Liar Game Mafia | GAME OVER! Who won the 100 gazzillion yen?

[I am Zim!]

Voted |

Voter(s)​

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Votes to lynch​

Overswarm​

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Gheb_01​

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1 / 5​

J​

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Circus​

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1 / 5​

Circus​

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J, July​

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2 / 5​

Gheb_01​

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Sworddancer., Overswarm​

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2 / 5​

Not voting: Asdioh, Raziek

Voteblocked:

With 8 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch!

Deadline: Saturday March 10, 11:59 CET

 

[~ Gheb ~]

OS definitely scum.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I made both contracts at the same time. J's I wrote and submitted earlier, July's came after. I typed both contracts before OS has made his post and I have submitted both before I read his posts.

OS is also scummmmmmmm.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

One last thing, people honestly shouldn't be suspicious of Circus for Ghesb's reasoning. Guys, sk and mafia both have scum to hunt, so it's kinda shallow to say that "Circus is playing for his own team, scum!" when even a scum Circus would have incentive to scumhunt.

That's J's reasoning, not mine. I suggest you read my post again where I point out Circuscum.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

OS deserves death for 156. Most misleading piece of filth ever written.

 

[Overswarm]

OS definitely scum.

I made both contracts at the same time. J's I wrote and submitted earlier, July's came after. I typed both contracts before OS has made his post and I have submitted both before I read his posts.

OS is also scummmmmmmm.

That's J's reasoning, not mine. I suggest you read my post again where I point out Circuscum.

OS deserves death for 156. Most misleading piece of filth ever written.

I fail to see an actual response to anything I have written, nor another direction to look in from your posts. Furthermore, it is known you considered me scum prior to my posts; you have stated this openly. Any case on me would involve an emphasis on the posts prior to them first, and the second batch can only be construed as more evidence rather than the primary.

If this is the case you should find it easy to connect to whatever you considered your case to be prior to me posting.

I await your case and am greatly anticipating the connections you will make.

 

[Raziek]

May or may not have time for this game tonight, but holy crap in a hat, OS.

 

[#HBC | J]

Jeez OS, you make me have to respond to a lot haha.

@Everyone: I would like your opinion on OS posting a read list by Day's end, and rather or not it would be beneficial for town.

There is really no question to it being beneficial for town to have a reads list by Day's end tbh.

Can you clarify what you mean here?

Sure thing. Basically what I feel with Circus is like a negative nelly where they just look at the negative aspects of the contracts while OS is trying to manipulate them in what seems the best interest of town. That's the sort of thing I meant.

@anyone who has received a contract from Gheb:

Please confirm if he sent his contracts in before or after the timestamps of mine and Ryker's posts at the beginning of Day 0. Just in case I missed anything.

Just to be clear, Gheb has no issue with this.

Gheb's timestamp was for 1:22 PM, indicating he read the thread prior to sending out his contracts and was, in fact, lying.

July, Gheb, you both need to clarify some things.

Contract QT made by Gheb = 1:13pm
Contract request received from Xonar = 1:25

Day one

@town

I'd like for J to immediately break the contract. Gheb will not report the contract being broken in any way, shape, or form.

I'd like to put an end to the bull**** here in regards to pointless contracts.

Does anyone disagree?

If the rest of the town agrees to it, I'm fine with this. Though I guess my opinion is moot haha.

That's J's reasoning, not mine. I suggest you read my post again where I point out Circuscum.

No, that's not my reasoning at all.

I fail to see an actual response to anything I have written, nor another direction to look in from your posts. Furthermore, it is known you considered me scum prior to my posts; you have stated this openly. Any case on me would involve an emphasis on the posts prior to them first, and the second batch can only be construed as more evidence rather than the primary.

If this is the case you should find it easy to connect to whatever you considered your case to be prior to me posting.

I await your case and am greatly anticipating the connections you will make.

I really agree to this post @Gheb. You can't just say "OS is soooo scum for that post he made on me" and expect others to just go with it. If you feel it was a bad post, I'd do kind of what I did and respond to what you feel is bad. I really don't like your reaction to OS' wall and seems really weak.

I'm also going to double with OS and say I want to see a legitimate case on him since you seem to have such a strong read on him.

 

[Overswarm]

Others, thoughts on mine and J's exchange?

 

[#HBC | J]

I honestly don't know how to feel on OS' attack on me because some points are a stretch and just bad but they are not like malicious besides they seem to lack a full understanding/comprehensive reading on what has gone on. It also seems like his stance on the J vs. Circus dilemma is based on who agrees with his opinion on the contracts.

However, his points on Gheb do make me like him because I do agree with a good amount of the case on him especially when talking about OMGUS. Gheb's attitude afterwards doesn't help him for me at the current time.

If OS was lynched, I wouldn't really cry over it but I think one of Circus/Gheb would be a better option for toDay.

The only two I'm kind of not wanting to die are July/Swords. Asdioh/Raz just need to do more stuffs.

Though on a funny note, this game is Asdioh's nightmare I can already tell because of it is deceptive. It looks like it doesn't have a lot of posts but they are all pretty lengthy posts and well...he hates long posts. Just a random thought heh.

 

[Circus]

Trying not to tunnel. Going to take a few deep breaths and read over some of the walls that I've neglected/have been added since I last read. Not promising a post tonight, but we'll see how riled up I get. Just don't mind if you see me "viewing" for a long time without posting.

 

[Circus]

There's a difference between what one is saying and what one is posting. You can never trust what July is posting because she'll never quite let you know what she's actually saying. You think she's "open and communicative" but that exactly how she wins game as scum - by letting you think she's "open and communicative".

Really, this just confirms that July needs to post more and be open about her reads. You've already fallen for the same fallacy that like 5 towns did and let her get away with it. That's exactly what I'm trying to prevent.

This is really true about July, @Circus. July really has blinded me in the past because I thought she was being "open and communicative" but in the end she was being a treacherous witch of manipulation behind her walls. I think you are underestimating her ability to trick people.

Gheb's contract with July, as I understand it, does not solve this problem. The contract just forces her to post more and make cases; it does not necessarily keep her honest. In fact, if anything, it gives her incentive to make up cases on people in order to keep the power to vote. Gheb's answer reads as very insincere to me, and J's support of it doesn't help in this context. It doesn't matter how manipulative July is capable of being—the issue is whether Gheb's contract can even do anything to inhibit that. And it can't.

Besides, what kind of statement is "you can never trust what July is posting because she'll never quite let you know what she's actually saying?" You could replace July's name with the name of anyone in Dgames and still have a true statement. I mean, that's the game. Town's job, in it's most basic form, is to read past this problem as best they can.

