Le THieN's Match-Up Newsflash: Marth vs. Diddy is Even

[Praxis]

Kos-Mos is crazy but...you seemed to not know the matchup that well at times. :/ Not meaning to offend you (and I'm a Peach, not a Diddy xD)

[*]If Peach D-airs against your shield, you can punish her by U-smashing out of it.

This is also no longer true or even remotely viable. U-smash's hit-box appears on Frame 6; Peach can D-air against your shield and have N-air buffered for you to eat before U-smash even has a fighting chance of doing any damage. D-air's nonexistent cool-down combined with N-air's two-frame start-up are just too much for even Diddy's fastest anti-air ground attacks (U-smash, U-tilt) to handle.

Predict the nair and you can punish it. Then it becomes a guessing game. If you predict the Peach will not nair, you can usmash. If you predict the Peach will nair, you can continue shielding and punish.

[*]Peach's F-air is punishable against your shield with either a shield-grab or a jab.

This is only true if Peach incorrectly spaces F-air and manages to not auto-cancel it upon landing; it is rare for both of these scenarios to occur at the same time. Peach's F-air is, to my knowledge, the only aerial in the entire game that actually grants a character frame advantage if it connects against a shield. What better to follow that up with outside of a jab combo that comes out on the first frame? Peach's F-air to jab is virtually unpunishable; the only time I have shield-grabbed Peach out of her F-air is when KOS-MOS didn't react fast enough; the pseudo-super-armor frames on my grab absorbed the blows of his first jab twice in one match. This is only ever punishable due to user error, but I still would never count on user error to surface while trying to counterattack Peach's F-air.

I love this about Peach.

You can rush the fair so that it hits your shield earlier and then shieldgrab before the autocancel, however. Otherwise, shield the fair and jab and roll away. Don't. Grab. You can't punish it, but you CAN avoid getting hurt.

[*]Peach does not have a good or reliable approach against Diddy Kong.

LOL. Welcome to SHed D-air, the newest Peach flavor currently being popularized by KOS-MOS. D-air, upon activation, turns Peach's short hops into quick, jagged arcs whose pressure can start from the front of your shield and position her behind you, making it ideal for defensive conditioning. Upon landing behind you, she will also still have frame advantage.

Also, Peach is a zoning machine while she is in Float. She can be elevated enough off the ground to render glide-tossing temporarily useless, and can move forward to advance and pressure, or backward to retreat after baiting aerials (this usually the case when KOS-MOS ends up stuffing my F-air attempts). She closes distance relatively fast in this state, making even a retreat over her head via a smashed Monkey Flip somewhat of a gamble.

Float is amazing because it allows her to zone large chunks of both stage ground and air space simultaneously.

[*]Peach has issues KOing.

No.

No, she does not.

Yes, she does. She gains most of her KO's via gimps, which she can do to Diddy fairly well. Learn her KO moves and DI properly and you will live to 150-200%.

• Many of Peach's ground attacks are unpunishable (even by OOS glide-tosses) due to their low cool-down times. The only ones that I have managed to consistently punish with any degree of success have been whiffed or blocked U-smashes, D-smashes or F-tilts. This needs to be tested more, but even her F-smash seemed safe against my shield, as KM often power-shielded my glide-toss attempts immediately after I tried to counterattack.

• 
  
  Stop glide tossing. Projectile throw OOS is 3 frames- glide toss adds more frame. If Kos-Mos powershields your glide tossed banana OOS after his fsmash, you can simply throw the banana without powershielding and it'll hit a few frames earlier. I learned this in the G&W matchup, where I could glide toss a turnip OOS from a shielded bair and he could powershield it, but not if I tossed it OOS with A and no roll.
  
  
  
  Hope that helps Thanks for getting vids of Kos-Mos up!! This'll actually help me in the Diddy matchup a bit

 

[Le_THieN]

Kos-Mos is crazy but...you seemed to not know the matchup that well at times. :/ Not meaning to offend you (and I'm a Peach, not a Diddy xD)

That's fair. I already pointed this out myself, since KM is pretty much singlehandedly rewriting the script for how the Peach/Diddy match-up should be played. I've played a lot of Peaches, and they all felt like KM's Peach...before he leveled up. Like I said, I feel like I'm in the process of learning a completely new match-up, since most of everything I used to do no long works.

Thank you for the advice though; I've got a lot of new ideas and suggestions to try out next week.

