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Le THieN's Match-Up Newsflash: Marth vs. Diddy is Even

Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
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Hanson, play me in melee for a few hours and you'll never want to roll in brawl again.


:p.


Ok that's not true at all, but rolling can be a hard habit to break. It's really intuitive to roll when you panic or lose sight of what you were trying to do. Your first instinct in these situations is to become invincible, and you get out of danger for the longest period of time by rolling. You might even want to do this without knowing it, because it's a motion that gives you more time to relax and think then any other move you could do. That's why it's so hard to break.

I personally haven't really had to break this habit because it never formed for me. The first thing I was taught when getting into melee was that rolling sucked and everyone punished the **** out of you for doing it in melee. Brawls rolling is a lot harder to punish, so people feel inclined to use it more. Personally I used to main Samus/Fox in melee and since Samus's roll sucked so much and fox never really needed to roll I pretty much eliminated it from my game. In brawl my first main was Samus, who still has a horrible roll, and GW who also has a horrible roll. You play Diddy/Lucario/Kirby who all have pretty good rolls :/.

I find the best way to break any habit in this game though is to put meaning into what you are doing. Rolling isn't nessisarily bad, just easily punishable when used predictably(like everything else). When you roll, do it for a reason, for example rolling towards a marth that hit you with the first hit of DB, or rolling away from shield pressure. These are meaningful. When you start rolling to avoid projectiles, nades, etc you can lose sight of what your opponent is actually doing. They can space themselves and their projectile, while you can only roll one direction and are venurable at the end. If you find yourself rolling twice in a row, stop and think to yourself what you could of done instead of that second roll. Your opponent probably isn't in grab range, so why not just sit in your shield? Jumping out of your shield even can be a better reaction then rolling, because you have options while you are jumping. You can AD, attack, move...while rolling you are going to one place and cannot hurt your opponent in the process.

I don't really know where I'm going with this honestly, I just felt the need to keep typing for some reason LOL. I'm sure you already know all of this, but I've already typed it so whatever :).
 
D

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any time you want to roll, just sidestep twice. same effect, but totally ****s with the opponent's timing :)
 

Le_THieN

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I don't really know where I'm going with this honestly, I just felt the need to keep typing for some reason LOL. I'm sure you already know all of this, but I've already typed it so whatever :).
Actually, this is the best advice I've heard in a long while. I find it painful to watch some of my videos because of these bad habits; yeah, I occasionally place and perform well against certain competition, but it's self-defeating when these little nervous tics get me into a jam, and suddenly I have 40% on me that wasn't there before. Either way, this has been much more helpful to me than "stop rolling." It helps to reiterate why it's bad and why it's punishable, and possible ways I can remedy this.

Being noted as a top player is nice, but I feel like it's misleading, as well. I've got the rolling tic almost as bad as the no-name n00b down the street.

Time to level up some more.
 

PhantomX

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Make sure your rolling habit doesn't do what mine did and degenerate into a spotdodging habit, b/c that gets punished just as much, lol.

I've lost more than my fair share of matches b/c I spotdodge when I could've done something more beneficial.
 

Le_THieN

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Make sure your rolling habit doesn't do what mine did and degenerate into a spotdodging habit, b/c that gets punished just as much, lol.

I've lost more than my fair share of matches b/c I spotdodge when I could've done something more beneficial.
Diddy's spot-dodge is average at best, although I find that I abuse it more than I should.

For those of you who watched my first set with Ally, and the first match of the second set:

You saw how badly I got ***** by Ally when he got in my face and jab-canceled and tilted the **** out of me, right? If I rolled, he would just read it and grab me or turn around and make me eat tilts; if I spot-dodged, I just ate more jabs; if I shielded, I would get grabbed; if I tried to clank or jab back, I would just eat more jabs. Hell, I even tried to smash-DI, and I was so aggressive about it, I even F-smashed backward in one match when I wasn't paying attention and died for it. What is a good deterrent strategy if Snake is giving you jab and tilt pressure, and you have no banana peels? I haven't quite figured out what to do yet besides properly smash-DIing this and running away. Ideas?
 

