InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Technically, there's already a term for it, and has been since SSBM. Stickywalking, of a sort.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Kuja's (In)Complete Guide to Making Sonic an annoying ___!
- Thread starter TheMagicalKuja
- Start date
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
ok, thats fine by me. all that matter is that i can use it to beat on you guys.
I found something interesting on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8b9WsiuwWs
(Credit goes to fabiobiancarelli, since it's his youtube video)
Sonic bounces of any surface he hits with the homing attack, so this guy takes advantage of that to infinitely bounce off the bottom of the stage (Battlefield and Final Destination). I've tested this out myself as well. Because Battlefield and Final Destination aren't relatively large/thick, any opponent still on the stage is still locked on by Sonic's homing attack at the bottom of Battlefield/Final Destination. This can has two possible uses:
1.) Stalling, like what the video description says. In 3 or 4 player brawls, this can be a way to back off and let your opponents do some damage to each other. Since you're under the stage, most characters will be assuring a self-KO if they chase after you. The only character that I can think of with a good enough recovery is Pit (and maybe, maybe R.O.B and Pikachu).
2.) A safer recovery. Even in the original Super Smash Brothers game, anyone with a sense of logic will edgeguard an opponent that flies off the side. There's only one ledge a recovering player can grab, and the limited number of moves he/she can take makes recovering all the more predictable. With Sonic however, a player can avoid that danger zone around and above the ledge, by dropping below it and still make it back alive.
This does have its drawbacks, however. This move depends on the opponent still being on the stage. If they happen to jump high and out of the homing attack's range....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8b9WsiuwWs
(Credit goes to fabiobiancarelli, since it's his youtube video)
Sonic bounces of any surface he hits with the homing attack, so this guy takes advantage of that to infinitely bounce off the bottom of the stage (Battlefield and Final Destination). I've tested this out myself as well. Because Battlefield and Final Destination aren't relatively large/thick, any opponent still on the stage is still locked on by Sonic's homing attack at the bottom of Battlefield/Final Destination. This can has two possible uses:
1.) Stalling, like what the video description says. In 3 or 4 player brawls, this can be a way to back off and let your opponents do some damage to each other. Since you're under the stage, most characters will be assuring a self-KO if they chase after you. The only character that I can think of with a good enough recovery is Pit (and maybe, maybe R.O.B and Pikachu).
2.) A safer recovery. Even in the original Super Smash Brothers game, anyone with a sense of logic will edgeguard an opponent that flies off the side. There's only one ledge a recovering player can grab, and the limited number of moves he/she can take makes recovering all the more predictable. With Sonic however, a player can avoid that danger zone around and above the ledge, by dropping below it and still make it back alive.
This does have its drawbacks, however. This move depends on the opponent still being on the stage. If they happen to jump high and out of the homing attack's range....
TwinkleToes
Smash Lord
^You know, there's a thread with a lot of Sonic Moves/techs/glitches that you should really read before posting stuff like that.
YoungMoney702
Smash Cadet
nice guide
ima use some of these strategies so I could be a better sucky player with Sonic
ima use some of these strategies so I could be a better sucky player with Sonic
learntofly
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2008
- Messages
- 2
One of the things I like to do is the UpThrow, then the UpB->Bair. One of the things to note for it is its usefulness really starts to shine when the person is around 90%, because when you UpThrow and then UpB you and the other character will be at almost exactly parallel in the air.
I think I've star KO'd a few people doing this.
I think I've star KO'd a few people doing this.
Any opinions on juggling an opponent to 'magnifying glass' on the top of the screen --> Spring --> U-air?
the B-air version sounds interesting but U-air comes out quicker.
I try to use it alot, but apparently I keep going too far above or below my opponent :[
----SUPER EDIT----
alright, so I was frustrated with trying to get the U-air version to work and with DI, it's basically impossible to hit, so I messed around in training a bit, trying to figure out just how well the U-throw-->Spring-->B-air combo works. It is freaking amazing.
