• All episodes of the new Smash Brothers documentary 'Metagame' are available on Vimeo! Get Metagame Here

  • Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

  • Support Smashboards and get Premium Membership today!

Lava and You: A Marth's Guide to Norfair

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
NNID
Raziek
3DS FC
3866-8131-5247
Lava and You: A Marth's Guide to Norfair



Welcome to Norfair!

Norfair has most recently come into play as one of the new counter-picks to be added to the MLG stage list. Not conventionally legal, this stage has a lot of controversy surrounding it. This guide is meant to serve as a tool for Marths to learn HOW this stage works, and how to use it against our opponents as efficiently and effectively as possible.

Warning: This guide is picture-heavy.


General Features

Blast Zones





The bottom blast zone for Norfair is quite deep, but this is not necessarily a bad thing. As we know, Marth possess an exceptional vertical recovery. Using his double jump, a DB stall, and DS, Marth IS capable of recovering to the bottom platform from the very bottom of the stage.

Norfair plays nicely with our recovery, and the only time you should ever be gimped is if you happen to DI downwards and end up outside of the horizontal distance required to reach the bottom platform. Vertical distance should play little issue.





The left and right blast-zones are of course, equally sized, and are actually larger than they appear in game. From my experience, the ceiling does not appear to curve towards the outside, and is actually closer to a square shape. I have survived to as high as 200% by DI'ing towards the corners. The ceiling itself is rather low, but the corners allow you some leeway.

Because of the size of the blast zones, it IS possible to grab early DS kills by fairing the opponent offstage, then DS'ing close to the ledge. If the Lava floor has risen, you can net an unexpected, early kill, and the floor will save you for a meager 14% damage.


Platforms​



Norfair's platforms are an interesting bunch. Norfair is comprised of three tiers of platforms: The bottom-most (center) platform, and two tiers of higher platforms, spaced equally in height and width from each other. (The stage is symmetrical) They are spaced such that a ledge-dropped double-jump allows quick and easy travel between the three ledges.

Norfair's bottom platform is semi-permeable. It can be passed through from below, but not through the green orb's structure. That structure is solid, meaning you can tech it, be stage-spiked off of it, and interact with it as you would a normal stage bottom. However, it CAN be passed through in the small space to the left and right of it.

Note: As seen in the picture above, if Dolphin Slash does not pass COMPLETELY through the bottom platform, you will fall through and die. (like Delfino) Fortunately, the edge snap is rather lenient, and holding backwards will allow you to grab the edge behind you.



The second and third tier of platforms are permeable, so you can fast-fall through them from above, and jump through from below without obstruction. However, there is one IMPORTANT catch with these platforms. They cannot be passed through by the edge that is grab-able. (As seen in the picture above) Take care doing d-tilts on the second and third tier of platforms, as it is easy to do a fall-through dair by mistake.

Next we'll move on to examining the different stage hazards that are present on Norfair. First up...

The Lava Floor

The first thing to know about Norfair's Lava Floor is that it rises to THREE different heights.

The first level can be seen two pictures up, where the lava rises to just below the bottom platform. This is one of the more common heights for it to be, and the lava will provide a net that will save you from the bottom blastzone. (Note: If spiked hard enough, you CAN be sent through it to your death.)



The second level (seen above), rises to completely cover the bottom platform. The second tier of platforms CAN be stood on safely, but be aware that the lava "flows" slightly, and parts of the second level occasionally become submerged in the lava for a brief period of time. This does not always cover the entire platform.


The third level (seen above), covers the bottom and second tier of platforms completely, and DOES NOT become exposed from the flow. The third platforms are completely safe in this scenario, and though the lava does flow, it will never cover the third tier.

Damage and Kill Information

The Lava Floor is the least dangerous of Norfair's hazards, and the most common. it does 14% per hit, and does not diminish in damage or knockback. However, the lava will not actually kill Marth until a very high percent.

It is survivable from the bottom platform up to 158%, with no DI. This number will vary slightly depending on what height you fall into it, and depending on your DI.

This transition is fairly benign, but can be turned to our advantage. When the lava rises to the third level, this will often force a separation of the players, with each taking a platform. However, if you are feeling aggressive, or the Lava Wall comes in from one side, take advantage of the situation by forcing your opponent INTO the lava by whatever means possible. Our aerials (sans Dair) are particularly effective at controlling space, and thanks to our maneuverability, forcing our opponents into the lava for combos is easy and effective.

