Let's talk about L-Canceling.

[Jockmaster]

In my opinion, technical and mental skill should go in hand in hand, not two separate entities, and I think we can agree on that.

If anything, we need a streamline on certain things to reduce the difficult for pulling things off consistently while providing new things to tackle at the same time.

Well...how would that be possible? By nature tech skill and mental skill are two different things. One is essentially a fallible muscle memory and physical feel one develops with practice, while the other is a more abstract understanding for the game and its intricacies on a theoretical level. While in some areas they intersect, by their very nature they cannot meld in to one another.

Also, I agree that streamlining tech skill and making it more...efficient...I guess would be cool, I don't see how anything could be -better- than l-canceling

 

[Big-Cat]

Well...how would that be possible? By nature tech skill and mental skill are two different things. One is essentially a fallible muscle memory and physical feel one develops with practice, while the other is a more abstract understanding for the game and its intricacies on a theoretical level. While in some areas they intersect, by their very nature they cannot meld in to one another.

Also, I agree that streamlining tech skill and making it more...efficient...I guess would be cool, I don't see how anything could be -better- than l-canceling

Maybe I worded that wrong. There are plenty of situations where the use of technical skill and strategical skill work together. From what I've read on Guilty Gear's Bridget, when he knockdowns the opponent, he has to make a decision very quickly as to where he will place his yoyo to counter the opponent's wakeup. The time window for this is so brief that you have to think fast to do the yoyo placing safely. Technical skill comes into play because you have to condition yourself to place the yoyo in different spots, not just one. Mental skill is required to keep up with the pace of the game and to quickly make your decisions right then and there.

Better than L Canceling? What is it that you're looking for? Are you willing to look outside of Melee for possibilities?

 

[Biz_R_0]

I know where this is going.

 

[Yodery]

There are games outside of Smash Bros? The ****?

 

[Big-Cat]

There are games outside of Smash Bros? The ****?

Yeah, and it turns out that all the characters in Smash Bros. had games before being put into the game. Talk about weird.

 

[Yodery]

What kind of That's So Raven bull**** is that? O_o

 

[Big-Cat]

What kind of That's So Raven bull**** is that? O_o

No one's really sure, but scientists believe that this had led to a stable time loop. They're currently investigating and finding out that the Marvel characters in something called Marvel vs. Capcom were originally from comic books that predate as far back as 70 years ago so the plot thickens.

 

[Deleted member]

Deal, remove L-Canceling, and decrease the landing lag, instead bring back Crouch Canceling.

 

[KrazyKnux]

Since there are no situations where you would not want to L-cancel

This isn't true, ftr.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Smash64 Way i say or melee

It needs to have it though.

 

[Biz_R_0]

This isn't true, ftr.

It's beginning to look a lot like what happened
Threeeeeeeeeeeee pages ago.
We've already had this argument
We do not need to have it again
So how about we leave this thread aloooooooooooone!

It's beginning to look a lot like what happened
Eaaaaaaaaarlier in the thread.
There's a reason why this thread went cold
It's because the discussion got old
Now let's keeeeeeeep iiiiiiiiiiiit deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeead!

 

[Orange Fox]

L-cancling should be added. When I was in the Melee scene it was one thing I could never perfect. That took players to the next level

 

[KrazyKnux]

It's beginning to look a lot like what happened
Threeeeeeeeeeeee pages ago.
We've already had this argument
We do not need to have it again
So how about we leave this thread aloooooooooooone!

It's beginning to look a lot like what happened
Eaaaaaaaaarlier in the thread.
There's a reason why this thread went cold
It's because the discussion got old
Now let's keeeeeeeep iiiiiiiiiiiit deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeead!

Really? Someone mentioned Peach fairing through a shield and missing the l-cancel being beneficial in certain circumstances? It was so obscure that I decided it's not worth it to wade through 18 posts (40 ppp) to find a mention of it. I'm actually kinda curious as to if someone did mention that, because it was years ago that I saw a post about it and I wouldn't mind referencing it again. Or did someone mention another example?

For the time I'll just assume you wanted to make a mockery of this thread lol.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Really? Someone mentioned Peach fairing through a shield and missing the l-cancel being beneficial in certain circumstances?

Yes, actually.

 

[Vkrm]

No reason to bump this thread. The advantage of the manual l cancel is already obvious to anyone who was here when this thread was relevant.

