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LGBT Smashers

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Airgemini

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I remember watching an episode of the Tyra Banks show about how to tell if a guy was gay or not. They had some pretty interesting tests, like for example they said that straight guys are shown to their ring finger longer that their index, while gay guys are even or slightly even.

Can someone explain what the difference is between bisexual and transsexual?
Bisexual likes both genders, while a transexual is someone who desperately tries to change their gender, or dresses up as the opposite sex, get operations for sex change, etc.
 

Timbers

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What would you say to the argument that homosexuality/bisexuality is wrong? I could make a pretty good "factual" case for that, completely ignoring any moral standpoint. I'm pretty sure your feelings would get in the way of that argument.
Well, I said to name a subject, rather than a specific opinion of said subject. If you try to start an argument based on opinionated circumstances, then you're obviously not going to pull anything but more opinions.

I'm not a very emotional person in regards to debates, so no it really wouldn't. I can sit back and try to understand the opposer's logic and beliefs, rather than getting flustered over another person's personal agenda.


--

Bisexual is being sexually attracted to both sexes. Transsexual is a person wanting to take on the opposite gender's physical, mental, or social role. Who they're attracted to isn't always related to them being transsexual. If I recall correctly, didn't Washington or Oregon recently elect a transsexual governor, yet the guy had a girlfriend and considers himself straight if I remember correctly.
 

Timbers

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I remember watching an episode of the Tyra Banks show about how to tell if a guy was gay or not. They had some pretty interesting tests, like for example they said that straight guys are shown to their ring finger longer that their index, while gay guys are even or slightly even.
.
Mine are..the same length. xD

That's interesting if they actually went through do study this. I wonder what compelled them to even consider checking that.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Mine are..the same length. xD

That's interesting if they actually went through do study this. I wonder what compelled them to even consider checking that.
I saw one of those tests. I took it and guess what? I came out on the straight end of every single question. I wasn't even slightly gay :laugh:. And that couldn't be too much more incorrect.:chuckle:

so yeah... that's just a pseudoscience. All those tests are just for things you'd get from your parents genetically whether you are gay or not.
 

The furosious robot has left

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I am not gay, so why do I visit this thread so often?
--
Anyway, I am quite annoyed by ignorant homophobes. An intelligent person who disagrees, sure, I admire your points and respect you for that. But when somebody only gives me a reason like "it's just wrong" like an elitist who thinks their opinions are factual. If somebody is a homophobe, but is quite intelligent, I still dislike that, but I can at least respect them.

Also, this post is about as big as my sig, so I won't risk it.
 

Bassoonist

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I personally can't respect homophobia at all. There is no excuse for it.
 

Teran

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I personally can't respect homophobia at all. There is no excuse for it.
Don't respect it, accept it.

There is an excuse and there is a reason. It's called "indoctrination".

Homophobia will exist until the end of the Earth, live with it.
 

Brav3r

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Heh, kind of hard for me to say i can accept homophobia.
i hope when "accept it" is said, it means, realize that
homophobia does occur.
 

Veril

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Don't respect it, accept it.

There is an excuse and there is a reason. It's called "indoctrination".

Homophobia will exist until the end of the Earth, live with it.
This is a sad statement and logically inconsistent. Anything that is the result of indoctrination can be eliminated. Its all relative to the state of the society.

While it may always "exist" that doesn't mean it needs to be common, acceptable or taught. People are far more accepting of interracial marriage and relationships now than say... Loving vs. Virginia in 1967 when the supreme court first made anti-miscegenation laws illegal. The times change, albeit more slowly than we would like.
 

Mazaloth

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I am not gay, so why do I visit this thread so often?
--
Anyway, I am quite annoyed by ignorant homophobes. An intelligent person who disagrees, sure, I admire your points and respect you for that. But when somebody only gives me a reason like "it's just wrong" like an elitist who thinks their opinions are factual. If somebody is a homophobe, but is quite intelligent, I still dislike that, but I can at least respect them.

Also, this post is about as big as my sig, so I won't risk it.
This thead isn't just for the gay.
Any person can participate. Gay, Lesbian, Transgender.
Hell, I'm Asexual, and I still talk. It is just a place to hangout.
 

