Last minute thoughts before we go 'live'

[goodoldganon]

It's really late but after a decent night of Smash and messing around I have a few questions and comments on the recent set before going live. I'll be posting my thoughts around 10:30 est if you guys can hold of that long for me. Thanks.

 

[goodoldganon]

I guess I'll double post so people know I have posted my thoughts. I'll just go character by character.

C. Falcon: I love him so much. Everything about him feels so much more fluid. I like the new knee and it seems a lot more polished.

My first problem is Falco. I am no Falco main, just a casual Star Fox character fanboy. The SHL seems like a pretty large change to his game and frankly a pretty large nerf. Maybe I was doing it wrong but the FF seemed useless. It didn't feel anything like the SHL from Melee (which I assume we are trying to replicate) Basically I just gave up on Fast Falling lasers and instead just waited the half a second after I jumped and then laser'd so I could hit any average height character.

What does the neutral b change do for Game and Watch?

I like the more polished Dorf. No U-tilt is great and the Wiz Kick seems less spammabl and safe. It's still a truck and a worthy move, just not something I can throw out. The grab range on side-b is subtle but Dorf mains will eat it up. Lastly I love the new D-throw, I just need to break my combo habits from the old one.

Ike felt a lot more solid with the better d-tilt and f-tilt.

D3s trip helps his ground game a lot.

Kirby's b-air nerf seems kinda large but frankly the move was too good. It might need polishing.

I liked Link's 'semi' JC u-tilt. With the IASA frames. I'm glad that all the tether characters got their grabs speeds adjusted.

Marth is so much more fun then he ever was at the start of Brawl+. I love how it's just not camp f-air all day.

Meta Knight really isn't even fun to play anymore. The hitlag makes him a chore to play as and just makes everything feel slow and sluggish. The f-air also seemed like crap on a stick. Did he get a run speed nerf too? Overall I won't play MK anymore.

I don't like Sheik's new charging needles. I really never saw a problem with the old charging needles. Also, there is no glow when the needles are fully charged. I think that's a problem for people facing Sheik. Also, the transform animation seems really awkward. The reasoning behind it is solid and in the long run I think the new transform is better, but it's got a lot of odd graphical glitches. A short hop transform looks really stupid.

What's the point of the Homing Attack IASA? We couldn't find a legit uses for that change.

EDIT: Ok here is what is wrong with Snake's new tilts now that I got time to play as him. First off the size change is massive to anyone that has played as or against Snake for more than 2 minutes. I find it laughable that you guys can say the change isn't that major and still keep a straight face.

These changes not only hurt his camping game they also remove his two pokes. Snake has virtually no way to poke shield's effectively anymore. DK has F-tilt, Wolf has B-air, Samus has Z-air, but Snake really doesn't have anything to poke at shields. Despite the ridiculous range on his old tilts he needed that range to ever poke at a shield.

Now, even at max range, any character faster than Link can punish Snake on a blocked tilt. And as I've said, Snake get's ragdolled when he's caught. If in the off chance you get a moment to shield you are still going to get punished by a half way decent opponent. My best bet was to spam spot dodge and that's going to get fixed soon (I assume.)

So now I'm left with a character who can't safely poke shields, can't really mount an offense or combo game, has a terribly predictable recovery and gets combo'd as hard as Falcon does. He just isn't fun to play and is a shell of his old self. I think it's funny you guys say he still has the best tilts but I'd rather have DK's tilts as well as a few other tilts.

So I implore you that we relook at the this change. If we are dead set on changing their range I'd like to not make the change so severe. If we want to keep his tilts the way they are then I have a few ideas to make Snake more fun to play as but I really don't want to rework Smash's most unique character.

Also, I'd appreciate it if people who didn't know how to play Snake would refrain from making the changes without consulting his mains. The changes you made to his tilts are laughable and make me realize none of you have ever learned the Snake matchup or how to play him.

Overall though I only had a few problems.

 

[Shell]

His d-tilt is a decent poke -- if you're really concerned about the loss of a poke, why not extend the range on the d-tilt by one unit and rework the cooldown a little instead of the recovery stuff we've mentioned?