Next hazard on our list:


The Lava Wall​


Periodically during the match, a vertical lava wall will come in from one side of the screen. This can occur on a 30 second timer (as explained at the bottom of the guide), sharing this "hazard clock" with the lava plumes. The wall will always move up to exactly the center of the stage, effectively dividing it in two. The screen will zoom out and focus on the side that the wall will be coming from, so if you notice it zoom out, take it as your cue to get on the opposite side of the screen, ready to force your opponent into the wall.

Note: This transition often occurs in conjunction with the Lava Floor rising, severely restricting the space available for play. Be prepared and take advantage of it.


Damage and Kill Information

The Lava Wall is one of the more dangerous hazards on Norfair. It does 14% when knocked into it, with moderate horizontal knockback in the opposite direction of the wall. This is survivable up to around 150%, though this seems to be somewhat affected by momentum, and can be DI'd.

It IS possible to power-shield the lava and roll to safety. As well, you can also air-dodge into it. (this can save you in a pinch, since you'll take the hit closer to the far side of the stage)

Make sure to take advantage of this transition as much as possible. Stay on the ledges and use retreating bair or fair to play wall-ball with your opponent. If they are unprepared, this is a great transition to rack up damage. If they begin to adapt to shielding your aerials, feel free to throw them into the wall for easy damage.


The Lava Geysers


Every 30 seconds, up to three (possibly four) geysers of lava can shoot up from the lava in the rear of the screen. Their appearance is preceded by the screen shaking (though the shaking does not ALWAYS mean they will come), and they will follow a few seconds later. They will arc in a straight line onto the stage, damaging anything in their path. These are extremely random in placement and number, but can occasionally net you some extra damage, and early kill, or some shield pressure.

Should you decide to deal with one by shielding it, wait until it contacts once, then let down your shield and MOVE. While the hitbox is active the entire time, my testing has indicated that there is a set period of time before the lava can hit you again, giving you time to move. If you choose to shield two hits there is a SEVERE risk of breaking your shield. Fortunately for us, this works both ways. If your opponent shields a hit, go for the break. You'll almost certainly land it, then you've earned a free kill, and the Geyser may even finish them off FOR you.

Note: The Geysers often arrive while the Lava Floor has risen, limiting the space available to maneuver.


Damage and Kill Information​

The Lava Geysers are the most dangerous hazard on Norfair, despite dealing the least damage. They only do 10% damage, but they pack one HELL of a punch. Depending on where you get hit, these can kill you as early as 80%, and are somewhat difficult to DI. Be prepared to avoid them, and should the opportunity present itself, take advantage of the shield pressure they can put on your opponent.

Finally, our last hazard:


The Lava Wave​


Just before the Lava Wave occurs, the "Safety hut" will appear on a random platform, with its doors shut. (Note: This slightly widens the platform it appears on) The safety hut's doors will open when struck by any attack. It's also worth nothing that the safety hut CAN be teched against. (Thanks to FeSoren for this tip) After the hut emerges, the Wave will spring up in the background, and begin rushing towards the screen.

At this point, you have two options.

  • Rush for the Safety Hut
  • Avoid the Wave

Rushing for the safety hut is an extremely bad idea. Should you even manage to make it in, you'll be trapped in there for a few seconds following the wave, and some opponents will be able to hit you from the outside, through the walls. Since we have disjointed attacks, this is what WE want to do. Let your opponent take the hut if they choose to, and if they do, poke them with Fair, Bair, U-smash, F-smash, or anything else sufficiently disjointed and punish them for their really bad idea.

Note: If the Safety Hut appears on the second or top tier of platforms, once the walls are up, there will not be enough standing room to stay on the platform, so you MAY get hit if you try to shield on the same platform as the hut.

Option 2 is clearly the best, and there are several means by which we can avoid the wave.

  1. Spot-dodge
  2. Shield
  3. Go over it
  4. Use Invincibility Frames

Shielding is by far the safest option. The shield damage is negligible, and there is only mild shield-stun. You CANNOT be hit by the wave if you shield, even the tiniest spec remaining will protect you. (Though it may break.)

Spot-dodging is risky, since you can be hit if you miss-time it. Going over it is a reasonable option. From the top platform, you can jump over it using only our two jumps, and you can Dolphin Slash if you need to for that little bit of extra height, though you risk leaving yourself vulnerable if your opponent is nearby.

