infomon
Smash Scientist
Hold A for fastest possible jabcombo, and release if you see a shield.
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Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*
- Thread starter JayBee
- Start date
JayBee
Smash Champion
State of the Meta Address- November 2008
Steak.
First of all, before I get to the meat of the post (steak again) I want to say that the F-throw has officially been underrated by many of us, me especially. watching vids the past few days I saw the ways people went to use this move. So I wanted to talk about it just a bit.
The mindgame: After the up throw, your opponent has these options in combination: do nothing, DI, Air dodge, or a quickmove to prevent a follow-up. Sonic is quick enough to attack if they do nothing, right? yes. Sonics that use this mindgame side B, to promote a responce that they anticipate, then cancel, and regrab as they fall back down. this is basically genious, and its not obvious, or I would have been seeing it a lot more often. ( and copied it
)
If the opponent air dodges:
1: Sonic can side B cancel to shield, then punish with a regrab on lag
2: Anticipate the air dodge and still punish in the air (though this is overall slightly more difficult)
3: SDVJ from side b> Aerial.
the reason that i highlighted this is because this is something I've been practicing and believe it to have a place. I've said it before, but because SDVJ is a hitbox, the odds of landing an attack from anticipating an airdodge is pretty good, about 50/50. since SDVJ is a hit box, if the opponent does nothing, it will hit, then can be comboed with an aerial after. If they dodge, then delay the aerial, follow with the SDVJ, and attack as the dodge ends. the hitstun sets up additional mindgames. the key of course is how quickly u do it to give as little time to the opponent to think about it.
If opponent does nothing:
attack. duh. this may happen only if your opponent is a noob or if they tried to mindgame u back, and time thier dodge/attack.
DI:
everyone DI's. expect it. it's also most likely include another option as well.
Quick move to prevent follow-up:
this is mostly character dependent, as many characters have nice moves to use that they can spam. Lucarios Dair, Kirby's Bair, Dk's bair... the list goes on. If the move is going to be a bair, then you can sideB cancel>roll to the other side. this way the bair misses, and you have a better chance to counter. the pushback from blocking a bair may make so you can't grab.
even against something like a lucario dair, id want to be on the opposite side he is facing, so that i can punish and not deal with the possiblity of jabs from my opponent. Or i may run away, and run back mindagame ala malcolm.
What if they jump aways then, Kojin?: follow on foot and initiate mindgame/steak. you have to figure that out yourself because there are lots of variables, like your opponent's tendancies, etc...
Lastly, even though I think this is more viable now, I probably only do this maybe... twice a match. I don't like to try and abuse crazy stuff like this because if I mess up i can lose my % advantage, another thing I think should be a part of concern in matches for sonics. in tourneys, camping doesn't work as well if they are behind. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtcUsZ04BAg&feature=related
watch that vid for me again. notice the difference in how sonic plays the second he gets the percentage advantage in the latter part of the match, and how much less campy the falco has to become to try and regain it. (that falco camped mad hard because he knew the sonic had to chase him to regain advantage, or that's a auto loss. it may not be as flashy, but you gotta win first.
I was actually going to write more, but I'm tired, so I'll post later today. I want to talk a bit about what some sonic's movement by looking at a few players and how we can apply that to our game. also i want to discuss how this is most likely the general direction that sonic is going to evole to in the meta, IMO
Steak.
First of all, before I get to the meat of the post (steak again) I want to say that the F-throw has officially been underrated by many of us, me especially. watching vids the past few days I saw the ways people went to use this move. So I wanted to talk about it just a bit.
The mindgame: After the up throw, your opponent has these options in combination: do nothing, DI, Air dodge, or a quickmove to prevent a follow-up. Sonic is quick enough to attack if they do nothing, right? yes. Sonics that use this mindgame side B, to promote a responce that they anticipate, then cancel, and regrab as they fall back down. this is basically genious, and its not obvious, or I would have been seeing it a lot more often. ( and copied it
) If the opponent air dodges:
1: Sonic can side B cancel to shield, then punish with a regrab on lag
2: Anticipate the air dodge and still punish in the air (though this is overall slightly more difficult)
3: SDVJ from side b> Aerial.
the reason that i highlighted this is because this is something I've been practicing and believe it to have a place. I've said it before, but because SDVJ is a hitbox, the odds of landing an attack from anticipating an airdodge is pretty good, about 50/50. since SDVJ is a hit box, if the opponent does nothing, it will hit, then can be comboed with an aerial after. If they dodge, then delay the aerial, follow with the SDVJ, and attack as the dodge ends. the hitstun sets up additional mindgames. the key of course is how quickly u do it to give as little time to the opponent to think about it.
