrel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_RU4aJfgVc

I haven't watched these yet but I had an injured finger this tournament so I probably played pretty bad lol. Keep in mind this is 2.5 as well.

Edit: Also here is some good doubles play from the losers finals of that tournament if anyone is interested in doubles:
Hylian/Strongbad vs Darkatma/Deku
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU88ELPKVj8

Holy crap! Those ledge bomb tricks are delicious. Definitely learned some new things that I can use with Link...

I feel like I should've been able to figure this out by now, but how do you cancel tether from the ledge. I saw you doing this at Nerd Rage too and was trying to figure it out after that lol

 

[Hylian]

You press down!

Stream going up in a couple of minutes, come check out Me/Metroid/Darkatma and friends play, Roy/Mewtwo gameplay going to be streamed as well.

www.twitch.tv/metroid1117

 

[monkeyx4]

You press down!

Stream going up in a couple of minutes, come check out Me/Metroid/Darkatma and friends play, Roy/Mewtwo gameplay going to be streamed as well.

www.twitch.tv/metroid1117

o snaps thx

 

[Hylian]

Bunch of Link matches in here from the other day, if you click more in the description it makes them easy to find.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkCJlOBPy2I

0:00:00 - Darkatma (Pit) vs Tmacc (MK)
0:05:41 - metroid (Ike) vs Hylian (Lucario)
0:10:04 - metroid (Ike) vs Hylian (Link)
0:14:48 - MP (Sonic) vs Hylian (Link)
0:17:42 - Tmacc (MK) vs Hylian (Link)
0:21:56 - metroid (Ike) vs Hylian (Lucario)
0:25:14 - MP (Sonic) vs Hylian (Ganon)
0:28:31 - metroid (Ike) vs Tmacc (MK)
0:31:11 - Darkatma (Pit) vs metroid (Ike)
0:37:25 - metroid (Ike) vs Hylian (Link)
0:34:37 - metroid (Ike) vs Tmacc (TL)
0:41:02 - Darkatma (Pit) vs metroid (Ike)
0:45:56 - metroid (Ike) vs Tmacc (MK)
0:51:37 - Tmacc (MK) vs Hylian (Dr Mario)
0:52:51 - Darkatma (Pit) vs Tmacc (Bowser)
0:56:46 - Darkatma (Pit) vs Hylian (Lucario)
1:00:59 - Darkatma (Wolf) vs Hylian (Snake)
1:04:40 - metroid (Ike) vs Hylian (Lucario)
1:07:46 - Darkatma (Sheik) vs metroid (Ike)
1:11:40 - metroid (Ike) vs MP (Sonic)
1:14:42 - Seraph (Bowser) vs metroid (Ike)
1:17:47 - metroid (Ike) vs Hylian (Link)
1:22:47 - MP (Sonic) vs Hylian (Lucario)
1:26:17 - metroid (Ike) vs Hylian (Lucario)
1:30:13 - Seraph (Bowser) vs metroid (Ike)
1:33:04 - Cookiemonster (CF) vs metroid (Ike)
1:36:25 - Cookiemonster (CF) vs MP (Sonic)
1:38:54 - Cookiemonster (CF) vs Hylian (Lucario)
1:42:09 - metroid (Ike) vs Hylian (Lucario)
1:47:19 - Cookiemonster (Marth) vs MP (Sonic)
1:49:50 - Cookiemonster (CF) vs metroid (Ike)
1:52:59 - metroid (Ike) vs Hylian (Link)
1:56:15 - metroid (Ike) vs MP (Sonic)
1:58:42 - Cookiemonster (Marth) vs metroid (Ike)
2:02:52 - Cookiemonster (Marth) vs Hylian (Link)
2:06:13 - MP (Sonic) vs Hylian (Link)
2:08:52 - metroid (Ike) vs Hylian (Link)
2:12:56 - metroid (Ike) vs MP (Sonic)
2:15:07 - metroid (Ike) vs Hylian (Lucario)
2:19:32 - Cookiemonster (CF) vs metroid (Marth)
2:21:41 - metroid (Marth) vs MP (Sonic)
2:25:33 - Cookiemonster (Marth) vs metroid (Marth)
2:28:37 - Cookiemonster (Marth) vs MP (Sonic)
2:31:42 - Cookiemonster (Marth) vs metroid (Wario)
2:34:42 - Cookiemonster (Falco) vs Hylian (Lucario)
2:38:46 - metroid (Ike) vs Hylian (Lucario)