The most bad-*** option we have is to time a Dolphin Slash JUST right so that the wave passes by during our invincibility frames. I've successfully done this a few times, but the timing is very strict and is quite unsafe. Reserve this option for those "HUMILIATION!" moments.


Damage and Kill Information​


The Lava Wave is probably the second-most dangerous hazard on the stage, if only because it is easy to avoid, unlike the Geysers. The wave itself does 16% and has high knock-back. Without DI, this will kill Marth at 80% (Bottom Platform), 70% (Second tier) or 60% (Top Tier), so make sure you DO NOT GET HIT BY THIS.

This transition presents a great Risk vs. Reward situation. You can choose to camp it out and play safe, or you can rush your opponent in an attempt to poke them while they try to defend, possibly forcing an early kill or a shield-break. If you're feeling ballsy, try to hit them with an auto-canceled aerial into shield, right as the wave arrives.

Another interesting feature for the stage, pointed out by BengalsRZ:

BengalsRZ said:
If you have a higher port than the other person (i.e you are p4 and the other guy is p1), when the huge lava wave comes (the one where the hut appears) try to get the grab. It kills pretty early and you won't eat any knockback, but you'll take 16%. Definitely worth it in most cases. If it doesn't kill your opponent it'll bring him to the top and put him in a bad position which you can abuse.
Also note that this port priority trick works for ALL of Norfair's hazards.



NEW NORFAIR AT: Counter Stalling

Thanks to some discussion and testing between myself, Swordgard, and Syko_Lemming, I have refined and put together a new AT for Marth specifically for use on Norfair, which I have decided to call Counter Stalling.
The basic premise of the AT is to abuse the invincibility frames from counter, in combination with the power-shield and the grace period provided by the lava, to stall indefinitely inside ANY of Norfair's hazards.

I've put together a short instructional video on the AT which can be found HERE


Also included in the video is a quick demonstration of a Marth technique that is applicable on multiple stages, one of which is Norfair. If you buffer a dair out of a full hop, it should auto-cancel on the platform, eliminating the majority of the landing lag.

General Tips & Play-style Overview

Playing on Norfair will often revolve around controlling the bottom, central platform. From here, you can easily apply pressure on your opponent through retreating aerials, and attacks from underneath the platforms.

Fortunately, the bottom platform is semi-permeable, so make good use of D-tilt to force your opponents onto the ledge, and use your throws and aerials to KEEP THEM OFF THE GROUND. If they manage to set up camp in the middle, you will have a really hard time getting back in. Should this happen, retreat to the top platform until the stage throws a hazard out to displace them. Geysers, the Wall, and the Floor can all quickly force them out, and if they try to stay nearby, combo them off of the hazards. Once the hazards are gone, use your superior speed to quickly reclaim the center and resume pressure.

The goal is to force them onto the second or third tier platforms, then kill them early with an aerial from a safe distance. Tipped Nair can kill as early as 65% on some characters if you can force them onto the edge of the third tier platform. Bair and Uair are also extremely good kills on this stage, allowing you to attack safely (by retreating bair), and through quick vertical kills. (uair) be mindful of characters like Snake who will throw out attacks to trade with these. U-tilt can kill you extremely early if you get greedy and space poorly on a kill attempt.


Abusing the Platforms

Marth has a LOAD of options to abuse the platforms on this stage. His long disjoints allow him to hit our enemies from a safe distance while still effectively controlling space. Marth can stand under the opponent on the tier of platforms below, and remain completely safe.


From this position, Marth can retaliate with a number of attacks, including:

Jab



U-tilt


F-tilt



F-smash
Note: This is tough to land, but it always tippers.


U-smash


Our options for controlling space using our aerials are even better. If our opponent is on one of the upper tiers, we can use:

Bair


Fair


Nair


BACKWARDS Nair



Uair
Note: This is riskier, as it exposes Marth's hurtbox more.


Shield-breaker


The key to winning on Norfair is to control your space effectively, and force your opponents to deal with the stage. If you are playing correctly, you should RARELY be hit by Norfair's hazards, and your opponents will feel like they lost to the stage, not to you.

Important: Norfair is NOT RANDOM​

According to some recent trials done by Judo777, Norfair is NOT as random as initially thought.