 

[KrazyKnux]

Ah interesting, I was trying to find that old post a while ago and didn't know where to search, so this might be useful lol

Bump imo

 

[The Star King]

I used to be in favor of L-canceling

then there was an argument about in on the 64 boards (twice) and the anti-canceling side's arguments were much better and made much more sense

and reading this thread

it's the same thing once again

yeah

 

[DrinkingFood]

Argument* since they only have one thing going for them, which is the whole "arbitrary skill barrier" thing.

 

[Master Knight DH]

I used to be in favor of L-canceling

then there was an argument about in on the 64 boards (twice) and the anti-canceling side's arguments were much better and made much more sense

and reading this thread

it's the same thing once again

yeah

You know, I would like to see those threads, because I wouldn't doubt if the arguments are every bit as idiotic as you say they are. Feel free to message me, but please use IMing or YouTube messaging to do so, because I have no plans to stay logged on. I'm just here to show this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNH3LFcn-7I

You can thank people like Jockmaster for prodding me into making this rant by things like calling ME "the cancer of Smash" without thinking it possibly ironic.

 

[Life]

^*comment submitted for approval!*

LOL

Seriously guys he's gotten kicked from basically every community I've seen him in (granted that's two), I feel bad.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

More like he probably gets himself laughed out of them, but y'know.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Life]

Same diff..

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Skill barriers are fine

However, skill barriers should:

1. Add something to the game for people that can perform, rather than taking something away from people that can't
2. Have situational but powerful application, rather than ubiquitous and expected application.

L-cancelling in it's melee form is manual trip cancelling, more or less.

This is not just my opinion, this is game design 101, fighting game theory 101, and so forth.

If a tech barrier is building a player up once it's broken but not keeping a player down when it's not, then it's doing its job. Wave Dashing: good. L-cancelling: bad. Wave dashing adds an option, even a very powerful option, but if you can't do it, you aren't going to be punished not being able to whenever you land on the ground, like it's really that simple.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Wave Dashing still keeps you down because if you don't do it (with some exceptions, like Jigglypuff) and the other person does, you will lose. You really can't play high level Melee without doing it unless you pick someone with an awful Wavedash like Jiggly. I don't mean to be all "Melee vs. Brawl" but I think Brawl's tech barriers fit you description better. With glide tossing, you don't need to know how to do it in order to win, unless you're using a select few characters like Diddy and Zamus. DACUS, same thing.

Also, I really don't agree with #1 because anything that can't be done at a basic level will fit that description, which would pretty much be any tech barrier (if you're making something hard to do on purpose, you're taking that away from people who can't do it). IMO advanced techniques should be about practical application, not technical execution (like SHFFLing, minus the L of course).

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Wavedashing is on the line, but it's still better than l-cancelling. If you don't wave dash, you're at a disadvantage, but you aren't outright making yourself more punishable every time to land with an aerial. It's a very different disadvantage.

 

[Biz_R_0]

I agree that L-Cancelling is much worse in that respect, but I don't think Wavedashing is that great of an example.

 

[Vkrm]

Haven't we gone over this enough? If the timing for an cancel was mad easy to the point where it's was a choice between having end lag or not, remove dat ****. However it's not like that, lcanceling has variable timing and that forces you to be more calculating since you need to adjust the timing based on what you hit.

 

[El Duderino]

Wave Dashing still keeps you down because if you don't do it (with some exceptions, like Jigglypuff) and the other person does, you will lose. You really can't play high level Melee without doing it unless you pick someone with an awful Wavedash like Jiggly.

Wavedashing is like what combos were to SFII, a known exploit that the developers didn't foresee players using effectively, but in practice expanded the gameplay for most if not all the characters. They are barriers of entry for high level play, but that does not fundamentally make the concept of either bad. It's a bit hypocritical to judge wavedashing on how well you can do without it, given the whole fighting genre has largely evolved from a less than accessible exploit.

Wavedashing is a good gameplay mechanic that similarly could use an intentionally crafted input. L-canceling on the other hand is a nonsensical mechanic, but it adds a level of challenge that for many brings enjoyment. It should go, though the properties should stay with the devs inventing a better way of keeping players equally engaged.

 

[Biz_R_0]

I would argue that combos were the worst thing to happen to fighters, but that would be another ****storm.

Anyway, I disagree about barriers of entry not being bad. If something can be tooled to be easier to do, then it really has no reason to be difficult aside from just taking a big ol' piss all over the people who aren't already there.

