Let's take a new approach to this MK topic...

[The Halloween Captain]

Is this a thread for individual matchups, or do general tactics have a place here?

 

[•Col•]

Top tiers and even most of high tier's with enough work can find a way around this IMO. It is MUCH harder for mid tiers, although some I feel have the potential to do. (Ie. Santi's TL keeps me from being as aggressive as usual when I play him) Although for the majority of the bottom tier will not be able to do much damage but HOPEFULLY something can work.

Lol, one character makes more than half of the entire Brawl cast unplayable in the competitive scene. Nice. xP


Anyway, I dunno about this... If we try to find a counter or an even matchup, odds are the MK mainers are just going to come back to disprove it. This has already happened with quite a few characters... xD More recently, Mr. G&W...

I guess it can't hurt to try though... I just feel like as we struggle to find a way for a character to counter MK, at the same time, others are going to find an easy way to shut down the character's game plan vs. MK... D:

 

[salaboB]

Yes. Diddy can play tight with his bananas, but on top of that, even if you DO get control of them, Diddy can regain control quite easily because his dash attack is simply ****. Your are saying what people have always been saying about Diddy, except its never actually happened in real life for strong Diddy players because they know how to keep control of the banana/s. You may get a banana here or there in a match, but ultimately Diddy will have control probably 80% of the time, if not more. MK grabbing bananas from the air is his best bet, but LeeHarris doesn't even believe MK needs to go to the air, so we it wasn't addressed in that context. Per air grabs, chances are once the MK grabs one or two bananas the Diddy will catch on and time the throws better or simply dribble away and wait for MK to land (or will fire the peanut gun then throw the banana). Diddy has a crap load of options.

You make it sound so easy...

Let's see it happen in practice.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

A) He has developed his Bowser specifically for the MK matchup. He uses him only on MK's and has beaten most of WA's MK's, including Eggz.

Now that's interesting. He beats Eggz' MK? Wait, haven't you just said that Bowser doesn't win IRL? Did I miss something? Obviously you just contradicet yourself. And that's a good thing in this case

B) Bladewise is top of WA PR, and placed 17th at AXIS, losing only to DSF and Edrees.

That's nice but:

1.) It's only one tournament
2.) He got 17th, which doesn't disprove my point

I'm not talking about a random here. He's a good player who's developed a very strong secondary. Would you call DSF's Snake laughable because he mains MK? Mew2King's Dedede because he mains MK?

Who said anything about laughable? I just said, that DSF is a way better player than him, something I hope you agree with. But he won against Eggz. Does that mean nothing? Losing to DSF doesn't even remotely prove anything concerned with the match-up. It's a well established fact, that Wolf vs Snake = 50:50 but GERM still lost to DSF, because DSF IS THE BETTER PLAYER.

I mean it's funny that you say it doesn't work because he loses to a better player. But winning against Eggz apparently means nothing...

My point is that there has yet to be a Bowser player beating any of the notable MK's, and good players have tried.

What? You just said that dude beat Eggz, didn't you? Is he not a notable MK player? This is funny because the only good Bowser player you mentioned so far in fact has succesfully beaten notable MK players. That doesn't make quite sense to me. And apparently he only lost once to a MK and that was - what a coincidence - the 3rd best player in the U.S.

I don't see it as a potential counter.

Counter? I never said that.

It might be a matchup that is expanded upon, but I don't think it'll ever be better than even

I don't ask for more.

and I doubt it'll ever even get to that point

It could have something to do with the fact, that you know nothing about Bowser or this match-up. (Correct me if I'm wrong but all you ever talk about is your Peach, so I don't assume you played either of them)

(MK destroys Bowser offstage

No, he doesn't

and has so many more options).

Name any

 

[Dojo]

Is this a thread for individual matchups, or do general tactics have a place here?

General's will work here as well.
Anything and everything that closes gaps between MK and the rest of the cast.

Lol, one character makes more than half of the entire Brawl cast unplayable in the competitive scene. Nice. xP

Does Snake not do this?
What about G&W.
They **** mid-low hard as well.

Probably not as hard. But that's what we're trying to fix.