It's speed isn't bad:
[0-5] startup
[6-9] Hit
[10-34] Cooldown

Here's Marth's D-tilt for comparison
[0-6] startup
[7-9] Hit
[10-21] Cooldown

Here are some pictures of the D-tilts range when standing and a shot of it hitting:
http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/3255/e446a6cce2aa522f.jpg
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/1148/b0f32952665e38f3.jpg

He only has his foot out for 6-9 (hit frames), so if you sped that bit up to only being out two frames, then shave off 4 addtional frames via IASA in combination with a one unit horizontal extension, you'd have a (too?) solid poke.

 

[GHNeko]

I think Snake's ftilt would of been better off if it didnt push so much so that it could keep its range, but couldnt be mindlessly spammed and remained unpunished majority of the time.

Link can punish it because he's a tether grabber. With buffering and proper timing, any tether character and D3 can punish ftilt with grabs.

I'd think that reducing the push on ftilt (and maybe utilt) when it's blocked would of been way more reasonable because it would require proper spacing to remain unpunishable to most characters, but retain the qualities that make it lolwtf.

So that in turn, if Snake decides that ftilt is his favorite move, you can make him space improperly and punish accordingly.

Maybe even add some wind down lag to the second ftilt by 1-3 frames to further encourage proper spacing/timing/prediction rather than mindless spam.

Push the IASA on Ftilt 1 into Ftilt 2 to increase the gap of time between the 2 ftilts but not Ftilt > Grab or Jab.

These are just some ideas on how to work with Snake's ftilt to reduce the "spam" factor.

...Or something like that. idk.

:V

 

[Shell]

While that's an interesting idea, I don't think we can change shield push directly / independently -- I was under the impression this is an effect of KBG and DMG.

 

[GHNeko]

*shrugs* I'm just tossing **** out there. I know some of those ideas are possible.

 

[shanus]

Or how about instead of nerfing his tilts range, we use multiple hitboxes and make the outer edges weaker.

 

[GHNeko]

Or how about instead of nerfing his tilts range, we use multiple hitboxes and make the outer edges weaker.

Which would work brilliant with my ideas no? Insides can get the damage but with less BKB/KBG for punishment purposes, and the outsides can get less damage but more BKB/KBG for its original and intended purposes.

:V

 

[JCaesar]

Or how about instead of nerfing his tilts range, we use multiple hitboxes and make the outer edges weaker.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

 

[GHNeko]

I forgot that we could turn one hitbox into multiple hitboxes.

Why dont we use this to make things less stupid lmao.

 

[leafgreen386]

I forgot that we could turn one hitbox into multiple hitboxes.

Why dont we use this to make things less stupid lmao.

That's a good question!

 

[GHNeko]

I smell a revamp.

 

[goodoldganon]

Or how about instead of nerfing his tilts range, we use multiple hitboxes and make the outer edges weaker.

My vote for a tilt nerf. Leave the current range at the same power. Return the orignal size at a significant weaker attack but still a decent poke.

 

[Revven]

Or how about instead of nerfing his tilts range, we use multiple hitboxes and make the outer edges weaker.

Sounds alright to me, I was able to deal with Snake before, though Ftilt is the tilt I always have trouble with, not really Utilt. (Then again, I use DK so I have a really decent ground game).

 

[Yeroc]

Ok, after discussing this with leaf smk and Viet in the IRC, I would like to also vote for instituting the weak hit range extension, but just for ftilt. For utilt, I would suggest leaving range as is, transforming the outermost edge to a slightly weaker, slightly outward sending hit, and then buffing the top boot hitbox to vBrawl scariness and kill levels.

How does that sound gog?

 

[leafgreen386]

Or how about instead of nerfing his tilts range, we use multiple hitboxes and make the outer edges weaker.

So yeah... let's do this.

Ftilt gets three hit ranges imo.
Utilt gets four:
1) his leg, itself, with increased kb to kill at vbrawl percents
2) right in front of him with its current kb
3) a little further forward with reduced kb (sends at a slightly lower angle)
4) the edge of the range with drastically reduced kb (sends at a slightly lower angle)

The lower angle prevents utilt -> utilt stuff from working, which would just be gay otherwise.