The furosious robot has left

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If anybody tells me that they are gay (I am straight) they are ever-so-shocked that I don't care and do not even insult them.

Also, one time I said that I don't mind gays, and said that I had several friends whom were gay. They then stared me like I just said I was an alien.

Too many people being brainwashed nowadays.
 

Mazaloth

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If anybody tells me that they are gay (I am straight) they are ever-so-shocked that I don't care and do not even insult them.

Also, one time I said that I don't mind gays, and said that I had several friends whom were gay. They then stared me like I just said I was an alien.

Too many people being brainwashed nowadays.

Well, it is a natural expectation to feel akward or overestimate reactions. It isn't easy coming out, the standard expectation of the one who is being told is shock, disappointment, and anger.

We learn to expect the worse out of things, this is used as a defense mechanism for our personal safety. So, it is surprising to the person if others don't care.

All in all, it isn't 'brainwashing', but simply a defense against harm. Hopefully, Humans will become more tolerant and accepting so that the defense will no longer be needed.
 

Albert.

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Is there a type of person thats straight but think's it'd be kind of cool and funny to be gay or Bi?

That'd be me LMAO

anyway, I live in south florida where things are def alot different when it comes to acceptance of LGBT people. very liberal.

:( for those in Bible-Belt or regressive areas
 

The furosious robot has left

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Well, it is a natural expectation to feel akward or overestimate reactions. It isn't easy coming out, the standard expectation of the one who is being told is shock, disappointment, and anger.

We learn to expect the worse out of things, this is used as a defense mechanism for our personal safety. So, it is surprising to the person if others don't care.

All in all, it isn't 'brainwashing', but simply a defense against harm. Hopefully, Humans will become more tolerant and accepting so that the defense will no longer be needed.
I meant brainwashing as in things such as
1.)Sexual education not mentioning homosexuality, or just throwing it out there one time so they don't get complaints.
2.)The word "Gay" being considered an insult.
3.)People treating gays like minority.
 

Albert.

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I HATE it that people use "gay" as an insult. whenever any of my friends uses it I reprimand them. and all of them are gay-friendly.

I have some gay friends who I've caught using the word like a bad thing LOL
 

Timbers

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I saw one of those tests. I took it and guess what? I came out on the straight end of every single question. I wasn't even slightly gay :laugh:. And that couldn't be too much more incorrect.:chuckle:

so yeah... that's just a pseudoscience. All those tests are just for things you'd get from your parents genetically whether you are gay or not.
oh I wasn't giving it any weight, just thought it was a funny coincidence that my index and ring finger are same length, and then went on to ask how in the world they even considered checking or claiming that the length of fingers would be any indication :dizzy:
I personally can't respect homophobia at all. There is no excuse for it.
Be tolerant of it. You should expect people to be tolerant of your lifestyle and your personal beliefs, so it's a bit expected to be tolerant of their decisions and opinions.
I have some gay friends who I've caught using the word like a bad thing LOL
Not shocking. Being gay or being straight isn't going change your verbal vocabulary or hold any specific word in higher regards just because you "are something."

i think thats gonna be a problem for a long time. especially for the catholic schools.

its nice to see we have some moar straight friends here. :)
I don't think it's so much a problem as the curriculum is trying to target the majority. It's common sense that most school kids are straight, or at least believe themselves to be straight until they aren't bound by expectations or family. Speaking of sex ed in a homosexual sense would probably be irrelevant to most of a class, if not all of it.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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oh I wasn't giving it any weight, just thought it was a funny coincidence that my index and ring finger are same length, and then went on to ask how in the world they even considered checking or claiming that the length of fingers would be any indication :dizzy:
they merely insisted/detected that there was a correlation between the two, it's ridiculous to postulate a causailty from just that information though.
 

