Kong Kollege: Diddy Kong Tactical Discussion

[SpiderMad]

One nana would prolly be boring. I think it's different for Snake since he has a lot of other stuff to work with, and same with ROB.

 

[Soft Serve]

No he doesn't. Diddy is pretty fast and has a good move set.


Not entirely. It becomes Smash where half of the interactions are throwing items and tripping.


ROB would like to have a word with you.

But ROB's gyro isn't the core of all if his pressure set-ups and the thing making up for the complete lack of disjoints. I understand the comparison but I don't think its a good parallel haha. Diddy does have a strong move-set without bananas but Its mostly due to good speed and a command grab.

The counter play for bananas is a lot more "smash" than what I'm used to in melee so It doesn't bother me. Falco Lasers aren't the best comparison, but grabbing/wavedashing/clanking/re-agting allows for a lot more interaction between players than either powersheilding or taking a combo/pressure on your shield.

I will agree that Bananas are what make Diddy good for the most part. Without them he doesn't have a good way to get in on more defensive characters, and his dash dance and camping game in general wouldn't be that threatening without the conversion to back up stray hits.

 

[batistabus]

But ROB's gyro isn't the core of all if his pressure set-ups and the thing making up for the complete lack of disjoints. I understand the comparison but I don't think its a good parallel haha. Diddy does have a strong move-set without bananas but Its mostly due to good speed and a command grab.

Everything meaningful I've seen Diddy do with banana pressure was accomplished with one. When you throw another into the mix, it just becomes hectic.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

That's your opinion based on inexperienced observation. Anything people don't understand fully and completely will usually yield a negative reaction, which is exactly what you've posted. Just learn how to deal with bananas. Its literally one matchup. Get over it.

 

[DLA]

Giving Diddy only one banana means that any any given time, the opponent can completely shut down Diddy's banana game for a while by getting a hold of the banana. While that could produce an interesting gameplay element to fighting Diddy, in which the opponent has the opportunity to play keep away with Diddy's nanner in order to make it easier to fight him, I feel like this is something PM devs would want to avoid, as a gameplay strategy based around managing a single item (on both sides of the matchup) is very janky and un-Melee-like. Personally, I could go either way. I enjoy having two bananas, but only having one wouldn't be the end of the world.

Not to change the subject, but I've been spending a lot of time beating up CPUs to understand Diddy's combos and I've noticed that weak Nair is almost universally better than strong Nair. It seems like the only time we should be hitting with strong nair is at very low %'s (like, 0) and to kill at very high percentages. Weak nair, on the other hand, is an easy combo at any % up to like 120%. I know weak Nair to extend combos isn't exactly a new concept, but in Diddy's case, you can usually get 3-4 weak Nairs in before you have to finish your combo, and that's often because they DI'd too far away from stage; it's pretty ridiculous. Has anyone else come to this conclusion? I feel like this realization is going to help my combo game tremendously.

Also Nair crossup -> usmash is the shiz. I forgot who mentioned that but it's really good.

 

[jtm94]

Which is that part of weak nair?

I've noticed that I can get nair into strong fair at early %s and it sets up for edgeguardssss.

 

[Soft Serve]

Total: 41
Hit: 4-17 (Stronger Hit 4-7, Weaker Hit 8-17
IASA: 37
Auto Cancel: <3 29>
Landing Lag: 18 (9 when L-canceled)
Damage:12 (stronger hit), 9 (weaker hit)

The "weak nair" has the same (crappy) hitboxes on the hands and feat, just are out much longer. I'm pretty sure visually, the weak hits start after diddy's spin slows the first time, so until his head is at like 7 0'clock

 

[BlinkIV]

That's your opinion based on inexperienced observation. Anything people don't understand fully and completely will usually yield a negative reaction, which is exactly what you've posted. Just learn how to deal with bananas. Its literally one matchup. Get over it.

EFF THE MATCHUPS!

So I've been dabbling with Diddy abit. Here's some matches from our stream last night. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzX1k2_714w

 

[batistabus]

That's your opinion based on inexperienced observation. Anything people don't understand fully and completely will usually yield a negative reaction, which is exactly what you've posted. Just learn how to deal with bananas. Its literally one match up. Get over it.