By the way, J, nice job trying to color July's name with the phrase "treacherous witch of manipulation" for no reason. Little too eager to throw FUD, methinks.

OK, now I really start to feel how you're "twisting" things. If you really conclude that I don't care about the town's voting power then you're not looking at things objectively but just try to make me look like the bad guy in any case.

The way this conversation is going also feels like certain people - not just Circus - are trying to "trap" me. Whether I actually enforce the punishment @July or not has already stopped mattering as far as I can tell. From the moment the contract became public you've already decided that I have to be scum for it without considering any other option [this is only @Circus]. Being concerned is one thing - what you doing though, is starting to look like PF endgame where you're confusing "scum" with "the guy who doesn't do what I like".

Not touching the PF comment because I don't want to open old wounds. Nice scare tactic though.

The problem here is that you aren't actually refuting my point though. You did say that you would actually prefer July to not have the ability to vote if she's not going to be able to fullfill her contract. It has been highlighted more than once now that this is not smart. It is bad, bad, bad if July is town. Overswarm's request for you to simply not call for the punishment if July breaks contract is reasonable, and you have resisted it. That looks super sketchy, period. You can whine all you like about feeling like I'm trapping you, but the truth is that you're trapping yourself.

Peanuts.

Is that "peanuts, okay," Or "peanuts, go **** yourself?" I wasn't kidding when I said I expect 3 cases from you.

I like how Swords is challenging people without being afraid to get his hands dirty which makes me comfortable with him thus far.

This statement is incongruous with your opinion of me so far. Swords being willing to get his hands dirty makes you feel comfortable with him, but me being willing to get my hands dirty makes you suspicious of me. What's the difference? Surely it couldn't simply be the fact that I'm pressuring you and Swords isn't.

 

[Circus]

That's a painful other metaphor and definitely got your metaphor. (Btw, was that a Dodgeball Movie reference?)

Maybe. It was just sitting in my brain. Wouldn't be surprised if it came from Dodgeball, though I haven't seen that movie in years.

I get nothing? That is not true at all Circus and I don't get why you are looking at this through only one perspective. There was stuff I got out of it and I have said why so I don't really plan to re-iterate myself but to summarize it, I am doing this to help people read me better and also to help better myself as a player.

But that's so little that it's essentially nothing, which is what I've been saying this whole time. Substantively, it's nothing. Gheb offered you this contract that is very clearly one-sided. I'm willing to believe you were fine with the terms of the contract, but I'm not willing to believe that town J wouldn't have tried to negotiate for more since you totally could have. The only explanation that makes sense is that you get something out of this contract that is more valuable than what you're actually divulging, and is not even necessarily written explicitly in the contract. More on that next.

You keep acting like this is the biggest problem in the world that I accepted Gheb's contract on me but I have yet to see much "negative" aspects about it besides that it will cause people to have to highlight my posts when they read them.

I have an honest question for you Circus, do you think a posting color change to black will honestly keep me quiet/not a presence in the game? Plus so far, I'm good with this restrction so far with emotion so who's to say I'm going to fail?

I don't think you'll necessarily fail. And I don't think you having to post in black text is some atrocious slight against Town. Allow me to be frank about this.

The one explanation I can think of that justifies you accepting the contract Gheb proposed to you is if, as I said before, you get something out of it that you're not letting on. What might that be? Distancing. This contract makes sense if, rather than being done for the sake of making you easier to read, it was instead done to make you look town if your scumbuddy Gheb should die at some point (or vice versa, I suppose). This was a possibility that popped into my mind very shortly after reading the details of the contract that you posted, and it became that much more plausible after Gheb's contract with July was revealed.

Note the arbitrary differences in punishment severity between the contracts. You get posts that are less convenient to read if you mess up, where as July straight up gets her vote taken away, even though the contracts ostensibly are meant to achieve the same end—make a player easier to read. Why would this be? Well, because Gheb's contract with July is real and his contract with you is a farce. Even if he actually calls upon your punishment to be enacted at some point, all that does is serve as a reminder to the fact that he punished you later on in the game. "Why would Ghebscum punish his own teammate?" town would collectively wonder. Only not.

Town as a whole gets nothing out of this. You, as a townie, would get nothing out of this, other than some superficial "challenge" which hardly seems to be a challenge at all (Gheb's threshold for fluff seems pretty lenient, going by what I've seen you post so far). However, you, as scum, would benefit from the unspoken distance this would inherently place between you and Ghebscum for the rest of the game.

Now, you can tell me I'm reaching and I'm only approaching this from one angle and being too negative and all the other lame reasons you have for being suspicious of me, and I expect you will. But this scenario I've posed above seems infinitely more likely to me than what you would have me believe—that you accepted a contract from a player you knew nothing about just for the sake of having a challenge and making yourself easier to read (especially since neither of those things are actually happening).

There is something I have been noticing so far with this game so far Circus is that you are just focusing on others contracts on one another and not really about scum-hunting on the slots themselves. Sure, you can say that you are making your way to finding scum-reads through pursuing Gheb on his contracts but you aren't really being fair with your pursuit but moreso just honing in on one fact of what he has done that is "You can't have possibly been trying to limit J/July to be able to read them." or "You have nothing to gain from accepting the contract." If July/Myself thought the contracts didn't help us at all, we would not have accepted them. That's the bottom line.

There you go again, acting like what we know about the contracts shouldn't impact how we perceive the play of the people who make and accept them. All I'm doing is using the information we have available to us in this game. What would you have me do instead of this, J? I could just point at Raziek and say he's coasting. I could do the same thing to the Kuzdioh slot, although that slot obviously has a better excuse. Or I could just pick out a player and say they're "being too negative" or are focusing too much on mechanics, like you're doing.

But that would be a much shallower form of scumhunting. Which is why I'm choosing not to do that.

I don't like this paragraph isolated her. You are baiting me to assume that we are in the same scenario we were in when you were town. The difference with that game is that I was mafia in that game. I know how you operate, true enough. However, that doesn't excuse the fact that I find you suspicious this game because it feels different so far with what I have grown accusmted to. If you don't believe it then what can I say? It is what I felt and I do feel that you were/are looking at mostly negatives moreso than positives.

The major problems I guess would be that you are being a Debbie Downer on everything going on revolving around other players.

I call it like I see it.