Queen

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@Queen: Sexual deviance aside, queer still denotes some one that by definition doesn't fit it. Partially why calling people queer can easily by construed as offensive, saying that they basically don't belong. And anyway, its sounds as if this is meant to a totally new lifestyle (rather doubtful of these "liberated" lifestyles which imply everyone else is somehow missing the point) unlike any other which still makes it queer in the non-sexual outlier definition.
As per the first part of this paragraph, my understanding of Queer is that it's meant to remove concepts like "normalcy," and, in so doing, create a new normalcy of inclusion based on acceptance of personal desire. As for the second part of your paragraph, I'm having a difficult time reading and understanding. It seems as though words are missing, would you care to make this clearer to me?:confused:

Timbers, I do not agree with your declaration of tolerance of homophobia, unless, of course, you mean somewhat more than what I have read, which is entirely possible. As it stands, however, I do not see the purpose in tolerating homophobia. It ought to be eradicated through discussion and enlightenment. I feel like you might have meant for us to tolerate the people espousing homophobia (is this true, or am I being presumptuous?). I cannot say I do it well, but I can say I see the point in doing so. It's better to educate than to eliminate.:)
 

Timbers

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Timbers, I do not agree with your declaration of tolerance of homophobia, unless, of course, you mean somewhat more than what I have read, which is entirely possible. As it stands, however, I do not see the purpose in tolerating homophobia. It ought to be eradicated through discussion and enlightenment. I feel like you might have meant for us to tolerate the people espousing homophobia (is this true, or am I being presumptuous?). I cannot say I do it well, but I can say I see the point in doing so. It's better to educate than to eliminate.:)
Judging from past experiences of this topic and others, I seem to be a bit less sensitive to these sorts of subjects than other people. Homophobia doesn't bother me. I've had a former acquaintance of mine chew me out for liking guys, and I just blew him off, told him to get over it, and stop being so butthurt 'bout it.

But with that aside, yes I think you should tolerate homophobic beliefs and opinions (which ultimately means tolerating the person with that logic). In doing so, you already prove you have a higher mentality and understanding, rather than being hateful and ignorant towards the, well, hateful and ignorant. You really have to remember that the idea of homosexuality for most people who don't actually indulge in such a lifestyle tends to be stereotypical visions, which ultimately is just an abstract miscommunication. If you can enlighten them about it then sure, go ahead, but at least tolerate it. So long as they're not going around committing hate crimes over it, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Hate breeds hate. I don't see the point in it, better to just leave it alone.
 

Smooth Criminal

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Judging from past experiences of this topic and others, I seem to be a bit less sensitive to these sorts of subjects than other people. Homophobia doesn't bother me. I've had a former acquaintance of mine chew me out for liking guys, and I just blew him off, told him to get over it, and stop being so butthurt 'bout it.

But with that aside, yes I think you should tolerate homophobic beliefs and opinions (which ultimately means tolerating the person with that logic). In doing so, you already prove you have a higher mentality and understanding, rather than being hateful and ignorant towards the, well, hateful and ignorant. You really have to remember that the idea of homosexuality for most people who don't actually indulge in such a lifestyle tends to be stereotypical visions, which ultimately is just an abstract miscommunication. If you can enlighten them about it then sure, go ahead, but at least tolerate it. So long as they're not going around committing hate crimes over it, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Hate breeds hate. I don't see the point in it, better to just leave it alone.
Timbers, you pretty much summed up how I feel on a day-to-day basis when it comes to this sorta stuff.

<3

Smooth Criminal
 

Mazaloth

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Is there a type of person thats straight but think's it'd be kind of cool and funny to be gay or Bi?

That'd be me LMAO

anyway, I live in south florida where things are def alot different when it comes to acceptance of LGBT people. very liberal.

:( for those in Bible-Belt or regressive areas
Being morally bi? Is that what you mean?

I meant brainwashing as in things such as
1.)Sexual education not mentioning homosexuality, or just throwing it out there one time so they don't get complaints.
2.)The word "Gay" being considered an insult.
3.)People treating gays like minority.
In sexual education they do talk about Gay relationships. The increase has been since 2007.

I HATE it that people use "gay" as an insult. whenever any of my friends uses it I reprimand them. and all of them are gay-friendly.

I have some gay friends who I've caught using the word like a bad thing LOL
Yeah, we had this disscussion about 5 times now. But yup, this happens.

I mean to say more things, but for now I have to go to church.
 

Queen

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Judging from past experiences of this topic and others, I seem to be a bit less sensitive to these sorts of subjects than other people. Homophobia doesn't bother me. I've had a former acquaintance of mine chew me out for liking guys, and I just blew him off, told him to get over it, and stop being so butthurt 'bout it.