This my experience after watching the two hour stream upload of Guru playing Gallo, along with dozens of PM tournaments over the last few months. There is zero salt in my post. This has nothing to do with Diddy vs ROB. I've never played a decent Diddy. The second banana just adds a bit of randomness to Diddy's game plan as it is very impractical to depend on a banana peel remaining in a perfect spot for an intended setup, never mind placing it in a perfect spot to begin with. My criticism is completely independent of match ups as it can (and always does) happen vs anyone.

You can do really cool things with one banana. I'm not against the move at all. More isn't always better.

Giving Diddy only one banana means that any any given time, the opponent can completely shut down Diddy's banana game for a while by getting a hold of the banana. While that could produce an interesting gameplay element to fighting Diddy, in which the opponent has the opportunity to play keep away with Diddy's nanner in order to make it easier to fight him, I feel like this is something PM devs would want to avoid, as a gameplay strategy based around managing a single item (on both sides of the matchup) is very janky and un-Melee-like. Personally, I could go either way. I enjoy having two bananas, but only having one wouldn't be the end of the world.

It's not like Diddy's banana game covers for a huge hole in his character design. It just means he has to be smart with it, which should be expected anyway. And again, that same thing can happen to ROB.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

I usually have my second banana where I want it. I've been playing diddy for years. A second banana isn't random or chaotic. Its that to you. And that's your opinion. Its not an opinion I haven't heard, in fact. But its still an opinion by people who haven't taken time to invest in studying the characters they don't understand fully. Nor is it a matter of "more isn't always better". Two bananas ensure that the game doesn't become solely about controlling the banana, as it gives diddy the choice to pull another, and the opponent the chance to punish the pull or grab the banana before diddy.
Like really. Its not as random and unnecessary as you think. You don't play the character, you don't study bananas, you haven't put work into even understanding it from your side. So why in the world would you think you would have any reason to come here and share your feelings about something you know next to nothing about?

 

[cong]

Hey guys,

Can diddy SH Bair into Nair in a single jump?
I'm sure I did it in a match but I couldn't recreate in training mode, maybe I'm just bad?

- Cong

 

[SpiderMad]

si that was the first thing in this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuT553KbVKA and here's a playlist https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLovBMkMLex7xP-JgGCNJeai7iPd5hUKhe

getting very early aerials is one of the hardest things, you gotta have a controller with the right height of X and A (or Y and A). I support a 1 frame buffer primarily for easing early aerials like it did for Brawl.

 

[jtm94]

I try to do those sweet double bair aerials, but only does it happen once in a blue moon.

 

[Praxis]

si that was the first thing in this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuT553KbVKA and here's a playlist https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLovBMkMLex7xP-JgGCNJeai7iPd5hUKhe

getting very early aerials is one of the hardest things, you gotta have a controller with the right height of X and A (or Y and A). I support a 1 frame buffer primarily for easing early aerials like it did for Brawl.

Wait, can you explain this better? It's actually been my #1 problem in Project M. I buffered neutral air OOS in Brawl all the time, and in PM I end up jump cancelling a grab instead. I also did instant shorthop dairs with Ganondorf to autocancel, and I can't seem to do them instantly in PM either.

 

[Soft Serve]

Dairs dont auto cancel for gannon anymore iirc,not with reasonable times at least.

Do you use z for your aerials? You shouldnt get a jc grab oos if you use a button set to attack. If you input the input during jump squat youll get an upsmash instead of instant aerial. I mess that up alot when i got for instant nairs/upairs for juggles

 

[Praxis]

Okay, discussion topic (requesting some help).

#1: How do we edgeguard Ike's up-B? His sword covers the ledge, so we can't really hold it. With Marth I just counter it, which forces Ike to try to recover differently, but I have a tough time doing it with Diddy.

I've had some success with charging up-B from below Ike, but it's super risky and doesn't work so well against a good Ike. You have to be really low to not get caught by the rising sword and if you have enough time to drop that far down while charging then Ike is high enough that he can see it and quickdraw. You can't do this on reaction when you're spacing to cover his quick draw and then he drops to up-B.

Any creative responses?