 

[PhantomX]

Well, there's always the possibility that MK gets between Diddy and the Bananas, there's not much Diddy can do to get him out of the way (assuming neither player falls for jukes/dodges, etc). MK should be able to put sufficient pressure on Diddy after that to not let him set his banana game up, even moreso if there are platforms.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

General's will work here as well.
Anything and everything that closes gaps between MK and the rest of the cast.

We should get Terios here then.

 

[ph00tbag]

Unfortunately I have no idea what that means. Please explain.

Planking is the practice of ledge-camping and running away to such an extent that your opponent literally can't get a hit in on you. It's highly effective for Metaknight against characters like Falco, Link and Olimar (unless MK is one of those characters whom Olimar can grab off of the ledge), who are very weak off of the stage. It's named after Plank, who first really used it to great success.

If you want to keep your friends, you shouldn't use this, but if you have no friends and want none, and only care about winning the tournament, then feel free to use it.

 

[Mmac]

Strat.

It seems alot similar to Yoshi's strategy, but I think that Yoshi will have an easier time due to being not as massive as he is, and will be able to grab him much easier.

Can Bowser CG up hill's though, like Yoshi's Island Melee and Green Hill Zone? That would be a huge plus as he will have heavy counterpicks, granted if they're not banned

It's highly effective for Metaknight against characters like Falco, Link and Olimar (unless MK is one of those characters whom Olimar can grab off of the ledge)

Olimar CAN Grab him off the ledge

 

[Volacide]

Planking is the practice of ledge-camping and running away to such an extent that your opponent literally can't get a hit in on you. It's highly effective for Metaknight against characters like Falco, Link and Olimar (unless MK is one of those characters whom Olimar can grab off of the ledge), who are very weak off of the stage. It's named after Plank, who first really used it to great success.

If you want to keep your friends, you shouldn't use this, but if you have no friends and want none, and only care about winning the tournament, then feel free to use it.

Ah, I see.

Thanks for clarifying. Sounds like the opposite of my play style. Probably won't be using that anytime soon.

 

[GMo]

Unfortunately I have no idea what that means. Please explain.

Let me preface with this:

As a Falco player (a decent one, I'm not great, but I know a thing or two) I can confidently say that SK92 is one of the if not the best Falco around at the moment. In my opinion he is.

Anyway here is a video of Plank doing his thing against SK92 (if I'm not mistaken this is the video that sort of brought this into the spotlight). Essentially ledge camping.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phRs10GVwvg

This is between SK92 and Plank at a semi recent tourny. I think it is to be noted that most of the community has decided that this is not a technique that will be banned, so...

Learn to either A.) Do it well or B.) Deal with it.

I'm not sure there is a particularly good way of countering this with most characters, and it certainly hurts Falco's chances here.

There is more discussion on this (far, far more indepth) on this board somewhere. I'd go find it, but I am kinda lazy.


E: F;B

 

[•Col•]

Does Snake not do this?
What about G&W.
They **** mid-low hard as well.

Probably not as hard. But that's what we're trying to fix.

I'd say G&W does around the same difficulty for every character... xD I didn't know much about G&W matchups, so I went to check their matchup guide. It's not fully completed, but it seems he actually does better against most of the High Tier characters than the Middle tier... xD

And yeah, Snake does do pretty well against the mid-low tier as well, but like you said, it's not as hard... Actually not even NEARLY as bad... xD Snake doesn't have as many high pressure moves. Plus, the ones he do have aren't as "low risk" as Metaknight's. D:

But yeah, I understand we're trying to find someone that can do good against MK. The thing is, I feel like MK has such a wide range of options, that even if we find something that may do well against a MK, someone else will just find a simple way to counteract it... xD

Anyway, just my 2 cents... You can try to find a way to counter MK, but I'm just gonna stay out of it for now, unless I accidentally stumbled across something that I think would work... Otherwise, yeah, I'm not going to... >.>

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It seems alot similar to Yoshi's strategy, but I think that Yoshi will have an easier time due to being not as massive as he is, and will be able to grab him much easier.

But Bowsers options OoS are sooooooo much better than Yoshis! Bowser can do 20% with one Koopa Claw! He'S harder to finish too.

Idk about the stages. I will try

 

[AlphaZealot]

You make it sound so easy...