But with that aside, yes I think you should tolerate homophobic beliefs and opinions (which ultimately means tolerating the person with that logic). In doing so, you already prove you have a higher mentality and understanding, rather than being hateful and ignorant towards the, well, hateful and ignorant. You really have to remember that the idea of homosexuality for most people who don't actually indulge in such a lifestyle tends to be stereotypical visions, which ultimately is just an abstract miscommunication. If you can enlighten them about it then sure, go ahead, but at least tolerate it. So long as they're not going around committing hate crimes over it, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Hate breeds hate. I don't see the point in it, better to just leave it alone.
To say the least, I wish I had your poise. I frequently cannot maintain a sense of calm when I am attacked. Of course, occasionally I feel as though my life is at stake during these encounters. I doubt either one of us is a person easily swayed. I maintain that homphobia, sexism, racism, so on and so forth ought not to be tolerated. In tolerating them we passively encourage them to grow. I don't find this to be useful. Once again, correct me if I have misunderstood something or presumed too much. Anyway, it seems we shall have to agree to disagree.
 

Timbers

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I maintain that homphobia, sexism, racism, so on and so forth ought not to be tolerated. In tolerating them we passively encourage them to grow.
Coming from both sides of this spectrum, I can assure you that elitist behavior is fueled by retaliation of those they deem unworthy or unfit. The attacking "group" enjoys engaging with the people that try ever-so-hard to prove them wrong. If you just tolerate it and be like "ok" then there's nothing keeping that behavior going. If you tell them their attitude and opinions are unacceptable and you're going to have a whole boatload of arguing to the point of letting things get out of control.
 

lumberheartwood

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Coming from both sides of this spectrum, I can assure you that elitist behavior is fueled by retaliation of those they deem unworthy or unfit. The attacking "group" enjoys engaging with the people that try ever-so-hard to prove them wrong. If you just tolerate it and be like "ok" then there's nothing keeping that behavior going. If you tell them their attitude and opinions are unacceptable and you're going to have a whole boatload of arguing to the point of letting things get out of control.
Over the time of my absence from this site, I've been to many places and seen many things. My position stands that I want to increase awareness, tolerance, and also trying to maintain that we're (the GLBTQ community) like anyone else and we are purely human. Nothing more, yet nothing less. O, going back to a few past pages I read, queer can either be condescending, or it could be used by someone who considers themself "genderqueer," ala androgony.

I do say that ignoring other's attacks is one way to get your life moving. Some can be passive-aggressive, using sarcasm as their weapon. When one puts you down, you can say "I love you too." Usually that rattles them and lets them see a "pacifist" side of our community, as well as fan the flames out. Others make it a big deal because they want to let others know we aren't going to take their harassment, so more power to them. Unfortunately, I agree with Timber in that, saying these bigots are wrong in how they think will add a rain of gasoline on a wildfire. However, if they continue to keep dispersing their "insight" as correct, well then we have a major problem, for they've influenced others while we did nothing but stayed quiet. I say do whatever makes you feel empowered. You can act nonchalant when you meet such douchebags, or you can make it a big deal and hope for the best that your side manages to win the battle. It's a waging war we got dealing with civil equality. I'm hoping to do whatever I can to gather our forces and allies, and I hope you guys and gals and those in between do something somehow to let others know we exist, either as civilians who don't want drama or being part of the activism for our rights. Increasing the knowledge that we're not shadows in society is my goal that I hope to accomplish by the time I make my deathbed.
 

Queen

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Timbers, I'm not sure I follow. So, are you referencing a sort of continuation of a relationship of victimhood whereby the victim can constantly feel a sense of entitlement thereby granting an illusory seat of privilege? If so, then I can agree to that. Sometimes, it's too easy to be a victim. It's much harder to merely be a person hurt and move on from that.

As for the rest, I think we merely advocate different methods unto the same end. I hope we are successful.
 

Timbers

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Over the time of my absence from this site, I've been to many places and seen many things. My position stands that I want to increase awareness, tolerance, and also trying to maintain that we're (the GLBTQ community) like anyone else and we are purely human. Nothing more, yet nothing less. O, going back to a few past pages I read, queer can either be condescending, or it could be used by someone who considers themself "genderqueer," ala androgony.