If you want me not to see it this way, then you have to do a better job of explaining your read. What about my play here feels different? Explain why "looking at mostly negatives rather than positives" makes a person scummy; explain why doing so makes me, specifically look scummy, compared to what you think my town play is typically like. The fact that you have not already done this and instead decided to sum things up with "you're focusing on negative things and you're tunneling people" is what makes me think your suspicion of me is insincere. That is what makes me compare it to Majora's Mask. You basically tried to position me for the lynch based on nothing outside of the fact that I was being too aggressive on John and Dastrn early on in that game, rather than examining the intent behind my posts. Your reasoning for doing so in that game became clear after your slot flipped. I suspect the same will be true here.

Being a Debbie Downer does not make a person scum. Especially not for a player who naturally tends to want to discuss suspicious activity and spend little if any time high-fiving people for looking towny. If you want me to think you're seriously scumhunting, and that the serious scumhunting has lead you to me, then you need to come up with some better reasoning. What I've read so far is BS.

You asked a question on Raz, from the beginning he was coming off care-free and now he is begginning to stick his neck out more against certain things. Still null and TBH, I probably am going to be leaning null on a lot of people during this first day phase with purely going off of vibes since this is just going to be a challenge to acquire a read on anyone that is super strong.

Preemptive excuses for null reads that you already expect to have in the future. Implying you can't get strong reads on people on D1.

This is not changing my mind about you.

The bolded bottom portion is really bad for me. Where have I expressed an allegiance to Gheb? Where I have I been buddying him? You are exaggerating the agreeing of his PoV to why he gave me the contract and why I accepted it. You also are twisting what I said when I "immediately defended" Gheb's contract which, in itself, is a bit of an extreme wording because then you say that I started in on you because you "dared" to take issue with stuff. That is not the reason I started in on you, I started in on you because you are purely focusing on the negative of facts and not looking at anything else.

I think I made things pretty clear in my initial post. Try to look at this from my perspective (for someone so concerned with me looking at things from only one angle, you sure seem to be narrow-sighted here). You accept a contract from Gheb limiting your posting style, no bones about it. I point out that the contract looks very one-sided (which I think is reasonable, though obviously I'm biased). In that post, I also ask you to consider the intentions of the player who sent you the contract if you didn't feel like sharing the name of the person. In your very next post, you defended the contract without any visible hesitation and basically said you didn't like my tone. It's important to note that I wasn't even "attacking" you before this point. I was just informing you that I thought you got a raw deal and that you should think about what the contract sender might have wanted out of you. What you responded with basically amounted to "I signed it because I wanted to, I don't see anything anti-town about it, but you I have my eye on because of how you reacted to this news."

You very much seemed to trust Gheb more than me, even though you really shouldn't have any reason to. You gave Gheb the benefit of the doubt in regards to his motives for sending you the contract, but when I pointed out things I didn't like about it, you reacted somewhat hostilely toward me. For no sensible reason.

I do not like the way you are trying to word what I said w.r.t. Gheb/Yourself by saying I never questioned Gheb but I began to question you. It's an inflation of what actually happened and actually not true with how you are trying to tell this story.

Then show me how I have characterized things falsely rather than just saying "no, that's not really what happened." Because that's what happened from where I'm sitting. If you don't refute what I'm saying, then you're conceding the point. If you could properly counter what I'm saying, I would think you would.

I was going to use the contract I already accepted to try and use it to gain me moreso to make a contract with Ryker because he dislikes my emoticon usage. So since I thought if I gave up my emoticons, we could trade off and he could give up his use of the emotion anger/agression.

Was that really it? I don't blame Ryker for turning you down if that's all you gave him. You literally gave him zero incentive to do what you were asking him to do, since you were already bound by another contract to do what you were offering. See, that's what I would expect most people to do—turn down contracts that do not provide them with actual, substantive benefits.

Personally, I am more looking at to how Gheb posts in the thread than the contracts that he has made.

And what conclusions have you drawn based on that so far?

 

[Circus]

Sorry for the wall, but I couldn't bring myself to cut more than I already did. There's obviously plenty I still haven't gotten to (particularly eager to read the back-and-forth that has started between J and OS), but that will have to wait until tomorrow night at the earliest.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What case are people awaiting? I already made my points clear at OS earlier and not only did he not even bother to refute them but he actually confirmed everything straight afterwards.

His "case" on me is a textbook example of an anti-town wall. It's extremely hard to resond to [probably intentionally so] and if you just look at the individual "scum tells" he points out you'll see that they're not actually scum tells at all - they're the same null tells that OS tries to take credit for as I pointed out earlier. There's such a huge double-standard between what he accuses me of and what he takes / gets credit for it's really dumb:

He takes credit for over-emphasizing teamplay while not actually sticking to it himself all that strictly when it fits him. In the same hand he acuses me of "independent useage of contracts [not a scumtell] with anti-town punishments [a.) not true b.) not necessarily enforced], potential lie [not true and essentially irrelevant], OMGUS and WIFOM useage as a defense [both not true at all] and admitted independent actions without pro-town intent [not true]."
All of these are either untrue [I did not WIFOM / OMGUS to defend myself nor did I lie anywhere or an anti-town intent can be proven and is merely speculation] or null-tells misconstrued as scumtells ["no pro-town intent", "anti-town punishments"].

If OS isn't scum then he's the worst townie imagineable and he definitely needs to die, die, die.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Gheb's contract with July, as I understand it, does not solve this problem. The contract just forces her to post more and make cases; it does not necessarily keep her honest. In fact, if anything, it gives her incentive to make up cases on people in order to keep the power to vote. Gheb's answer reads as very insincere to me, and J's support of it doesn't help in this context. It doesn't matter how manipulative July is capable of being—the issue is whether Gheb's contract can even do anything to inhibit that. And it can't.

Once again, it's obvious that you're just twisting everything into a negative. Just because you can't see how forcing July to be more active makes her easier to read you conclude that "it can't" at all? Lying isn't even part of it, I have no idea why you mentioned that word, it has literally NOTHING to do with why I want July to post more [I'm actually one of the few people who doesn't consider a lie a scumtell in most cases]. I can definitely do more with July if it weren't for her not posting a lot and squeezing all points into one larger post.

Besides, what kind of statement is "you can never trust what July is posting because she'll never quite let you know what she's actually saying?" You could replace July's name with the name of anyone in Dgames and still have a true statement. I mean, that's the game. Town's job, in it's most basic form, is to read past this problem as best they can.

And traditionally, town horribly fails to read her correctly. Most importantly though, I can never be sure of my read on her, purely based on how she's playing. So I'm trying to force her to do something new.