Let's see it happen in practice.

All the comments about the ground do happen in practice, at least for me, and I'm slowly refining how to deal with MK when he is in the air.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLzmL_8mn9I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWarcJGodMs&feature=related

This is me against Inui, and Inui has practice against the best Diddy iin the country and has been to about 10X the tournaments I've been to (so, 2 Brawl tournaments versus about 20).

What is theory is that any character can consistently control bananas against Diddy (as opposed to maybe getting control a few times in a match out of probably 20-30 bananas being pulled). I don't think you can even find a match wth a competent Diddy where the opponent uses the bananas against Diddy more than Diddy uses them against the opponent.

 

[Volacide]

Let me preface with this:

As a Falco player (a decent one, I'm not great, but I know a thing or two) I can confidently say that SK92 is one of the if not the best Falco around at the moment. In my opinion he is.

Anyway here is a video of Plank doing his thing against SK92 (if I'm not mistaken this is the video that sort of brought this into the spotlight). Essentially ledge camping.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phRs10GVwvg

This is between SK92 and Plank at a semi recent tourny. I think it is to be noted that most of the community has decided that this is not a technique that will be banned, so...

Learn to either A.) Do it well or B.) Deal with it.

I'm not sure there is a particularly good way of countering this with most characters, and it certainly hurts Falco's chances here.

There is more discussion on this (far, far more indepth) on this board somewhere. I'd go find it, but I am kinda lazy.


E: F;B

Ah, now I understand what it is.

That's really underhanded in my opinion. I play a very agressive MK so you won't catch me planking anytime soon.

 

[PhantomX]

All the comments about the ground do happen in practice, at least for me, and I'm slowly refining how to deal with MK when he is in the air.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLzmL_8mn9I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWarcJGodMs&feature=related

This is me against Inui, and Inui has practice against the best Diddy iin the country and has been to about 10X the tournaments I've been to (so, 2 Brawl tournaments versus about 20).

What is theory is that any character can consistently control bananas against Diddy (as opposed to maybe getting control a few times in a match out of probably 20-30 bananas being pulled). I don't think you can even find a match wth a competent Diddy where the opponent uses the bananas against Diddy more than Diddy uses them against the opponent.

I agree in general. But I'm of the opinion that Wario is one of the few that can use them against Diddy about the same as Diddy uses them against him, if only for the fact that he is pretty much the only character that can limit the game to only one banana the entire time (and he eats dash attacks :D) and he is hugely aerial.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Wario does limit bananas (though I wouldn't say its in Wario's favor banana wise).

But we are talking about MK.

 

[Mmac]

But Bowsers options OoS are sooooooo much better than Yoshis! Bowser can do 20% with one Koopa Claw! He'S harder to finish too.

Idk about the stages. I will try

He can Combo 40+ If he has the room to do so. Plus it doesn't really matter if he can kill him 25% sooner, he will still have a much easier time grabbing him and gathering up damage

 

[salaboB]

What is theory is that any character can consistently control bananas against Diddy (as opposed to maybe getting control a few times in a match out of probably 20-30 bananas being pulled). I don't think you can even find a match wth a competent Diddy where the opponent uses the bananas against Diddy more than Diddy uses them against the opponent.

Who said it had to be consistently against Diddy? If the MK just moves the bananas to where they aren't in his way, he's just removed one of Diddy's best restricting tools.

 

[PhantomX]

Wario does limit bananas (though I wouldn't say its in Wario's favor banana wise).

But we are talking about MK.

Yeah, posting when half asleep and in the middle of class is generally not good for following trains of thought, haha.

 

[Le_THieN]

Diddy's Fair/Uairs are no joke. But the class of Diddy's anti-air game is his Utilt, which beats out MK's Dair. MK only has ONE approach option against Diddy, and it is beat by the Utilt. Any horizontal approaches are negated and ***** by bananas, which leaves simply the one horizontal approach of trying to spam Dairs until something hits.

I like to at least fancy that I'm pretty well-vetted when it comes to a Diddy main's perspective on the Meta Knight match-up (I've played many of the best Meta Knight mains in Texas several times; half the tournaments I allowed to slip away in the Grand Finals have been to Meta Knight users; and I live with a Meta Knight main). That's why it's with great regret, Alpha, that I really can't bring myself to agree with virtually any of your statements.