If opponent does nothing:
attack. duh. this may happen only if your opponent is a noob or if they tried to mindgame u back, and time thier dodge/attack.
DI:
everyone DI's. expect it. it's also most likely include another option as well.
Quick move to prevent follow-up:
this is mostly character dependent, as many characters have nice moves to use that they can spam. Lucarios Dair, Kirby's Bair, Dk's bair... the list goes on. If the move is going to be a bair, then you can sideB cancel>roll to the other side. this way the bair misses, and you have a better chance to counter. the pushback from blocking a bair may make so you can't grab.
even against something like a lucario dair, id want to be on the opposite side he is facing, so that i can punish and not deal with the possiblity of jabs from my opponent. Or i may run away, and run back mindagame ala malcolm.
What if they jump aways then, Kojin?: follow on foot and initiate mindgame/steak. you have to figure that out yourself because there are lots of variables, like your opponent's tendancies, etc...
Lastly, even though I think this is more viable now, I probably only do this maybe... twice a match. I don't like to try and abuse crazy stuff like this because if I mess up i can lose my % advantage, another thing I think should be a part of concern in matches for sonics. in tourneys, camping doesn't work as well if they are behind. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtcUsZ04BAg&feature=related
watch that vid for me again. notice the difference in how sonic plays the second he gets the percentage advantage in the latter part of the match, and how much less campy the falco has to become to try and regain it. (that falco camped mad hard because he knew the sonic had to chase him to regain advantage, or that's a auto loss. it may not be as flashy, but you gotta win first.
I was actually going to write more, but I'm tired, so I'll post later today. I want to talk a bit about what some sonic's movement by looking at a few players and how we can apply that to our game. also i want to discuss how this is most likely the general direction that sonic is going to evole to in the meta, IMO
darkNES386
Smash Lord
Which direction are you specifically referring to? Pummel/tech chase is the impression I'm getting from this post.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
lolz,
i am pretty awesome...
anyway, if you can pull it off, go for the camp.
it doesnt matter how you do it, you gotta go for the W
speaking of going for the W i have my next tourney roster set up.
D3 against snake and MK
lucario against MK
and a nice mixture of sonic MK for the rest of the cast.
i am pretty awesome...
anyway, if you can pull it off, go for the camp.
it doesnt matter how you do it, you gotta go for the W
speaking of going for the W i have my next tourney roster set up.
D3 against snake and MK
lucario against MK
and a nice mixture of sonic MK for the rest of the cast.
infomon
Smash Scientist
I don't understand KID's post, lol.
"Go for the camp"
"going for the W"
??
srry 4 n00b lolz
"Go for the camp"
"going for the W"
??
srry 4 n00b lolz
darkNES386
Smash Lord
Tenki, awesome. Did not know this... surprised no one has commented on it.
infomon
Smash Scientist
Wait, serious, so when you're hanging on the edge, some of your hurtbox is exposed on the ground in front of the ledge? Or is the Dair disjointed enough to go through the platform a l'il?
infomon
Smash Scientist
I recommend being less uptight?
Tenki: Does that work on all opponents? I think the ledge-grab only works with some chars, like some of their hurtboxes aren't exposed along the lip of the stage for the grab.... Hmmmmm do you think it's worth doing testing on this, or is the Dair really disjointed enough to hit them? I guess I have trouble visualizing the whole thing.... meh
Tenki: Does that work on all opponents? I think the ledge-grab only works with some chars, like some of their hurtboxes aren't exposed along the lip of the stage for the grab.... Hmmmmm do you think it's worth doing testing on this, or is the Dair really disjointed enough to hit them? I guess I have trouble visualizing the whole thing.... meh
ROOOOY!
Smash Master
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Lololololol.
I would agree with Hylian, as the title could confuse newbs, but then I remembered that newbs don't actually read existing threads, just make dumb threads like "wuts th difrinse btwn side b adn downs b?!"
>_<
And what is with explosives priority? It's the only thing I really don't understand. Like Boxob was saying a while back, he claimed dair had invincibility frames because he daired through an explosablock on Green Greens and didn't take damage, and today I daired into a C4 that was exploding and didn't take damage.
Lernmesumedumacation.
I would agree with Hylian, as the title could confuse newbs, but then I remembered that newbs don't actually read existing threads, just make dumb threads like "wuts th difrinse btwn side b adn downs b?!"
>_<
And what is with explosives priority? It's the only thing I really don't understand. Like Boxob was saying a while back, he claimed dair had invincibility frames because he daired through an explosablock on Green Greens and didn't take damage, and today I daired into a C4 that was exploding and didn't take damage.