#2: How do we edgeguard tethers, like Zero Suit Samus? Ledgehogging doesn't work like it did in Brawl, they can just tether up even though you're holding the ledge and jump up. I guess you might get a free hit if you can guess when they are going to pull themselves up and jump after them? There's got to be a way to keep them from getting back on stage.

 

[Praxis]

Dairs dont auto cancel for gannon anymore iirc,not with reasonable times at least.

Do you use z for your aerials? You shouldnt get a jc grab oos if you use a button set to attack. If you input the input during jump squat youll get an upsmash instead of instant aerial. I mess that up alot when i got for instant nairs/upairs for juggles

I know they don't autocancel but I've tried to leave the ground while dairing at the same time and it doesn't work like it did in Brawl. I'm not sure how to get the dair to start on the earliest frame.

Do you use z for your aerials? You shouldnt get a jc grab oos if you use a button set to attack. If you input the input during jump squat youll get an upsmash instead of instant aerial. I mess that up alot when i got for instant nairs/upairs for juggles

No, I use A for nair. But L + A is a grab.

I'm holding L to shield, then press X and A very quickly. In Brawl, this would jump cancel the shield and then the nair buffers after the jump. In PM and Melee, this jump cancels the shield and then pressing A (while L is still held) cancels the jumpsquat with a grab (L+A = grab).

So I guess I have to jump with X then wait a couple frames before hitting A? There's no trick to doing it as fast as possible?

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Nair doesn't buffer in PM. If you press A before diddy actually leaves the ground, it will always cancel into a grab. Likewise, if you press A while diddy is in shield but the jump also registers, sometimes you'll only get the jump. Its very deliberate timing. Besides, nair OOS isn't our strongest option as I've come to realize.

To your edge guard questions:

For ike, I always wait until he jumps up to grab the sword and does his flips. Fair can poke this, fsmash can poke this, dtilt and dsmash spaced very well can get in on this. You'll have to feel it out. If he tries sweet spotting it, you can try dairing it, or drop down bair, but usually dair is a safer option. You can also throw a banana.

For tethers, ledge drop barrel charge. They're hard pressed to get around this. They can tether drop and avoid the upB, but its pretty hard for a tether recovery to punish this at all if they're not getting hit by it. You can also try ledge drop bair, or just holdingthe ledge and lledge drop dair/ upb for a surprise if they just hang there. If they try getting back onstage from the forced tether recovery, you can ledge hop fair/upB/sideB/ whatever the ffff.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Also, thunderstormimg still works for ganon.

 

[jtm94]

Please help me fill this out all, trying to complete it as moderately accurate as possible.

I know some MUs won't be agreed on, if there is enough disagreement they can be left blank and we will ask the character on the other side.

I filled it in based on my moderate knowledge of some characters, but I don't get to face every char a lot.

green: advantageous
light green: slightly advantageous
grey: Even or tbd
yellow: slightly disadvantageous
Orange: disadvantageous

 

[1FD]

I'm looking for someone to be a contact for the Skype Group for Diddy to add the the community info-hub of it.
Is anyone here active + in the skype group, and want to be listed as a Rep for the Skype Group for Diddy and would you be up for having your smashboards + skype + twitch/youtube/etc in the contact collection so anytime someone wants to join the Diddy skype group they'll know where to go?

Contact me about it somehow.
Also, my Skype is Extra Blue Pajamas

Thanks!

 

[Praxis]

Nair doesn't buffer in PM. If you press A before diddy actually leaves the ground, it will always cancel into a grab. Likewise, if you press A while diddy is in shield but the jump also registers, sometimes you'll only get the jump. Its very deliberate timing. Besides, nair OOS isn't our strongest option as I've come to realize.

To your edge guard questions:

For ike, I always wait until he jumps up to grab the sword and does his flips. Fair can poke this, fsmash can poke this, dtilt and dsmash spaced very well can get in on this. You'll have to feel it out. If he tries sweet spotting it, you can try dairing it, or drop down bair, but usually dair is a safer option. You can also throw a banana.

For tethers, ledge drop barrel charge. They're hard pressed to get around this. They can tether drop and avoid the upB, but its pretty hard for a tether recovery to punish this at all if they're not getting hit by it. You can also try ledge drop bair, or just holdingthe ledge and lledge drop dair/ upb for a surprise if they just hang there. If they try getting back onstage from the forced tether recovery, you can ledge hop fair/upB/sideB/ whatever the ffff.