• Firstly, there's some clarification required in your claim that Diddy's U-tilt beats out MK's D-air. Are you saying that if both moves come out simultaneously that Diddy's U-tilt would both out-range and out-prioritize MK's D-air? - Because last time I checked, this was not true. I can't even think of any moves that outright beat MK's D-air besides something ridiculously obvious like Zero Suit Samus' Plasma Wire. I can see you putting yourself into a situation where you are actively baiting MK's D-air and then preemptively striking with Diddy's U-tilt, but that's still a far cry from actually out-prioritizing MK's D-air.
  
• MK's D-air is not the only approach option MK has against Diddy.
  • The sheer speed behind Meta Knight's dash attack makes it probably the best option that Meta Knight has against Diddy period - the d*mn move closes distance at such a blistering pace that it literally does not matter which way you glide-toss on the ground. Even if you re-space yourself with a reverse glide-toss, a Meta Knight who properly anticipates the glide-toss will still catch it, due to how deceivingly (and forgivingly) large the grab-boxes in Brawl are. The only way to reliably beat MK's dash attack is to severely delay your glide-toss, and even at that you run the risk of outright eating the attack.
  • Short-hopped and multiple-jumped F-airs are also much more effective against a pinned, cornered and grounded Diddy than you think. Only perfectly-timed and -angled peanuts can deter this, otherwise MK will just F-air through them.

Despite this though, I do fully agree with this:

This is a match up where the Diddy Kong players will simply continue to improve, because they have far more tools and versatility than MK.

My performance against Meta Knight has improved exponentially in the last couple of months. I don't know if it will ever get truly to the point where Diddy will become a counter to Meta Knight (I have a hard time not rolling my eyes whenever I hear people claim that Diddy even goes even with MK), but I'm perfectly content with out-playing and out-thinking my opponents with my chosen main.

 

[brinboy789]

MK is like a slightly more powerful Yun from SFIII:3S. No weakness in any matchup, but MK has way too many low risk-high reward attacks that are abused.

Also a Peach main, fighting MK is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Winnable, but ridiculously unfair in terms of what you have to do to take him out compared to what he has to do to kill you.

wrong. they both have NO bad matchups, but yun only had 1 arguably neutral. MK has yoshi, arguably snake and a few others

 

[AlphaZealot]

LeThein: I think you are focusing on the wrong details. First, is the concept of Diddy on the ground against MK on the ground, and I think even you would agree Diddy holds the advantage in this arena, even with that dash attack (that is LAGGY afterwards, don't forget). Second, as I've mentioned, I need work on dealing with MK from the air, but really the match does boil down to MK in the air versus Diddy on the ground, and for me the U-tilt has totally changed that match up. I need to do tests to confirm either way in terms of U-tilt versus D-air and what happens when both come out at the same time. However, its not so much about them coming out at the same time as the U-tilt being incredibly quick (of similar quickness as the D-air and with similar, though slightly more, cool down as the D-air). Think of your MK matches and when the MK approaches from the air, does the MK not simply jump > air attack > jump air attack, at a height just above Diddy? So, if you are Diddy and you see this pattern, wouldn't you be able to dribble beneath MK and hit him with a U-tilt before MK recovers from the previous D-air/air attack? Obviously there are mix ups involved, which is why I mentioned peanuts/Diddy's Fair. When I played Forward, our MK vs Diddy matches eventually devolved into an air versus ground game (lasting like 5-6 minutes and usually always being last hit/last stock, as he would beat me in the air and I would beat him on the ground, and we each just damaged each other when the opportunities presented themselves, leaving a pretty much even match, the final results was 3-3 out of 6 games), and at first I was mostly helpless, but once I started spamming/timing/spacing the U-tilt I was knocking him out of his approach pattern probably 70% of the time. Just give it a try.