Lernmesumedumacation.
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Whoa wait, I thought that whole block thing was a fluke and simply had to do with "block priority". Are you positive that happened ROOOOY?
infomon
Smash Scientist
Hmmm, good call ROOOOY, this thread really isn't about matchups, and more just strats and techs and stuff.
Explosives are neat. They're an "elemental type" in Brawl (see the sticker system >.> lol), but I don't think this has any effect on tournament-style play. AFAIK they're fairly typical hitboxes. If their hitbox comes into contact with any of your own hitboxes, they will clash (assuming your attack would've done within or more than 10% damage of the explosion), and the explosion's hitbox can no longer damage your character. But it will continue with its full exploding animation, so it looks kinda strange to be in the midst of an explosion and remain perfectly fine.
It's possible that explosions, like Snake's mortar, have some actual elemental-type properties whereby some attacks will unexpectedly be unable to clash with the explosion, and others will. But I haven't seen any evidence of this; for example, aura spheres will pass right through Snake's mortar, but will clash with explosions (like when the mortar hits the ground). So afaik explosions are fairly "normal" projectile hitboxes.
Explosives are neat. They're an "elemental type" in Brawl (see the sticker system >.> lol), but I don't think this has any effect on tournament-style play. AFAIK they're fairly typical hitboxes. If their hitbox comes into contact with any of your own hitboxes, they will clash (assuming your attack would've done within or more than 10% damage of the explosion), and the explosion's hitbox can no longer damage your character. But it will continue with its full exploding animation, so it looks kinda strange to be in the midst of an explosion and remain perfectly fine.
It's possible that explosions, like Snake's mortar, have some actual elemental-type properties whereby some attacks will unexpectedly be unable to clash with the explosion, and others will. But I haven't seen any evidence of this; for example, aura spheres will pass right through Snake's mortar, but will clash with explosions (like when the mortar hits the ground). So afaik explosions are fairly "normal" projectile hitboxes.
ROOOOY!
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I had a feeling it was that..thanks Infzy.
And yeah, I have a video saved of that which is like a month or two old. The real reason I saved the vid though was because of the footstool slide whilst running thing that Memphis coincidentally mentioned in Toes' sticked thread earlier lol.
And yeah, I have a video saved of that which is like a month or two old. The real reason I saved the vid though was because of the footstool slide whilst running thing that Memphis coincidentally mentioned in Toes' sticked thread earlier lol.
Or, you could just trust me. I almost closed this thread because it looks like there are two match-up threads which is really pointless. I read through both topics however and I still suggest you change the name so another mod doesn't close this.
It happened to me lol
I was hanging out on the ledge and I got stage spiked by a Sonic D-air :[
iono. Too late for me to test it this week lol. Someone else go do it.
infomon
Smash Scientist
Yea, sorry for being a bit of a jerk. I was cynical when it was all "rawr I'ma mod I'ma closin' ur threads cuz their names are slightly misleading!!". But when it's "ohai gaiz ur name's wrong I thot it wuz anuthr match-up thread lolol, change plz so n00bs and m0dz don't get confewzd" that makes happy-sense and I'm in agreement; the name is wrong/misleading, so we should fix that. JayBee!!!
Edit: Tenki: I've stage-spiked ppl with Dair by landing it off the edge, so we both fall into a scrambling fight to get back to the stage lol; so landing it on-stage instead will be awesomesauce.
JayBee
Smash Champion
title changed for the third time. I do it for Hylian, but the rest of you guys can go eat some $te@k.
but this name seems much much more relative to what actually goes on here, and it sounds cooler. S.T.L. for short, right? right?
I'll try to test what u guys have been taling about myself, but ive been so busy with class work and this past weekend, that I've gotten no sleep. And I still missed Chu's... that's so not steak.
but this name seems much much more relative to what actually goes on here, and it sounds cooler. S.T.L. for short, right? right?
I'll try to test what u guys have been taling about myself, but ive been so busy with class work and this past weekend, that I've gotten no sleep. And I still missed Chu's... that's so not steak.
JayBee
Smash Champion
Managed to get some good practice wit my freinds the last two days, in between finals. I now have nearly 40 vids worth of steak and not so steak to show u guys, and beleive me, its hilarious. Be prepared! Sonic vids be Kojin will be be up soon!
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
lookin forward to it brah
JayBee
Smash Champion
another progress report...
This weekend the most important thing for me was to work on my throws, especially the ones i don't really use. I also realized that my offensive game could use more work, so I played more aggro this weekend then i usually do to work out kinks in my Spin Dash Offense.
