Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*

[da K.I.D.]

true, i think i play slightly differently. but i do grab a lot.

anyway sorry to jack your shiz son, but if yall could check out my AT thread, that would be great.

 

[Camalange]

JayBee is like a Sonic scientist.

 

[JayBee]

I don't think these styles are the only styles to go off of guys, lol.
He's just combining basic playstyles to name more advanced ones. xD

correct


Haha you should compare your game against other good sonics. its just a smart thing to do. But by all means, do create your own style. I don't imply that their the only good ones either. I just posted them first. if u want, suggest other players styles u'd like me to look at.

but to recap, just look at elements and incorperate that in your game. don't be a Metal Sonic.

DaKID: lol shameless advertising is so not steak...

 

[JayBee]

I was the only Sonic at Chu's... Again...

So, I went to Chu's Biweekly today. I had some fun, but it was so late before we even mentioned brawl singles. I hope Chudat doens't do that again. keep brawl for one day, Melee the second.

So I played freindles while I waited. of coarse I played Sonic most of the time. I won some rounds but never could win a set until I played thumbswayup, and we were fooling around, He still has a decent sonic, and he said he doesn't play anymore. (he hates brawl now, and tried to bring me back to melee.)

But the worst part was how I was beign played against. I guess they thought that my sonic was good, but I swear, EVERY DAM.N TIME I picked Sonic, they picked ROB and Falcos. That's all I frickin saw. Sweet Jesus. I was so pissed, one because I thought I knew the matchup well enough but still got beasted, second because I hate ROB even more now (he's a cheesy camper that I will never play with Sonic EVER AGAIN) And lastly, when I took these players to the final stock with Sonic, they'd want to switch to Metaknight and Snake. WOW! Really? I didn't even win, what's up wit that?

SO felt backed into a corner, so to speak, and i did what I never really want to do in a match: picked Metaknight. I felt like a backstabber to the sonic boards, but i was so pissed at how they were counter picking me. I'd pick jesus if he were available. The part that made me a little depressed was that I did even better with Meta, and I don't really train with him. That hurt me more than me getting 2 stocked by a Rob with Sonic. The reason being that I have strived so so so hard to work on my sonic almost exclusively, proof being the existance of this thread and my vids. But I won with metaknight more convincingly. ugh...

Not to say I didn't win any matches at all. And the majority of the matches I lost, were close, and I played D3, Snake, Falco, Diddy, Sonic (i felt so happy that I dittoed him and it was all laughs) ROB, and Marths.

Now for the more positive part of the post: Even through all of that, If I am honest with myself, I kept it competative the majority of the matches, and considering I was Sonic, that is good to say that. second, I got complemented by Thumbswayup, who told me that I was indeed a good player (i was doubting myself after the ROB match) but it gets cancelled out due to my maining of Sonic. When he said that, I realized that it shoudl be easier to play meta because of the work I generally do to have to mindgame with Sonic, so it kinda carries over to a character with more options, meaning better chance of winning. Third, the people I played, were really, really good, and played better characters. I think I fulfilled my goal before I went over there. And it was nice to see folks still remembered me from either the boards or previous events even though I havent been to one in a good minute. And the stuff about character analysis from earlier? yeah i used that. It worked for the most part. I need to warm up earler though, no johns. i waited till late.

I figured That I STILL need more work on my spacing, but more importantly, matchup experience agaisnt ROB and Falco, and to a degree, Marth. So, back to the drawing board. And even though I dont want to , Im gonna work more on my metaknight and i need to pick up another character, any suggestions?

I hope you guys have a merry christmas, I know i will (its my birthday ) I STILL want metknight banned, and I'm forever calling ROB "J5."

Im done ranting now. I swear...

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

BACKSTABBER!

Nah. It's not like you QUIT Sonic. You just played other characters. Everyone does it. ^_^

 

[JayBee]

heh. dude, i dont wanna admit it, but my metaknight is probably better than my sonic

 

[Camalange]

Happy birthday JayBee :D

Don't worry dude, we all know it's hard to win with Sonic alone, and THANK YOU because for a second I thought I was the only one who thought ROB was a really rough match up for Sonic...Falco and Marth are pretty tough too, so it's cool.