I chose a few characters to try to get an idea of how much to damage you'd need to get the person to fly up the correct height for the combo to hit. After the U-throw, there's still a tiny window where your opponent can dodge (but that's only if they air-dodge immediately), but the height should be perfect as long as your opponent is within 5% of the "sweet damage" that I'm about to list:
(keep in mind that training assumes that you have NO stale move effect, so assume that you never used B-air to damage anyone)
Light weights (MK, Pikachu... etc): 110%
Medium weights (Marth, Star Fox... etc): 120%
Upper-Medium weights (Snake, Ganondorf..etc): 130%
Heavy-weights (Ike, Dedede, Bowser...): 140%
hooray. i has a kill move.
the B-air version sounds interesting but U-air comes out quicker.
I try to use it alot, but apparently I keep going too far above or below my opponent :[
----SUPER EDIT----
alright, so I was frustrated with trying to get the U-air version to work and with DI, it's basically impossible to hit, so I messed around in training a bit, trying to figure out just how well the U-throw-->Spring-->B-air combo works. It is freaking amazing.
I chose a few characters to try to get an idea of how much to damage you'd need to get the person to fly up the correct height for the combo to hit. After the U-throw, there's still a tiny window where your opponent can dodge (but that's only if they air-dodge immediately), but the height should be perfect as long as your opponent is within 5% of the "sweet damage" that I'm about to list:
(keep in mind that training assumes that you have NO stale move effect, so assume that you never used B-air to damage anyone)
Light weights (MK, Pikachu... etc): 110%
Medium weights (Marth, Star Fox... etc): 120%
Upper-Medium weights (Snake, Ganondorf..etc): 130%
Heavy-weights (Ike, Dedede, Bowser...): 140%
hooray. i has a kill move.
Illussionary
Smash Journeyman
Great Guide I learned a ton.
TwinkleToes
Smash Lord
You should really only bair out of an up-throw if you're sure your opponent has DI'd too much for your uair to hit. It's a lot riskier to use it for a lot of reasons.
virtuososteve
Smash Apprentice
hey who's the best sonic user?
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
No one knows for sure. I'll attest that I'm not, due to me losing any match-up I don't know, at least the first time. I need more experience before I can claim it. I'd say Chu or Wes are prolly the best right now, seeing as they're both wicked creative, and that's what you need for the blur.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
.... me ... end of story
Just curious - since there are a lot of really good Brawl players here.
Anyone using this for anything or is this even slightly useful?
I use Sonic mostly so I have a lot of problem with spacing since his dash animation is so long.
What I do is: Tap forward twice very quickly and instead of getting the slide animation, he does the end of dash animation.
After he does the end of the dash animation, you can do everything - although with a bit of delay from the animation itself.
I also like to tap forward twice and shield right away since he'll cover a small distance while shielding, enabling me to sidestep or roll right away when I need to.
Anyone using this for anything or is this even slightly useful?
I use Sonic mostly so I have a lot of problem with spacing since his dash animation is so long.
What I do is: Tap forward twice very quickly and instead of getting the slide animation, he does the end of dash animation.
After he does the end of the dash animation, you can do everything - although with a bit of delay from the animation itself.
I also like to tap forward twice and shield right away since he'll cover a small distance while shielding, enabling me to sidestep or roll right away when I need to.
Bowser King
Have It Your Way
A thing I find great about sonic is that once facing pits use up right above him and watch as they plumit to there doom. Though I would consider this perdictable but not against people who dont know much on sonic.
Kyd
Smash Journeyman
use Sonic's UpB when above Ness or Lucas when they try to recover..... FAILURE.... love it.
Napilopez
Smash Lord
Or using upB to leaves Marths, Ikes, Marios, Luigis, Falcos and just about anyone else with a strinky recovery too far from the ledge to get back, or stuck under it in FD. Beautiful. It's hilarious especially against the psychic brats or falco losing that inch he needed to recover.
TheMagicalKuja
Smash Champion
I'm amazed that this thread is as popular as it is now. Thanks for all of your input, and I'm surprised I made this much impact.
Napilopez
Smash Lord
Thank you for such a great guide. Its especially helpful for us who do not have much experience in Smash at all. I've played smash since the original, yet I never played competitively or using advanced techs or anything. When I joined the smashboards is when I first even learned I could shorthop, LOL.