Dair works when he is sweet spotting?? Do you have to full hop over the sword?

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Yeah you gotta divebomb that ****.

 

[Soft Serve]

You can grab ledge and refresh invincibility until he up-bs to make the timing easier if it helps. I Don't get a lot of Ike play but I really like ledge drop bair as an edge guards as a whole. Charging up-b against tethers works really well too.

@ 1FD Abstract runs the skype group i think? He/whoever does is who you should get incontact with, I'm always on/pretty active but I don't think I should be the rep at all. @AbstractLogic

 

[jtm94]

Just let me know of the concensus for what the MU chart should look like and I will make the changes and save it.

 

[SpiderMad]

Just let me know of the concensus for what the MU chart should look like and I will make the changes and save it.

Why is Mario across having different MU colors than he has going down

@ Praxis I'll have some video on early aerials someday

 

[1FD]

You can grab ledge and refresh invincibility until he up-bs to make the timing easier if it helps. I Don't get a lot of Ike play but I really like ledge drop bair as an edge guards as a whole. Charging up-b against tethers works really well too.

@ 1FD Abstract runs the skype group i think? He/whoever does is who you should get incontact with, I'm always on/pretty active but I don't think I should be the rep at all. @AbstractLogic

I contacted him yeah.
It doesn't really matter if you made the group/etc. Lunchballs is the Rep for both Roy and Tink, and he didn't make the Roy group for example, but made the Tink one.
As long as there someone who can help someone out if someone sees an info hub and wants to discuss Diddy on skype or whatever.
Would you be up for it anyway? 2 peeps is cool.

 

[jtm94]

I'm just working out the bugs, it will all be fixed in the end, waiting on the Marios to reply with some MU info.

No one has to feed me the ENTIRE list. The thing is that every single person is probably really well-versed in at least a handful of MUs and ideally everyone's experience will fill all the gaps.

 

[DLA]

I think Falco is even for us, Fair destroys him. Same with Wolf, we're even with him IMO. Fox is definitely disadvantageous for us though. Also Falcon definitely isn't in our favor, I think it's even or in his favor. Ness is even, ROB is slight disadvantage, Sonic's even, Ike is even.

Just my opinions.

 

[jtm94]

Why does Falcon beat us? I agree with Ness and ROB, Sonic is a pain because he spins over bananas, but it isn't like I Struggle in the MU, I hate Ike on the other hand, His Quickdraw goes throw projectiles for some reason.

 

[Soft Serve]

Please help me fill this out all, trying to complete it as moderately accurate as possible.

I know some MUs won't be agreed on, if there is enough disagreement they can be left blank and we will ask the character on the other side.

I filled it in based on my moderate knowledge of some characters, but I don't get to face every char a lot.

green: advantageous
light green: slightly advantageous
grey: Even or tbd
yellow: slightly disadvantageous
Orange: disadvantageous

I'll just make some notes of my opinions based on the limited MU knowledge i have. I'm assuming orange/green is anything worse than 60/40?

Spoiler

Luigi would be slightly advantageous for us, he can't approach and we gimp him well.
samus would be yellow imo, its not too bad, but diddy gets out camped and our punish game isn't that strong in return.
DDD is in our favor, probably like 55-45 or 60-40. light green.
Falco is really stage dependent, can go from 55-45 us to 60-40 him. If i had to "average" it I'd put it at like 55-45 falco though so light yellow
fox is only yellow, like 60/40 him.
Snake is in Diddy's favor imo, green, but I haven't played a really campy snake yet and thats apparently where Diddy gets bodied in the MU.
olimar is really even.
sheik is like falco, really stage dependent, but probably closer to 60/40 shiek most of the time.
Wolf is probably yellow.
Rob is light green. Our punish game is too good against him and harrassing his recovery is easy with projectiles, we also don't get out-camped.
Tink is probably even
Marth is yellow
lucas is probably yellow, might be even once lucas gets figured out (SDIing and CCing certain moves, etc)
squirtle is probably even.