I do say that ignoring other's attacks is one way to get your life moving. Some can be passive-aggressive, using sarcasm as their weapon. When one puts you down, you can say "I love you too." Usually that rattles them and lets them see a "pacifist" side of our community, as well as fan the flames out. Others make it a big deal because they want to let others know we aren't going to take their harassment, so more power to them. Unfortunately, I agree with Timber in that, saying these bigots are wrong in how they think will add a rain of gasoline on a wildfire. However, if they continue to keep dispersing their "insight" as correct, well then we have a major problem, for they've influenced others while we did nothing but stayed quiet. I say do whatever makes you feel empowered. You can act nonchalant when you meet such douchebags, or you can make it a big deal and hope for the best that your side manages to win the battle. It's a waging war we got dealing with civil equality. I'm hoping to do whatever I can to gather our forces and allies, and I hope you guys and gals and those in between do something somehow to let others know we exist, either as civilians who don't want drama or being part of the activism for our rights. Increasing the knowledge that we're not shadows in society is my goal that I hope to accomplish by the time I make my deathbed.
I think u should spread awareness and tolerance without become offended over opposing views. Its hard to explain, you need a good mix and balance of reasoning, understand, and just knowing how to not get work up. You can enligten someone while still humoring them and playing there game. If you're trying to conflict with every little thing they say, your not going to find a common ground and in the end u become an eas target for them to harrass.

I like to argue and I know hw to argue, and I think I'm good at what I do. You have to know how to pick your battles. What realy needs to be addresed and what just harmless fodder that you can use to your advantage to help soften the rocky terrain between the two of you (or in this case possibly many) if they're throwing f*ggot jokes at you, it's pretty **** harmless. Use it, laugh with them and maybe crack a lighthearted joke over it. Getting offended over such simple trashtalking makes you such an easy thing to prey on

I don't think we should just leave "hate" be, but u should be tolerant of and be understanding. People dont change overnight, and just going of on a person or group and calling it unacceptable behavior and hating the hate, it does nothing but distance us from that happyhappyjoyjoy idea of equality and acceptance
Timbers, I'm not sure I follow. So, are you referencing a sort of continuation of a relationship of victimhood whereby the victim can constantly feel a sense of entitlement thereby granting an illusory seat of privilege? If so, then I can agree to that. Sometimes, it's too easy to be a victim. It's much harder to merely be a person hurt and move on from that.

As for the rest, I think we merely advocate different methods unto the same end. I hope we are successful.
I'm kind of buzzed right now so maybe this is harder than it shoul be, but I'm having a really hard time understanding anything you said x_X. Hopefully what i said to the first person might reflect a bit on what i your post was referring to.

but yea success and all that!
 

Veril

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tl;dr

except...

"If you just tolerate it and be like "ok" then there's nothing keeping that behavior going."

Are you f***ing kidding me. That's the biggest load of s***, omg. When I was younger, I can say beyond a doubt that pacifism was not a viable strategy. I utilized it for years with no success until highschool, when I figured out how to effectively emotionally and verbally (on rare occasions physically) assault these people. It wasn't by telling them how wrong they were, it was by attacking them personally.

This discussion makes homophobia seem so clean, intellectual, quantifiable. It isn't. A purely passive response isn't going to work, nor is an obnoxious preachy verbal response. People need to respect you if you want to avoid that crap. People respect force more than anything else.
 

Smooth Criminal

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Yes, and conflict with people won't compound squat. Right?

Congratulations, Veril. You're on the road to becoming the people you hate.

Smooth Criminal
 

Timbers

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tl;dr

except...

"If you just tolerate it and be like "ok" then there's nothing keeping that behavior going."

Are you f***ing kidding me. That's the biggest load of s***, omg. When I was younger, I can say beyond a doubt that pacifism was not a viable strategy. I utilized it for years with no success until highschool, when I figured out how to effectively emotionally and verbally (on rare occasions physically) assault these people. It wasn't by telling them how wrong they were, it was by attacking them personally.

This discussion makes homophobia seem so clean, intellectual, quantifiable. It isn't. A purely passive response isn't going to work, nor is an obnoxious preachy verbal response. People need to respect you if you want to avoid that crap. People respect force more than anything else.
Lol.