Anyway, I hope that experience doesn't make you stop playing Sonic. You are a great member of the boards and you truely do play a hell of a blue blur
I understand you having the feeling to switch characters, It's personally not my thing but I understand %100.

EDIT: MK is just BETTER than Sonic. Sonic just has BETTER shoes.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

ROB can be tough. He doesn't seem as hard as he used to. I'm pretty sure I've just been ignorant of the matchup.

 

[JayBee]

same here, i think... i dunno.

 

[~TBS~]

Guys, I think JayBee is going through the same thing I went through...Jaybee, I went to Chu's Crtitical Hit 4.5 on the 13th. I played ALL SONIC! READ THE SIG, PEOPLE. I made alot of people notice my Sonics features. At first it was all the joking about Sonic, but I showed them. Everyone said I did pretty well for my first tourney. 25th out of 61. Jaybee, you went, you had fun, you showed them your Sonic. Thats all we can ask for. Who cares if you went Meta? I fought Snakes, Marths, Falco's, R.O.B.'s and the other high people. I tore them UP! Thats what you did, you had fun and gained experience. As Cam told me, Keep aspiring to be better.

 

[Camalange]

SM5 speaks the truth.

<3thenamedrop

 

[~TBS~]

I got all of you guys rooting for me, I get a rush and be like "HERE I'LL SHOW YOU MY SONIC! ERRAAGHH!" I want to play that some other pros now...Its like all of you guys are right behind me, cheering me on when I represent Sonic. Thanks, guys. JayBee, you will show them!

 

[JayBee]

i feel like some of what u said came from an anime...

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Everybody! Raise Your Hands And Give Him Your Power!

 

[~TBS~]

opps...sorry. Thats how I really feel when I play others. Oh, and Jaybee, you are going to Final Smash 08, right? Think of this as whats to come. Just make sure to get every ounce of practice you can, and revise match-ups, ask any questions, and you will come through fine.

@ Terios
Here, Take my emeralds!

 

[Camalange]

JayBee is going to Final Smash 08? Since when?

PD and I are going, but I didn't know you where...unless SM5 is misteaken?

That would be pretty steak if you are going.

 

[~TBS~]

I think I am misteaken. I could of sworn that JayBee said he needed housing.

EDIT: Its for another tounrey that they mentioned.
I'm too slow!

 

[JayBee]

Final Smash 08? what? did I miss something?

 

[~TBS~]

No, JayBee, I misteaked you for going to the Final Smash 08, but it was the tourney that KID mentioned. You said you needed housing?

 

[JayBee]

yeah. and a ride. I'll see if i can gets friends to come along. Anyone from VA going?

 

[da K.I.D.]

so about that wall of text, it makes me realise something...

so i think everyone remembers when xiivi came in here, talking about how good my D3 was and that I should switch mains, a point in jb's post stuck out to me.

the part where he said mindgaming with sonic makes it really easy to play MK cause he has more options...

i read that, and i realised why im good with D3, because it always seemed too easy to get grabs with him, but thats just because my mindgames and my fakeouts and ability to ge tthe grab are improved when I play sonic.

Im basically at the end where I just say eff it and play whoever gets you the W

im always down to make sonic a better character, but at this point it takes too much work, especially when I can just have CG giggles for the win.

I dont need the extra work of havign to play sonic when the other people are already at my level and better at the game anyway.

 

[JayBee]

well, its more like the skill level isn't that different, its just that the character is better. whatevs. Work on spacing more, and more patience, and i should be better next time.

I need to sleep. I'll post more info tommorow. I'm gonna analyze other Sonics. I WONDER WHO IT WILL BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE?



btw... never wanted to ask this, but is this thread sticky worthy now? not that it matters... it never seems to leave the first page nowadays...

EDIT: Random tech for thought: I did this about midway thorugh Chu's, but A LOT of people love to sidestep spins when they can, so you should randomly insert a jump cancelled Dair into your Spin offence. It's simple, i know , but it works more than it should. then if they get conditioned to just block only (which they never fully do) just roll away to safety or ASC>cancel>grab.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Oh yeah. It's important to have a bad character to learn mindgames. Ally plays Falcon and HolyNightmare plays ROB. Snake is much easier for me to use than he was several months ago. It just works that way.

 

[JayBee]

Okay, time to talk about stuff again.

