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Kuja's (In)Complete Guide to Making Sonic an annoying ___!

BDawgPHD

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 1, 2007
Messages
751
The actual windup lag of the uncharged fsmash is roughly the same or longer than Mario's fsmash, and the animation is clear as day and easy to see coming. Also, everything I said about its effectiveness due to opposing approaches stands, until someone points out why I'm wrong ;) but I usually go out and edgeguard since Sonic can do that, and it puts pressure on people. Also most people try to sweetspot the ledge anyway.
 

messiahfreak2000

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by the way, has anyone noticed that with sonic's side b, it can shoot straight up at the start of it? i was fighting my bro and i pushed up right as i launched it (or while charging) and the spin dash shot straight up. forgive me if this is already known but i thought it may prove somewhat useful.
 

TwinkleToes

Smash Lord
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Messiah, if you practice spin shotting you're going to do that a lot on accident. Although, I haven't tried attacking anyone with it yet and I'm not sure how the invulnerability property is affected by it so it may or may not prove more useful.

The only times I've been able to play the Wii this week I haven't been able to test anything because I was playing free for alls but next Monday I'll definitely be testing a lot of things.
 

memphischains

Smash hhkj'
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will someone just freakn explain how lucky does that edge thing. I tried for a while yesterday to figure it out but I CANT. HELP... ME... STOP... IGNORING...
 

LuCKy

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ummm go check my sonic tech vid ^_^

but you have to do a half circle backwards the second you walk or run off the edge
 

TheMagicalKuja

Smash Champion
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Saw it, saw it was nice. Should I (or rather can I) add it to this thread?

Added a blurb from Aprili

Also that Lucas pwn was so epic, Sonic got top tier for all of five seconds
 

messiahfreak2000

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Messiah, if you practice spin shotting you're going to do that a lot on accident. Although, I haven't tried attacking anyone with it yet and I'm not sure how the invulnerability property is affected by it so it may or may not prove more useful.

The only times I've been able to play the Wii this week I haven't been able to test anything because I was playing free for alls but next Monday I'll definitely be testing a lot of things.
it satarted out as a accident but now i do it on purpose to fake out my opponent. thats the only benefit i have found from so far is tricking my opponent into rushing me like that and following with a dair (or any aerial). plus it could prove useful for edge guarding (emphasis on "could"). i'm going to be testing its usefulness more.
 

R4ZE

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by the way, has anyone noticed that with sonic's side b, it can shoot straight up at the start of it? i was fighting my bro and i pushed up right as i launched it (or while charging) and the spin dash shot straight up. forgive me if this is already known but i thought it may prove somewhat useful.


ya i found this out early on as well. When you use the side b on the ground(whether u go up or side ways, it deals damage to nearby opponents) as far as i can tell, it doesent deal damage in the airial spin when u do the straight up spin jump tho. it almost has the properties of a normal jump with a different image.

I used it to confuse people: I stop, press over b(away from the opponent) so im in an airial spin facing away from them, and it makes it easy to hit them with an unexpected back air. its a good killer if the opponents have high damage. the spin animation makes it hard to see which way sonic is facing, so really u could suprise them either way.

Most people right now are just confused by sonic doing a jump liek that at all though.
 

R4ZE

Smash Ace
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ya, its a little harder to do with down B. Is there any difference in it with Down B anyway???

I've neevr really tested that.
 

messiahfreak2000

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not that i know of. in terms of performing it it though, its the same. just push the jump button as the spin dash is charging.
 

R4ZE

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well i think there is a possible difference. because i know when u release >B it deals damage to enemies that are behind u(next to you)

so... i hypothisisee that when u do the jump with >B u can hit people with the initial jump... while if u execute it with down B .... it would deal no damage at all by itself, but u could cancel into another attack.(you cna do that either way.. >B or down B)



oh ya.. can you short hop these spin jumps?
 

da K.I.D.

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i knew that but didnt think it to be any use so i didnt try to post it.

what i want to know is what has everyone had the most luck edge guarding with
 

da K.I.D.

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but one thing that i did think ppl should know if they dont already is the laggy dash as i call it. did you know that the end of sonics dash takes forever

so you can run up to a sheilding opponent and come to what everyone thinks is a standing position and than he tryies to attack and you hit him with the dash attack. its not much but whatevr gets the mind games done... y'know?
 

memphischains

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add that at relatively high percentages that if you do a down throw next to the edge (faceing away from the level) your opponent goes at a downward angle, this sets up nicely for edge combos. and, i have found that if you connect with a nair they can't make it back with the edge, so theres a legit purpose for the nair.
 