It is pretty funny/useful.
Your humor made me wanna try Sonic, and when I first started using him, I followed this 'guide' (lol, including the taunt spam) and beat my brother with it lolol.
Speaking of being an annoying _____, springs are amazing.
Using spring on a Ganondorf doing SH = lol
Using spring on a Metaknight doing rising tornado = lol
Dropping spring on a Wolf and doing lagless D-air to the side = lol
Dropping a spring on Ness/Lucas' PK thunder, making them fall to their death = lol
Dropping a spring in front of Ness/Lucas PKT2, slowing them down so they don't make it to the edge = lol
Your humor made me wanna try Sonic, and when I first started using him, I followed this 'guide' (lol, including the taunt spam) and beat my brother with it lolol.
Speaking of being an annoying _____, springs are amazing.
Using spring on a Ganondorf doing SH = lol
Using spring on a Metaknight doing rising tornado = lol
Dropping spring on a Wolf and doing lagless D-air to the side = lol
Dropping a spring on Ness/Lucas' PK thunder, making them fall to their death = lol
Dropping a spring in front of Ness/Lucas PKT2, slowing them down so they don't make it to the edge = lol
Sp3ed0fSoUnD
Smash Cadet
hey Kuja, I just wanna say im pretty good as Sonic, as I've been using him since Brawl came out. I can beat a lot of people, this being said, I still have a problem. I cant fight those who dodge TOO MUCH.. what moves/techniques would you suggest i do?
That question goes out to anyone thats good as Sonic as well.
That question goes out to anyone thats good as Sonic as well.
I think I've seen that "how do you fight someone who dodges alot" somewhere before...
Rolling: run after the roll and catch them at the end of it
Spot-dodging: D-smash, U-smash
Air-dodge: F-air
The answer that I saw someone else make was to use slower/longerlasting moves, like F-air since you'll have a better chance at catching them when they lose their dodge frames.
Bait them to attack, fake them out (eg: run>side-B shield cancel), mess with your own timing. If you're up against a human player and you do uncharged smashes often, then try charging them for once. See if there's a pattern- like if you're running toward them, are they going to roll towards you? If you knock them down, do they tend to roll behind you?
If you spring and they're above you with high %, you can pretty much guess that they'll dodge.
Anyway, movewise, F-air and U-smash are probably your better choices.
Rolling: run after the roll and catch them at the end of it
Spot-dodging: D-smash, U-smash
Air-dodge: F-air
The answer that I saw someone else make was to use slower/longerlasting moves, like F-air since you'll have a better chance at catching them when they lose their dodge frames.
Bait them to attack, fake them out (eg: run>side-B shield cancel), mess with your own timing. If you're up against a human player and you do uncharged smashes often, then try charging them for once. See if there's a pattern- like if you're running toward them, are they going to roll towards you? If you knock them down, do they tend to roll behind you?
If you spring and they're above you with high %, you can pretty much guess that they'll dodge.
Anyway, movewise, F-air and U-smash are probably your better choices.
Sp3ed0fSoUnD
Smash Cadet
Ok Tenki thanks a lot, I'll try that the next time I play Brawl. Thanks again for the help cuz im new to this site =)
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
my only question is this,
we all know that a big part of sonics game is hitting ppl while they are over the edge. its a fact.
now im pretty good at doing that, to the point were it works against me. my problem is that i run out and fair them and i think im DIing forward too far b/c it will have the opposite effect and the last hit will send thme to the middle of the stage, which can be a bother because now they are the ones edgeguarding me.
what should i do about this?
should i not be so agressive with the forward airs
should i learn to not DI during the fair so much
or should i just turn around and go for one of his other air moves?
we all know that a big part of sonics game is hitting ppl while they are over the edge. its a fact.
now im pretty good at doing that, to the point were it works against me. my problem is that i run out and fair them and i think im DIing forward too far b/c it will have the opposite effect and the last hit will send thme to the middle of the stage, which can be a bother because now they are the ones edgeguarding me.
what should i do about this?
should i not be so agressive with the forward airs
should i learn to not DI during the fair so much
or should i just turn around and go for one of his other air moves?