When I said "ok" I meant, take what they say with a grain of salt or perhaps give them a sarcastic "indirect" response. It wasn't to say to just ignore it. Pretending it doesn't exist does nothing. Engaging with them every chance you get does do something, but it's not the result you want. I seriously doubt you beat a kid so bad that you scared the homophobia out of him.


For some reason there's this general misconception floating around that homophobics are gun-toting rednecks that burned crosses in the 80s and express their discrimination by hanging people in their basement. Homophobia is just fear, and fear breeds hate. Are you trying to tell me that because they misunderstand something that their being as a whole is tainted and any redeeming quality they have to be purged? I didn't say homophobia should be accepted, only tolerated, because homophobia doesn't make a person, just like homosexuality doesn't make a person.

Few things wrong with "forcing" them to see it your way. One, "opening" their eyes doesn't really work when you're too busy being rash and fighting them like a dog over a piece of meat. Two, becoming offended and choosing attrition in a scenario where "there's more of them than there are of you (hypothetically speaking of course) solves nothing when ultimately the majority is against you. Even if you're as "totally bad*ss" as you make yourself out to be and **** b*tches up who go against you, the aftermath still results in the majority sympathizing with homophobia (that's right, fear of homosexuals. Funny how that plays out) over the guy who floored some dude 'cuz he said somethin' he didn't like. Three, they're the one putting you on the defensive. If you do nothing, no real loss for them. If you go bat**** insane on them, you just gave them a ****-ton of material to work with. If not towards you, then towards other homosexuals. I don't know what hating a specific group of people who hate a specific group of people (lol redundant) will do besides creating an unnecessary cluster**** of useless banter. Like, I don't know. I honestly can safely say I don't care what people think of me, especially not people I had no emotional attachment to to begin with.

Find a middleground. Extremes only complicate ****.

EDIT: Also, so I can help trying to see it your way, can I have an example. Give me one, where you had someone giving you **** for being gay and you flipped out on them and forced them to "see it your way." I've never had or seen anyone respect someone out of fear, especially when the best thing you can really sling at them about the defense of homosexuality is pretty small to begin with.
 

Queen

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Timbers, I think, having continued reading your views, that we advocate the same thing, but we fail somewhat in conveying it clearly to one another. At first glance, I was thinking that you were advocating something like ignoring the problem in hopes that it goes away or disappears through non-engagement. However, I generally felt like there was somewhat more in your posts, so I wasn't quite sure what you were saying fully. So, I latched onto what I could in hopes that I would come to understand more, and, at this point, I think I do.

I feel like you were coming from a similar position towards me. I apologize for miscommunication. I don't advocate violence or explosive behavior, but I can understand it. To be attacked and denigrated and denied humanity is a profoundly disturbing experience (to put it lightly); it touches something base within some of us that necessitates screaming and an extreme affirmation of the fact that we are human. In a word, it's the animal within us that strives to maintain our humanity. However, you can go one step further and maintain a sense of self without initiating conflict. I feel this is what you're about.

I am like you in that I don't care about the thoughts of persons to whom I have no attachment. Persons to whom I am attached, though, I do care about their thoughts and attitudes. I have made them a part of my life and I should like to keep it that way, and so, I maintain communication and sincerity with them. Me and my friends help each other to grow and realize the significance of the life we are leading.

As per your demand for an example, I can't give a one where I flipped out and altered someone's consciousness. But, I have altered the consciousnesses of my friends because I reached out with respect and a desire to help. They responded and they are coming to see things in a different way.

It ends up being so difficult to counterattack blatant rage and hatred or fear and disgust because I don't know how to reach these people. They refuse to connect with me because they are afraid or angry, in so doing they are denying my humanity, and their own. It reminds me of "The Power and the Glory" where a character says, "Hatred is a failure of imagination." You must always remember that people have faces and that these faces have flaws and virtues, just like your own.

Well, there's a ramble and a half. Um...enjoy?
 

Veril

Frame Savant
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,062
Location
Kent Lakes, New York
Lol.