Judo777 said:
(Some editing done for spelling n' such)

On Norfair every 30 seconds the stage will tell you what is about to happen. At about 7:30 (sec) into the match 1 of 3 things will happen. Either the screen will pan out to 1 side which will indicate that the lava wall will appear on that side in about 10 seconds, or you will see the screen start to shake, letting you know that lava plumes will be coming in about a second. However the last option is that nothing can happen at 7:30. (sec) However, if nothing happens at that time then nothing will continue to happen until 7:00 (sec).

Let me expound on each of these further. The lava plumes actually hit generally 5 seconds after the 30 second mark so actually at 35 seconds. However the screen should shake around the 30 second mark letting you know they are coming. The screen can however shake without sending lava plumes however its still a good heads up. However where the lava plumes hit and how many show up are in fact random.

The only thing that appears to mess this up a little is that when the giant lava wave comes up because (like i said earlier) that is completely random it appears that the second clock can be shifted by about 10 seconds. however all i ever noticed was a shift of no greater than 10 seconds from where it last was in reference to the 30 second interval.
So, the gist of how this works is:

  • The Lava Plumes and the Lava Wall operate on 30 second intervals.
  • The screen will shake prior to the arrival of the lava plumes.
  • The Lava Wave CANNOT occur while the plumes or wall is active, and only if the floor is BELOW stage level.
  • The Lava Wave seems to shift the "hazard clock" by about 10 seconds.

So, there we have it. Norfair isn't even as random as we once thought.

 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
NNID
Raziek
3DS FC
3866-8131-5247
Match-up Specific Tips

:metaknight:
Tips
  • This is going to be an aerial-heavy fight. Try not to get stuck in strings, and abuse the range on our aerials as much as possible.
  • Any time you are ABOVE MK, he will probably try to shuttle loop you. Pay attention and be careful.
  • Focus on being below, or to the side of MK. Bair has nice vertical range, and our Uair beats out Mk's Dair, so use it well.
  • D-Smash covers nearly the whole platform, watch out for it. You CAN get gimped if you DI down by mistake.
  • MK is still light, so use throws to combo him against the lava wall for early kills and quick damage.
  • Grab releases are still great here. While you may not be able to get the guaranteed follow-ups, you can grab release him into hazards and bad positions.
  • Beware of sharking with Uair, he can head right into a tornado and cause you problems.
  • D-Smash is very safe on Norfair, it will usually slide you onto the ledge or off the platform, if it isn't perfect shielded.
  • U-Smash OoS is also a good option to push MK out of the center, it usually pops him up and to the side.
  • Our nair is still very safe here, use it when MK is grounded on the platforms above you.
  • MK's nair is extremely dangerous here, he'll probably Nair OoS if you get too close for comfort.
  • U-tilt is also a good option for keeping MK out of the middle. It out ranges everything he has and MIGHT beat Tornado from below. (I'll probably check this.)
  • Final Verdict: Not as bad as you'd think, but there are better choices. Only use if the MK has NO experience here.

On Planking





That said, you WILL get shuttle looped all over the place, watch out for that.

Videos
Note: 1730


:snake:
Tips
  • Snake relies on his ground game almost exclusively. This is a really good thing on Norfair, because he'll only really get to use it on the bottom platform.
  • Marth already beats Snake in the air, and retreating aerials means Marth can safely pressure Snake's shield when he is on the upper tiers. Retreating bair is safe from all of Snake's attacks. (to my knowledge)
  • For keeping Snake out of the bottom, we rely on our standard ground tools for the match-up: D-tilt, DB, and grabs. General procedure applies here, get him up in the air, and start juggling. Snake can't do much from the ledge, so it is really easy to keep him in a bad position.
  • Note: Grenades explode when they contact lava, be aware of this.
  • As long as you are spacing carefully, you should be able to control the flow of the match. Play smart, and don't jump into U-tilt on the upper platforms, it will kill you early.
  • Beware of Snake's nair when space is tight. If you have to move somewhere, he can put it in the way, and you will HURT for it.
  • Be aware that Snake will probably survive FOREVER here, as he does in most places. Be prepared for long stocks.
  • Final Verdict: Norfair is an aerial stage, and Marth beats Snake handily in the air. I recommend this stage as a CP against Snake.


