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Let's be the first to ban Meta Knight.

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-Ran

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You know, I've been thinking. We Southerns always have had issues with a global authority. [Civil war Much?] Let's be the first in the US to do what everyone else is too scared to do. Let's make The South a 'Dry' region when it comes to Meta Knight. Other regions will then look to us to see what it does to the meta game. This is a serious discussion.

At work at the moment, so I'm going to attempt to squeeze everything I can into this post in the shortest amount of time. I want to make sure everyone realizes that I'm not going to be talking about your average day Meta knight that wins at the local game tournament. Most of you have never played a good Meta knight, much less a great one. I'm talking about the top elite Meta Knight play, which is beginning to spread and disperse down the chain. Want an example? Watch Dojo.

At the highest level of play, assuming the right choice is picked at all times for a character, Meta Knight is going to win. Why? With his approaches he can auto-cancel into near lagless Smashes. You cannot Shield Grab a smart Meta Knight. The seemingly normal reactions to counter attacks do not work against Meta knight. Power Shielding? Ha, by the time you get your input frame Meta Knight already has a second attack buffered.

Meta Knight is a character of reflexes. As long as the player is pushing him to this extent [which is what we are now seeing in tournaments] the only answer to him becomes another character of reflex because conventional means of dealing with the character do not work. Punishing a great Meta knight is a delusion that is left for sweet dreams at night. The intuitive reactions that are trained to work against everyone else in the game do not, and will not work on a Professional level Meta knight. Gone are the days when Meta Knights didn't realize how to auto-cancel their aerials directly into a Smash, D-Tilt, or even a grab. The issue is the vast number of inputs of high priority that Meta Knight is able to do during the course of a match/exchange. No other character comes close, not even honorable mention. The window of opportunity to even -stop- one of Meta knights approaches is slim, at best since most moves that can even -tie- against him, have considerable lag. The pressure that Meta Knights are applying to their opponents is unparalleled, and the entire cast is left with no means to cope.

Playing against Meta knight is an exercise in futility. The best have learned an offstage game that destroys everything. Due to Meta knights lack of cool down, they are able to punish any recovery and juggle off the stage ruthlessly with little to no risk. There is no character that can match this, retaliate to this, or survive this.

Meta Knight is going to see a ban, if not the scene is going to become a matter of who can stomach to play
Meta Knight dittos every match. Attendance will suffer for tournaments, and in the end, we'll move on to other games. The goal of this community is to foster the development of a competitive scene for Brawl. The only answer to this situation is clear.

PS: Most match up threads are out of date now vs Meta Knight. I wouldn't quote them or even mention them.



"The Slippery Slope as fallacy"

The heart of the slippery slope fallacy lies in abusing the intuitively appreciable transitivity of implication, claiming that A lead to B, B leads to C, C leads to D and so on, until one finally claims that A leads to Z. While this is formally valid when the premises are taken as a given, each of those contingencies needs to be factually established before the relevant conclusion can be drawn. Slippery slopes occur when this is not done -- an argument that supports the relevant premises is not fallacious and thus isn't a slippery slope in technical definition of the term.

Often proponents of a "slippery slope" contention propose a long series of intermediate events as the mechanism of connection leading from A to B. The "camel's nose" provides one example of this: once a camel has managed to place its nose within a tent, the rest of the camel will inevitably follow. In this sense the slippery slope resembles the genetic fallacy, but in reverse.

As an example of how an appealing slippery slope argument can be unsound, suppose that whenever a tree falls down, it has a 95% chance of knocking over another tree. We might conclude that soon a great many trees would fall, but this is not the case. There is a 5% chance that no more trees will fall, a 4.75% chance that exactly one more tree will fall (and thus a 9.75% chance of 1 or less additional trees falling), and so on. There is a 92.3% chance that 50 or fewer additional trees will fall. The expected value of trees that will fall is 20. In the absence of some momentum factor that makes later trees more likely to fall than earlier ones, this "domino effect" approaches zero probability.

This form of argument often provides evaluative judgments on social change: once an exception is made to some rule, nothing will hold back further, more egregious exceptions to that rule.