Hylian

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Diddy's spot-dodge is average at best, although I find that I abuse it more than I should.

For those of you who watched my first set with Ally, and the first match of the second set:

You saw how badly I got ***** by Ally when he got in my face and jab-canceled and tilted the **** out of me, right? If I rolled, he would just read it and grab me or turn around and make me eat tilts; if I spot-dodged, I just ate more jabs; if I shielded, I would get grabbed; if I tried to clank or jab back, I would just eat more jabs. Hell, I even tried to smash-DI, and I was so aggressive about it, I even F-smashed backward in one match when I wasn't paying attention and died for it. What is a good deterrent strategy if Snake is giving you jab and tilt pressure, and you have no banana peels? I haven't quite figured out what to do yet besides properly smash-DIing this and running away. Ideas?
Yeah, do a retreating full hopped fair, or run away. Don't stay there with snake. If he has you in a position where he is limiting your options then get away. Try and reset the positions to neutral so you can gain an advantage in stage positioning or momentum. If you feel running away isn't going to work, then grab him. This stops everything he's doing and allows you to get away, follow up, get nana's..whatever. If he's pressuring you on an edge, just hug it really quick. It's safer then immediatly trying to get past him.

When someone is pressuring you like that, they are trying to force a defensive reaction out of you such as rolling or dodging because it's easy to punish while they arn't being threatened. So just run away or grab them. Jumping can also work pretty well.
 

Fogo

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I usually try to grab after the first hit connects with my shield when using DDD, or jump out of the situation and fair him or run away with lucario lol

You just can't let him get that close to you with diddy. Maybe spotdodge and buffer Dtilt?

EDIT: Hylian you took the words right out of my mouth and said it better lol
 

Le_THieN

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When someone is pressuring you like that, they are trying to force a defensive reaction out of you such as rolling or dodging because it's easy to punish while they arn't being threatened. So just run away or grab them. Jumping can also work pretty well.
I noticed in my matches with Ally that he had a lot of trouble getting into close quarters range when I zoned him with projectiles and played keep-away for the most part. I'd have to say I performed the best against him during the first match of the second set, and it didn't really fall apart until the last stock, when he started that jab/tilt pressure. He just caught me at the wrong time, I guess.

I've noticed Ally is excellent at forcing a single mistake and then forcing you to make multiple additional mistakes stemming from that. From there, he just reads and punishes accordingly. Anyone can conceivably do this, but this is just downright fatal if this tool is in the hands of a Snake player.

Ally, however, doesn't seem to handle similar rush-down or pressure very well when the tables are turned against him however (i.e. his sets against M2K). But that's Jason for ya...

You just can't let him get that close to you with diddy
That's actually a good point too, as simple as it sounds. Why did I let him close in on me while I was unarmed? I didn't even tried to shield once.

FOGO MAGIC
 

ADHD

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Diddy's spot-dodge is average at best, although I find that I abuse it more than I should.

ARE YOU INSANE!?!??! I dodged both hits of marth's nair on a platform while spamming it, it's somewhere around falco or dedede's spotdodge. It almost always ends in a power shield if you spam it! Thien, fight him like you are fighting olimar or dedede. You get midranged, but make it hard for him to grab you, or ftilt you in this case. Just have good spacing around that ftilt range but keep it offensive, snake should only be ftilt'ing diddy if he fails at approaching and you can minimize that a ton.
 

