Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*

[da K.I.D.]

lol @join date 4 u

 

[thecatinthehat]

lol Kojin, you are definitely the most conservative poster I've ever met.

0.28 posts a day.

NICEE... lol

 

[Jim Morrison]

Wait... wut... Is boxob banned again?

 

[thecatinthehat]

Wait... wut... Is boxob banned again?

 

[Chis]

Wait... wut... Is boxob banned again?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0-OJm94pBOg&feature=related

 

[Jim Morrison]

Nooooooooooooooo. They left without me

 

[JayBee]

.28 posts a day? I blame that on melee.

 

[JayBee]

its funny how hard i am trying to look for holes in my offense. to that end, I...

I was playing Godismyrock today and yesturday, also went to my school and brawled there.

I tried advanced spring usage, which was fun as **** to do. not only did it work, but they had a difficult time hitting me. at one point I set up a spring, then daired on it, while the person was nearby: He shielded the dair, but due to the spring I kept on dairing him. possible shield lock?! I also got some sick setups with it.

-My recovery set became more broad over the course of two days. I blame my love of spinshot for me overusing it, but went to a more classic style, added to that. and since I'm probably good at wall bouncing now...

-I got a lot more defensive too. it was kinda forced on me by Calvin, but I learned the hard way. But Im a lot more patient now.

- Also am begining to use Boxbairs and bairs in general to create enought shield lag or hit stun to buffer a fair in thier direction(hard to get down consistantly so far). I think that if this is mastered, sonic can have a way of increasing his ability to pressure up close before the grab setups. also went back to more sideB cancelled grabs with the Y button, which for some reason i didn't do as much, but now will more often.

- my timing with the invincibility frames of UpB is improved. From Lucario dairs and Kirby Down B's, I can set up a Kojin comob better now. (or aerial rave... idk what you guys call it) And more than afew times, I used it as soon as I felt that I could be counter attacked, the result was that I dodged the counter attack and countered back with a Dair, aimed at the spring, to follow with additional moves?mindgames. fun stuff.

- lastly, the up throw > SDVJ setup seems to be a very nice mindgame. since the SDVJ is a hitbox, Calvin began to airdodge on reaction, but because I can attack with an aerial at any point of the jump, I can still land hits, and began a nice nice mindgame with it. I'm gonna work this into a staple in my game.

I really hope I can play some really good people soon. I'm kinda pumped up from that training now... Oh and btw Godismyrock plays sonic now. you can blame me for that...

 

[Tenki]

I was playing Godismyrock today and yesturday, also went to my school and brawled there.

I tried advanced spring usage, which was fun as **** to do. not only did it work, but they had a difficult time hitting me. at one point I set up a spring, then daired on it, while the person was nearby: He shielded the dair, but due to the spring I kept on dairing him. possible shield lock?! I also got some sick setups with it.

-My recovery set became more broad over the course of two days. I blame my love of spinshot for me overusing it, but went to a more classic style, added to that. and since I'm probably good at wall bouncing now...

-I got a lot more defensive too. it was kinda forced on me by Calvin, but I learned the hard way. But Im a lot more patient now.

How'd you manage to get him to stand in your spring? lol.

- Also am begining to use Boxbairs and bairs in general to create enought shield lag or hit stun to buffer a fair in thier direction(hard to get down consistantly so far). I think that if this is mastered, sonic can have a way of increasing his ability to pressure up close before the grab setups. also went back to more sideB cancelled grabs with the Y button, which for some reason i didn't do as much, but now will more often.

Yeah, this one's been bothering me for a bit. The landing lag time on the B-air is deceptive, but I have a feeling that, if buffering movements from landing lag, airdodges and aerials, can be controlled better, we can play 'faster' games with more fluid followups.

- my timing with the invincibility frames of UpB is improved. From Lucario dairs and Kirby Down B's, I can set up a Kojin comob better now. (or aerial rave... idk what you guys call it) And more than afew times, I used it as soon as I felt that I could be counter attacked, the result was that I dodged the counter attack and countered back with a Dair, aimed at the spring, to follow with additional moves?mindgames. fun stuff.