Note that these arguments may indeed have validity, but they require some independent justification of the connection between their terms: otherwise the argument (as a logical tool) remains fallacious.
TL;DR version: Banning MK doesn't in any way lead to the conclusion that we'll all be forced to main Captain Falcon as the only still-legit character in half a year. Cool and manly as though it would be. Just wanted to get this out of the way so there can actually be some interesting discussion in this thread instead of it derailing to a ton of slippery slopes and the inevitable refutation of said arguments, on and on until we're all so old the only way we'll be able to continue smashing is through the aid of nurses pressing the buttons for us while we gag and choke on old-people pills in pretty colours and dote upon our grandchildren.
What's the worst that could happen if we opt to unban Meta knight if this fails? We lose face. At the very least, we'll show the Smash World that we have the balls to take chances to better the Game. I think they'll remember that the most.
 

Eight 52

Smash Journeyman
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Who knows what would happen, maybe the brawl scene would die since everyone loves metaknight lol.
 

Master Raven

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If you're talking about those recent vids of Dojo vs Santi, Dojo himself said Santi sandbagged that set because they were going to split.
 

-Ran

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Dojo three stocked pretty much everyone at the tournament according to Hylian, who even stated he himself was three stocked. I guess everyone was sandbagging, huh?
 

Equi

Smash Ace
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Messages
767
I concur and always will. MK is god beyond belief. When facing him with Wolf, I have to camp with lasers, hit him, run away, camp, one hit, etc. which makes for very long, tedious matches. But then again Brawl in general is looking less by the day for me, slowly everyone is losing interest for the game anyway. The transition to Melee is already in effect.
 

Master Raven

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Dojo three stocked pretty much everyone at the tournament according to Hylian, who even stated he himself was three stocked. I guess everyone was sandbagging, huh?
I never said everyone sandbagged, I was just assuming you were referring to only those recent vids of his set vs Santi. Also, Hylian himself used MK against Dojo and got 3-stocked, and only did slightly better when he used GW.

I'm not against a ban, but it's too early. I'd rather give it at least by next year before we can consider a ban.
 

-Ran

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I'm starting to think the staunch supporters of the 'Wait and See' attitude just want to watch Brawl fail so Melee will reign once again. =p
 

nevershootme

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I'm starting to think the staunch supporters of the 'Wait and See' attitude just want to watch Brawl fail so Melee will reign once again. =p
Really... not all organizers are gonna put the ban hammer on him. granted if one organizer does it, and they may lose face and be hated just cuz of doing 1 stupid thing.. it's like politics as we speak, someone screws up on what they say and they'll lose face with the people
 

GDX

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if anything, snake should be banned. at least MK is light and has logical hotboxes >.>

but im not sure if you should ban MK as of yet. the game hasnt even been out that long when you look at the big picture
 

Eight 52

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lol I say someone hosts a tourney banning Broken slow hitbox and broken fast hit box. The winner will probably be D3.
 

Saltix

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I'm so **** tired of these topics. MK is just another character in the game. I know what he can do in high-level play, but everyone who wants him banned is just looking for a handicap. Get yourself good enough to where you can beat MK. Banning a character won't give you a better chance of winning.

You main/can beat MK? Kudos to you.

Can't beat that one MK player? Tough luck.

Get the hell over it. MK won't be banned. at least anytime soon :|
 

Fenrir VII

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There are a large number of character springing up that have a favorable match against MK... the problem up until now is that like....nobody plays them...

To talk about banning a beatable character is ridiculous... and everybody who does so...in this thread and otherwise, needs to man up and stop whining about something that isn't all that godly... this stuff gets annoying. Stop whining.
 

Gingerr

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Snake and Dedede are both broken in their own respective ways, too, except, *****es like OP only wanna ban Meta Knight because 1) They either don't know how to fight one or 2) They would just rather cry on the boards about the character instead of learn how to fight him.

Meta Knight is just as beatable as Snake or Dedede is, in fact, even MORE SO. He's light as hell. Did you know that a landed fair from Ganondorf on a Meta Knight SLIGHTLY on the right side of Battlefield, fully DI'd, will kill Meta Knight off the side at about 54%. Honestly, I REALLY don't want to hear it.

Yesterday myself and my best friend were discussing things like this, and I had decided that I would merely answer cries like this with a simple "Then play *whatever character"*, but it's not that simple, and I really want to make you feel stupid.