Bellioes

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Against snakes, I really dont have a lot of experience so I cant really add anything to the discussion
But I can say that in the past its worked for me when I threw a banana just when snake threw his so they both explode then I run forward to z-grab the banana(Thas on the ground where the nade exploded). Its helped me approach snakes much better in general b/c I dont have to worry about his nades that he throws at me (Man do I hate them -_-)
 

Le_THieN

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ARE YOU INSANE!?!??! I dodged both hits of marth's nair on a platform while spamming it, it's somewhere around falco or dedede's spotdodge. It almost always ends in a power shield if you spam it! Thien, fight him like you are fighting olimar or dedede. You get midranged, but make it hard for him to grab you, or ftilt you in this case. Just have good spacing around that ftilt range but keep it offensive, snake should only be ftilt'ing diddy if he fails at approaching and you can minimize that a ton.
LOL, I really don't agree with this assessment at all; I don't do much frame data testing, but I'm pretty sure Diddy's spot-dodge is just average. I always feel like his sidestep has the least amount of invincibility frames, and if I'm forced to spot-dodge, I usually am unarmed (i.e. I have no banana peel). Diddy has absolutely no safe melee options out of a spot-dodge if you're forced into close quarters combat against characters like Falco, Marth, MK, D3, Ike, or Snake. All these characters that I see frequently at tournaments or Smash-fests have superior ground range, priority, or some fatal combination of the two. I'd rather be sitting in my shield armed with a banana peel, because I can at least do a retreating glide-toss to play keep-away.

Other than that, I'm down with your Snake advice and keeping him slightly beyond arm's length.
 

BoRn

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i cant comment on this at all because if i do im sure some one wil post that vid lol good luck guys
 

Coyn3Masta

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i just watched all of your ally vids, your diddy is fun to watch. you switched colors every match like me XD.
 

Esca

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THieN, for Snake, I try and spam bananas as much as possible. Also, Snake makes it very situational to dash attack, because he has the option of just pulling a grenade. I think the only advantage Diddy has in this match is being able to spike really good. So, the one of the FEW viable playstyle in this matchup goes:

1. Camp bananas.
2. Wait for him to make a mistake.
3. Get the Snake off the stage, with WHATEVER (more than likely a grab).
4. Capitalize on the punishment.
 

Irsic

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No offense taken. I mean, I was demolishing him for the first part of one of those matches without bananas.

I've played infinitely better Lucas mains in tournament since September (Phoenix Alpha, Pierre, Keef da Teef or whatever his name is), and unfortunately, the results were still the same. =) I think this is just a not very good match-up for Lucas.
First time getting back to this topic since reading this -

I main Diddy Kong as well, and I'm going to have to disagree with you. I don't think that Diddy is a bad match up, and it's pretty easy to catch banana's as Lucas. Phoenix Alpha is also the only name I've heard of up there^^, but I'm not around the scene too much myself because of how far away I am from everything (upper peninsula of michigan LAWL) Part of the sad reason this isn't such a hard match-up for Lucas though is because of how easy he is to KO. :( This match-up should not be nearly as easy (for Diddy) as it seems.
 

Le_THieN

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First time getting back to this topic since reading this -

I main Diddy Kong as well, and I'm going to have to disagree with you. I don't think that Diddy is a bad match up, and it's pretty easy to catch banana's as Lucas. Phoenix Alpha is also the only name I've heard of up there^^, but I'm not around the scene too much myself because of how far away I am from everything (upper peninsula of michigan LAWL) Part of the sad reason this isn't such a hard match-up for Lucas though is because of how easy he is to KO. :( This match-up should not be nearly as easy (for Diddy) as it seems.
Fair enough. The only thing I have to point out is that virtually everyone that Diddy Kong faces has a significantly easier time KOing him than vice versa; I have just always found a great deal more ease in zoning Lucas with banana play than other characters. Other than the people I have mentioned though, this is still a largely unexplored match-up in general (and I will concede probably not as close to a blowout as I implied), but I still feel this is largely in Diddy Kong's favor.
 

pastaboy

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Thien i learned alot from your matchs with ally. GDX's too. Why do people see rolling as some kind of noob mistake. Its a legit way of saving ur *** sometimes. And when fighting a snake where spot dodging and shielding both get u MASSIVE damage, rolling is your best option. And if your nanaless i think a good viable option is to space your self with fairs, i just remember watching a vid of advent lee spacing fairs on afro and it seemed to work quite nicely.

