Lava and You: A Marth's Guide to Norfair

[Shaya]

hahahahahaha no.
You can however auto cancel it the frame before a hitbox comes out though.

 

[Remzi]

Yea I used to use that for buffering tilts/grabs/jab but it's actually not very useful haha. You can just airdodge instead. >_>

 

[Raziek]

*EDIT: Another cool norfair trick you might wanna add. If you have a higher port than the other person (i.e you are p4 and the other guy is p1), when the huge lava wave comes (the one where the hut appears) try to get the grab. It kills pretty early and you won't eat any knockback, but you'll take 16%. Definitely worth it in most cases. If it doesn't kill your opponent it'll bring him to the top and put him in a bad position which you can abuse.

I'll add this in on my next update.

 

[Remzi]

Cool, it's pretty easy to land considering most people's tendencies to shield when the wave comes.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Raziek work with shaya on brinstar, and get a hold of me for orpheon I love orpheon in general.


also this is random but add you can tech the safety hut. It saved me once it was kinda funny, its unlikely it will make much of a difference but every little bit helps

oh and great guide

 

[Raziek]

Raziek work with shaya on brinstar, and get a hold of me for orpheon I love orpheon in general.


also this is random but add you can tech the safety hut. It saved me once it was kinda funny, its unlikely it will make much of a difference but every little bit helps

oh and great guide

Alright, will do. And yeah, I'll add that in with Bengalz's bit on the next update.

 

[clowsui]

steel samurai almost beat kel on this stage in pools, **** was ridiculous

ofc since kel cp'd and he is master of jank along w/ OS steel didn't win

marth's up b ledge snap makes edgeguarding a little more versatile than i thought

 

[Shaya]

You didn't think instant ledge snap didn't make marth's edge guardings a **** versatile option why?
Or are you thinking norfair in general?

 

[Adapt]

I always thought Norfair was a good stage for YOU, rather than Marth in general Raz... I still CP it against other Marths, but I steer clear of it when up against you

 

[xxmoosexx]

Where did you come up with looking into Norfair Raziek?

I actually mentioned Norfiar being a legitimate CP to diddy in a thread before, and people were like hey we should start looking into unorthodox stuff.

Hurraayy.

Raziek is da bess.

 

[Raziek]

Where did you come up with looking into Norfair Raziek?

I actually mentioned Norfiar being a legitimate CP to diddy in a thread before, and people were like hey we should start looking into unorthodox stuff.

Hurraayy.

Raziek is da bess.

It came up in the meta-game thread when Shaya mentioned that he hated fighting Dedede on it. (I think) Lord Chair suggested a thread be made on it, I saw it and eagerly volunteered. Norfair is my favorite stage, for sure. I use it all the time, and as you can see, I know it pretty well. xD

 

[Blacknight99923]

I was showing this to brent ( socal MK falco player) at a tournament. he looked like he was about to stop using MK on CPs and start using marth on norfair when he realized you can stay anywhere on the stage which is somthing no other character can legally do IIRC well mabey ike

 

[xxmoosexx]

It came up in the meta-game thread when Shaya mentioned that he hated fighting Dedede on it. (I think) Lord Chair suggested a thread be made on it, I saw it and eagerly volunteered. Norfair is my favorite stage, for sure. I use it all the time, and as you can see, I know it pretty well. xD

Well then Im glad some of my ideas are coming to light. Im so lazy.

 

[Raziek]

I was showing this to brent ( socal MK falco player) at a tournament. he looked like he was about to stop using MK on CPs and start using marth on norfair when he realized you can stay anywhere on the stage which is somthing no other character can legally do IIRC well mabey ike

Well, considering that the hazards aren't ALWAYS around, and you can still be hit by well-timed enemy projectiles (you aren't 100% immune, you're just timing hitboxes), I would hardly consider it an extremely reliable strategy, but it DOES have its uses.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I always knew that there would be a way to really abuse the fact that the lava has to "reset" its hitbox

Glad to see someone found a way to take advantage of it.

Still, I want to know how much time it takes for the lava to reset the hitbox, because it seems like a set number for any kind of lava (at least, on Norfair).

 

[clowsui]

You didn't think instant ledge snap didn't make marth's edge guardings a **** versatile option why?
Or are you thinking norfair in general?

i meant on norfair specifically, it grants him a huge amount of mobility considering the massive "magnet" range that the ledgesnap has and marth's horizontal range

 

[xxmoosexx]

Do you think this could work on like spikes or hitboxes on Pictochat or whatever that stage is called?