The problem here is that you aren't actually refuting my point though. You did say that you would actually prefer July to not have the ability to vote if she's not going to be able to fullfill her contract. It has been highlighted more than once now that this is not smart. It is bad, bad, bad if July is town.

If she's town I won't voteblock her.

Overswarm's request for you to simply not call for the punishment if July breaks contract is reasonable, and you have resisted it. That looks super sketchy, period. You can whine all you like about feeling like I'm trapping you, but the truth is that you're trapping yourself.

What? I have agreed to OS proposal three times already and immediately was OK with it. There was no resistance what so ever. Make up stuff more.

Is that "peanuts, okay," Or "peanuts, go **** yourself?" I wasn't kidding when I said I expect 3 cases from you.

I already have 2 clear-cut scum-picks that I have made cases on and will likely stick to. Time will tell if J or somebody else will be my #3 pick. So yea, "peanuts" as in "easy".

 

[Overswarm]

I'm solid on a Gheb lynch atm.

Still waiting on town's thoughts on the exchange between me and J.

 

[Overswarm]

What case are people awaiting? I already made my points clear at OS earlier and not only did he not even bother to refute them but he actually confirmed everything straight afterwards.

I'd like you to reiterate these, please. I can't seem to find your points; perhaps they are not as clear as you think?

Does anyone reading this know them off the top of their head?

His "case" on me is a textbook example of an anti-town wall. It's extremely hard to resond to [probably intentionally so] and if you just look at the individual "scum tells" he points out you'll see that they're not actually scum tells at all - they're the same null tells that OS tries to take credit for as I pointed out earlier. There's such a huge double-standard between what he accuses me of and what he takes / gets credit for it's really dumb:

I'm not finding any details here.

He takes credit for over-emphasizing teamplay while not actually sticking to it himself all that strictly when it fits him. In the same hand he acuses me of "independent useage of contracts [not a scumtell] with anti-town punishments [a.) not true b.) not necessarily enforced], potential lie [not true and essentially irrelevant], OMGUS and WIFOM useage as a defense [both not true at all] and admitted independent actions without pro-town intent [not true]."
All of these are either untrue [I did not WIFOM / OMGUS to defend myself nor did I lie anywhere or an anti-town intent can be proven and is merely speculation] or null-tells misconstrued as scumtells ["no pro-town intent", "anti-town punishments"].

If OS isn't scum then he's the worst townie imagineable and he definitely needs to die, die, die.

I see you making statements, but no arguments. Where is the meat?

 

[Overswarm]

What? I have agreed to OS proposal three times already and immediately was OK with it. There was no resistance what so ever. Make up stuff more.

I seem to recall you not agreeing to it once.

In fact, you showed that you haven't agreed to it in the same post .

If she's town I won't voteblock her.

Do you understand now?

 

[Overswarm]

Actually, I have more that I want to say on Circus and Gheb, but I just want to see what Asdioh can come up with first, so that I don't potentailly corrupt him.

Because you're currently my town read for the day, I'm going to test that notion.

I want you to send me a new contract, one that I will accept. In it, you will state that after you have publicly stated that Asdioh has responded OR we have someone at L-1 on Day 1, I will then type the message in the contract verbatim. The message in the contract will be your statements on Circus and Gheb; in this way we can see Asdioh's response without corruption and still see yours before he posts. In this way yours won't be shaped in a certain manner either. If we'd like, we can have a signal for the contract meaning that you are ready for me to post the contents of the message when there is a picture of a red balloon posted in the thread. My punishment for not following the contract would be to post a picture of a blue balloon.

The only disadvantage to this is that an Asdioh / Overswarm scum team is possible and this would result in me being able to "feed" Asdioh responses, since I would be able to see the contract and discuss it with him. Since I am the one suggesting this idea, I feel it is logical that I would be the most suspect.

For this reason, I am willing to have the contract go to another individual of town's choosing.

Another potential issue is an Overswarm / Sworddancer scum team, making it possible that I could actually post something that perfectly resonates with what town is feeling at the time of posting; I feel this is not as dangerous as the previously mentioned issue, but it is an issue nontheless.

For this reason, I am willing to have the contract go to two individual instead of one. Know that this improves the odds that, should Asdioh be scum, his scummate would be able to relay info to him.


What does town think of this idea?

 

[Overswarm]

His "case" on me is a textbook example of an anti-town wall. It's extremely hard to resond to [probably intentionally so]

J didn't seem to have much of a problem with it. It was a pretty fast and thorough response, too. You've had time to make plenty of statements and have implied you've read my posts, what's stopping you from responding?

I did not WIFOM / OMGUS to defend myself

O RLY?

Circus, if I were mafia I'd either leave contracts alone for the time being or I wouldn't go any further with them than I did just now.

And regarding July's contract with me I again feel that there's not that much harm involved ... after all, what reason do you have to question July' ability to be a bit more active and be more vocal about her suspects?

That's from one post. The first one is about as black and white as you can get with WIFOM.

Don't forget the fact that the two people you've determined as "definite scum tells" also happen to be the two people pressuring you. Did I mention that they pressured you before you considered them scum, and you have yet to actually make a case on them? Sounds like OMGUS to me.

"independent useage of contracts [not a scumtell] with anti-town punishments [a.) not true b.) not necessarily enforced],

I'm pretty sure attempting to make someone's text unreadable and making someone else lose their vote in an 8 man game prior to your first post of the day is a scum tell.

Those are anti-town punishments, so it is true.

And "not necessarily" enforced? Again, no. For the last time. You don't get a say in this. They aren't enforced, ever. They are, you die, and that's assuming you live past toDay.

potential lie [not true and essentially irrelevant],

Catching you in a lie that someone else backed you up on in regards to contracts is incredibly relevant. I'm not quite sure how you think it isn't.

You're right about the "not true" part, at least I strongly believe so. You were backed up by other players, so at the very least we have a connection if there are lies there.

OMGUS and WIFOM useage as a defense [both not true at all]

Stated above.

and admitted independent actions without pro-town intent [not true]."

Ahem:

It's true though, that I shouldn't get any pro-town cred for these contracts. I'm doing them for my own, personal benefit, which may or may not help town in the long run ... but I wanna try it out anyway. It's a complete null-tell unless the contract is just completely anti-town right away.

I'm not even gonna lie, the punishment in my contract is rather harsh and the fact that she was willing to risk her vote toMorrow to cooperate is a positive sign to me.