Videos
note: 1523




:diddy:
Tips



Videos



:falco:
Tips



Videos



:popo:
Tips



Videos



:marth:
Tips



Videos



:wario:
Tips
  • This match-up is already pretty straightforward, but Norfair means this battle is pretty much all aerial, where we beat Wario soundly.
  • Our aerials destroy Wario here, he can't really outrange us that effectively, and has no answer to our platform pressure thanks to his lack of range.
  • Watch out for Dair OoS, as it CAN throw you off a bit.
  • Grab releases still work great here, if you can get one, it's free hazard damage or follow-up.
  • In what little ground game there WILL be, all you really have to watch out for is F-Smash.
  • Wario already has an amazing recovery, so this stage doesn't help him, but it DOES help us. There's very little room for him to use/abuse the bike, so that's a plus.
  • Final Verdict: This is a great CP against Wario, I recommend it. Most Warios will ban FD, but Norfair helps accentuate what makes this match-up hard for Wario.

  • This match-up is kind of a pain. Dedede's size and grab range means he can effectively control the ENTIRE platform that he is on, so landing next to him is risky and ill-advised.
  • Dedede also has a lot of shenanigans with Inhale, since the platforms are semi-permeable. Beware of low percent inhalecides.
  • Waddle Toss is annoying, and admittedly a nuisance on this stage. He should be throwing them at every avaliable chance, and they CAN kill you early if you're on the top level of platforms.
  • Dedede's Bair is as big a problem as ever. Watch out for it, and TRY to outspace it with bair.
  • Dedede's throws and bair make it difficult to maneuver when space is restricted. I advise trying to stay on the ledges during the lava wall.
  • The match-up basically revolves around keeping Dedede out of the center, which is difficult.
  • Final Verdict: It isn't HORRIBLE, but there are better options for CPs.



Videos



:pikachu2:
Tips
  • Pikachu is also fairly straight-forward here. Abuse aerial pressure, SDI out of D-Smash.
  • Fighting Pikachu on the ground is difficult, but by no means impossible. D-tilt will be your friend here. Watch out for Pika's D-tilt and D-Smash, they are both quick with excellent range.
  • Pika's thunderjolts aren't really much of a problem here, just watch that they don't circle around a platform and hit you.
  • Pika will likely use Dair to try to get down to the ground. Either beat it out with a well-timed Uair, or avoid it and strike with a bair from the side (in the air), or shield it and punish on the ground.
  • Pikachu pretty much can travel anywhere using Skull-bash and QA, so gimping is not an option. Take advantage of the multiple ledges to score some extra damage with Fast-falled fairs.
  • Thunder can be a nuisance if the Pika takes center stage. Just don't do anything silly, it shouldn't present much of a problem here.
  • Final Verdict: Norfair is a mixed bag against Pikachu. It doesn't really do anything special for us, and Marth has a pretty easy time with Pikachu anyway. Use it if they don't know the stage.


Videos
Raziek vs. Lamb (Pikachu)

:olimar:
Tips



Videos



:lucario:
Tips



Videos



:gw:
Tips



Videos



:pit:
Tips



Videos



:toonlink:
Tips



Videos



:zerosuitsamus:
Tips



Videos



:kirby2:
Tips


Videos



:rob:
Tips
  • ROB's laser is pretty much a non-issue here, but be mindful of his Gyro. The only time ROB should attempt a laser is if you're separated to the top platforms by the lava floor.
  • Taking the bottom platform FROM ROB is a huge nuisance, D-Smash, U-tilt and his grabs are excellent at keeping us out. If he is set up well, I suggest waiting for a hazard.
  • Beware of falling nair if you're holding the center. It can catch you off guard, but it is laggy and punishable.
  • Gimping is prety much a non-issue here, which works heavily in our favor.
  • Uair as ROB rises through a platform is pesky, watch out for it if he's below you.
  • Counter stalling is NOT advised here, as ROB's laser and gyro can hit you while you are inside the lava.
  • This fight revolves almost exclusively around aerial combat. This is great, since we beat ROB in pretty much every aspect of the aerial battle. Get him in the air, and juggle like crazy.
  • Final Verdict: Norfair is great, Brinstar tends to be better.