TwinkleToes
Smash Lord
^Get good at judging when a fair will probably work (sometimes it will send them behind you even if it seems completely illogical) and when it definitely won't. In the latter case you should just use nair which is MUCH easier to use as a gimp since all you need to do is be on the appropriate side of your enemy to send them away from the stage.
Napilopez
Smash Lord
I agree with Twinkletoes. If you are preocupied about not reaching your enemy with the Nair, then simply use a Spincharge or SpinDash hop, which will give you more distance. If your enemy is above you and coming in on the stage, then homing attack is usally viable as well.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
great thanks.... i would be able to figure this kind of stuff out myself but i only get to play the game like every friday night ( and saturdays if im lucky) so thanks for the help.....
also i heard about some dude named Mr. 3000 winning some high profile tourney, cna anyone get me the lowdown on that
also i heard about some dude named Mr. 3000 winning some high profile tourney, cna anyone get me the lowdown on that
Whether an fair sends the opponent forward or backward depends on what part of Sonic hits. When it's just Sonic's torso and head, the opponent will get sent forward. If Sonic's entire body is hitting, then chances are they will get sent backward.
The problem with the nair is that it has little range and priority, so the only way to use a nair properly without getting punished is to hit-and-run. This is where Sonic's little horizontal DI/momentum comes in. If Sonic moves forward too much while using the nair, he would be following the opponent since the nair has little to no knockback at lower percents, and he could get punished because the nair only hits once like Link's Spin Attack. With Sonic's little horizontal momentum, he can use the nair while falling and distance himself after the hit.
And Tenki, I disagree with you on using the dsmash as a counter for spot dodging.While it's true the dmash will hit, the damage and knockback is significantly smaller after the starting roll. There's a risk that you will get punished anyway, and I just don't think the damage exchange is worth it for Sonic.
A solution to someone avoiding a spring from above is to use it directly on them. If there's a noticable vertical distance between Sonic and the opponent, dropping a spring would be like Wile E. Coyote from Looney Tunes waiting for the anvil to fall on him, except that the victim isn't as stupid has Coyote. If Sonic positons himself directly above as if he was using a dair meteor(if only....), the opponent shouldn't be able to avoid the spring because of how fast it comes out.
The problem with the nair is that it has little range and priority, so the only way to use a nair properly without getting punished is to hit-and-run. This is where Sonic's little horizontal DI/momentum comes in. If Sonic moves forward too much while using the nair, he would be following the opponent since the nair has little to no knockback at lower percents, and he could get punished because the nair only hits once like Link's Spin Attack. With Sonic's little horizontal momentum, he can use the nair while falling and distance himself after the hit.
And Tenki, I disagree with you on using the dsmash as a counter for spot dodging.While it's true the dmash will hit, the damage and knockback is significantly smaller after the starting roll. There's a risk that you will get punished anyway, and I just don't think the damage exchange is worth it for Sonic.
A solution to someone avoiding a spring from above is to use it directly on them. If there's a noticable vertical distance between Sonic and the opponent, dropping a spring would be like Wile E. Coyote from Looney Tunes waiting for the anvil to fall on him, except that the victim isn't as stupid has Coyote. If Sonic positons himself directly above as if he was using a dair meteor(if only....), the opponent shouldn't be able to avoid the spring because of how fast it comes out.
You're right. Dsmash really isn't too good of a spotdodge counter. Too much lag anyway. But I like an early N-air (force them to dodge)> jab/tilt, since N-air has little landing lag.
Having a low knockback on N-air at low %'s isn't a bad thing. I purposefully use early N-airs on grounded opponents at low %s so I can get someone in hitstun, but not too far away, so I can combo it into a jab or tilt. And it has the 2nd best knockback of his aerial moves, and IMO, it's easier to double jump into a recovering opponent then detonate N-air inside of them than it is to land a B-air (which is... really obvious/easy to dodge), so I like that aspect of it.
on a random note:
I've been honing my Spring usage, and I'm really close to getting it pat down. Like. I can almost set up the infinite jab lock, if it just weren't for me pressing/holding A to finish the jab combo.