 

[rvkevin]

I just took notes while I was watching so this is what I was thinking in no order of importance, just as they came up during the matches…

Give yourself retreating room, don't wait near/on the edge shooting peanuts when he's approaching…don't Side B Attack (only exception is Side B Hump if she's shielding), only use it to maneuver/retreat away, there's too many times when you just Side B Kick into his shield and get punished. Stationary dodge less. Don't Dash Attack into him. When he's approaching with Floated Dairs retreat (although not off of the stage), don't sit there and shield. You shouldn't be getting hit by so many Fairs, the startup lag is pretty noticeable…Punish his Fairs with a Grab (Perfect Shield it if on the ground, spaced Fair if in the air) or a spaced Fair. When your shield gets low, run away for a little bit until it refreshes. When you're in the Dairs, DI/roll away and reset your spacing, I don't think there's that much of an opportunity to be offensive. Stop jumping into the Fsmashes, if you need to, Air Dodge past the ledge and instantly Up B if they are charging a Fsmash. I don't like it when you pull bananas and then go to the ledge, I don't see why you do this, it only puts you in a disadvantageous position…There's really no need to gimp her so don't go offstage when she's recovering, just shoot peanuts and then punish her when she returns from the ledge. Same goes for edge hog, she can just float until your invincibility wears out, just punish when she recovers from the edge. Use fair more, especially when you think she's going to float, its covers both options, also, use it to pick up bananas instead of dash attack. Don't roll, unless its away, there's no point in rolling behind Peach. Get more used to opponents that use bananas against you. When he's holding a banana on the ground, punish him, if you Fair when he throws it, you will catch the banana and hit him, if he stays and shields, run up to him and shield grab…Don't do smashes unless they're guaranteed. After the Side B hump, FFAD away, there's no guaranteed follow up. You die at way too low percents, play more safe when your in "kill range." Diddy's a stock tank, just learn how to avoid KO moves and you'll be living to at least %150 every stock. You seriously shouldn't be dying at 110% from a Fair from the middle of the stage. Work on your DI, I honestly don't know how you died the last stock last game, you were doing an Utilt and still had bad DI. You try to be so offensive its border-line reckless, try to bait his attacks more and punish instead.

As for the Myths:
1. The Peanut Popgun is an excellent deterrent to Peach's Float.
Peanut is good to bait attacks…it should never be relied on to actually hit him or at close range. Btw, I never charge the peanut...
2. If Peach D-airs against your shield, you can punish her by U-smashing out of it.
Yeah, just roll away if you end up like that, try to avoid the situation all together, it doesn't happen that often anyway....
3. Peach's F-air is punishable against your shield with either a shield-grab or a jab.
I'm pretty sure you can Perfect Shield->Grab…or if you have a banana, Glide Toss backwards and throw the banana forwards before the Fair connects.
4. Peach does not have a good or reliable approach against Diddy Kong.
Peach shouldn't be that close to your shield where Dair would hit you, you can't be stationary when they're approaching. If you foxtrot away you can probably SH Bair/Fair him, I doubt the Dair out prioritizes all of Diddy's moves. I thought Diddy's Groundspeed>Float Speed. Diddy is so much more agile than Peach, this is where his Glide Toss game still holds strong...
5. Peach has issues KOing.
Peach has issues landing a KO move.

For anyone going to Apex: JJ "The Diddy Killer" Wolf will be taking any and all Money Matches, your Diddy vs. his Wolf.

 

[Le_THieN]

]For anyone going to Apex: JJ "The Diddy Killer" Wolf will be taking any and all Money Matches, your Diddy vs. his Wolf.

EDIT: Whoops, misread that. JJ is awesome.

 

[rvkevin]

Cool, thanks for all the evidence that dispels my claims. You sound like you should have zero issues thwarting KM in a MM this weekend. =)

Don't be so cynical, I'm trying to give you advice...Sorry, but I can't go to Apex, I'll be in the Bahamas.

 

[Le_THieN]

Don't be so cynical, I'm trying to give you advice...Sorry, but I can't go to Apex, I'll be in the Bahamas.

It's not cynicism; it's just head-scratching curiosity at the fact that no one is making even a slight concession with the fact that Peach is actually a very difficult match-up.

 

[Bellioes]

Sorry but I dont know anything about the Peach matchup and have nothing to say
But do you guys know where I can watch Apex streamed live. I wont be going anywhere this sunday so I thought why not watch whats going on over there.