Videos
Record Note: 1746


:dk2:
Tips
  • Nair DESTROYS DK here. His big frame means you'll be able to poke his shield with minimal effort.
  • Uair and Utilt are great for juggling, abuse it as much as possible.
  • If DK wants to try to DI towards the middle to take it from you, read his air-dodges and hit him with bair or fair back to the side platforms.
  • Dk's ground game revolves around keeping us at bay using his quick tilts. Because of the size of the platforms, we can get in close a LOT easier.
  • Be mindful of Grounded Up-B, it has super-armor and does a LOAD of damage if you jump into it foolishly.
  • Seriously, nair is extremely good in this match-up, since he'll be above you if you're playing it right.
  • Final Verdict: Norfair is a pretty solid choice against DK. You're safe from Cargo spikes, and bair doesn't get used against you a WHOLE lot. The only downside is that it assists HIS recovery as well as yours.

Videos
Record note for later: 1750


:peach:
Tips



Videos



:fox:
Tips



Videos



:luigi2:
Tips



Videos



:wolf:
Tips


Videos
 

swordgard

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
5,531
Location
Canada
To avoid the lava wave, use down b with marth too, very safe. Can be used to avoid almost every single hazard, including laval walls and floors, by doing it over and over in it you can even stall. You can also PS multiple time the same hazard to stay in it, just practice the timing a bit. For example, as the lava wall approaches you, PS it, let go, wait a bit, redo. More stalling!


MK can also IDC in the lava for the lulz.

Great guide overall though.
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
BRoomer
Rankings Team
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
27,658
Location
/人◕‿‿◕人\ FABULOUS Max!
NNID
ShayaJP
Are you saying Marth can jump into the lava wall with a counter and just keep doing it over and over ?

You know he has like 30 frames of vulnerability after his invincibility ends... Maybe the lava wall specifically has a new hitbox out about every 30 frames, that would make sense. But I'd need to see videos of it.
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
NNID
Raziek
3DS FC
3866-8131-5247
I'll test this out.

Initial testing suggests Swordgard is right. Counter goes DIRECTLY THROUGH the lava on the floor, though this doesn't help, since you just SD.

Ok, it seems quite plausible, but the timing is picky as hell.

Lava Wave can be for sure avoided.

Lava Wall can be stalled inside, but the timing is difficult, I've only gotten 2-3 in a row so far.

Floor can be stalled inside if it rises up, I got about 6 of those in a row before I messed it up.

Geyser is debatable. The first hit can be countered for sure, but I got hit as soon as it was over.

I'll keep testing this.
 

Reizilla

The Old Lapras and the Sea
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
13,676
What direction do the geysers send you?

Really nice, job man. I can see this being very useful. I'll try to start playing on it more and hopefully throw in an opinion.

Shaya, if you shield a hazard or are hit by it, you get a grace period of frames where you won't get hurt by them again, even if it's still out. Maybe he's saying that it's enough to pull out another counter. Someone should look into how many frames it is.
 

swordgard

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
5,531
Location
Canada
I'll test this out.

Initial testing suggests Swordgard is right. Counter goes DIRECTLY THROUGH the lava on the floor, though this doesn't help, since you just SD.
Although you can go hide in it. You can also go from counter to PS to ledge grab, then drop down jump counter to PS again.


Fun stuff.

Tip, use B stick, spam down on it. If you fail with down b its because your crouching, spam more B and less down.
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
NNID
Raziek
3DS FC
3866-8131-5247
What direction do the geysers send you?

Really nice, job man. I can see this being very useful. I'll try to start playing on it more and hopefully throw in an opinion.
The geysers send you horizontally, I'll add that in on my next update.
 

swordgard

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
5,531
Location
Canada
Tip, use B stick, spam down on it. If you fail with down b its because your crouching, spam more B and less down.

Works very well inside laval walls and floors, i can stall inside both.

This can be done on everything btw.
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
NNID
Raziek
3DS FC
3866-8131-5247
Ok, so counter-stalling is impractical, and very error-prone, so I'm not sure if it has much usage, but I will make a note of it. I can't get more than 2 counters inside the wall, and I've yet to successfully stall an entire geyser yet.

Edit: Will test with b-sticking, though if you have to b-stick to do it, it's even more impractical. xD
 

swordgard

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
5,531
Location
Canada
Ok, so counter-stalling is impractical, and very error-prone, so I'm not sure if it has much usage, but I will make a note of it. I can't get more than 2 counters inside the wall, and I've yet to successfully stall an entire geyser yet.