R4ZE

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ya the nair has less knockback then the fair, so realisticly it would be better for combos right???

you cant ledge gaurd with the spin dash jump. there are some frams while rising that deal damage though. but on ascent i dont think it deals damage

BUT the main reason you cant ladge gaurd with it is because: when u get back to the althitude that u started the spin dash jump, you come out of the spin.

its kinda a rediculous idea anyway since u cant short hop the spin dash jump when u go str8 up.



i think a better ledge gaurd would be: >B towards the ledge, off it. when u leave the edge u get a lot of control and you can move in a crescent (hook shape) around the edge as your falling, and then you cna always cancel the spin into an aria, and plus it would make it easy to drop springs on recoving people... of course your action would all depend on the timing and where you enemy is in relation to you.
 

Shadow5YA

Smash Cadet
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Feb 24, 2008
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Can anyone check the amount of invincibility frames Sonic has when he grabs the ledge? I think he may have more than most of the others.
 

Marie_54

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I don't want to sound like miss obvious, but maybe you should add that, after the first bit of the spin dash/charge, Sonic can only jump/spring jump when he makes a noise. It could be useful for those who haven't noticed.
 

LuCKy

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I don't want to sound like miss obvious, but maybe you should add that, after the first bit of the spin dash/charge, Sonic can only jump/spring jump when he makes a noise. It could be useful for those who haven't noticed.
wow one of the coolest avatar's i have ever seen.....*thumbs up* haha

-edit anyone know how have my sig as a link? like where i can click my sig/pic and it will link me to my vid thread?
 

Terios the Hedgehog

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wow one of the coolest avatar's i have ever seen.....*thumbs up* haha

-edit anyone know how have my sig as a link? like where i can click my sig/pic and it will link me to my vid thread?
Not entirely sure but you should be able to put in [ URL="http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=153092" ]your sig here image tags and all [ /URL ]

But without the spaces around the brackets.
 

The_Dyne

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Awesome guide! I am really hoping to improve my Sonic game, and this will be a great help.
 
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Sonic Down B

While there's several threads about Sonic's usefulness, the properties of his attacks, I figured this would be best in the fact that I could gather useful tactics, play victories, and other things. As well, I could drive home several points about Sonic that many players just don't seem to get. Anyway, let's begin.

FAQ:

Why are you making this?

I'm making this largely because Sonic's playstyle is viciously misunderstood. People play him like a combo ******* correctly, but when it comes time to actually KO the opponent, they always screw up. Also they really don't properly utilize Sonic's moves.

But Sonic doesn't have any killing moves!

THAT'S NOT THE ****ING POINT OF SONIC.

Sonic has no kill moves, so what? He's got bigger problems than that, like no priority, and what little power moves he has being unreliable and tough to connect with. But why are you relying on those moves in the way you are? To put it simply like HugS did in the general area: ATTENTION: WE *ALL* SUCK AT SONIC. (This goes for me too. Yes, I also suck at Sonic, but that doesn't mean I can't recognize good strategies when I see one.)

So if we all suck as Sonic, O wise and snarky Kuja, what's the point then?

To show viable strategies so we suck LESS. And now with the miniFAQ out the way let's get to the meat of this post.

First, let's talk general strategy.

Sonic's fast. **** fast, if you don't already know. Let's get the Captain Obvious **** out of the way and say use that speed to your advantage. Smack your foes, then chase them and smack 'em again! Or better yet space yourself and make yourself hard to counter, predict, and hit! WOW, so obvious! Yet I see little use of that, most people tend to spam running rolls, an attack or two, and then wait for the opponent to recover and try again. Doesn't work with Sonic--he needs to keep his foes frustrated or on their toes, otherwise they will easily evade his attacks. As well, you should take advantage of a foe's lag frames and run in for the attack, something I rarely see yet, but will likely get better with time. The second and bigger thing, however, is that the air game has changed. No longer is the ridiculous gravity from Melee around to make air battles unsafe for all not named Jigglypuff/Peach, many characters can stick to the sky and fight well. Sonic is one such character, and I don't see enough people using it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ihP_E8aeamU

Look at this video someone found (I did not make it, and I'm not the first to post it.). A level 9 computer, yes, but it's a good showcase of all of Sonic's strengths, and as well as proper useage of some of Sonic's attacks. Notice how Sonic used his homing attack to gimp DK's recovery instead of spamming it as a direct attack. This isn't as effective on human foes who float well, but it's nice to have a surprise gimp! However, the homing attack works better in certain situations I'll detail later.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QO-Sj-RYBJc&feature=related

This is a showcase of what NOT to do with Sonic. Ike's recovery isn't that hot, but Sonic NEVER took advantage of it. At one point in the video, Sonic knocks Ike out pretty far and taunts. He simply let Ike back in instead of intercepting, like he should have. There are other times where he decides to spam his power moves. They're going to fail against Ike. DON'T BLOODY TRY IT. Don't spam his unreliable smashes to KO your foes.