I kinda got hyped into testing again when i saw that hitbox thread, so I did a few things today that I think is worth mentioning here, regardless if u knew or not, because someone doesn't. So there. Anyways...

I wanted to work more on my bairs today, seeing that I felt that I've semi ignored it recently. Maybe it was because i subconciously wanted it unstale, which i doubt. I started working a Sonic's bairs in a Wall of Pain style, trying to find a nique way to work it in my game. This is what I felt works, and you are free to discuss or dispute it. For now, I'm calling this an Altered Wall of Pain, or AWALL for short.

The best way to discribe this would be more of a creative version of WOP that we would see from kirby, and the like. it combines ideas that have been discussed before on the boards. Combined regular shorthopped Bairs with these concepts to achieve AWALL:

1: A fastfalled Bair by taping the control stick down and opposite from the bair gives a slight push away from your opponent. I noticed this before, but just now thought of a decent reason to do this. you need to commit to the direction just before the bair is commited to. This should help lesson the chance of a shield grab on some characters.

2: Add a StutterStepped F Smash afterwards every so often to step away quickly with an attack that will miss shield grab attempts, and can make your opponent second guess his punishment options.

3. Mix with SDVJ from a side B (easily buffered from a falling bair) to show your opponent different looks. afterwards you can DI Away, towards, spring, and/or falling Bair.

3a: If you tap on the C Stick forward, you can sdvj and move forward at the same time, and depending on the timing of when you tap the C-Stick, you can Spin Shot.

4. OR sideB away to reset spacing, or side B to them to attack, or side B>cancel to fake out either options and continue bairing again.

5: when you land from a bair, buffer in forward movement to throw off your opponent. remember, Sonic can do any Smash attach during his walk animation.
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Just another tidbit about Bair: If you Bair normally, you just go up and down, BUT if you bair just before you hit the ground, you will move slightly in the direction you kicked.
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I Also wanted to look at the hitbox of certain moves, so i did F-Smash today, using final Destination. FD is very interesting, and I call it the "Ruler Stage" because of the following facts:

1: Looking at the stage, you see a row of marks (or dots) that follow the length of the stage, 19 in total

2: The space in between each mark is about the width of Sonic, from the tip of his shoe in the front, to the longest spike on his head.

3: counting the litte bit of space before the first mark and after the last mark, which is slightly less than the distance described in 2, We can say that FD is approximately 20SL, or twenty Sonic legths across.

4: using this rule, I numbered each mark from left to right, from 1 to 19

5: Placing a Sandbag on Mark 8, I positioned Sonic so that he would just barely touch and connect with the sandbox, at 1/4 speed. He was able to do this inbetween Marks 5 and 6.

6: Result: Sonic's F Smash in my study had approximately 2.5 SL of distance, with no stutter step. Sonics F Smash reaches about 2.5 character lengths away. Thats actaully pretty long, considering its sonic.

because of that, I'll be working on my spacing and get better at sweetspoting it.
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Well that's it for now. I'll be back tonight with at least one player analysis. I've been testing and watching Sonic vids today for a while now. I need a break.

 

[Chis]

About the wall of pain style...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KJyNEw277TU&feature=channel_page

From 1:18

Also 2:20

 

[da K.I.D.]

nice.

i just watched my vids with kirk, and i just realised, i probably play a lot like blue, im liek on theborder of patient and campy

 

[~TBS~]

but, Blue camps with fair. you go into all of your moves.

 

[thecatinthehat]

lol WOP bairs?

Me and Boxob constantly do this.

Well, the way Boxob used to play.

 

[~TBS~]

lol WOP bairs?

Me and Boxob constantly do this.

Well, the way Boxob used to play.

^^This. I think all of us do it if we get the chance. It usually is DI'ed out of though...but we still get in at least 3.

 

[da K.I.D.]

but than again, that could just be because that match was on green greens and you cant really spindash there...

when he puts up the vid(s) on battlefield i think i get way more agressive

and i dont go for mutiple back airs, i usually go for hyphen smashes, f-airs, or grabs after my back airs

speaking of back airs, what is the minimum damage where back air will set up for a jab lock?

 

[~TBS~]

and i dont go for mutiple back airs, i usually go for hyphen smashes, f-airs, or grabs after my back airs

I hyphen smash when i am absolutely sure i am going to hit with it. Fairs are too good. And Bair automatically leads to grabs because of hitstun.