- lastly, the up throw > SDVJ setup seems to be a very nice mindgame. since the SDVJ is a hitbox, Calvin began to airdodge on reaction, but because I can attack with an aerial at any point of the jump, I can still land hits, and began a nice nice mindgame with it. I'm gonna work this into a staple in my game.

I really hope I can play some really good people soon. I'm kinda pumped up from that training now... Oh and btw Godismyrock plays sonic now. you can blame me for that...

BT's "aerial rave" is performing a side-B combo anywhere that isn't near the ground lol. Preferrably top-of-level height.

VSDJ is cool.

 

[JayBee]

How'd you manage to get him to stand in your spring? lol.



Yeah, this one's been bothering me for a bit. The landing lag time on the B-air is deceptive, but I have a feeling that, if buffering movements from landing lag, airdodges and aerials, can be controlled better, we can play 'faster' games with more fluid followups.



BT's "aerial rave" is performing a side-B combo anywhere that isn't near the ground lol. Preferrably top-of-level height.

VSDJ is cool.

He wasn't on the spring: he seemed like he was close enough to get hit by the dair, and he blocked it a few times. I saw the sheild tink when I hit it, so I thought it was pretty cool...

I need to practice the Bair>Fair agrro game more, so I'll do that this weekend. Its probably a matter of practice before i get it.

 

[darkNES386]

- my timing with the invincibility frames of UpB is improved. From Lucario dairs and Kirby Down B's, I can set up a Kojin comob better now. (or aerial rave... idk what you guys call it) And more than afew times, I used it as soon as I felt that I could be counter attacked, the result was that I dodged the counter attack and countered back with a Dair, aimed at the spring, to follow with additional moves?mindgames. fun stuff.

Are you suggesting that if you execute properly you can not only dodge a lucario dair for example... but place a spring near by to do the dair repeat thing?

------------------------
Sonic releases home attack at Time A (with cancel) or Time B without cancel.
Most likely prior to Time A your opponent will air dodge to avoid the presumed attack at Time A.

Time AB is the interval between when Sonic is not going to release attack A and instead will release the normal version.

So here are my questions and one possible method to use this attack.

Q1) Are the invincibility frames from an air dodge longer or shorter lasting than the time between when attack A could be released and when attack B is actually released?

A more situational question ESPECIALLY for OFFLINE PLAY:

Q2)Can the opponent react fast enough to realize that attack A has not been released and attack B is instead what they must avoid?

I want to figure out how to make the home attack a more applicable option for offstage chasing. I find myself usually always canceling and most players now have the timing down quite well. I fear however that because most of my play is online that players HAVE TO GUESS which one I'm doing due to the input lag they must suffer. Obviously dodging sooner becomes the safer option.

Some things to keep in mind about home attack success:
-If the opponent is coming towards you attack from below.
-If they are retreating attack from above.

-*The "LOCK-ON" occurs approximately just as the attack is released
* I can't be positive but I do know that canceling a home attack decreases the range thus suggesting that it is at least not decided by the starting position but rather somehow related to Sonic's approximate location relative to the opponent AFTER the move starts.

Two possible offstage attempts to utilize the HA:

1) Launch Sonic offstage, most likely with a spin dash jump (as this keeps your second jump) or a spin shot (which is faster, but loses second jump) and attempting to attack your opponent with the HA.

2) Position yourself below your opponent so that they now are in prime position for a successful HA lock on. Most likely this would involve a fast fall or well time jump/ledge drop off stage.


Pros for 1: Sonic will be higher and most characters (not Snake for example) like to recover lower thus making this a good option.

Pros for 2: It's faster to simply lower your relative height to an opponent then to both get above them AND past them before they get back to the stage.

Cons for 1: It takes longer to get into this position.