 

[rvkevin]

It's not cynicism; it's just head-scratching curiosity at the fact that no one is making even a slight concession with the fact that Peach is actually a very difficult match-up.

I just don't think you played well in this matchup, as you said, "My bad habits tend to be much more pronounced in match-ups or against opponents that I don't have a clear idea how to deal with, so this will all be worked on." There are a lot of times where he just punishes your mistakes or die from bad DI or something irrelevent to the matchup...A lot of the times you died at less than 110, which is what Snakes should be killing you at...I just think that you zone/space bad against Peach...Maybe playing as Peach in friendlies would help you learn her hitboxes and weaknesses better...Once you learn her weaknesses, its actually pretty easy.

 

[Le_THieN]

Okay. WE'LL SEE WHO'S RIGHT IN THE END

LOL.

But no, you all are making valid points.

Tell JJ I said WADDUP

 

[ADHD]

Turtle is too good

kosmos, how does an MM sound against my LONG, and HARD fair? i'll MM JJ if i find him, I love spacies.

 

[DelxDoom]

I thought Peach was one of the matchups where you use less bananas because they stay in the air a lot?

usmash, sh fair and sh bair zoning is like the entire diddy side.

you could even barrel cancel peach's dair.

>.>

less bananas and less grabs. more SDI vs dair. more fair because fair is pretty good.

i'm thinking flip kick when spaced properly actually will wreck any nonground peach approach.

 

[Likeness101]

Don't be so cynical, I'm trying to give you advice...Sorry, but I can't go to Apex, I'll be in the Bahamas.

The Bahamas is too good, no swine fly hur.

 

[rvkevin]

Turtle is too good

kosmos, how does an MM sound against my LONG, and HARD fair? i'll MM JJ if i find him, I love spacies.

Much <3 ADHD

Diddy is JJ's favorite matchup so he's looking forward to it...be forewarned, he knows the matchup really well...Please record!

@Del: I still use bananas a lot against Peach, but I don't throw them forward that much...I use them mostly for ground movement (to adjust the spacing) throwing them up/down...Only when Peach's float runs out/float cancel or is on the ground do I glide toss them forward. I don't like using the flip kick at all...

 

[ADHD]

JJ is the wolf? I'm pretty inexperienced against wolf but I somewhat have an idea of what to do. I'll just try and get it recorded and everyone can watch me get destroyed!

 

[DelxDoom]

YEAH, JJ is really really impressive actually. On Youtube. yeahhh

Yeah glidetossing is always useful. I just think you shouldn't be relying on banana throws for hitting the Peach since it won't usually cause slips (they're in the air) and Peach's pressure makes throwing bananas difficult.

 

[ADHD]

I know he's going to fair and keep up a massively good defense, but I'm going to have so much fun against that XD

 

[rvkevin]

YEAH, JJ is really really impressive actually. On Youtube. yeahhh

Yeah glidetossing is always useful. I just think you shouldn't be relying on banana throws for hitting the Peach since it won't usually cause slips (they're in the air) and Peach's pressure makes throwing bananas difficult.

Don't put too much trust in youtube, for every shine gimp he has on me, theres been a time where hes missed and I end up gimping him...

I don't use the bananas to trip Peach, I use them to position myself on the ground...In the air they lead into aerials. When I say throw bananas up, I don't mean up at her, its just another distraction for the Peach if they want to approach/float over you and you can use the glide toss movement for spacing...in the event they hit Peach, thats just a bonus.

 

[DelxDoom]

That youtube comment was just to say just that thing about youtube.

aha.

 

[Trela]

Diddy's my favorite match up...

...yet I have yet to take out a Diddy in Brackets lol. And I dont count you ThieN as one

=Trela=

 

[Kaptain Kong]

i played a peach on wifi today

i usually beat their gnw, but peach was just tough
i couldnt do much when they were in the air

i found it sometimes helpful to run away and when they glide towards me, to gt down and back and gt one up and back to limit their options

 

[Gnes]

Kos-Mos is fun to play against...I wonder if he can beat the new Gnes...the one that 2 stocked Praxis...

OOOOHHHHHH

 

[ADHD]

Kos-Mos is fun to play against...I wonder if he can beat the new Gnes...the one that 2 stocked Praxis...

OOOOHHHHHH

Wait, who? LOL

 

[Dojo]

I go by Doj, for short.

ADHD teach me Diddy.