Edit: Will test with b-sticking, though if you have to b-stick to do it, it's even more impractical. xD
C-sticking is useless if you got fast hands XD. You can also just learn to time it, its not that hard. With bstick i can do it infinitely, normally i can stall inside the lava wall for the whole period too, messed up 1/3 lava wall.
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
NNID
Raziek
3DS FC
3866-8131-5247
C-sticking is useless if you got fast hands XD. You can also just learn to time it, its not that hard. With bstick i can do it infinitely, normally i can stall inside the lava wall for the whole period too, messed up 1/3 lava wall.
My b-stick is making me jump for some reason. :dizzy:
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
NNID
Raziek
3DS FC
3866-8131-5247
Ok, I got the timing down using regular counter, stalled an entire wall. Still, it doesn't seem all that PRACTICAL, considering the risks involved if you make a mistake, and the fact that you should be using those transitions to rack damage, not to stall.

Edit: Especially since you're DI'ing down if you use regular counter, or restricting your usage of c-stick aerials otherwise. I'll add a small section on it, but I don't think it's very practical in the long run. Useful in a tight spot, maybe, but this is no planking. xD
 

V

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
963
For MLG tournaments where should this rank in our list of CP stages?
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
NNID
Raziek
3DS FC
3866-8131-5247
This is the MLG stage list.

Battlefield
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Final Destination
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium
Smashville
Yoshi’s Island
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Green Greens
Norfair
Pictochat
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise

This is how I would rank our stages at MLG, from Best to Worst (This is mostly opinion)

Battlefield
Brinstar (Not against MK)
Norfair (Not against MK)
Lylat Cruise
Delfino
Castle Siege
Halberd
Orpheon
Smashville
Pictochat
Yoshi's Island Brawl
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium
Green Greens (This one is a high risk, high reward stage)
Rainbow Cruise
Stadium 2 (This stage has some really, really dumb transitions, I personally can't stand it)

Personally, I think that Norfair is one of our best stages, and it has gone long over-looked by most Marths. Hopefully this guide can change that. :D

I think it's also worth noting that this list can vary depending on how well your opponent knows certain stages. BF is our safe, reliable counter-pick, but I feel that stages like Brinstar and Norfair can be better than BF if your opponent does not know them, and does not play MK.
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
NNID
Raziek
3DS FC
3866-8131-5247
Wow@rc being so low

It's top 5 imo
Well, I DID indicate that my list was mostly opinion. RC does have its merits, but I dislike it, and there aren't a ton of characters I would CP it against. (Probably ICs, maybe some random unviable characters)
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
NNID
Raziek
3DS FC
3866-8131-5247
Apologies for the double post, however I have updated the OP with a new instructional video on the AT Swordgard and I have discussed in this topic, which I have dubbed COUNTER STALLING. (It's a double pun :D)
 

zer0.

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 28, 2009
Messages
75
Location
RJ/BR
Very nice stuff, looking forward to the updates.

I'm very surprised with the amount of info here, it kinda makes me wonder how much I don't know about other stages.

So, if isn't asking too much, I would appriciate so much if someone does something like this for brainstar. *looks at shaya*
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
NNID
Raziek
3DS FC
3866-8131-5247
Very nice stuff, looking forward to the updates.

I'm very surprised with the amount of info here, it kinda makes me wonder how much I don't know about other stages.

So, if isn't asking too much, I would appriciate so much if someone does something like this for brainstar. *looks at shaya*
I'm actually planning on tackling Brinstar after Norfair. :chuckle:

It's my second favorite stage.
 

Admiral Pit

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Messages
8,722
Location
Skyworld
NNID
GoldAngelPit
3DS FC
0903-2895-3694
All this for one stage? This is most amazing. Just to let you know that this is a very good place for Pit (except against Bowser and Link mostly, since they live longer, and gimping them isn't as easy).

In fact, a Pit can use this place to improve his camping capabilities, and is a possible CP against Falco, ICs, Dedede, Diddy, and Snake. Perhaps Marth can use the stage against those guys too. I hope I can help out a bit more using my view of this stage as a Pit user. Who knows? It can probably help out.
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
NNID
Raziek
3DS FC
3866-8131-5247
All this for one stage? This is most amazing. Just to let you know that this is a very good place for Pit (except against Bowser and Link mostly, since they live longer, and gimping them isn't as easy).