 

[SpiderMad]

Why does Falcon beat us? I agree with Ness and ROB, Sonic is a pain because he spins over bananas, but it isn't like I Struggle in the MU, I hate Ike on the other hand, His Quickdraw goes throw projectiles for some reason.

it does?

 

[jtm94]

Quickdraw goes right through peanuts for no apparent reason, and he can jump and grab the banana if he sees that coming.

And thank you Soft Serve for the MUs. It is much appreciated!

 

[DLA]

Falcon is even/disadvantageous because his aerials go through our projectiles, and without those we're basically a worse Falcon. Not to say his aerials negate our whole projectile game, but it makes it much harder for us to keep him out when he can either go through our projectiles or just dash dance around them.

Ike is kind of a dumb character, I hope they change Quickdraw next patch. He can spam it the whole match and be safe.

Also guys I have a tournament tonight, check out www.twitch.tv/windycitysmash tonight around 8 CST if you're bored. I'll probably have at least a few matches on stream because I've been doing really well at these locals lately. Chicago is arguably a top 3 PM region in the world and our stream quality is great as well. I could easily see myself winning some of these once I learn how to beat Kels, so it would be dope if I had some fellow Diddies cheering me on.

 

[Soft Serve]

Ill try to tune in.
All the pm regions are really strong. MdVa is a bit overrated though (no offence guy )
Regional tier (biased in no particular order):
S: socal, chicago, az, nj/ny, tx
A: MdVa, norcal, washington, canada, mexicali (jhaime by himself), new mexico
No idea: hawaii, south america, the midwest, florida, general south,
I cant give advice on falcon because there is ONE falcon main in all of az and he lives two hours away in our sister city.

 

[Soft Serve]

@ DLA I saw your set vs Laz, good **** game 2, game 3 was rough :/ There were a couple instances where Laz landed with something punishable behind your shield and you full hopped above him, I think you could WD OoS to get to him instead.

There were also a lot of times where having more than 1 banana out harmed you more than helped you, you got a good set up but tripped on the 2nd one after laz z-droped it. Your confirms were really good though.

I loved your use of Uair off stage and your gimps were for the most part on point minus one time in game 3.

 

[DLA]

Thanks man. I was getting really frustrated game 3, you may have been able to tell lol. That set really should have been 2-0, I feel like I badly outplayed him games 1 and 2. There's no reason he should have came to win game 1, Link combos are just so goddamn easy. Any time I get lightly touched by any move, I just get comboed to death for free. I was soooo salty. My biggest mistake that set was letting him take me to FD game 3, I usually ban it against him but I've been doing really well on FD lately so I decided to let him take me there. Everyone yelled at me when I did that and now I see why.

Those full hops you saw when he landed behind my shield were input errors, I've been trying to work on Usmash OoS but a lot of them just come out as full hops, since you need to cancel jump OoS with Usmash.

edit: here's the match if anyone wants to see: http://www.twitch.tv/windycitysmash/b/516584242 go to 48:20

I ended up losing to Scythe in losers, he's a great player and a lot better than Rat at the Diddy MU. He got 2nd and Laz got 1st... so I lost to 1st and 2nd and got 7th place. Laaaaame

 

[Praxis]

Ike is kind of a dumb character, I hope they change Quickdraw next patch. He can spam it the whole match and be safe.

I've been learning to deal with Ike. Banana in hand or on the ground in front of you forces him to jump the quickdraw, which you can punish with short hop peanuts. You kind of have to stay on Ike to keep him from quick drawing, but if there's distance, the banana messes him up. He can still quick draw and hop over it, but you can learn to space for this as it becomes obvious.

 

[DLA]

Yeah Diddy has some options because of nannerz, but most characters don't. Ike isn't super good compared to everyone else, but I just feel like Quickdraw overcentralizes his game and is just bad character design. Quickdraw attack is completely safe on shield, which it doesn't even need to be since you can also cancel Quickdraw into grab. Besides that, the move in general just doesn't really fit Ike IMO. It feels disingenuous to his character.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

QuickDraw is fine, there's no overcentrilization of it. Its a stepping stone of ike, no change needed. If he didn't have it, he wouldn't have any way to pressure successfully.