Cons for 2: You will most likely have to get low enough to possibly risk an unlocked HA which could result in your immediate death or reach a level just out of Sonic's spring recovery.... of course if you keep the double jump this might decrease the risk factor. You're also closer to the stage which could result in an ugly stage spike if attacks collide and pinball action occurs... of course there's always your teching skills then

 

[infomon]

I think you can cancel Homing Attack at any time between A (earliest cancel) and B (latest cancel). Or am I wrong?

 

[Napilopez]

Would just like to reiterate that the wifi combo is a true combo in Brawl + XD

And that, HA totally pwns torando. Really. If you learn the mechanics of how HA works, it probably has the greatest ease of use to success ratio. The only better option perhaps is using that spring cancelled Nado thing, as it also puts MK in an unfavorable postion, but thats harder to do.

 

[infomon]

"Spring-cancelled 'nado".... I read that and instinctively thought "yeah, drop a spring into the tornado"..... but wait, do you mean, to leave a spring on the ground, so that the tornado accidentally jumps off it, thus stopping the attack?? never woulda thought of that..... sounds totally silly, but near impossible to pull off, cuz I can't imagine getting MK that high off the ground but chasing me with a nado.....

 

[Napilopez]

Yes infzy, the grounded spring was exactly what I meant. I guess you weren't here when we discussed how to deal with Nado and shuttle loop. And how absolutely awesome HA and spring especially are against Nado =]

It is actually not near impossible at all :D

From the vs Shuttle Loop/Nado thread:

Well, I went to another tournament today (I'll post it later in the results forum, as soon as I get all of the information), and...

I lost to DMK again ;_;

However, I DID implement alot of the things we discussed in herr about the Tornado, and came to a moderate conclusion:

1. Uptilted fsmash works, but is very situational and overall unreliable. I did get a KO or two out of it, so it's applicable to a certain degree.

2. Homing Attack: I only tried this 6 times. However, of the 6 times I tried it, 5 times I was able to hit him out of it, even as he was retreating. One time I used it too early and slammed into his side, so I got caught in the tornado. Overall it seemed to work quite well.

3. UpB:

This is the one I was the most impressed about. My assumptions were spot on, as were some other people's when they requested to use UpB. The tornado would hit, and the MK would accidently sideB into a Drill Rush or whatever, and was easily punishable.

I used it a good 10 times, and 8-9 times I was able to successfully grab him, or shielded as he did UpB and I retaliated with fair.

I even got him to drill off of the level. I would've gotten the KO too, but I was unable to get to the ledge in time. However, it is seen to obviously work, and I was deeply impressed with how much easier it was for me to deal with 'nado.
....
I implore other Sonic's to UpB away and dair when MK whorenados your direction. It's amazing.

So I asked:

Could you explain how exactly you used upB? I'm assuming you made MK bounce off the grounded spring? Or do you mean hitting him out of it by Using UpB above him?

Groudned up-B. Most MK's nado slightly above the ground, around the level the spring launches you. He'd get near it, bounce, then drill rush out of the bounce, being around mid-level with the level. I'd then capitalize on the lag and such.

Incase its not clear, the MK did a drill rush because he was inputting forward+B to move across with the Nado. But since the spring cancelled the nado, the input would become one for a drill rush, which you can punish so easily.

 

[darkNES386]

"Spring-cancelled 'nado".... I read that and instinctively thought "yeah, drop a spring into the tornado"..... but wait, do you mean, to leave a spring on the ground, so that the tornado accidentally jumps off it, thus stopping the attack?? never woulda thought of that..... sounds totally silly, but near impossible to pull off, cuz I can't imagine getting MK that high off the ground but chasing me with a nado.....

Works decently at stopping MK's recovery if you plant one near the edge.

 

[infomon]

omglol, that's amazing. ty ty

 

[Tenki]

Some things to keep in mind about home attack success:
-If the opponent is coming towards you attack from below.
-If they are retreating attack from above.

o_O
I always thought it was the other way around.