Also Snake has ridiculous options for ****ing up diddys recovery, fair and fast falled bair especially. we shuld start a video compilation thread called diddys vs ally, for lolz
 

Le_THieN

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Thien i learned alot from your matchs with ally. GDX's too. Why do people see rolling as some kind of noob mistake. Its a legit way of saving ur *** sometimes. And when fighting a snake where spot dodging and shielding both get u MASSIVE damage, rolling is your best option.
Well, I feel like a n00b, and I think it's just my specific applications of rolls lately that has sucked.

EDIT:
And if your nanaless i think a good viable option is to space your self with fairs, i just remember watching a vid of advent lee spacing fairs on afro and it seemed to work quite nicely.
Actually, I did this a few times, and F-airing out of shield to capitalize on Snake's tilt cool-down frames seems to be fairly effective.
 

Dark Ryu

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THieN I'm actually admiring how harsh your being on yourself... I guess the only way to improve/correct those habits is to be harsh on yourself. But yeah man, try to keep your cool during those times and just stop, relax, and think about whats going on in the match. Instead of going crazy with rolls/spotdodges. haha (easier said then done though, of course.)
 

Count

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I was in no way implying that thien is bad or anything like that, it just seems obvious to me that his biggest flaw is his sometimes excessive rolling. I'm the WORST when it comes to rolling too much, its hard to fix it has a way of making you feel safe even though it really makes you more vulnerable. Thien is 100x the player that I am I was just looking for a way to stop all of us rolling in general.
 

Le_THieN

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I was in no way implying that thien is bad or anything like that, it just seems obvious to me that his biggest flaw is his sometimes excessive rolling. I'm the WORST when it comes to rolling too much, its hard to fix it has a way of making you feel safe even though it really makes you more vulnerable. Thien is 100x the player that I am I was just looking for a way to stop all of us rolling in general.
You didn't hurt my feelings at all on any level with your observations. It's just that there's been a lot of extraneous side discussion about which of us comprise the echelon of "the best Diddy Kong mains in the country"; and after having the chance to see many of us in action in person or through videos, there is virtually not a single person I can look at and honestly say that this or that person is one of the best without a reservation or two. We've barely logged in a year with the game, and the meta-game (at least for me personally) is still evolving at a mercurial rate. I'm often shocked how much better or how differently I play after major events. After Clash of the Titans 4, I now see what I've conceptualized as the "correct" way to play Diddy Kong, but that the road to implementing these new elements after glide-tossing shackled me to the ground for almost 12 months will be long and difficult.

Speculation and waxing poetic on the nation's finest is all good and fun, but I can't help but gag a little bit every time I see threads or sub-threads pop up about "mastering Diddy" or what the list of the best players would look like since:

  • pretty much everyone has all sorts of glaring flaws to work on
  • no one really travels
  • we still haven't had a truly standardized national event
These are at least the things I would look at if I were considering anything of the sort, and as it stands, M2K and Ally are the only people on my list who fit these criteria for any character.

Bringing it back home, I bought a Dazzle DVD Recorder yesterday and managed to get several matches recorded in an impromptu Smash-fest last night. I'm fairly pleased with my progress so far, but I've got some ways to go before I completely phase mindless rolling out of my game. I'll work on getting a handful of new videos up after I return from work this evening.
 

GDX

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theres alot of truth in what youve said, but after traveling and seeing both of them live, i really do believe ninjalink is currently the best diddy hands down. the rest of the list can be debated for the rest of time

but if i were to rank diddy mains nationwide from what ive seen in videos/live, id say you and me are tied for 5th thein, along with 1 or 2 others :laugh:

completely unrelated to the thread, whens the next tourney ill be able to hang with you again? you going to world hobo in april? ill see you there baby <3
 

ADHD

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thien i wanna play you do you have any idea if you're coming back to the east coast for anything
 

DelxDoom

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Vs Snake? I think it would be great if you could pick up bananas plus nades into your style, especially versus nade happy Snakes.
ie.- Throwing bananas at nades make them explode near Snake
-Glidetossing a banana over a nade to hit Snake, pick up a nade and glidetoss that for your banana

also learning the running pick up item thing (no dash attack, the one where you run then crouch and press Z over the item) would be useful for Diddy vs Snake.