Those are your own posts, referenced in my post on Day 0. I'm pretty sure those are independent actions without pro-town intent, considering you stated that the punishment is harsh, you shouldn't get pro-town cred for the contracts, did them for your own personal benefit, and openly acknowledge that they might not help town out in the long run but you want to do it anyway.

All of these are either untrue [I did not WIFOM / OMGUS to defend myself nor did I lie anywhere or an anti-town intent can be proven and is merely speculation]

Well you lied in this post, that's for sure.

As for "anti-town intent" being proven versus speculation, welcome to mafia. Everything is speculation in mafia, and we've got a whole heap of things you've done now that don't quite line up with town goals. This leads us to the "dumb or scum" scenario we're all so familiar with, and I don't think anyone is going to fall back on "dumb" this game.

or null-tells misconstrued as scumtells ["no pro-town intent", "anti-town punishments"].

Have you noticed a pattern with how people feel about your actions? If they're null-tells to you, you need to re-evaluate. Voteblocking July in an 8 man game on Day 2 IS ANTI-TOWN.

Hell, it'd be anti-town if she somehow was mod confirmed as scum. You're taking away a vote, making it hard for town to direct a lynch, and you're taking away the ability to read July (hey, what was your contract for again?) in the case that we DO think she's scum.

Oh, but it wouldn't matter if we thought she was scum because we'd just lynch her, right?

Then why is voteblocking her important?

Literally the only scenario when voteblocking J could be beneficial for town is if she is mafia, you voteblock her, and town doesn't want to lynch her. In that scenario, that's Gheb pulling a wild card and voteblocking her because he feels she is scum despite the fact that she is apparently so hard for him to read that he needs a special contract to do it.

It's so bass-ackwards its not even funny. Get your head screwed on straight.

 

[Asdioh]

do you guys

Spoiler

overswarm

have any idea how unappealing reading this game is? Just looking at it makes me want to throw up. I'll get to it now -_-

 

[Asdioh]

ih8sd0

ow, my feelings

 

[Asdioh]

I don't know if this has explicitly been mentioned yet, but I've been thinking about what alignments would have what motivation (and if it would help to point it out)

Town of course wants to find the SK first so he doesn't potentially kill us at night, thus bolstering town's numbers and giving us infinite time to hunt for the mafia team. You guys realize we can No Lynch freely once the SK's gone?

Mafia would... want to lynch townies first, and then find a way to avoid SK kills? Maybe lynch SK on D2 or something?

SK wants to get rid of the mafia ASAP, and I expect he or she will be hard to differentiate from a townie.



This game has way too much discussion about contracts and it's annoying.
Speaking of which,
@Raziek: are you as inactive as I think you are? Have you sent/received any contracts? I'm thinking about making a contract with you that will force us both to be active, as it may motivate both of us. What do you think about that? (I need to reread the contract rules before I do anything like that, I'm still not 100% sure how they work)

 

[#HBC | J]

By the way, J, nice job trying to color July's name with the phrase "treacherous witch of manipulation" for no reason. Little too eager to throw FUD, methinks.

I guess it's due to my lack of tone but that was a joke because I love July to absolute death, but she knows I'm frightened of her because she has burned me in the past. I don't like the way you try and nettle the argument with that final sentence.

The only explanation that makes sense is that you get something out of this contract that is more valuable than what you're actually divulging, and is not even necessarily written explicitly in the contract. More on that next.

Oh I really wish I could use pictures to explain the amount of "...wtf is this?" I am reading. Are you really trying to suggest this? What kind of rationale is this?

The one explanation I can think of that justifies you accepting the contract Gheb proposed to you is if, as I said before, you get something out of it that you're not letting on. What might that be? Distancing. This contract makes sense if, rather than being done for the sake of making you easier to read, it was instead done to make you look town if your scumbuddy Gheb should die at some point (or vice versa, I suppose). This was a possibility that popped into my mind very shortly after reading the details of the contract that you posted, and it became that much more plausible after Gheb's contract with July was revealed.

Now, you can tell me I'm reaching and I'm only approaching this from one angle and being too negative and all the other lame reasons you have for being suspicious of me, and I expect you will. But this scenario I've posed above seems infinitely more likely to me than what you would have me believe—that you accepted a contract from a player you knew nothing about just for the sake of having a challenge and making yourself easier to read (especially since neither of those things are actually happening).

Why do you always try and poison the water with your arguments before you post them? It's logical fallacies that just drive me insane Circus when you are trying to argue where I don't honestly see the town intent behind trying to mess up a person's defense before even having them be able to. It just reminds me of PF mafia where you did this non-stop and had to be cop-cleared.

This logic is just....so....wrong. Your conspiracy theory around Me-Gheb based on this dumb contract is infuriating because of just how wrong it is. I can't even fathom into words of just how much....pure no...is in this quote. You are seriously saying that Me-Gheb = scum-team who made a contract like this and that is the ONLY reason this makes sense? NO, Circus, this is not the only reason this makes sense and it just reaching a really bad point.

I'm dropping this part of the conversation because I cannot even go further into this logic without needing a break of just meh. What are you doing Circus?

I want my emoticons/pictures of tears back so much at this moment. This contract was so dumb.

That is what makes me compare it to Majora's Mask. You basically tried to position me for the lynch based on nothing outside of the fact that I was being too aggressive on John and Dastrn early on in that game, rather than examining the intent behind my posts. Your reasoning for doing so in that game became clear after your slot flipped. I suspect the same will be true here.

This is the reason you are referencing MM mafia? Oh boy....Circus this is COMPLETELY not even close to the same situation besides the pure fact that I am pushing you. Me pushing you as a scum-pick =/= me being scum NOR did I ever bring up that you were aggressive since your first post, most of the comments have been to your overall negativity towards situations. You used similar logic to push my ML as town in PF and ended up siding with EE due to your tunneliness and the fact that I pushed you that game with Gheb.

Preemptive excuses for null reads that you already expect to have in the future. Implying you can't get strong reads on people on D1.

This is not changing my mind about you.

Just a side-note, I never really have strong reads D1. I usually have feels where I want to go, but I like playing with garunteed info instead. I don't get why you are trying to twist a normal fact about myself as scummy.

I even remember telling you this in AT Mafia when I was sending you my notes....I am so lost with you right now.

And what conclusions have you drawn based on that so far?

Already pointed out within Me vs. OS.

~Segway time~

Alright, I am going to be re-arranging my thoughts in this post. I was thinking about this on the way home while I was driving and my responses to Circus....I have realized the major problem I have with Circus is the fact that he is using bad reasoning to support most of his posts. I had the same problem with him in PF mafia where he continously tried to lynch me off meta/connections that weren't there or conspiracy theory problems.