Although I didn't read your entire wall of text that you posted originally, I noticed that someone brought up that whoevers Meta Knight that's in question (which undoubtably isn't M2k) 3 stocked the entire tournament. Am I to believe that this happened in Texas? If I am correct in this assumption, then I continue, and if not, then feel free to disregard this, as you eventually will with the entirety of my post because I'm not a *****;

It seems to me that if this was the case, then Texas is really bad. You can go ahead and say "Oh well he plays Meta Knight like Florida has never seen before!", but lets face it, that's not the least bit true. We had M2k down here for an entire week, and those of us in SFL played him at TWO tournaments, not just at FAST1. Not everyone got 3 stocked. In fact, our more notable players (Leh, Seibrik) didn't. Under no circumstances are you going to tell me that whoever this kid is that's beating Hylian (pfft) is better than M2k. Learn to fight a character.

The Brawl community really needs to start to come to a fast realization, and I really mean FAST. This goes out to all of you, not just the cry babies like OP and Dock :p You really only have about 2 options at this point on Brawl. These are your options:

1) You ban characters. But you can't just ban Meta Knight. You ban Meta Knight and Dedede will be so ungodly over powered, but the chain continues! If you ban Dedede too, then Snake is ungodly OP and you have to ban him too, and before you know it, all the top tiers are gone and everyones playing Falco.

2) You realize that this game is terrible, ESPECIALLY competitively, and you take everything with a grain of salt and just play the game it's meant to be played. All characters, tripping, everything.

Of you don't like Meta Knight and think he should be banned, then I highly suggest that you think twice about surrounding yourself by competitive Brawl. Tier whoring is the way it is. The game is just like 3S. Just like when you go to a smash tournament there's no way you WON'T see Meta Knight/Dedede/Snake, it's like in 3S, there's no way you won't see Chun/Yun/Ken(?). When characters are so substantially better than the rest of the cast, those who like characters other than the top 3, but still want to play competitive, have a decision to make:

1) Play the character you want and, unless you're Azen, get your *** handed to you.
2) Give in and play a top tier character.

I wish it wasn't, and you can try to argue is isn't (which won't matter because I'll never see any replied anyways) so bread and butter, but honestly, the quicker you all begin to see it and accept it, the smoother the Brawl competitive scene is going to go.

On the bright side, you could always just play a good fighting game that isn't Brawl. You DO have options!
 

Saltix

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You two pretty much summed this up.
Close this topic, quit whining, and go practice.
 

GDX

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i fall into the category of playing who i like and getting my *** handed to me

but the handings are getting less and less bad

all of the "ban MK" johns just sounds like one collective QQ to me

or they could all play diddy. Ninjalink beat m2k with diddy kong...TC1 (awesome cali diddy) barely lost to DSF's metaknight at Axis, and Nanerz (another cali diddy) beats Sean (one of cali's top MKs)
 

RockCrock

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Play Project: M! Florida
i fall into the category of playing who i like and getting my *** handed to me

but the handings are getting less and less bad

all of the "ban MK" johns just sounds like one collective QQ to me

or they could all play diddy. Ninjalink beat m2k with diddy kong...TC1 (awesome cali diddy) barely lost to DSF's metaknight at Axis, and Nanerz (another cali diddy) beats Sean (one of cali's top MKs)
Conclusion: Ban Diddy and MK.
 

Pritch

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I'm starting to think the staunch supporters of the 'Wait and See' attitude just want to watch Brawl fail so Melee will reign once again. =p
Let's wait and see.:laugh:

EDIT: And I agree with pretty much everything ginger said, also. Yes, ran or whoever else, you can tell me (and correctly) that I don't play brawl, but that doesn't mean that I can't recognize a well-reasoned arguement.
 

-Ran

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This isn't a 'cry me a river' situation. I guess it's my fault for thinking that the South player base would be proactive. Meta Knight will be eventually banned, I have no doubt about it. The slippery slope of bans after which that many have dreamed of, will not occur.
 

dguy6789

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I am just going to say that anyone who thinks MK should be banned has no idea how competitive play works. That is all.
 

-Ran

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Can't, never got into it. I don't have five years of my life to play catch up. If Brawl fails, it'll be back to FPSes for me. Only way for Brawl not to fail, is for Meta knight to be banned if the current meta game continues.
 

Umby

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I'm just your problem~
Can't, never got into it. I don't have five years of my life to play catch up. If Brawl fails, it'll be back to FPSes for me. Only way for Brawl not to fail, is for Meta knight to be banned if the current meta game continues.
Sounds like a personal problem to me. Melee is too good, regardless of how good/bad you are at it.
 
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