THe average dude when they side B/ down B after a contact, whether hit or blocked, will usually jump cancel in oder to prevent most counter attacks, then depending on the situation, double jump away, float away, or Spring away. On hit, expect a jumpcancelled fair, or uair, then depending on how the opponent DIs and such, a falling Bair. that's basic stuff. So I simplified and refreshed myself with that basic truth.
But like I said, the focus of this weekend were grabs. I tried to emulate what malcom does, and for the most part, it works well on my opponents, most people tend to either airdodge, or attack you immediately after a low% f-throw or up throw, so anticipating that and provoking those responces with sideB>cancel is a good tactic. Also I am learning to use it more in multiplayer matches and free for alls (when I do play them) so that Im not so wide open to attack.
But then I started thinking, what if the opponent is used to the whole sideB cancel> regrab strat? eventually it wont work some, right? i think I found an answer to that.
Side B > tap C stick.
explanation: side B, then tap the C-stick (usually forward) to shift into Spin Dash jump mode, then attack out of that move. if the opponent is conditioned to a previous setup then this may work as a mindgame.
This will only work if the opponent is conditioned to the previous side B cancel Grab idea. this is because now that they expect a grab after they fall (also not that you can shield from side B, blocking anticipated counter attacks), they have two choices: DI and jump away, or air dodge later. then i believe this can work, especially because they both start off looking the same, and if you do it fast, you give them little time to react. This hopefully be proven as a good option to the least used sonic throw so far.
the problem is, how long will it take for you to do the regrab strat before thay are conditioned for the next one? and what if the character has a kick *** dair or bair? may i can't even do it at all? idk.
Also, either I need to repractice DDP, or not use it because im starting to notice that I don't use it as much as I wanted, then again I may not want to after all.
So, to cap it off, my throw game is more creative, my Spin game becoming more refined, and I have lessend the use of DDP.
Lastly, the new vid is probably halfway done. i've never thought it would take this long. i thought it would be done today, but with so much material i may make two. I like to base my vids of the music in terms of length, so that might be the reason i did not finish. YOu will like this one a lot though, and the music is again sonci music, and its mad tight.
I'll post when its done.
This weekend the most important thing for me was to work on my throws, especially the ones i don't really use. I also realized that my offensive game could use more work, so I played more aggro this weekend then i usually do to work out kinks in my Spin Dash Offense.
THe average dude when they side B/ down B after a contact, whether hit or blocked, will usually jump cancel in oder to prevent most counter attacks, then depending on the situation, double jump away, float away, or Spring away. On hit, expect a jumpcancelled fair, or uair, then depending on how the opponent DIs and such, a falling Bair. that's basic stuff. So I simplified and refreshed myself with that basic truth.
But like I said, the focus of this weekend were grabs. I tried to emulate what malcom does, and for the most part, it works well on my opponents, most people tend to either airdodge, or attack you immediately after a low% f-throw or up throw, so anticipating that and provoking those responces with sideB>cancel is a good tactic. Also I am learning to use it more in multiplayer matches and free for alls (when I do play them) so that Im not so wide open to attack.
But then I started thinking, what if the opponent is used to the whole sideB cancel> regrab strat? eventually it wont work some, right? i think I found an answer to that.
Side B > tap C stick.
explanation: side B, then tap the C-stick (usually forward) to shift into Spin Dash jump mode, then attack out of that move. if the opponent is conditioned to a previous setup then this may work as a mindgame.
This will only work if the opponent is conditioned to the previous side B cancel Grab idea. this is because now that they expect a grab after they fall (also not that you can shield from side B, blocking anticipated counter attacks), they have two choices: DI and jump away, or air dodge later. then i believe this can work, especially because they both start off looking the same, and if you do it fast, you give them little time to react. This hopefully be proven as a good option to the least used sonic throw so far.
the problem is, how long will it take for you to do the regrab strat before thay are conditioned for the next one? and what if the character has a kick *** dair or bair? may i can't even do it at all? idk.
Also, either I need to repractice DDP, or not use it because im starting to notice that I don't use it as much as I wanted, then again I may not want to after all.
So, to cap it off, my throw game is more creative, my Spin game becoming more refined, and I have lessend the use of DDP.
Lastly, the new vid is probably halfway done. i've never thought it would take this long. i thought it would be done today, but with so much material i may make two. I like to base my vids of the music in terms of length, so that might be the reason i did not finish. YOu will like this one a lot though, and the music is again sonci music, and its mad tight.
I'll post when its done.
infomon
Smash Scientist
hmmm, can't wait for vid!
