Link: Official Character Discussion

[KishSquared]

Discussion for the Savior of Hyrule. Anyone can suggest anything for any of these topics, and it'll be noted. No changes will be made without three votes. Default physics values will be used unless new ones are suggested are earn three votes.

Suggested Offensive Modifications:

Suggested Defensive Modifications:

Default Physics:
SH: 1.0
FH: 1.025
FF: 1.2
DGrav: 1.15
Grav: 1.0

Physics Changes:

Specific Move Fixes:
Up B: Less gravity @ .9 (Almas)

Anything else:
ALR @ 35% (The Cape)

 

[KishSquared]

Reserved for votes.

 

[CT Chia]

i havent played link too much but a friend of mine suggested something i think is a good idea - is there a way we can make it so we can DI his upB better left and right like you could in Melee? Perhaps make his zair recovery a tad longer also? though i doubt that can happen.

 

[Almas]

Link currently has 0.9 Gravity during his Up+B. His Aerial Lag has been set to 25% unless it has been changed.

 

[The Cape]

Link has 35% ALR.

The fully charged all the time up and B code with slightly reduced knockback I think would be perfect for him.

Thats all he really needs.

 

[kupo15]

or how about buff the uncharged up b kb to full charged power that way you can charge it more if you want too?

 

[The Cape]

Sounds kind of OP there Kupo.

 

[leafgreen386]

Sounds kind of OP there Kupo.

Exactly what I was thinking. A fully charged upB all the time would already be a HUGE boon for link. To be able to charge an upB past that... you're getting into instant kill territory there lol

 

[The Cape]

So fully charged up and B all the time and bring the knockback down a bit?

 

[kupo15]

Exactly what I was thinking. A fully charged upB all the time would already be a HUGE boon for link. To be able to charge an upB past that... you're getting into instant kill territory there lol

Well how often does a link player get to charge their up b? I thought that was a neat addition when I read it on the dojo but didn't know charging was necessary to make the move not suck. How early does a charged up b kill with proper DI anyway?

Links up b was quite powerful in melee, even more so than I think a fully charged up b would be in brawl, seeing how the last hitboxs sent you more horizontally and it was tougher to get back to the stage yet link was low tier. I think we should try it. How often does a link player actually land a fully charged up b anyway?

 

[KishSquared]

I dislike the idea of giving him a fully charged Up-B. That's eliminating a component of Link's game, one that has plenty of uses now that characters don't sweet spot the ledge during up-B moves.

I'm with Kupo. He should be able to charge it still. Rather than even saying to start with a fully charged up-B, why not just scale it so it's 50-150%. Start it at half of max-power, and let you charge it to 150% of the normal max.

 

[CT Chia]

yea i definitely like being able to charge it, but i think the knockback definitely needs to be increased. after that link should really be a great character. he'l have a great on stage game, good edgeguarding, his projectiles dont rly need to be buffed, and we up'd his recovery a bit.

o man i wanna play link now, in just thinking of disastrous combos a better upB would bring lol

 

[KishSquared]

What's Link's main weaknesses in vBrawl? I always thought it was an inability to kill and poor recovery. We've buffed his recovery, but what about his ability to get a kill?

 

[The Cape]

thats what the up and B would help with. Dair hits HARD especially if you hold down as well.

 

[Ulevo]

Currently Links Spin Attack can KO Meta Knight from the center of Final Destination without a charge at 106% with no DI. When it's fully charged, it can KO at 62% without DI. Do with it what you will, but I believe it needs to be buffed.

Is there anyway we could bring back Links ability to shoot his chain back in to walls? That would help his recovery a lot.

 

[kupo15]

Giza made this and it might be too powerful

020C4844 02169118
0C556402 01690000
FFFFFFFF 00000000

Makes Link's up+B strong as hell.

 

[The Cape]

This is what I think would help him more than anything.

Up and B comes out faster on the ground
Bombs do 6% damage with fixed KB so they can be comboed off of.
F and D smash have more KB to KO
U smash has lower scaling of KB
D throw has lower scaling of KB for combo setups.

 

[Revven]

Alright after trying out Link today here's what I just thought of.

Make his Up B charge faster on the ground. It is seriously too slow to get the best KB possible with it. If we can make it charge faster (but not TOO fast) just enough to make the move a bit more viable, I think he'll be good. Because I tried it today and ... the charging really hindered the buff we gave him in KB for it and the semi-spike, speaking of which, I never hit with the semi-spike today BECAUSE of the charging part of it being ridiculously slow and stupid.

My other idea was just to make it fully charged all the time or have no charging at all, yet another thing to separate him from Toon Link. What do you guys think?

 

[CT Chia]

i like keeping it chargable, but yea speed up charge time just a lil

 

[goodoldganon]

I think diversifying Tink from Link should be something to look into more. They play differently, but at the same time feel way too similar, I don't know...

 

[Revven]

Swordplay told me that Link's Dtilt is a little too good against certain chars as all Link has to do is camp near the ledge, making said char approach, grab, throw, and then Dtilt them and they can't do anything about it because it's a spike. Two examples of said chars are DK and Bowser. SP had some suggestions on how to fix it:

Slow it down by 90%-95%
Make it a Meteor Smash instead

What do you guys think? Just passing this on.