I'm going to apologize and just move on because I feel the major thing that is bugging me on Circus is the fact that I don't like his argument style this game which seems to focus on things that are just theories that don't do much and just...I can't explain it.

It takes a lot of willpower to say/do this but I am going to say that I don't find Circus as scum at this present time after our argument but that I just find him as really incredulously silly town in my book for the time being. My problem revolves around the way he is going about doing his business but after reading his post over a lot of times (I did this because at first I couldn't believe what I was reading but then it hit me in a different light that I wasn't thinking through all the possibilites of what he was saying) my gut is telling me he isn't scummy enough to deserve my vote and I am letting my inner battle of logistics get in the way of a read.

I'm going to try re-reading this game in a bit after I do a few things but I'm going to go ahead and unvote till I find a new place for it. I'm thinking Gheb (maybe) at the current time before my re-read but I think I may be led to someone else during my read.

Unvote

I have a few questions for a few people:

July, what is your opinion of Circus after his posts responding to me since that seemed to be your personal big qualm with him. If you couldn't have Circus lynched, who would you have lynched instead?

Asdioh, why did you not comment on anything regarding OS/Myself/Circus/Gheb? It seemed like you were focusing more on the fact of game mechanics and what do there then you try and shine some light onto Raz for an odd reason that seems like a peace-treaty.

 

[#HBC | J]

FoS: Asdioh

That 184 is bugging me a bit.

 

[Asdioh]

I'm at the top of page 5, posting this before finishing

Hello Asdioh, welcome to the game.

Yeah, while you're catching up, I'm going to need you, to give me, an opinion on Gheeeeeb. It would be really good for my reads, and fffffff this game is kinda moving more slowly than I expected it to, so if you could just do that that would be great.

Since people apparently really want me to answer this, I'd say Gheb can be more town than overswarm because his posts are less annoying to read <I take this back later in this post> and I think scumGheb would be smarter with things like contracts that cause potential voteloss, which is where a lot of suspicion on him is coming from. He's not dumb, he would know it's "scummy" to make a "potential townie" lose their vote, so why would he put that needless suspicion on himself?

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14161936&postcount=118 I strongly agree with the first sentence <again taken back below>
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14162694&postcount=138 like
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14163685&postcount=142 like
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14163696&postcount=143 already "pinning" all three scumslots when two players (asdioh and raziek) have done essentially nothing? Weird.

@Everyone: I would like your opinion on OS posting a read list by Day's end, and rather or not it would be beneficial for town.

I'd prefer if he did that kind of thing of his own accord, actually. It might be harder to get a read on him if he's "forced" to.


http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14164223&postcount=156 I can easily agree with the top of OS' post here, and would be fine with not lynching Swords toDay. Plus, I have found nothing scummy from Swords myself.

Gheb sent in contracts after I had posted "no one do any contracts" in very clear terms, followed by Ryker saying "I don't see why town would even mess with contracts at all". If Gheb sent in contract despite this, he's scum or a fool.

But he knows this, which is why he prefaced "I sent in contracts" with "I already sent in my contract requests". The question is whether Gheb sent them in before Ryker and I made our posts or after; if it's after, I'd heavily suggest a Gheb lynch toDay.

Just because he doesn't agree with you and Ryker doesn't make him dumb or scum. Such arrogance!

Anyway, just finished OS' #156 and I can see nothing but town intent there. I may not agree with all of it, but I have no qualms, and it's making me feel better about him. Since that implies I didn't have a good feeling about him, yes, up until this point I had been worried he was scum trying to fake content like I've seen him do before by "leading" town and talking extensively about mechanics and theory. This looks legit though.

That's exactly what it means, Gheb. It's yomi. If I'm scum and I get a bull**** contract like that, I'm accepting it in a heartbeat because I gain free town points and get to do it before any rules are set in place.

EXACTLY. This may be why I've had bad, yet inexplicable, vibes about J all game. For the record, I've been reading the last few pages with the biggest desire to lynch J above anyone else, but I haven't been commenting much on it because I don't know exactly what I would use against him. I thought it might just be shaky meta, or something to do with the fact that he's posting "differently" because of a contract.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14164605&postcount=160 I like this. Numberwise, town is weak this game after one mislynch, but with correct usage of contracts, they can easily offset that. Is this something you'd rather wait until D2 for? There are only ~4 days left of D1.



I'm positive I saw Raziek viewing roughly an hour ago when I made my last post, and he hasn't responded. :|

afk for a while then reading page 5

 

[#HBC | J]

Wait, Asdioh, was 184 made before you read the game?

 

[Asdioh]

I think I was about most of the way through page 3 (40ppp) when I made #184. I didn't notice until after I posted that OS already pointed out some of the things I did there.

 

[#HBC | J]

Harumph....that read-through wasn't really enlightening. The most I got was that I dislike Raz's noncommittal stances with everything he posts. For each negative towards a person, he has a positive. I can't tell whether it's a backdoor or him just not really taking a stance on people yet like he said. I just really want more actual stuff from Raz than the thing I have already brought up.

@July/Asdioh/Raz: What are your opinion on Gheb? What do you think about lynching him toDay? Is there someone you feel is better for the lynch, if so can ya explain it please?

I'm probably going to try and stay out of the conversations a bit in order to read things better since I feel I've been in the center of things a bit too much but I'll still be here with questions and the like.

 

[#HBC | J]

I think I was about most of the way through page 3 (40ppp) when I made #184. I didn't notice until after I posted that OS already pointed out some of the things I did there.

That's probably the reason I was worried because I felt you were just parroting the mechanic talk. Alright, thank you for that.

^^^Answer my above post please. Thank you.

 

[Asdioh]

OS deserves death for 156. Most misleading piece of filth ever written.

Suddenly, disagreement.

 

[#HBC | J]

One more thing, here are how my reads are lining up at the moment from after all this stuffs that went on.

Not okay to lynch toDay: OS/Swords
Only lynch if a compelling case came along: July/Circus
Null completely: Asdioh
Okay to lynch: Gheb/Raziek

 

[Asdioh]

Though on a funny note, this game is Asdioh's nightmare I can already tell because of it is deceptive. It looks like it doesn't have a lot of posts but they are all pretty lengthy posts and well...he hates long posts. Just a random thought heh.

I don't think it's just me. ಠ_ಠ

By the way, J, nice job trying to color July's name with the phrase "treacherous witch of manipulation" for no reason. Little too eager to throw FUD, methinks.