So what exactly should you use Sonic's smashes for?

The forward is best used as a surprise attack. Use it when your foe will least expect it. Don't try to connect with it for a finishing touch, whip it out when your foe can't see it coming (inb4that'swhatshesaid)

Some recent discoveries, however, have made the Fsmash perhaps more useable. A technique called Stutter-stepping, involving tapping back at a standstill/walk before quickly c-sticking a forward smash, can extend the range of this move and make it actually useable in an offensive manner. InterimofZeal states he can even outdistance Marth with it, verification pending. As far as I've played, it extends Sonic a little bit and is great for clipping troublesome foes, but I haven't gone really far with it. It is fairly practical in tourney play, since now you can actually use it as a kill move instead of praying it works as a surprise.

The down? Get everyone out of Sonic's grill.

The up? perhaps the only one that can be used as an offensive move, especially since you can run and up smash.

EDIT: This video shows nice techniques.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=kvWcPzbCsDU

Thank bugball, and please don't mind the terrible spelling.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=qTzWHFKdJNI

InterimofZeal's, in his opinion, best Sonic video. cleaning Dedede was epic to watch. Spacing game with Sonic is really good here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSmWMVwMgRg#

This last video is here, one of the earlier showcases of Sonic. It shows both sides of the coin (How sonic did better when he gimped CF instead of trying to outpower him)

Part Deux: Weaknesses you must shield from

So yeah, we have of course the BAAAAWWWW NO KILL MOVES BAAAWWW crap out of the way. But we've got other pressing matters as I've said above. I will not sugar coat. Sonic is not going to rule the tiers, largely because of poor priority. What does this mean? Sonic's hitboxes are small compared to the rest of his body and most other smasher's attacks, which means he can get overwhelmed by any wisely timed or predicted attack. I imagined that was implemented so Sonic doesn't pull a Fox and rule Brawl with ZOMG LIGHTNING SPEED BUTTONS but that speculation is kinda irrelevant to this topic. What does this mean? In any case as of right now if Sonic is predictable in any shape or form he will get owned. Someone else put this in a much better light than I could.




Secondly many of his moves are situational. They are epic in said situations but appear (and likely are) useless otherwise. You could likely take advantage of many Sonic noobs by countering his homing attack or hitting him out of his spin dash, or know that Sonic's running dash is by far his most predictable move. He's always going to use it, even if it's not particularly powerful or useful. Try and avoid using it too often if you can.

Third Part: The Homing Attack.

This strange move looks unwieldy at first, and there are so many things about it I decided to give it its own section.

For the Homing attack, I've found its best use is lag punishment. What does that mean? Predict when your foe will use a lagging attack, then bash them with this. It's especially effective if you need to get by projectile spam or trying to gimp their recovery. Yo Also you can fake out your foes into thinking you will use other attacks, then strike with this one, likely very vital for making the homing gimp actually work (InterimofZeal reports it's not easy to hit a human with). Spamming it regularly however, is grounds for leaving yourself open to attack. Press B twice to cut the amount of charging lag on Sonic's homing attack in half!

ShadowSYA's observations:



I've tried it out and found his assessment is good.

Another thing to note is that you'll have greater success with this move when catching an opponent during their second jump. Pressure them into it if you can.

Or to put it in context (only because it's funny):

*DK gets knocked off the stage*

Sakurai: YOU MUST RECOVER--

Sonic: ***** no you can't lawl

*DK gets homing attacked by Sonic*

Rule the Fourth? THERE IS NO RULE THE FOURTH!

Part the Fifth: Other Special Moves.

We all know they look alike, we all know with a casual eye, it sucks. But that's before you learn how to use them properly.

The Spin Dashes look alike but are hardly worth anything for a KO, they're combo starters. Use them that way. If you need to recover, you can Forward b as well, though don't use it AFTER the second jump or you're stunned into it. Also note that you can help Sonic's poor horizontal air speed with this move, but beware of using your second jump.

A proper video by acidictadpole shows how Spindash chasing works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l84c2oHG-5M

It will help gimps massively.

Spring Jump should be used as an escape tactic as well as recovery. Got a Ganon on your tail? Up b out of the way, then dair back to Ganon's ugly noggin, but don't spam the dair as it's a highly predictable move. You can also use it to chase foes out and finish your air combos.

Note: lrn2dodge.

I will strengthen this compedium as better strategies evolve. So I ask you... PLEASE, suck less with Sonic and stop trying to make KO moves with unreliable attacks and use his actual strengths.

Oh, and one last thing:

Side Taunt: Spam it.