When I said "ok" I meant, take what they say with a grain of salt or perhaps give them a sarcastic "indirect" response. It wasn't to say to just ignore it. Pretending it doesn't exist does nothing. Engaging with them every chance you get does do something, but it's not the result you want. I seriously doubt you beat a kid so bad that you scared the homophobia out of him.


For some reason there's this general misconception floating around that homophobics are gun-toting rednecks that burned crosses in the 80s and express their discrimination by hanging people in their basement. Homophobia is just fear, and fear breeds hate. Are you trying to tell me that because they misunderstand something that their being as a whole is tainted and any redeeming quality they have to be purged? I didn't say homophobia should be accepted, only tolerated, because homophobia doesn't make a person, just like homosexuality doesn't make a person.
:laugh:

Clearly we've had a very different experience with homophobia. I didn't want to scare the homophobia out of anyone, I just wanted them to leave me alone. I wasn't even openly gay or bi or whatever and I got attacked. Not like, with words... So I can't have the same, "homophobes are people too". I was a kid, and I got harassed and beat up, and those responsible got away with everything because a priest stood up for them.

You make excuses for them, most likely because you've never truly had your a** kicked. I'm not a bad-a** in any way shape or form (Jigglypuff, come on here), I mostly just reacted by being socially visible and popular enough that nobody gave me trouble. The time before that basically will never allow me to view homophobes as anything but the enemy.

I agree that adults should refrain from using violence whenever possible. This whole thing about the humanity of homophobes though is f***ing ridiculous and naive. Now that homophobia is less prevalent and acceptable, people get this impression that hateful people aren't violent, won't seek to do you harm in any way. I'm sorry, we haven't gotten to that point yet. Again, people respect force, in whatever form it takes.

For the record, I don't hate "hate". I think hate is a valuable emotion. I hate cruelty to animals, heroin, homophobes and any number of other things. Hate makes people take action. Your condescension and periodic insults towards me aren't conducive to winning me over, neither is your pacifistic garbage. Self defense is justified, and violence DOES solve problems, anyone who says otherwise is a fool or a liar (or a hippy lol). This is simply a fact, violence causes problems, and violence also solves them.

I'm not saying go out and pick fights. But defend yourself, to the degree justified by their aggression.

Yes, and conflict with people won't compound squat. Right?

Congratulations, Veril. You're on the road to becoming the people you hate.
STFU!

I don't give a s*** about their psychosocial development. They can all get horrible diseases and die alone for all I care. I just wanted them to LEAVE ME ALONE!
 

Mazaloth

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
759
tl;dr

except...

"If you just tolerate it and be like "ok" then there's nothing keeping that behavior going."

Are you f***ing kidding me. That's the biggest load of s***, omg. When I was younger, I can say beyond a doubt that pacifism was not a viable strategy. I utilized it for years with no success until highschool, when I figured out how to effectively emotionally and verbally (on rare occasions physically) assault these people. It wasn't by telling them how wrong they were, it was by attacking them personally.

This discussion makes homophobia seem so clean, intellectual, quantifiable. It isn't. A purely passive response isn't going to work, nor is an obnoxious preachy verbal response. People need to respect you if you want to avoid that crap. People respect force more than anything else.
Of course being passive doesn't work, but just reacting by froce is also incredibly stupid. Disscussion about homophobia is clean and intellectual, it is exactly the extremists that totally blow it out of proportion.

When you said, "A purely passive response isn't going to work, nor is an obnoxious preachy verbal response. People need to respect you if you want to avoid that crap.". You were entirely correct with the whole approach towards respect. But you left out the none preachy verbal approach. Which actually tends to work.


You make excuses for them, most likely because you've never truly had your a** kicked. I'm not a bad-a** in any way shape or form (Jigglypuff, come on here), I mostly just reacted by being socially visible and popular enough that nobody gave me trouble. The time before that basically will never allow me to view homophobes as anything but the enemy.

I agree that adults should refrain from using violence whenever possible. This whole thing about the humanity of homophobes though is f***ing ridiculous and naive. Now that homophobia is less prevalent and acceptable, people get this impression that hateful people aren't violent, won't seek to do you harm in any way. I'm sorry, we haven't gotten to that point yet. Again, people respect force, in whatever form it takes.

STFU!