*shrug*
 

Le_THieN

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completely unrelated to the thread, whens the next tourney ill be able to hang with you again? you going to world hobo in april? ill see you there baby <3
I will hopefully be ready and up to snuff to perform well again by WHOBO, yes. This time, we will hang out for real and play some real matches. =) Jalapeno kettle-cooked potato chips from 7-Eleven rule!

thien i wanna play you do you have any idea if you're coming back to the east coast for anything
You can have the pleasure of owning me when BoRn and I go to APEX.

Vs Snake? I think it would be great if you could pick up bananas plus nades into your style, especially versus nade happy Snakes.
Good advice. I've actually started Z-snatching grenades out of the air, cooking them myself, and then throwing them back at Snake's shield. They shield-stab a lot more often than you would think. Also, if grenades are past optimal cooking time, instant-throwing them back immediately seems to work like a charm as well.

Anyway, I housed Dallas before and after NO KOAST in Wichita, KS, this past weekend, and I got owned pretty hard by both Infinity (MK) and Dr. Mario Guy (Wario), and this has been somewhat discouraging to me. I was already in the process of completely revaluating the MK match-up due to me getting ***** hard by Dojo and M2K in Philly at CoT4, but I also found out this past weekend that I evidently don't know jack **** about the Wario match-up. I need to take a breather, step away for a short while and rejuvenate my entire frame of mind when it comes to Brawl.

In the mean time, I will upload videos from this past weekend (against those two, plus Bwett's Yoshi, UTD Zac's G&W, and a couple of other guys). The only thing I know for sure from this past weekend is that Diddy at least has the advantage on Yoshi, however slight it may be. =/
 

DMG

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Hey Thien, it's alright man. You're still a great Diddy dude. I mean, I haven't been playing Diddy for long, just decided that I would try him seriously on Friday, and I know this might sound weird, but like the biggest thing I realized with Diddy is that he's not really forced to play any particular way.

I'm sure people thought my Diddy is weird as hell, but hey at least they gotta admit that they didn't expect that coming lol. I saw how other people played him and wanted to play him different cause I thought people played him weird, so I played him differently. Wasn't hard for me since I didn't have a playstyle with him to begin with/try to change, and I know it might take you a bit to try and find that style that suits you well. But don't sweat it, take a break if you feel like you need one, step back like you said and just start fresh.
 

pastaboy

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about the cooking snakes grenades. i may be mistaken but cant snake just press shield while you are holding a grenade and it drops on his command?.some kind of programing error crap.
 

GDX

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imma get to hang with thein and born at world hobo AND apex? lol imma die laughing in the process. you people are too ridiculous in person
 

Count

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Thien you should also come to the MW sometime while you're traveling =).

I'm too poor and I have to study too often to travel too much, maybe I will travel a bit once school is out..
 

DMG

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Thien you should also come to the MW sometime while you're traveling =).

I'm too poor and I have to study too often to travel too much, maybe I will travel a bit once school is out..
Well we came to Kansas... WHY WEREN'T YOU THERE? :( Lol.

But naw, Texas and OK and some other guys will maybe travel some to the midwest areas more.
 

Le_THieN

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Big ol' bump. Check the OP for a new essay on why I'm amazing. Updated with recent videos of the ever-elusive Yoshi match-up and and G&W at the moment - videos of me against an up-and-coming Sheik player named Light and my MK workout with d4bA and Dojo to follow in the coming hours.
 

DMG

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Thien do you still have some of our games from before/after No Koast? I know that some of them were accidentally recorded over when we went out to Cici's.
 
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