Essentially:
Diddy (ground) versus MK (ground): advantage Diddy
Diddy (ground) versus MK (air): advantage MK
Diddy (air) versus MK (air): advantage MK

Then, at least for me, there is a TON of improvement that can be made from the ground versus MK in the air, both in picking stages and evolving my play style (for starters, I always forget to count how many jumps MK has used and usually fail when trying to punish him on landing, which when I succeed (ie I counted right) almost always leads to free hits, but when I fail almost always leads to getting hit (I usually fail because I suck at keeping track of MK's jumps while focusing on other things).

Who said it had to be consistently against Diddy? If the MK just moves the bananas to where they aren't in his way, he's just removed one of Diddy's best restricting tools.

For a few seconds, and I wonder what Diddy will be doing with the othere banana as MK lets his guard down...hmmm. I wonder if you've ever actually played against a competent Diddy. Chances are slim considering there are probably less than 15-20 in the entire country.

EDIT: for an example on the room for improvement, about 30 seconds ago I found out that Diddy's Up-B beats the shuttle loop, in that if the shuttle loop hits you while charging the Up-B then the barrels will discharge and automatically hit MK (rocket barrels have insane KO power + damage to boot). YAY for more tools in the match up.

 

[salaboB]

For a few seconds, and I wonder what Diddy will be doing with the othere banana as MK lets his guard down...hmmm. I wonder if you've ever actually played against a competent Diddy. Chances are slim considering there are probably less than 15-20 in the entire country.

I have not, which is why I'm asking.

I'm uncertain how much guard letting down it takes to just toss a banana (You can do it from the air if you practice, I'm sure) so it lands over on the other edge of the stage away from wherever Diddy's trying to set up. Is Diddy really going to be able to barrel over and punish MK for a quick item throw the other direction?

I just don't see how an MK who also practices z-grabbing the bananas and then just gets them out of the way whenever he has an opening is suffering terribly, and a lot of the advantages that make a difference that you've listed for Diddy rely on him having his bananas messing up the MK.

Basically, we're wanting to find ways for characters to approach or break MK's approaches. I'm trying to help make sure we don't forget that MK players also need to be testing every new approach for ways to break it in return.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Is Diddy really going to be able to barrel over and punish MK for a quick item throw the other direction?

Yes, because chances are Diddy is already set up waiting to hit MK with the other banana (or a dash attack) as he is catching/dealing with the first one. This is fundamental Diddy play. Glide tossing closes space fast, start at one end of FD using a glide toss Diddy can get a banana across the next 3/4ths of the stage, and FD is a far larger stage than say, SV/BF/Yoshi.

 

[Mortimer]

Yes, because chances are Diddy is already set up waiting to hit MK with the other banana (or a dash attack) as he is catching/dealing with the first one. This is fundamental Diddy play.

What's stopping the MK from gaining control over a single banana? At that point, Diddy has one and MK has one, and the banana advantage is nullified until the bananas reset.

 

[AlphaZealot]

What's stopping the MK from gaining control over a single banana? At that point, Diddy has one and MK has one, and the banana advantage is nullified until the bananas reset.

If he gets control of one (and throws it away from both characters as you say) he will be hit by the second (probably 3 out of 4 times assuming Diddy has the set up with the second banana ready to be tossed), and very soon will lose control of the one banana he did one (seeing as his position is displaced and Diddy's dash attack picks things up with near zero lag).

Either way, what your saying (items can be dealt with easily-pretty much the argument) is largely theory and has been stated since the beginning of the game, and never has a top Diddy used his own bananas less effectively than the opponent.

Just go back a page and view the matches of Inui versus me. He is MK and probably is the MK with the most experience against top Diddy Kongs (experience against the best). Count how many bananas he gets control over, I would bet its not higher than 25%ish, if that (actually, I would be sad if it was that high, then I was just playing really dumb). More importantly, if he did get control, how long will it take before control is regained by Diddy or Diddy is able to pull out another banana.

 

[Mortimer]

If he gets control of one (and throws it away from both characters as you say) he will be hit by the second (probably 3 out of 4 times assuming Diddy has the set up with the second banana ready to be tossed), and very soon will lose control of the one banana he did one (seeing as his position is displaced and Diddy's dash attack picks things up with near zero lag).

Either way, what your saying (items can be dealt with easily-pretty much the argument) is largely theory and has been stated since the beginning of the game, and never has a top Diddy used his own bananas less effectively than the opponent.