I dont know about that last part KID...

 

[Chis]

About the wall of pain style...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KJyNEw277TU&feature=channel_page

From 1:18

Also 2:20

I'm not sure about the Bair, with the starting lag and all. Good for retreating though.

But Fairs come out faster...

Thoughts?

 

[JayBee]

I almost only use bairs for edgegaurding/kill move nowadays. I used to ty to WOP it but now I just dashdance/run around/DDP lookign for openings.

i know this is late but... about
6:17 on Acceleromaniac:

Super this, that was amazing, what mad genius taught you that?

I taught myself that. I usually do it for setting but Dair Spikes though...


Thank you to everyone for a great year discussing Sonic, and the truth about steak on Kojin's Sonic tech Lab. But now, as the year comes to a close, I feel like we have made great strides in refining Sonic as a character. And towards the end of the Year, we actually have examples of great tourney play, so I ask you: with the information presented as is in the the best of the best sonic boards has to offer, what are your expectations for 2009? Do you feel that the possibilities are still hidden as to what Sonic can do? Can Sonic make a positive impact next year and escape his tier standing? DO you feel like we are on the cusp of something steak worthy. In my first post, one of the Goals this thread made was to at least prove the possibilty of Sonic breaching a more repectable Tier Status. Has that been Accomplished? Plz comment.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Sonic is one of the few that raise up to middle tier out of the low. We have the tournament results. We're starting to have found most of the Sonic techs, now it's up to the people in here to up their game, get a lot better and show how a true Sonic plays.

 

[da K.I.D.]

nope!

sonics most likely going to stay low tier despite what smart people like ninjalink think (check the sig...)

he has been close to the equivalent of high tier pretty much the entire time that ankokus list has been out. if people are still trying to delude themselves into thinking that that is just because of the fanservice, and popularity, the situation most likely wont change in the future

eventually im going to have to go out to these tourneys where the people in the sbr play and pimp smack them with sonic so that they can ge the point.

any ways, i think sonic is one of the like 5 characters that still has room to improve and still become a better character. Ideally, on the tier list I would like to see him right underneath whereever peach ends up. cause thats where i think he will end up

 

[Camalange]

KID, that is a great sig. I might have to change mine.

I think Sonic has always been mid tier, but people are just ignorant of his abilities and just choose to ignore how serious we are about Sonic and his capabilities. He's been placing about high/mid tier on the Rankings List, it's just that apparently Dtilt beats every Sonic approach.

It seems like more and more people are starting to regard Sonic as a legit character now, especially with all the Sonic players attending more and more tournaments regularly.

Heck, keep him low tier. Now we can just **** all the low tier tournies.

 

[SuSa]

Not sure on usefulness, but it's sort of flashy:

Pick Battlefield (its easier here)

Run off Edge
B-Reverse Side-B
Jump
Wall Jump
B-Reverse Side-B back towards stage.

My friend went WTF when I did it, and I got a combo in.

Metamindgames? ROFL....

Serious matter:
How come we don't try to incorperate Side-B to Wall Jump in stuff?

:mewtwo:

 

[Jim Morrison]

Cause I could do the same, but without the first 4 steps .

And usually there's better things to do than doing side-B to Wall Jump.


This post brought a tear of delight and a tear of sadness in my eye
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6163116&postcount=120

 

[SuSa]

Cause I could do the same, but without the first 4 steps .

And usually there's better things to do than doing side-B to Wall Jump.


This post brought a tear of delight and a tear of sadness in my eye
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6163116&postcount=120

I can do the same without the first 4 steps as well.

But thats what you're opponent wants you to think.

:mewtwo:

 

[Camalange]

Not sure on usefulness, but it's sort of flashy:

Pick Battlefield (its easier here)

Run off Edge
B-Reverse Side-B
Jump
Wall Jump
B-Reverse Side-B back towards stage.

My friend went WTF when I did it, and I got a combo in.

Metamindgames? ROFL....

Wall jump off the thing on the bottom of the stage right? If that's what you're referring to, infzy already brought it up. It's pretty fun to do

Serious matter:
How come we don't try to incorperate Side-B to Wall Jump in stuff?

:mewtwo:

I do 0_o
I thought most did? We just don't discuss it because there's nothing really incredible you can do out of it. It's just a mix up in recovery.