 

[GDX]

I go by Doj, for short.

ADHD teach me Diddy.

...wow

10wtfs

 

[Dojo]

It's a syllable less, for those who are lazy. Don't wtf me. I'll kill you.

 

[GDX]

It's a syllable less, for those who are lazy. Don't wtf me. I'll kill you.

lol. you and me gonna be going to jersey. im black...ill blend into the crowds and kill you first. you shouldnt be hard to spot with giant sunglasses

 

[fource]

LOL. pahahaha. I came in at the right time...

 

[Le_THieN]

OMG, I'm getting too old for this game. I wish I could just make fun threads like this forever.

 

[GDX]

OMG, I'm getting too old for this game. I wish I could just make fun threads like this forever.

thein you going to apex? whos your teammate?

 

[pastaboy]

Thien add my msn(if you have it)

 

[Le_THieN]

thein you going to apex? whos your teammate?

I might make an appearance. Still in the works at the moment. I'm not teaming with you though, because I don't like black people.

EDIT: Sorry, Pasta, I don't have MSN.

 

[Dekar173]

I might make an appearance. Still in the works at the moment. I'm not teaming with you though, because I don't like black people.

EDIT: Sorry, Pasta, I don't have MSN.

lmfao. The irony is beautiful, and I can even see it.

 

[Player-1]

Can Diddy Uair out of Peach's Dair? According to ADHD's thread about it he could, but I've only been able to do it when she SH Dairs you, I've never been able to do it out of her float, well I think I've done it once, but I think that it was because of incorrect DI reading on the Peach's part.

 

[white peachy]

Can Diddy Uair out of Peach's Dair? According to ADHD's thread about it he could, but I've only been able to do it when she SH Dairs you, I've never been able to do it out of her float, well I think I've done it once, but I think that it was because of incorrect DI reading on the Peach's part.

I asked the same thing a few pages ago. I think it is possible to SDI uair out of the floating Dair but I think it may be relative to diddy's damage percent which affects the knockback of the individual hits of Dair. Since the first few hits draw diddy upwards, if you SDI up and uair then I think at relatively high percents (like 75% plus...but that's not tested just throwing a number out there) you should be able to uair. I'm not positive though and I need to test it more.

 

[ADHD]

Diddy's uair is random. If you SDI out of metaknight's tornado every single time it will hit you, you'll sometimes escape it with that aerial <_<

TheJerm is a BEAST. @ dojo why would I want to tell you my secrets

 

[rvkevin]

TheJerm is a BEAST. @ dojo why would I want to tell you my secrets

Dojo's Diddy is awesome, more impressive than his MK in my opinion...Then again, I wouldn't want to play his MK if he has more Diddy knowledge.

 

[Dojo]

@ dojo why would I want to tell you my secrets

Why not?

 

[Gnes]

I go by Doj, for short.

ADHD teach me Diddy.

Don't teach this ***** anything!!!! I already ate infinity, and your next. Wait till SWAT.

Jerm does ****. He was beating flip in some friendlies at Roy's house, and ****** a very frustrated roy lol. Dojo's diddy is trash, nuff said. Stick to BROKN.

 

[fource]

Why not?

Me and Ninja/BoRn were talking about this because Zeton told us to teach him how to play Diddy and we actually decided that he's "impossible" to teach. I mean you can learn all of the differents ATs but every person uses them differently depending on if you play aggressive vs. passive aggressive (which in my opinion should be the two ways Diddy's should play unless the match-up is really specific). Yeah, that's just my two cents.

(O_o)

 

[rvkevin]

Me and Ninja/BoRn were talking about this because Zeton told us to teach him how to play Diddy and we actually decided that he's "impossible" to teach. I mean you can learn all of the differents ATs but every person uses them differently depending on if you play aggressive vs. passive aggressive (which in my opinion should be the two ways Diddy's should play unless the match-up is really specific).

I disagree about it being impossible to teach Diddy...You are right that Diddy in general should play aggressive/passive aggressive, but how you do that depends on the individual and the matchup...There are matchups where the normal tactics don't apply such as Peach/Falco, and this is where teaching how to play Diddy comes into play. While an entire play style would be hard to teach, critiquing someone would guide them to play more optimally. Simply seeing someone using a move uniquely could improve another player drastically. When I saw ADHD use Fair as a kill move when they are on the ground and as a way to pick up bananas, I implemented it into my game and my game got so much better.