 

[Yeroc]

Since I don't think I'll be around much tomorrow, I'll post the stuff everybody's been trying to get off me in the IRC here so it can be added this weekend.

Sheik and ZSS pacs

The data to be changed for ZSS is:

18318066 3F800000
180D8066 40000000

181C0034 3FF00000
18220036 3FAAAAAA
181C0038 3FA00000
180F0038 3F800000
18000038 3FC00000

 

[The Cape]

Well the other snakes that I have played had no problems with the new tilt ranges and still put up a wall of mortars, grenades, nikitas, C4s and the like that made Snake a monster to approach. The tilt range was just silly and really should stay at its current range.

One of my other opinions on it is that I have played Phil and MuBa but I have never played or seen GoG play. Had a change the other week but he never showed. So honestly we cant really know if he is just a bad player that relies on the range of those tilts or if he genuinely is a good player. Thats something that will always sit with me and I would like to keep the tilts as is so we dont have a not so good player making decisions on something that makes them crazy (*cough* Simna *cough*)

Now again, this isnt saying GoG is bad or whatever, just no one has ever seen him play.

 

[VietGeek]

I'm confused...do you want the tilt range reduction or not? o_o

See I thought you wanted tilts 'as is' as in your changes.

But then I read your post in the Gold Characters thread and now I'm very confused. =(

 

[The Cape]

Got some Pit finalizations posted in the Pit thread.

Wrote up my thoughts for MK in his thread (I really hate how he works now).

Jiggs rest should be reverted as well.

Bowser:
UpB mobility that has been worked on?
Remove upB hard landing speed up and put in an IASA window for dash on the landing frames pre bounce?
Super armor on crouch (not just crawl)

Kirby fire breaths (Charizard and Bowser); Kirby Bullet seed; Kirby ZSS blaster need to be more similar to the originals as they have been changed now IMO

Need to put in the Wario damage nerfs that SMK put together and the coin pummel (Shell)
Wario 12% Heavy Armor F smash (great change, lets try it)

Sidesteps, rolls, ceiling/wall techs, and ledge stuff (jumps, stands, and rolls are too slow for the pace of the game)

Also, Kaotical twice managed to use Yoshi's neutral B on a landing opponent. This made the move cancel and he got a free jab. Any chance we can put a 2 frame IASA window on that move for when Yoshi grabs them that can cancel before they go inside him?

Do Mario and Squirtle down and neutral Bs still have growth? Growth does not effect them as growth is coupled with damage. Might look at these again for a bit more base and no growth?

Snake and Sonic: When grabbed and then released they do not get back their jump or upB but everyone else does. Sonic can sideB to the stage and Snake can C4, but do we want to look at this at all?

Snake:
Fair IASA for jump or upB
or
upB IASA for AD five frames after cypher grab

Diddy:
Explosion animation speedup

With current tilt nerfs Snake is great.

Other than that I think we have a solid set.

Things to do as we can:
Remove auto snap from side Bs and Lucario upB

Fix Pikmin Ghosting Bug (This could even be a "set patch" once we fix it)
- PSA to speed up Pikmin?

Fix Nana
- Affected by codes

Walljumping fix
- Walljump anywhere, remove pressing towards wall and jump to wall jump

Footstooling fixes
- Meteor cancel window and command input

Pokemon Weaknesses remove


Also:

Yea for Planking:
http://allisbrawl.com/video/video.aspx?id=21511&gr_i_ni


Falcon and Ganon upBs:

I would like to see one do 12 damage and one do 17 damage then have the 12 damage one have more KO power and the 17 have less. Seems to be a good way to differenciate the characters a bit more if we so desire.


Gurukid says:
+3 winddown frames to squirtle uair as well as the KB nerf

 

[The Cape]

@SMK:

Wario Bite toss is a throw hitbox, just use the throw modifier to fix it:

Wario
Bite: 15053C46 0000002D

Also, Wario F smash heavy armor. Its a good idea.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Since you mentioned it in this thread, I'm working on both transforms right now to appeal better graphically with the new slowdown.