 

[Nausicaa]

Showed this link and a few Link matches from it to a local with a remarkably similar style of play. He was really enjoying seeing this. Your bomb-play is something he never incorporates to any decent extent, and there's a few key things regarding efficiency that he picked up on. Examples being how you would go straight for a FJ > D-air for a simple kill when he would FJ > B-air > Boom > Re-Grab attempt to combo into D-air in a very close-quarters linking-way, or something stupid and fancy. Otherwise, everything from the moments and quantities of everything from jab/d-tilt mixes to pivot grab attempts to n-airs off-stage/falling, it's incredibly eerie to watch. You have more bomb-flare by FAR, and he was stoked on that, though he was hoping you would have some Z-air tricks for him to check out too, since he's been meaning to incorporate it more at some point too.

Figured you would like to know you inspired someone with a similar mentality.

 

[Hylian]

I always love hearing that . I do have some pretty mean zair tricks actually but they are very situational so I end up not using them a lot. I really want people to realize you can be creative and awesome with a character while still being somewhat simple and effective so I base my playstyle around that. I've yet to see someone learn all my bomb tricks though and I really want to see some videos of other Links using them because they really throw opponents off in tournaments lol because it's not something you can practice against.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

You should make a video tutorial of all them crazy bomb tricks you do.

 

[Nausicaa]

Question: Is the Melee-trick of Z-dropping a bomb (when recovering) and Fast-Fall > U-air to blow it up... still functional? Can N-air be used?
It would seem so, though I haven't tried (in Melee OR PM), and I'm sure the Link around here would love to try it out.

He hasn't played 2.6b yet, but he's coming back on Wednesday (the final member of our local community to return after basically being smash-fest-less for the summer), and video-watching on his own before returning is basically his prep for it, so this has been good inspiration for him in the meantime. The more tricks to spark interest, the better, though when he gets his hands on the game, he'll probably be exploring too much to explore the internet much more. For now this was perfect!

I actually lol'd at a couple instances in more than a few matches at just how similar decision making he does in neutral. It's silly. Hopefully he can get back into it quickly and it will stick/develop, so we can record some for you to see. For fun-purposes at the least.

 

[Hylian]

Not sure if that works, I doubt it as bombs are harder to kill than in melee also your uair doesn't have a hurtbox so not sure how the bomb would hit you even if it did explode.

He'll have fun with the new rang, it's actually useful now unlike 2.5 .

 

[Amazerommu]

I always love hearing that . I do have some pretty mean zair tricks actually but they are very situational so I end up not using them a lot. I really want people to realize you can be creative and awesome with a character while still being somewhat simple and effective so I base my playstyle around that. I've yet to see someone learn all my bomb tricks though and I really want to see some videos of other Links using them because they really throw opponents off in tournaments lol because it's not something you can practice against.

Haha I've been practicing some of your bomb tricks. Got the bomb drop and push with z-air down just about. And can kiiiiinda do the double aerial glide toss to tether the ledge... not coordinated enough to let go, jump and AGT the bomb again tho lol... still working on that.

Keep killing myself with the tether cancel though... Any tips on that one? Do I just have to be super fast when re-grabbing and/or blendering?

Edit: I also love how you'll just leave a bomb somewhere for a while, and then come back and give 'em a bomb wombo with it (bombo?)

 

[Hylian]

Just gotta practice the tether cancel. I started doing it to avoid being shine spiked by Fox players and killed myself a lot with it, but I've never killed myself in a match with it because I practiced it until I could do it 100%.

 

[Amazerommu]

Guess I better get to practicing then lol Thanks!

 

[cmloe]

Who are some good project m link players?

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Hylian's one.