In fact, a Pit can use this place to improve his camping capabilities, and is a possible CP against Falco, ICs, Dedede, Diddy, and Snake. Perhaps Marth can use the stage against those guys too. I hope I can help out a bit more using my view of this stage as a Pit user. Who knows? It can probably help out.
I'll be sure to contact you for your opinion on Marth vs. Pit here, when I do the match-up info.
 

-Cross-

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 12, 2008
Messages
777
Location
NJ
One of the best posts these boards have seen in a long time IMO, anyway are there going to be more stage posts like this? Or was this just a one-man show?
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
NNID
Raziek
3DS FC
3866-8131-5247
One of the best posts these boards have seen in a long time IMO, anyway are there going to be more stage posts like this? Or was this just a one-man show?
You should probably read the post a bit above this one. I'm going after Brinstar next. :D
 

Player-3

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Messages
8,994
Location
Georgia
Rc isnt random

It happens wuth the timer

>_> i cp it agaisnt all chars not mk/rob/d3/wario

SOMETIMES gnw if the person foesn't know the stage
 

Remzi

formerly VaBengal
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
3,398
Location
Fairfax, VA
NNID
Remziz4
3DS FC
0302-1081-8167
great thread man.

to shaya/raziek:

i'm pretty sure dair doesn't have any autocancel frames. isn't the animation just ending right before landing?
 

-Cross-

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 12, 2008
Messages
777
Location
NJ
You should probably read the post a bit above this one. I'm going after Brinstar next. :D
But nobody else is helping you with these stage threads then? Well I guess if you are alright with that then, there is no problem. Props to your dedication.
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
NNID
Raziek
3DS FC
3866-8131-5247
But nobody else is helping you with these stage threads then? Well I guess if you are alright with that then, there is no problem. Props to your dedication.
Well, people are welcome to tackle others if they want, but I call dibs on Brinstar. :p
 

clowsui

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
10,185
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
i feel as though norfair is NOT that great for marth because it removes a lot of his edgeguarding possibilities

you have to make so many more reads on this stage to get the same result that you would on say BF or brinstar
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
NNID
Raziek
3DS FC
3866-8131-5247
i feel as though norfair is NOT that great for marth because it removes a lot of his edgeguarding possibilities

you have to make so many more reads on this stage to get the same result that you would on say BF or brinstar
I suppose that's a fair point. However, I find myself pseudo-edge-guarding just by forcing them to stay on the outer perimeter of the stage.

I also prefer the fact that most of the fighting will be done in air-to-air combat, which lets Marth have the advantage over other characters that he normally wouldn't. Like Snake, for example. usually we're forced to fight Snake while he's on the ground, but on Norfair you can force him to spend a lot of time on the ledges and in the air.
 

Player-3

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Messages
8,994
Location
Georgia
i don't have the drive to create a thread


counter stalling.... is amazing

like.. wow lol




edgeguarding on norfair is kind of stupid... but you can abuse footstooling and lava alot more on it so it evens out i guess
 

Remzi

formerly VaBengal
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
3,398
Location
Fairfax, VA
NNID
Remziz4
3DS FC
0302-1081-8167
Really Shaya? Does that mean it's possible to ff a dair at a certain point in my jump and have it autocancel? Do you know which frame it is? I could see that being somewhat useful in situations other than platforms if mastered.

*EDIT: Another cool norfair trick you might wanna add. If you have a higher port than the other person (i.e you are p4 and the other guy is p1), when the huge lava wave comes (the one where the hut appears) try to get the grab. It kills pretty early and you won't eat any knockback, but you'll take 16%. Definitely worth it in most cases. If it doesn't kill your opponent it'll bring him to the top and put him in a bad position which you can abuse.
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
BRoomer
Rankings Team
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
27,658
Location
/人◕‿‿◕人\ FABULOUS Max!
NNID
ShayaJP
If you buffer a full hop rising dair, and fast fall as soon as possible, I believe it will autocancel.

But you would -never- ever want to fast fall a dair unless it's a guaranteed hit.

My last "big frame data post" in steel's frame data thread showed the auto cancel frames for each of marth's aerials.
 

Remzi

formerly VaBengal
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
3,398
Location
Fairfax, VA
NNID
Remziz4
3DS FC
0302-1081-8167
Ah ok, I was hoping there might be a way to autocancel it while the hitbox was still out. That would be amazing.
 
Top Bottom