JayBee
Smash Champion
Sonic vid for u guys.
it should be stuff that most of you guys have seen, but i felt i should still say it anyway. The next Sonic/Kojin vid should be up sometime this week.
it should be stuff that most of you guys have seen, but i felt i should still say it anyway. The next Sonic/Kojin vid should be up sometime this week.
BlueTerrorist
Smash Ace
Everyone Will Pay Attention To This Post!!!!!!!!
Has anyone just tried to just runaway with Sonic as a tactic? I gotten many people tight doing this. I believe that Sonic can play a mean runaway game. If they spam, i just use a homing attack as soon as they use their projectile or harass camping opponents with springs. I did this to a MK and fsmashed him each time he tried to chase me with the tornado. I even timed a Yoshi out by doing this, giving me the win. Just something you all should try.
P.S. If you succeed in timing your opponent out, feel free to throw in a Side taunt. I know I did (Though my opponent didn't take kindly to that
).
Has anyone just tried to just runaway with Sonic as a tactic? I gotten many people tight doing this. I believe that Sonic can play a mean runaway game. If they spam, i just use a homing attack as soon as they use their projectile or harass camping opponents with springs. I did this to a MK and fsmashed him each time he tried to chase me with the tornado. I even timed a Yoshi out by doing this, giving me the win. Just something you all should try.
P.S. If you succeed in timing your opponent out, feel free to throw in a Side taunt. I know I did (Though my opponent didn't take kindly to that
).
Chis
Finally a legend
Yeah, but it makes me feel guilty doing it...so I don't do it that much :'(
JayBee
Smash Champion
Yes. all the time. i thought u were supposed to do that...
infomon
Smash Scientist
JayBee: luv the vid. I like the idea, of making a bunch of small vids that showcase tidbits of Sonic behaviours/tactics/ATs/whatevs. Might be a better idea than doing a huge "Advanced Sonic" vid like I have a thread for....... hmmmmmmm......
Chis
Finally a legend
'The art of Sonic'
...
...
JayBee
Smash Champion
did i give u ideas? oh snap.
BlueTerrorist
Smash Ace
Hey, whenever you have to, fight gay with gay
. If a MK complains about your tactics, jab him with a wiimote :3
JayBee
Smash Champion
with nails on itHey, whenever you have to, fight gay with gay
the good doctor said so...
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
dont get discouraged about the ledgeshot, dude, it took me like a full half hour in training mode, and even i dont get it 100% of the time
and btw, I am now coining the f-throw regrab, as "The Malcom CG" in honor of the man who created it.
last comment is too much lulz!!!!
JayBee
Smash Champion
dont be sad, tenki....
i dunno who started it, so no credit was made, but i saw malcom do ot the most, so...
but yeah, im not calling it mine, just incase someone wants to say it...
i dunno who started it, so no credit was made, but i saw malcom do ot the most, so...
but yeah, im not calling it mine, just incase someone wants to say it...
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Good video Kojin. I knew most of that stuff already, but I definitely need to experiment with that Uthrow to VSDJ thing. I hardly every try to use it.
JayBee
Smash Champion
The new Sonic vid should be up tonight. can't say when though. Its a big file
JayBee
Smash Champion
The Video is being uploaded right now.
This video shows even more of Sonic's movement ability and fighting in 2 on 1 situations, but unlike "Shatter the Grounds" this one focuses a bit more on Spring offense, his F-Throw and the versatility of his spin dash offense on the ground and in the air. There's something towards the end that you should enjoy as well!
Looking at both, you should be able to see a style change from me, which is cool to see.
Once the vid is fully uplaoded I will post the link of course. comments appreciated.
This video shows even more of Sonic's movement ability and fighting in 2 on 1 situations, but unlike "Shatter the Grounds" this one focuses a bit more on Spring offense, his F-Throw and the versatility of his spin dash offense on the ground and in the air. There's something towards the end that you should enjoy as well!
Looking at both, you should be able to see a style change from me, which is cool to see.
Once the vid is fully uplaoded I will post the link of course. comments appreciated.
Chis
Finally a legend
So I just figured out Sonic can craq walk. Further then Link's I think.
Is this common knowledge?
Is this common knowledge?
Sonic's isn't as useful as Link's because he can't slide while performing any move. All his ground moves stop/change his momentum except for U-smash and U-tilt.
Though I just thought of/realized the U-tilt one now. Maybe craq walk/pivot walk might be useful with U-tilt.
edit:
. . . ?!
Those two words in the same sentence??!
;o
someone go test this.
Though I just thought of/realized the U-tilt one now. Maybe craq walk/pivot walk might be useful with U-tilt.
edit:
...Tenki said:
. . . ?!
Those two words in the same sentence??!
;o
someone go test this.