Circus' meticulous attention to detail might be part of the reason I have a townread on him.

Don't want to lynch: Swords, Circus, probably OS
Null: Raziek, July (as always)
Will need to read more but am probably content with lynching: J, Gheb

@people: thoughts on a deadline extension for D1? I realize this game only has 8 players, and it has a crapload of annoying walls, but it's still only on page 5.

 

[Asdioh]

I don't think you'll necessarily fail. And I don't think you having to post in black text is some atrocious slight against Town. Allow me to be frank about this.

The one explanation I can think of that justifies you accepting the contract Gheb proposed to you is if, as I said before, you get something out of it that you're not letting on. What might that be? Distancing. This contract makes sense if, rather than being done for the sake of making you easier to read, it was instead done to make you look town if your scumbuddy Gheb should die at some point (or vice versa, I suppose). This was a possibility that popped into my mind very shortly after reading the details of the contract that you posted, and it became that much more plausible after Gheb's contract with July was revealed.

Note the arbitrary differences in punishment severity between the contracts. You get posts that are less convenient to read if you mess up, where as July straight up gets her vote taken away, even though the contracts ostensibly are meant to achieve the same end—make a player easier to read. Why would this be? Well, because Gheb's contract with July is real and his contract with you is a farce. Even if he actually calls upon your punishment to be enacted at some point, all that does is serve as a reminder to the fact that he punished you later on in the game. "Why would Ghebscum punish his own teammate?" town would collectively wonder. Only not.

Town as a whole gets nothing out of this. You, as a townie, would get nothing out of this, other than some superficial "challenge" which hardly seems to be a challenge at all (Gheb's threshold for fluff seems pretty lenient, going by what I've seen you post so far). However, you, as scum, would benefit from the unspoken distance this would inherently place between you and Ghebscum for the rest of the game.

Now, you can tell me I'm reaching and I'm only approaching this from one angle and being too negative and all the other lame reasons you have for being suspicious of me, and I expect you will. But this scenario I've posed above seems infinitely more likely to me than what you would have me believe—that you accepted a contract from a player you knew nothing about just for the sake of having a challenge and making yourself easier to read (especially since neither of those things are actually happening).

best gif I could find to sum up my feelings about this section :3

I especially like the bolded. "Being negative about everything" isn't necessarily a bad thing, when you're trying to find people who want to manipulate you. Looking for malicious intent is possibly the best approach, and J's arguments against Circus are weak.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

I hate walls.

You guys talk too much. Ugh, anyways, guess I should read up on this.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Been busy with stuff, here's what I got so far.

July I mostly agree with your 153, but I don't see what Circus "isolating it between only him and J" has anything to do with it. Obviously if Circus was responding to a case made against him by J he's going to only focus on J. Sounds like you're just attacking him for not playing optimally there IMO.

@154 July people give off town reads all the time. People have already been giving them out. We shouldn't be limiting ourselves out of fear of the SK, cus the sk probably going to know who's townie anyways. Plus this game they're probably going to be looking for the doc anyways.

@155: MY two cents on contracts is simply that there probably isn't going to be any balaently scummy ones out there. In matter of fact, like I said before, scum themselves actually has an incentive to scumhunt, and contracts will probably reflect that. So yeah, unless they are super obvious scummy then they are best taken as null.

OS I don't think my contract against you was dumb. Having you post reads really does help my reads, especially if you're scum. But hey though, I'll take that clear.

Super agree on your points against Gheb in that post.

Don't know why you actually think it's scummy for Gheb to have made J's punishment "posting in black text." It's hard reaching to say that Gheb's scum motivation in that contract was to get J to post in black text, even though that doesn't really benefit scum in any way shape or form.

Not feeling comfortable creating a "vote slave" until after the sk is dead.

I dislike this. The idea that Gheb and only Gheb will be able to read through July and that his contract will prevent her from mesmerizing town and fooling us all is, to be honest, idiotic.

I would replace the word "idiotic" with the word "paranoid," which is in itself scummy.

OS I can confirm that J sent the contract to my slot AFTER Gheb sent his contract to J's, if Gheb really did send in the contract around 1:30pm (I don't doubt this).

Okay lol I guess I don't need to make a contract with OS after that. Looks like he's doing what I wanted him to do anyways.

Besides from a couple of disagreements I have with OS, I like how he is definitely looking at things from all angles. He definitely wants to catch scum, so he can town for now.

Saving commenting on J and OS for another time bus it's ****ing long and I can't finish reading this game if I'm going to be focusing on that.

Skimming stuff. Gheb trying t discredit OS wall by calling it anti-town and accusing OS of using "null tells" even though they're really not. Skipping OS counter response and J counter response.Reed Circus's post and I agree with it. Asdioh's catch up post is . . . unimpressive. Not scummy, and I agree with him, but it's nothing new. Agree with J's point about Raz, as when I went to reread him when I thought J requested me to I found mostly the same thing.

Sorry OS, but it looks like Asdioh has already posted, so you're going to just have to trust me on this one.

Anyways, my "other" point about Gheb has actually kinda already been made by OS. It has to do with Gheb's lack of "pro-town" motivation.

You see, I think Circus is ultimately right, but for the wrong reasons. Circus has been suggesting that Gheb has SCUM motivation in his contracts, and this is most evident in his posts about "Gheb trying to get J to post in black." Honestly it's a hard reach to suggest that scum would actually come up with such a convoluted plan to try to get people to focus less on one specific player ("I know! I'll send this one player a contract that I think they will probably fail at so to get them to post in black so that people will be more likely to skim them! HAHA!").

However, there is something scummy about what Gheb is doing (or rather, isn't doing), and J's (and July's) contracts are examples of it. What gheb has lacked this game is town intent, plain and simple.

For one, the contracts I think more than anything are contracts sent out for the simple sake of sending out a contract. It looks "pro-town" for Gheb to send a contract to help him "read" people, but when one really examines the contracts one finds (as others have pointed out) that they really lack pro-town motivation. Getting J to post less emotionally or getting July to vote three people toDay are all just artificial modifications to their play that does not necessarily help anyone "read" them.

I think it was ballocks for Gheb to suggest that "scum doesn't have a reason to use contracts" when they're plenty of reasons for scum to use contracts, just as * ahem * trying to appear pro-town.