"Spring-cancelled 'nado".... I read that and instinctively thought "yeah, drop a spring into the tornado"..... but wait, do you mean, to leave a spring on the ground, so that the tornado accidentally jumps off it, thus stopping the attack?? never woulda thought of that..... sounds totally silly, but near impossible to pull off, cuz I can't imagine getting MK that high off the ground but chasing me with a nado.....

>_>


<_<

I thought you guys got it when I first mentioned it forever ago and brought it up again in the shuttle loop/nado thread

Works decently at stopping MK's recovery if you plant one near the edge.

Which one? o_O

 

[infomon]

... I think I just wasn't paying attention / wasn't really around in those threads.

Alternatively, it's quite possible that I thought it was totally awesome, and then completely forgot it ever happened. I.... tend to do that sometimes, about stuff >.>

Anyway I'll try to remember when I fight some MKs tonight

 

[Napilopez]

Which one? o_O

I can imagine it working well against Reverse shuttle loop =P. Although I dunno why they woulduse that to recover, unless they were trying to attack while recovering >_>

Edit:

o_O
I always thought it was the other way around.

Nop, thats correct =P

 

[darkNES386]

o_O

Is that the suprised face?

I'm pretty sure the spring can interrupt all of MK's recoverys.

As for the HA: I might just have to try and test it myself this weekend:
The time on dodge versus time between two HA attacks

A good way to remember the success rate is to think about how easy it is to attack a snake with cypher above stage using HA... usually they dodge it though... since we're always using the shorter cancel time.

 

[infomon]

Holy crap, I just realized what this thread was actually about! I'd always seen the title and thought "match-ups, like Sonic vs. other chars", but never gave it a thought really, I just subscribed at some point and popped into some random moveset discussions. Turns out it is about our moveset, eh? I should read the OP

Since I was just thinking to myself, "I wonder where to post a random Sonic moveset question?", haha. Well here's a quickie... some chars (especially Lucario) use the first jab or two of their jab combo as a setup for something else (like Lucario's side-B). But with Sonic, the jab combo seems reeeally sticky, like timing even a Dtilt after the first or second punch is really hard, and generally just gives your opponent an opening... or is that just me? Is there anything we can do effectively out of the first or second jab of our jab combo, rather than finishing it?

 

[Napilopez]

Double jab into grab is pretty cool =P

 

[infomon]

Really? I was trying against a MK in training mode, <---- maybe that was part of the problem
and 1. double-jab would push him out of grab range (single-jab had more success), and
2. I have to wait soooo long after the jabs before I can grab... otherwise grab-input continues the jab combo!!

I think I heard somewhere that there's "jab cancelling", like inputting a ?crouch? or something so it lets you do something else out of the jab combo? I couldn't get that to work.... maybe a jump-cancel would work???

 

[Tenki]

Sonic's jabs have craptastic hitstun and reach, and I don't think you can jab-cancel them.

you could probably do jab > shield > grab your opponent's breakout attack. It's only something I had in theory though, no idea if it's applicable lol.

Some people do D-tilt > jab > d-tilt> jab at low %'s, but it's sort of iffy and only works if the opponent is trying really hard to airdodge or double jump.
---------------------

edit: someone check shieldpush on moves please.

Like, relative to 1 block in training mode.

I'm interested in F-smash, D-smash, F-tilt, D-tilt, forward ASC, B-air (sweetspot), B-air (not sweetspot), and especially D-air (sweetspot) and D-air (not sweetspot).

 

[da K.I.D.]

i could have sworn that i was the one to suggest using grounded up b to cancel nado and punish drill...

and there is absolutely nothing sonic can do out of jabs other than finish the combo, unless your opponents suck.
i tried it...

EDIT crap! i missed my 3000th post

 

[infomon]

well, congrats on 3,000th.

Sad that you can't even jump during grab-combo I've convinced myself that you're right, we have no options... if the first grab connects, we're prolly best off finishing the combo, for the measly 7% it gets us lol. Unless maybe you know they'll be jamming shield if the first hit connects, in which case you might actually have time to put down your fists and grab them lol.