 

[goodoldganon]

I don't think he ever needed it, or still does. The spin attack suffices. He doesn't need the D-tilt. All it does is break a few matchups since most characters can get around it fine, but some are just ****ed.

 

[Revven]

Well, SP just told me now that Finnz doesn't have an easier of a time with pulling the Dtilt off on his opponents. So, I don't really know what to make of the Dtilt...

In other words, SP's opponents suck.

 

[The Cape]

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Fair
hitbox 1 (100 growth, 20 base from 5 base and 100 growth, 12 damage from 9)
hitbox 2 (50 growth, 20 base, 90 degree angle and 6 damage from 12 damage, 20 base, and 110 growth)

Bair (hb1 and 2: 35 base, 0 growth, 72 degree angle from 0 base and 100 growth)
hitbox 3 (60 growth, 20 base from 70 and 70)

Uair (Strong hit) (25 base from 18)

Zair hb2(80 degree angle from 45)

Dashattack (40 base from 30, 60 growth from 80 growth on all hits)
hitbox 2 (mid) (100 angle from 80)
hitbox 3 (run through) (90 angle from 70)
hitbox 4 (run through) (80 angle from 60)

U smash:
HB 1 and 2:
4 damage, 0 growth, 30 base, and 90 degree angle from 100 growth and 0 base

HB 3 and 4:
3 damage, 0 growth, 30 base, and 90 degree angle from 100 growth and 0 base

HB 5-8:
All hitboxes: 75 base and 40 growth from 80 growth and 70 base

D smash:
HB1:
90 growth, 40 base, 16 damage from 90 growth and 26 base and 14 damage

HB 2-5:
10 or 11 damage, 30 base, 60 growth from 16 damage, 26 base and 90 growth, 100 degree angle

 

[shanus]

spent some time with zxeon polishing up the link changes (some things were altered as he said they did not play well):

-Link Fair hitbox 1 (5 growth, 40 base from 5 base and 100 growth, 6 damage from 9)
-Link Bair (hb1 and 2: 35 base, 0 growth, 72 degree angle from 0 base and 100 growth)
-Link Bair hitbox 3 (60 growth & 50 base from 70 and 70)
-Link Uair (Strong hit) (25 base from 18)
-Link Zair hb2(80 degree angle from 45)
-Link Dashattack (40 base from 30, 60 growth from 80 growth on all hits)
-Link Dashattack hitbox 2 (mid) (100 angle from 80)
-Link Dashattack hitbox 3 (run through) (90 angle from 70)
-Link Dashattack hitbox 4 (run through) (80 angle from 60)
-Link Up smash HB 5-8: All hitboxes: 75 base and 95 growth from 80 growth and 70 base


-Link standing upB 1.2x
-Link Dash attack wind-down 1.5x

 

[kupo15]

Do you mind posting those hitbox datas shanus?

 

[Deleted member]

why you need them for your own set or something? if you want hitbox changes you can make them yourself, the format is easy as pie.

 

[kupo15]

why you need them for your own set or something? if you want hitbox changes you can make them yourself, the format is easy as pie.

Thank you.

 

[MookieRah]

I still think Link needs a few things. Like I've mentioned before in the IRC I think an utilt speed buff could help out a lot. I'm thinking as much as 10-20% would be great, cause it needs a bit more speed to it.

I also think that the spin attack isn't quite good enough yet. I think if you did a damage buff to do like 20% damage instead of 12% (even after learning that it can combo from jabs, it's still not *that* good, and other characters have awesome stuff like this too anyways), leaving everything else the same, it'd give it the added punch of damage and knockback to be where it needs to be.

 

[ZodiakLucien]

to me the biggest thing link is lacking is a good move to poke. I think the first hit of his fair should be a kill move similar to smash64. Right now nair kills better then that. Trying to hit with the 2nd hit of the fair it a joke at higher percents.

 

[The Cape]

Lucien, I actually tried making the first hit of fair hit out and the second hit hit up (think Melee) but the Link mains complained about it quite a bit sadly.

I agree that its a much better option as it allows a good sheild poke shuffl, more kill options, and the second hit can be used for U tilt combos.

 

[ZodiakLucien]

what did they complain about? I dont see how you would not want that.

 

[Shell]

Let's give this guy a few tweaks to balance the nerfs we tossed at him -- I though upping the damage on Spin Attack sounded reasonable, and Leaf suggested making the jab IASA frame earlier. Both sound good. Discuss.

 

[The Cape]

I agree on both ideas, they sound excellent.

What about adding on a bit more KB to the arrows? This allows their small ability to gimp to be a bit more useful. Its a thought.

 

[goodoldganon]

I don't see why Link ever got those nerfs in the first place. He was fine as he was before. It was really the best character we ever edited. It was a complete 180 on a terrible moveset gone awesome. Why nerf or adjust it at all?

 

[Shell]

Sensible game design -- Fast, powerful kill moves should usually have moderate cooldown, and the Dair did not. We got some complaints on the D-tilt.

I don't think we need to go overboard with buffs -- I'd probably take the Spin Attack damage and choose between either Jab IASA faster or higher KB Arrows and he should be set until a couple months from now when we're putting together a tierlist and subtle balance tweaks.

 

[shanus]

If you adjust the IASA for jab, be very careful. His jab cancels can already link into kill moves such as spin attack, so if you adjust the IASA, one or two frames is more than enough.