Futhermore, I believe it's extreme sketchy that Gheb has basically pinned the sk and mafia team off of what has been said toDay. However, if you go and actually read what he said in his 143, you would find that he is categorizing J and OS in the mafia and Circus as the sk based off of nothing but Circus "always making negatives out of everything," which is supposedly a sk move (don't know why, Gheb doesn't say). Also note that although he has Circus has sk he's voting OS. Again, don't know why. All in all, it reads disingenuous to me.

About Circus, I didn't actually like him before, as I saw him vs. Gheb as potential SvS, or at the very least TvS. However, his most recent posts are making me rethink that, as they actually rise some interesting points about J/Gheb mafia which I hadn't considered before. I know it might seem paranoid to be calling mafia teams now but there is definitely a discrepancy between Gheb's punishment of J and his punishment of July that's worth noting.

Anyways, previous suspicion of Circus lays in . . . ugh . . . his tendency to focus mostly on the "negatives." Yes I know this has been pointed out 10,000 times by now, but I really do think it's a legit point, because like Gheb's posts, his posts where he was reaching for accusations seemed disingenuous. Some of his attacks, lik his early suspicion of gheb and his the post where he counter voted J, are simply not founded in good reasoning.

*sigh*

Still though, Circus recent posts are good, and Gheb reads a lot more "disingenuous" than Circus, so my vote is probably going to be staying on him toDay.

 

[Overswarm]

Futhermore, I believe it's extreme sketchy that Gheb has basically pinned the sk and mafia team off of what has been said toDay.

I also find it sketchy and stupid, but I also find it Gheb. While stupid and something Gheb shouldn't do since its not helpful to town at all, I am not surprised at Gheb doing so.

Also note that although he has Circus has sk he's voting OS. Again, don't know why. All in all, it reads disingenuous to me.

That is interesting. I could understand an argument how it is optimal play to find mafia first, as the SK is himself going after mafia... killing the SK before he finds mafia would result in us having to find the 2 hidden scum. It is in the SK's best interest to kill anti-town roles and to hide himself among town and then win after mafia is dead or down to one (they are the same to the SK). Until that time, it is against the SK's wincon to kill the most confirmed townies as he's basically making the game more likely to come down to him and a two man mafia team; once all the mafia are gone anyone is fair game including the most townie of townies. I'd still be pretty happy with a D1 SK lynch though.

But I don't think Gheb thought that way or that far. So, still interesting.

 

[July]

@town

I'd like for J to immediately break the contract. Gheb will not report the contract being broken in any way, shape, or form.

I'd like to put an end to the bull**** here in regards to pointless contracts.

Does anyone disagree?

I agree with that idea.

I've read over all of the walls OS has posted and I don't have an issue with what he's posted so far. I find the points on Gheb to be the strongest because it's where OS has dug deepest into intent and a lot of the intent behind not just the contracts, but Gheb's play toDay has been self-interested, and his simple dismissal of OS' case against him is what I find most incriminating. The points OS makes about J are good as well and I think there are a lot of valid points, but J's response at least gives something back and tries to provide more information for town to analyze and comprehend, and I appreciate that J has been scum-hunting and interacting with other players despite having cases and a lot of questions for him from OS and Circus.

Others, thoughts on mine and J's exchange?

OS definitely had stronger points than J and I trust OS' intentions to a greater extent than J. J's responses don't always convince me, like his response about not seeing other people's point of view on the contract and I didn't expect him to be surprised that his stance on Gheb hadn't been "crystal clear" because talk about the contracts and talk about Gheb's play didn't merge into a coherent read on Gheb from J until his response post to OS. However, I do like a few of his points such as his challenging OS' wording such as calling his defense of Gheb "aggressive" because I want that kind of attention that questions whether someone is being honest or stretching the facts; in this case I don't think OS was intentionally trying to stretch J's actions to look scummier than they are, but it's a good consideration. I also like J's definition of his own reasons for his issues with Circus and it makes me think his backing off of Circus in his #185 could be genuine rather than an arbitrary action.

 

[July]

The one explanation I can think of that justifies you accepting the contract Gheb proposed to you is if, as I said before, you get something out of it that you're not letting on. What might that be? Distancing. This contract makes sense if, rather than being done for the sake of making you easier to read, it was instead done to make you look town if your scumbuddy Gheb should die at some point (or vice versa, I suppose). This was a possibility that popped into my mind very shortly after reading the details of the contract that you posted, and it became that much more plausible after Gheb's contract with July was revealed.

Note the arbitrary differences in punishment severity between the contracts. You get posts that are less convenient to read if you mess up, where as July straight up gets her vote taken away, even though the contracts ostensibly are meant to achieve the same end—make a player easier to read. Why would this be? Well, because Gheb's contract with July is real and his contract with you is a farce. Even if he actually calls upon your punishment to be enacted at some point, all that does is serve as a reminder to the fact that he punished you later on in the game. "Why would Ghebscum punish his own teammate?" town would collectively wonder. Only not.

This is a really interesting theory, and something that I did notice is that when I asked J for his thoughts on the contract between Gheb and I and whether it affect his opinion on his own contract, he said

The contract between you and Gheb is somewhat similar between the one between myself and him. He has talked to both of us about what he feels are weaknesses in our plays after games. It doesn't really do much of anything with regards to affecting my opinion. Intentions are null at best because there are ways it could go.
Personally, I am more looking at to how Gheb posts in the thread than the contracts that he has made.

I was a bit surprised that he didn't mention or wasn't affect by the differences in severity of the two contracts. They were both similar in that the supposed intent behind them was to help Gheb read both of us, yet I see very few similarities in the actual contracts themselves and the actions requested/punishments to be enforced.

This theory doesn't make me incredibly suspicious of J nor does it make me want to lynch him toDay, but it does make J someone I would very strongly look into on a Gheb scum flip.

If you want me not to see it this way, then you have to do a better job of explaining your read. What about my play here feels different? Explain why "looking at mostly negatives rather than positives" makes a person scummy; explain why doing so makes me, specifically look scummy, compared to what you think my town play is typically like. The fact that you have not already done this and instead decided to sum things up with "you're focusing on negative things and you're tunneling people" is what makes me think your suspicion of me is insincere. That is what makes me compare it to Majora's Mask. You basically tried to position me for the lynch based on nothing outside of the fact that I was being too aggressive on John and Dastrn early on in that game, rather than examining the intent behind my posts. Your reasoning for doing so in that game became clear after your slot flipped. I suspect the same will be true here.

This I also agree with and makes me feel better about Circus' immediate response to J's post. Unlike the first post where Circus used meta to stand alone, here he supports his feelings on why he thinks J's suspicions of him are insincere with the meta and explains the use of such meta in this context.