 

[Blacknight99923]

Well, considering that the hazards aren't ALWAYS around, and you can still be hit by well-timed enemy projectiles (you aren't 100% immune, you're just timing hitboxes), I would hardly consider it an extremely reliable strategy, but it DOES have its uses.

the basic set up with norfair is great for marth with or without hazards. I mean the number of moves you illustrated that went through above platforms is insane, the fact we aren't required to move for hazards is a valuable asset. the only characters that can abuse the platforms are those with huge disjoints and those with controlable trajectory projectiles in general.
oh and ganondorf....

that stage makes ganon a viable character to pick on it


As I am sure you agree norfair also helps with our recovery TREMENDOUSLY.

It also helps fox a lot IMO since its hard to chain grab him here and he can run around here like no ones business. His recovery options are also significantly better here because with stall and cancels and THREE ledges to shoot for he can almost always make it back here. his comboing game isn't really hurt here either since he tends to combo up. and his projectile isn't really hurt since it doesn't flinch to begin with so it isn't really a factor.



For a wihle I have been playing on norfair in general and I always thought it was decent for marth, however now I think its amazing

 

[Raziek]

So, I'm planning on doing the formatting for the match-ups tonight.

Unless there are any objections, I'm planning on covering S, A, B, and C tiers, and any other characters OTHER than that, can be requested if you'd like to see them covered.

Edit: I also added in the information noted by Bengals and Blacknight.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Rarr I am like Rei-gun and minty I am FeSoren not blacknight..........

 

[Raziek]

Rarr I am like Rei-gun and minty I am FeSoren not blacknight..........

Alrighty then, I'll correct that.

Edit: Fix'd it.

 

[Blacknight99923]

thank you.

I showed that vid to larry on aim and he was like

wow........

 

[Raziek]

thank you.

I showed that vid to larry on aim and he was like

wow........

Larry as in DEHF? I'm glad to see I'm helping people out. ^_^

Edit: Crazy Aussies, I forgot Shaya can't transfer me that post until the time zone compensates. Tomorrow then. >_>

 

[Shaya]

Go nuts.

Voila.

 

[Raziek]

Go nuts.

Voila.

Hot ****, I'm still awake.

Alright, I'm just gonna throw together the formatting, since I'm pretty tired. I'll handle the actual stuff over the next few days.

Edit: Alright, formatting is complete. I am now officially accepting video submissions and general tips on ANY match-ups for which anyone wants to contribute.

Please note, I'm not going to re-iterate everything about the match-up as it is on standard stages.

Good Post:

In the Snake match-up on Norfair, we can more safely pressure Snake's shield using Bair if we force him onto the upper levels. It's strong disjoint (especially when retreated) allows us to remain safe while still applying good pressure.

Bad Post:

AGAINST MK, YOU SHOULD SPACE GOOD WITH FAIR.

I'll be starting on the match-ups tomorrow, most likely.

Also notice that I decided to add D tier to the mix, when I remembered that we have a few random 50:50's residing in D tier (Wolf, DK, and debatably Peach)

 

[mikeHAZE]

nobody posted this yet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2aRil5TsxM

 

[clowsui]

@mike it's in the OP

 

[mikeHAZE]

Looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

 

[KingJacob]

This is probably a really stupid question, but does countering the lava help un-diminish your other moves? I honestly doubt that counter can even un-diminish moves when used against people so this is probably going to be a big no.... Thank you in advance for any help you could give me.

 

[Remzi]

That's actually a good question. I was under the impression that counter didn't go stale because it has a set damage ratio. Anyone know the answer to this?

 

[Blacknight99923]

I was waiting for Shaya to answer myself

 

[Raziek]

This..... is a good question. I'm going to guess not, because your counter never actually HITS anything, but I'll test it later when I get some time, I'm super busy right now.

 

[Shaya]

I thought counter did perhaps stale because I've seen it do 7% damage before ;\

(and if it had no decay properties it would always be 8%)

 

[Remzi]

god dammit shaya you were supposed to have a definitive answer

 

[Shaya]

well as I said, if it has no decay it would always do the same amount of damage.

Pretty easy to see yourself, but if I recall correctly, it doing 7% at all means there is decay somewhere.

 

[Raziek]

Yeah, but if you're in the lava and you counter, you don't hit anything. I would think that since you whiffed it, it's the HIT that counts for move staling, not the activation itself.

 

[Shaya]

that would probably be true.

 

[Blacknight99923]

now that I think about it yes because the lava (if it could) would be decayed for hitting a hurtbox not the other way around so yes you have to hit something with counter for it to be decayed

 

[Reizilla]

Speaking of decay, when you hit the safe zone thing for the big wave, does it count?

 

[Remzi]

Yes that should decay/refresh your moves.