Just go back a page and view the matches of Inui versus me. He is MK and probably is the MK with the most experience against top Diddy Kongs (experience against the best). Count how many bananas he gets control over, I would bet its not higher than 25%ish, if that (actually, I would be sad if it was that high, then I was just playing really dumb). More importantly, if he did get control, how long will it take before control is regained by Diddy or Diddy is able to pull out another banana.

It just sounds like you say that the Diddy knows how to utilize bananas whereas the Meta Knight does not. It's not that the MK is incapable of it, he just has no experience at it.

The matches of Inui versus you seem to demonstrate this. It looks as though Inui is making poor choices in regards to the bananas. I'm not experienced at breaking down matches, so somebody better than me may want to take a stab at it to correct me.

 

[DanGR]

Lemme play the devil's advocate.

I thought I remember someone saying that in Japan, Diddy rose near the top of the tier list, but fell when people began to punish the Diddys for having more than one banana out at a time. Then they were forced to use just one banana at a time. Is that because they just aren't good enough at keeping them away from their opponents yet? And if this is true, will the same thing happen over here?

Just a thought.

 

[AlphaZealot]

If holding an item is an advantage, then why would Diddy of equal skill as MK ever take more harm than good? And Inui probably has the most experience of dealing with nanas for any MK in the country.

I've never heard that story about Japan.

 

[salaboB]

If holding an item is an advantage, then why would Diddy of equal skill as MK ever take more harm than good?

I think the point is more if MK is holding the banana, Diddy can't get another until something gets rid of the one MK has.

 

[XienZo]

I think the point is more if MK is holding the banana, Diddy can't get another until something gets rid of the one MK has.

Why can't Diddy get another one?

 

[Mortimer]

Why can't Diddy get another one?

If he gets another one, it's one banana (MK) vs one banana (Diddy). Why does this give Diddy an advantage?

 

[Vyse]

If MK is holding/guarding one, then Diddy is effectively limited to having only 1 banana in his posession. So what salaboB is saying is that Diddy has to remove possession of that banana from MK before Diddy can start using two again.


Er...basically anyway.

 

[Mortimer]

If MK is holding/guarding one, then Diddy is effectively limited to having only 1 banana in his posession. So what salaboB is saying is that Diddy has to remove possession of that banana from MK before Diddy can start using two again.


Er...basically anyway.

I'd assume that this Japanese only using one banana example is because the Japanese Diddy's got punished when their opponent got control over a banana. So they only use one, and they only use it when they're certain their opponent can't take it away.

Hence my asking why an opponent getting control over a banana isn't a problem.

 

[Vyse]

Well, it is a problem.

However, this is an issue that we've done to death. One of the inherent advantages of being a Diddy Kong player is that our entire playstyles incorporate item micromanagement skills.

Basically, as Diddy Kong players, we have to be able to say that we are more proficient at handling bananas, to the point where the opponent can't take control of them often, and without a reasonable degree of difficulty.

Isai said 'Don't Get Hit'

I'm saying 'Don't lose your banana'.

 

[Mortimer]

I can accept that. The problem I see is that it's dependent upon the Diddy being more proficient with micromanaging bananas than the MK. While this is easier for Diddy to do because every one of his matches revolves around it, if Diddy becomes enough of a problem then the MK users WILL learn that control, and Diddy will no longer have that advantage.

So, unless Diddy has some inherent, unbeatable advantage when it comes to banana control, an aggressive banana approach will be countered once MK learns the matchup.

 

[LuigiKing]

wrong. they both have NO bad matchups, but yun only had 1 arguably neutral. MK has yoshi, arguably snake and a few others

You never fail to make a fool out of yourself do you? Joke post???

 

[AlphaZealot]

I can accept that. The problem I see is that it's dependent upon the Diddy being more proficient with micromanaging bananas than the MK. While this is easier for Diddy to do because every one of his matches revolves around it, if Diddy becomes enough of a problem then the MK users WILL learn that control, and Diddy will no longer have that advantage.

The difference is that Diddy gets bananas for free, MK has to earn them.

 

[Mortimer]

The difference is that Diddy gets bananas for free, MK has to earn them.

And once MK has earned them, Diddy magically regains control.