And I don't think combos are the best example, I think a better example would be inputs. IMO Smash Bros. has it right, you just point in a direction and press a button and you do your special. With traditional fighters, I can see how this wouldn't work, as there are already six buttons (although they really do not need separate buttons for kicks, they could just replace those with "special" buttons and do the Smash method). For this, I could see how inputs would be necessary, but they could just do only quarter circle and dragon punch motions. There's no real need to do almost a full circle to execute a command grab, or to hold down/back for the entire match if you're using a charger.

That's what I mean, it doesn't need to be difficult and all it does it shoo away people who don't want to invest a ton of time in the training room instead of actually practicing against real players. If they can make Wavedashing simple to do, I'd be all for it...actually it wouldn't be that hard, just make L the "quick dash" button and let you use it on the ground as well as in the air.

 

[Vkrm]

I think it's as simple as it could be. Its just hard to time.

 

[El Duderino]

Anyway, I disagree about barriers of entry not being bad.

Never said large barriers of entry were a good thing. My point was barriers are poor criteria to evaluate the merits of a technique with when there is room to lower or even remove them.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I would argue that combos were the worst thing to happen to fighters, but that would be another ****storm.

That would be a very hard case to make concerning that combos shaped fighters as they are today. By what basis could you possibly adhere to back up that fighters would be better received and more impacting on the video game industry were they to evolve without combos? How could you even claim that the genre would even exist without them? You don't know what would have happened to the genre because there's no way to possibly know that.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Alright then. I agree, but if that's all it is then I don't think it's good.

 

[Biz_R_0]

That would be a very hard case to make concerning that combos shaped fighters as they are today. By what basis could you possibly adhere to back up that fighters would be better received and more impacting on the video game industry were they to evolve without combos? How could you even claim that the genre would even exist without them? You don't know what would have happened to the genre because there's no way to possibly know that.

It wouldn't be based around getting one hit and instantly winning at higher levels, I know that.

 

[El Duderino]

It wouldn't be based around getting one hit and instantly winning at higher levels, I know that.

There's nothing inherently wrong with chaining moves together. It's only a problem when like you mentioned, it gets out of hand and turns into something that disregards the juggled players input for extended periods of time.

Aside from a few situational imbalances and infinities, Smash in general is pretty good about it and benefits from the potential combos that exist.

 

[Biz_R_0]

It was out of hand from the start, Street Fighter II had such long hitstun and damaging/stunning moves that you could easily combo into death. If they did it right, then maybe almost every fighter wouldn't be Marvel light, but they didn't and the genre's been ****ed since conception.

However, I'm not entirely sure they knew about that and may have purposely made it that way anyway. If there were no combos that wouldn't be a problem.

inb4 ****storm

 

[Big-Cat]

Outside of Marvel, I've really only seen a person required to land two or three combos before a KO in most games. Of course, you've got characters that are more about wittling the opponent down with pressure or other tactics, but this is generally the case. Otherwise, you'll mostly be going for pokes and stuff. Sometimes, you go full matches without a single damaging combo.

 

[El Duderino]

It was out of hand from the start, Street Fighter II had such long hitstun and damaging/stunning moves that you could easily combo into death. If they did it right, then maybe almost every fighter wouldn't be Marvel light, but they didn't and the genre's been ****ed since conception.

Of course they didn't get it right with SFII, combos were an accident, but still showed the merit. I'm not a big fan of MvC either, but it's not like every fighting game went that route. Smash didn't, neither did Virtua Fighter or Soul Calibur, yet they still have combos.

inb4 "how dare you disagree with me"

Lets not let this elevate to one of those discussions, please don't antagonize it.

 

[Biz_R_0]

@Kuma really? Because pretty much every 2D fighter that I've seen aside from Melee, Brawl, SF4, and Skull Girls maybe have just been "get one or two combos and you win". Name a few and I'll find some combo videos for you.

@Duderino 3D fighters, for some reason, usually don't feel the need to be based entirely around tech skill. Although, you seem to have missed my sentence in the middle about how this definitely wouldn't be a problem if there weren't combos.

And the "inb4" was to preemptively call people out on their bull**** so it doesn't become one of those discussions. Usually works.

edit: oh, look, a ton of people viewing the thread again. I guess this is gonna turn into another thread solely dedicated to disagreeing with me.

 

[Big-Cat]

Combo videos are meant to be flashy, not practical. Most of the time, they have impractical execution requirements (i.e. several just frame links), have very specific conditions for activating them, high meter costs (i.e. most KOF and Marvel combo vids from what I've seen), or the damage scaling making the combo worthless when a shorter more practical one would get the job done.

Like I said, the games focus more on pokes and relatively short combos along with mixups and pressure to get people to open up.