:D
Having a low knockback on N-air at low %'s isn't a bad thing. I purposefully use early N-airs on grounded opponents at low %s so I can get someone in hitstun, but not too far away, so I can combo it into a jab or tilt. And it has the 2nd best knockback of his aerial moves, and IMO, it's easier to double jump into a recovering opponent then detonate N-air inside of them than it is to land a B-air (which is... really obvious/easy to dodge), so I like that aspect of it.
on a random note:
I've been honing my Spring usage, and I'm really close to getting it pat down. Like. I can almost set up the infinite jab lock, if it just weren't for me pressing/holding A to finish the jab combo.
:D
Napilopez
Smash Lord
Imma disagree with you comments bout the nair Shadow. I dont think it should be used hit and run at all in most cases. Its has absolutely no startup or ending lag, and its low knockback depending when you hit can allow for beautiful combos. Fastfalling Nairs is awesome, you'll have a hitbox eveloping you the whole time. Try Fastfall Nair>dtilt>utilt followed up with uairs. Beautiful.
No ending lag? That's stretching it. If you try to do two consecutive nairs at 1/4 speed in training, you'll notice the lag. If there wasn't any lag, you shouldn't see Sonic getting out of ball mode when he lands either. Sure the lag is small, but it's still there.
The nair>dtilt>utilt doesn't work if you land hit using the nair startup. The knockback is enough to where Sonic will end up hitting the opponent with the tip of the dtilt, which sends them forward instead of up. Then they'd be out of range for the utilt. The chain only works if you aim for a late, weakened nair hit.
RenegadeRaven
Smash Ace
Then why don't you just use Sonic's horizontal momentum on the nair's first hit?
And besides, it's easier to hit with the weakened nair, because people tend to see you coming and dodge the first hit and ends up getting hit by the last one.
And besides, it's easier to hit with the weakened nair, because people tend to see you coming and dodge the first hit and ends up getting hit by the last one.
FrostByte
Smash Lord
When you're edgeguarding with fair, it's best to try to get the last hit *only* because 90% of the time, people will DI all the other hits toward Sonic.
I managed to pull off a fair > dair and it was awesome as hell. Dair is definately Sonic's best gimp move, if only it didn't have that crappy momentum shift.
I managed to pull off a fair > dair and it was awesome as hell. Dair is definately Sonic's best gimp move, if only it didn't have that crappy momentum shift.
PK-ow!
Smash Lord
Hey guys, I found some really cool stuff you can do with Sonic's dash. As in, his run.
I was messing around, just learning the timing for DPC-staggered dashes (y'know, run, pivot, cancel into a run in the same direction), and noticed some things:
If you dash, let the control stick go neutral, but then push it forward at "initiate a walk" speed around the time that his dash end animation goes up, you get this awesome slide.
The timing is key, and I don't have vids, so I'll explain again. First, you know how there's two dash end animations? One stops a fox trot, the other stops a run (and plays the skid sound from Sonic's games). I'll call the first one the dash stop, the other the run stop.
So,
You DASH
You release control stick
Just before and then throughout Sonic's dash stop, you nudge the control stick forward again.
He will slide quite far as he does the dash stop. He doesn't gain momentum mysteriously; it's more like he's wearing Luigi's shoes for a moment. Your control stick motion should have a constant pace, and start and end at the same time as the sliding.
One way of putting it is that you sort of foxtrot, except instead of going into a dash, you put a walk input. But you don't walk. You slide.
HOWEVER, while fiddling around with that input, I noticed this:
If you move the control stick slightly faster, and ensure it is close to maximally lateral after the halftime and before the end of the dash-stop animation, Sonic will begin a run animation, and moreover, he will run at a pace proportional to the directional input on the control stick.
So what it looks like is Sonic dashes, slides with his legs apart, but just as he seems to lose momentum, his 'infinity' legs go out, yet your run is like Melee's pivot-reduced run speed. At first. You can then slide your control stick to the side, going back to full speed, or let it go to neutral, where you will run stop.