 

[Fortress]

So, a question; how do I wean myself off of the Boomerang? I seem to catch myself using it a lot as my personal bread-and-butter. I shorthop throw it, retreat and throw it, and just use it to pull opponents in and lead into Nairs, Fairs, DACUS, or a dashing attack. I think I'm using it too much. Also, I find myself not being able to do an AGT down all of a sudden. I don't know if I just started doing a weird timing internally and can't do it, or what, but each time I try and do it, I throw the hookshot out for whatever reason (I'm using the c-stick).

Okay, so, I just reverted my SD card back to 2.6b offline compatible, and it's working just fine. That's the weirdest thing. Is there some sort of difference in the wifi-safe version of 2.6b that I'm not aware of, like, frame compensations or some janky thing like that? I can do AGT just fine with the offline version, but not on the wifi version.

 

[Rarik]

Wifi version has light press airdodge. Offline has fullpress airdodge.

As for weaning yourself off the boomerang, the best way is probably to play against people who will punish you for using boomerang poorly. Another way is simply to play a bunch of games without using boomerang at all, which forces yourself to adapts your playstyle. Lastly, if you have a recording setup you can analyze videos of yourself to find moments when you could have been punished, or when a different option would have been better, and then go back to playing and mentally slapping yourself anytime you recognize a situation where you should have done something other than boomerang. (This last one probably isn't that great of a solution, but i do recommend doing this for the very sake of figuring out if your boomerang usage is actually a problem.)

 

[Fortress]

Wifi version has light press airdodge. Offline has fullpress airdodge.

As for weaning yourself off the boomerang, the best way is probably to play against people who will punish you for using boomerang poorly. Another way is simply to play a bunch of games without using boomerang at all, which forces yourself to adapts your playstyle. Lastly, if you have a recording setup you can analyze videos of yourself to find moments when you could have been punished, or when a different option would have been better, and then go back to playing and mentally slapping yourself anytime you recognize a situation where you should have done something other than boomerang. (This last one probably isn't that great of a solution, but i do recommend doing this for the very sake of figuring out if your boomerang usage is actually a problem.)

I can land the hits with it most of the time, but I think it's more of a 'I have better options available' type of problem that I'm having. I'm using it when I could be doing other things, and I'm neglecting the powerful 'rang+spin attack killer that Link can do. I think I'll try the second option, and just stop using it for a few games and see where that takes me, and what it opens up for me.

 

[Amazerommu]

I can land the hits with it most of the time, but I think it's more of a 'I have better options available' type of problem that I'm having. I'm using it when I could be doing other things, and I'm neglecting the powerful 'rang+spin attack killer that Link can do. I think I'll try the second option, and just stop using it for a few games and see where that takes me, and what it opens up for me.

I also do this occasionally as I use it waaaay too much heheh.

You have to be ridiculously delicate with that tether cancel too! But I've pretty much got it down now, as well as that nifty double AGT to tether to AGT catch/throw... not even sure what the heck you'd call that.

 

[Nausicaa]

I avoid projectiles almost entirely until my punish game and dynamics of the scrim-nature and available options in niche situations is flushed out with the character.
Maybe try that route, since it's a lot easier to revert back to using the standard/your intuitive BnB afterwards anyway. This way you'll optimize any hits you DO get through your BnB neutral, which you may not have become aware of access to without diverting from it.

 

[Xenozoa425]

Nothing wrong with using boomerang too much unless you're getting really punished for it. It's just so BnB like Mario's fireballs or spacie lasers, you just toss it out without really thinking. Everybody does it at some point, but I'm finding myself using bombs a bit more now, since they have so much more versatility and utility than the boomerang imo.

 

[Fortress]

I'm not really getting punished for it. I mean, it's landing hits, leading into combos, and helping me pick people up off of the ground, but I can't help but feel as if I'm missing something here.

 

[Nausicaa]

It's just so BnB like Mario's fireballs or spacie lasers, you just toss it out without really thinking. Everybody does it at some point

I think my soul just collapse on itself and imploded the universe of existence...
This is so... painful to my face to read...
lol

 

[Sarix]

I'm not really getting punished for it. I mean, it's landing hits, leading into combos, and helping me pick people up off of the ground, but I can't help but feel as if I'm missing something here.

If you feel that way, you can do what I do and experiment with the other projectiles. It's greatly improved my zoning and pressure game and gives me an idea of how each tools is applicable.