Tenki: does shieldpush amount vary per character? I'll see if I have time to test that stuff later.

 

[Tenki]

jab combo?

hey, the 3rd hit is nice for the 'gtfo' effect x.x;

 

[infomon]

..... you mean it actually has knockback longer than our scraggly arms

 

[Jim Morrison]

It can kill at 300%

 

[Napilopez]

It can kill at 300%

Which is just about the percentage some people *coughanthercough-achu* kill anyways.

=P

And memphis was the one who mentioned dtilt> 2 jabs> grab. I like it at low %s, tis pretty sweet.

 

[~TBS~]

hey nape, i never thought of that combination. so the person is 100% guaranteed to fall into that?

 

[da K.I.D.]

youre better off in everyway doing quintuple d-tilt to grab
thats 5 bythe way

 

[Camalange]

Yea, I'm almost positive that most people would realize that by the time it takes Sonic to go from the second jab to a grab is enough for them to react with their own attack.

It's something to keep in mind though. I def. prefer a series of Dtilts followed by a Utilt. I'ts classic. Sometimes a grab followup depending on how close they are after my last Dtilt.

 

[Napilopez]

It doesnt have to be double dtilt XD. Basically, the jab is used for when the dtilt knockback starts to become too high/enemies are DIing too much.

Yea, I'm almost positive that most people would realize that by the time it takes Sonic to go from the second jab to a grab is enough for them to react with their own attack.

While this may be true, people usually expect you to complete the jab combo, especially with Sonic as he doesn't jab cancel. I can do it quite often.

 

[Camalange]

It doesnt have to be double dtilt XD. Basically, the jab is used for when the dtilt knockback starts to become too high/enemies are DIing too much.

I prefer Utilt. More damage and keeps them up in the air for uairs or fairs.

While this may be true, people usually expect you to complete the jab combo, especially with Sonic as he doesn't jab cancel. I can do it quite often.

I didn't argue this, just wanted to clarify.

I use it sometimes myself, lol

 

[JayBee]

lol Kojin, you are definitely the most conservative poster I've ever met.

0.28 posts a day.

NICEE... lol

knowing when to speak and when to shut the hell up... that is one of the many ways of steak...

 

[JayBee]

Sonic's jabs have craptastic hitstun and reach, and I don't think you can jab-cancel them.

you could probably do jab > shield > grab your opponent's breakout attack. It's only something I had in theory though, no idea if it's applicable lol.

Some people do D-tilt > jab > d-tilt> jab at low %'s, but it's sort of iffy and only works if the opponent is trying really hard to airdodge or double jump.
---------------------

edit: someone check shieldpush on moves please.

Like, relative to 1 block in training mode.

I'm interested in F-smash, D-smash, F-tilt, D-tilt, forward ASC, B-air (sweetspot), B-air (not sweetspot), and especially D-air (sweetspot) and D-air (not sweetspot).

there's not much to mindgame with his jabs. if im not doing the whole thing, i only do one jab, then Dtilt. I wanted to work Jab>grab, but never tested it in real matches yet, at least i dont remember doing it...

also , dont know if you know this but sideB grab seems to give him a bit extra range. you probably already knew though...

 

[Napilopez]

I would just like to note that the second jab apparently has a bit less end lag, thus i prefer using 2 jabs rather than one. Try holding shield after one jab, and then 2. It seems like the second jab has just a litttlleee less end frames than the first.

 

[darkNES386]

I would just like to note that the second jab apparently has a bit less end lag, thus i prefer using 2 jabs rather than one. Try holding shield after one jab, and then 2. It seems like the second jab has just a litttlleee less end frames than the first.

They're pretty close. Where were you trying to go with this? The second hit pushes Sonic's opponent out of grab range... that would be too good. As some have said there really aren't many other options after the second hit besides the third.

So if you connect with the first two for 4 % you might as well get your other 3% and then try some sort of chase.
If they have their shield up, stop yourself as soon as possible to avoid the lag on the third hit. In other wrods don't mash A.