I don't give a s*** about their psychosocial development. They can all get horrible diseases and die alone for all I care. I just wanted them to LEAVE ME ALONE!
We seem to like looking towards the extremes here, aren't we?
The truth is that, homophobia is just as the same as any other time, we preach tolerance and acceptance, yet truly it is very little times that we show it.

You last comment I would like to bash, with your permission only.
 

Takumaru

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 14, 2007
Messages
1,208
Location
Muncie, IN
Veril, you need to chill. We've all had our fair share of **** to deal with. I know I had to deal with several fights and a million other things before a) I even thought I was gay and b) before I came out just because people thought I was gay. The more worked up you get over things like this the worse it gets. So just calm down.
 

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
11,321
Location
Tri-state area
:laugh:

Clearly we've had a very different experience with homophobia. I didn't want to scare the homophobia out of anyone, I just wanted them to leave me alone. I wasn't even openly gay or bi or whatever and I got attacked. Not like, with words... So I can't have the same, "homophobes are people too". I was a kid, and I got harassed and beat up, and those responsible got away with everything because a priest stood up for them.
Ok, that's f***-ed up, that priest needs to be reported to the diocese, because that's so far opposed to church policy that it's unforgivable.

You make excuses for them, most likely because you've never truly had your a** kicked. I'm not a bad-a** in any way shape or form (Jigglypuff, come on here), I mostly just reacted by being socially visible and popular enough that nobody gave me trouble. The time before that basically will never allow me to view homophobes as anything but the enemy.
The enemy... congrats, you've dehumanized them, and once you've done that, anything is acceptable.

Once you can dehumanize a person based on an arbitrary factor, then nobody is safe. In fact, that whole dehumanization (be it as "the enemy", "an object", "worthless", or any number of other such attributions) is behind EVERY SINGLE BIAS IN HUMAN SOCIETY TODAY.


Dehumanization is a cancer to be rooted out wherever it is found, it's an easy trap to fall into but it really does make you no better then your persecutors.


They hurt you, you want to get back at them, but the deepest wounds that they gave you were psychological, the were so vile that they gave you the belief that it was moral to believe what you do about people, that's it right to dehumanize them.


I'm sorry, everybody is a person, dehumanizing them in the long term only prevents resolution.

I agree that adults should refrain from using violence whenever possible. This whole thing about the humanity of homophobes though is f***ing ridiculous and naive. Now that homophobia is less prevalent and acceptable, people get this impression that hateful people aren't violent, won't seek to do you harm in any way. I'm sorry, we haven't gotten to that point yet. Again, people respect force, in whatever form it takes.
No, force is often an encouragement to seek bigger guns.

It depends entirely on the situation.

For the record, I don't hate "hate". I think hate is a valuable emotion. I hate cruelty to animals, heroin, homophobes and any number of other things. Hate makes people take action. Your condescension and periodic insults towards me aren't conducive to winning me over, neither is your pacifistic garbage. Self defense is justified, and violence DOES solve problems, anyone who says otherwise is a fool or a liar (or a hippy lol). This is simply a fact, violence causes problems, and violence also solves them.
Hatred makes you act blindly and irrationally, it makes you unwilling to accept useful compromises and makes destroying what you hate worth destroying yourself and everything you hold dear.

No, hatred gives what you hate control over you, it is irredeemable as an emotion, replace it with a better one, otherwise it can (and often does) destroy you.





Don't get me wrong, I'm not universally opposed to violence (years and years of martial arts experience), but I'm not going to go picking a fight. You must choose how to use it carefully (almost always pure self-defense). Hatred is especially good at impairing this rule of thumb.

In other words hatred + violence usually gets you killed or makes the situation worse.



STFU!

I don't give a s*** about their psychosocial development. They can all get horrible diseases and die alone for all I care. I just wanted them to LEAVE ME ALONE!
He wasn't talking about them, he was talking about you.


By hating them you bait the conflict to excelate which ultimately puts you in a far worse situation.


Furthermore, you impair your OWN psychological development.



Homophobes aren't worth destroying yourself over.
 

Veril

Frame Savant
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,062
Location
Kent Lakes, New York
wait... ambrodeus is intelligent... let me read this thang here

Sorry about the double post. It was unintentional. "waits for infraction"
 
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