Nothing will be more grating than to hear Sonic's American voice shout "YOU'RE TOO SLOW YOU'RE TOO SLOW" over and over again. It's the best thing to anger your foe or interrupt Link/Zelda make out sessions. SPAM IT. And even if you're not playing that version or too weeaboo for it, the running taunt just looks too **** cool. USE IT DAMMIT.

Edits:
(2/18/08) Went over current weaknesses
(2/20/08) Added InterimofZeal's video and some facts about the homing attack
(2/26/08) Added ShadowSYA's homing attack observations
(2/28/08) Added stutter step to Sonic's fsmash data
(3/1/08) Added some stuff on stutter step and the homing attack
(3/7/08) Mother****ing stickied! WOO
(3/10/08) Added some small notes in bold.
(3/14/08) Added Spindash chasing (note NOT any sort of official name)
(3/17/08) Separated Homing attack from its brethren and added a new note.
(3/19/08) Added a blurb about predictability from Aprili
Use Sonics Down B move to stop opponets from recovering in mid air use it to stun them and homing then stop the homing at the last second for a suprize down smash :bee:
 

Kel

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 24, 2007
Messages
4,605
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Cincinnati, Ohio
When I want Sonic to become Sonic the Ledgehog I ROLL to the desired ledge and then slightly tilt the stick towards the edge. The problem is that Sonic is too fast. So you've got two options:
One, is dropping off the edge and fast falling it and releasing in a frame-specific manner.
Two, is rolling to the edge (when you have time to do so) and simply walking off the edge very easily. This tactic isn't as fast but it's more reliable.
 

TrueSonic

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
2
thank u for that post very nice shows ppl that sonic is not that bad and i give u two thumbs up for that last part of the post "the running taunt just looks too **** cool. USE IT DAMMIT."........and i attend to use it every kill lol.
 

messiahfreak2000

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not sure if anyone has done this yet but it could prove useful in the right situation. i was fighting my bro on Rainbow Cruise and backed him up against a wall. i then proceeded to attack him with the standard A combo. then i did it again. it kept him there till the ship reached the end of the cruise. i believe this can be done on any level with some form of wall. very situational (apologies if this was already known but i believe should be added to any sonic strategy, its possible to set up).

edit: apparently, it only works to certain percentages before the knockback of the attack knocks the opponent away and can't be started till the opponent is at around 15-20 percent.
 

Dragonbreath

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 18, 2007
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881
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Big, spooky castle in eastern europe.
not sure if anyone has done this yet but it could prove useful in the right situation. i was fighting my bro on Rainbow Cruise and backed him up against a wall. i then proceeded to attack him with the standard A combo. then i did it again. it kept him there till the ship reached the end of the cruise. i believe this can be done on any level with some form of wall. very situational (apologies if this was already known but i believe should be added to any sonic strategy, its possible to set up).

edit: apparently, it only works to certain percentages before the knockback of the attack knocks the opponent away and can't be started till the opponent is at around 15-20 percent.
Yeah...I don't think there's any character that can't do that to some extent.

I still find it strange that Sonic doesn't have a rapid attack.
 

Mizar

Smash Ace
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Mar 10, 2008
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Netherlands
I already made a thread about I guess I'll tell here too. Try tapping your control stick once to any direction. when sonic stands still after you run you'll see a stopping animation that lasts for quite a while. In that whole animation you can still use your dash attacks. Like, run, stop, dash attack. This is good for mindgaming imo.
 

RenegadeRaven

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 9, 2006
Messages
595
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Tempe, AZ (Arizona State University)
Yeah...I don't think there's any character that can't do that to some extent.

I still find it strange that Sonic doesn't have a rapid attack.
I agree, I sometimes wonder what they were thinking when they were making him. He could even be spinning in a ball for all I care, I don't see why he doesn't have SOMETHING.

And his spin charge doesn't do damage to anyone near him... It irritates me... so much complaints... but what can you do eh? >_>
 

FuFu300

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 13, 2006
Messages
72
Location
Marietta, GA
I picked up Sonic today after reading this guide. He's really fun to playing simply for all the nostalgia, but I'm not a fan of the whole "Side Taunt as much as possible" notion because the only way I can play "competitively" is over Wi-Fi, and I don't want to seem like some cocky player to someone I don't even know. There's also the fact that I could lose with Sonic, and that it would make me seem like more of a fool if taunted all those times only to end up losing.

Lol, UpB to Uair is priceless, though. Favorite thing to do with Sonic, but I do it sparingly enough where my opponent doesn't expect it all the time.
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
Joined
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I already made a thread about I guess I'll tell here too. Try tapping your control stick once to any direction. when sonic stands still after you run you'll see a stopping animation that lasts for quite a while. In that whole animation you can still use your dash attacks. Like, run, stop, dash attack. This is good for mindgaming imo.
i touched on this earlier, and i dont know if it stuck, but i coined this as the laggy dash
 
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