Strangely I didn't check whether you can actually go into an attack with any of this. I thought just the ability to manipulate your movement was valuable enough to Sonic.
*~*~*~
I read the three big guides I found on your front page, and don't recall any character general stuff on this from Brawl Tactical.
I am wary though of claiming to have found this since, well, I found it the first day messing with Sonic, and you guys actually main him.
Still. There ya go.
I was messing around, just learning the timing for DPC-staggered dashes (y'know, run, pivot, cancel into a run in the same direction), and noticed some things:
If you dash, let the control stick go neutral, but then push it forward at "initiate a walk" speed around the time that his dash end animation goes up, you get this awesome slide.
The timing is key, and I don't have vids, so I'll explain again. First, you know how there's two dash end animations? One stops a fox trot, the other stops a run (and plays the skid sound from Sonic's games). I'll call the first one the dash stop, the other the run stop.
So,
You DASH
You release control stick
Just before and then throughout Sonic's dash stop, you nudge the control stick forward again.
He will slide quite far as he does the dash stop. He doesn't gain momentum mysteriously; it's more like he's wearing Luigi's shoes for a moment. Your control stick motion should have a constant pace, and start and end at the same time as the sliding.
One way of putting it is that you sort of foxtrot, except instead of going into a dash, you put a walk input. But you don't walk. You slide.
HOWEVER, while fiddling around with that input, I noticed this:
If you move the control stick slightly faster, and ensure it is close to maximally lateral after the halftime and before the end of the dash-stop animation, Sonic will begin a run animation, and moreover, he will run at a pace proportional to the directional input on the control stick.
So what it looks like is Sonic dashes, slides with his legs apart, but just as he seems to lose momentum, his 'infinity' legs go out, yet your run is like Melee's pivot-reduced run speed. At first. You can then slide your control stick to the side, going back to full speed, or let it go to neutral, where you will run stop.
Strangely I didn't check whether you can actually go into an attack with any of this. I thought just the ability to manipulate your movement was valuable enough to Sonic.
*~*~*~
I read the three big guides I found on your front page, and don't recall any character general stuff on this from Brawl Tactical.
I am wary though of claiming to have found this since, well, I found it the first day messing with Sonic, and you guys actually main him.
Still. There ya go.
^there was no previous name for the 'foxtrot' stop but the normal stop is usually called a screech stop
I've done this (all in all, it's the 'slow run', right?) a few times by accident (lol while dash dancing and failing), but I never figured out how to do it on command xD
[edit]
WHOA! I've never seen anything like it. That is too weird o_O;
I vote you for publisher :o
should have posted it in TwinkleToes' thread!
good stuff xD
[edit]
WHOA! I've never seen anything like it. That is too weird o_O;
I vote you for publisher :o
should have posted it in TwinkleToes' thread!
good stuff xD
LuCKy
Smash Master
yesssssssssssssssssss im actually having fun with sonic right now lol
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Aftermath told us about that about 2-3 weeks ago. You guys need to read his posts more often, he has some great stuff in them.
hi there...i realize this is sort of out of nowhere (and you might have talked about this particular subject earlier?) but it's my first post, so what the heck? i am working on maining sonic - though i just got a wii (and brawl of course!) about a week ago. one of my hugest problems is playing on any level besides final destination. platforms, moving things (i.e. the slug creature on the pikmin level and every cpn. falcon level), and especially whole levels that move (jungle falls, ice climber summit) just totally cramp my game with sonic. do any of you have advice on this (it'd be nice to have a little change of level every once in awhile, and i can't get to the level of awesomeness i'd like to be at just playing on FD)
also, i have seen orochi's videos on youtube (and yours too izzy ^^) but i can't always get the homing attack to work as an edgeguard the way he does. advice?
(ps - sorry if this shows up as a reply to the last string!)
also, i have seen orochi's videos on youtube (and yours too izzy ^^) but i can't always get the homing attack to work as an edgeguard the way he does. advice?
(ps - sorry if this shows up as a reply to the last string!)