Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*

[Jim Morrison]

No, it's what we want our opponents to think what we think.

 

[da K.I.D.]

because sonics wall jump is probably the worst in the game.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i wish people would jsut show my last vid with kirk, when they want to see an unknown sonic ****.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Ooooh, show me?

 

[da K.I.D.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahFv3ZMF7Sg
like I said in puffys thread
i went into like rage steak mode on this one.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Nice vid. Spotdodge at 2:21 would've killed you. I think Kinzer didn't really know enough about Sonic...

Your Sonic plays a lot like mine :D

 

[da K.I.D.]

i went with the uncanceled HA because i though he would spotdodge early and i would hit him anyway.

but that whiff was funny.

also, 2:55 lol @ laggy f-air saving me

 

[Camalange]

That was pretty Steak.

You do a really great job at reading dodges/rolls and such. The last kill was too good (there were other moments were you display it, but that one was too good.)

 

[da K.I.D.]

p.s. downtilt is stupid good for forcing spotdodges for you to punish

 

[infomon]

Not sure on usefulness, but it's sort of flashy:

Pick Battlefield (its easier here)

Run off Edge
B-Reverse Side-B
Jump
Wall Jump
B-Reverse Side-B back towards stage.

My friend went WTF when I did it, and I got a combo in.

That's cool. Walljump mindgames are way cool IMO, like in general.

Serious matter:
How come we don't try to incorperate Side-B to Wall Jump in stuff?

... because you can't. Like, you have to jump out of the side-B before you can wall-jump.... and that really defeats the usefulness; it's just a minor situational trick. It does come up sometimes for ducking away from gimping attempts, but w/e.

Seriously, I've spent a huuge amount of time practicing and experimenting with wall-jumps and various techs with them. You wouldn't believe how much I've tried to jump off the top platform of Battlefield > side-B in the air > try and time it so the side-B ends naturally while you're alongside the wall so that you can wall-jump before you use your 2nd jump..... just for the coolness factor... but I don't think I've ever been able to get it. lol...

Wall jump off the thing on the bottom of the stage right? If that's what you're referring to, infzy already brought it up. It's pretty fun to do

Well actually, I'd thought wall-jumping off the crystal at the bottom was pretty common knowledge (and quite fun, fake-outs for which side of Battlefield you'll come up from, and w/e).... but lately when I've talked about that crazy SBFCJASCDRT, it's in particularl referring to where you ASC under battlefield, use your 2nd jump, then wall-jump off the opposite side of the crystal from where you started. I mean, you have to actually get past it, then jump and wall-jump off it..... it's ridiculously hard to get the spacing right. And totally useless.

 

[Camalange]

Ooooh, that's what you meant.
I've been misunderstanding this whole time >_>
Now it seems even MORE epic, lol

I'm going to have to try that.

Yeah, Sonic's wall jump is pretty lame, but it has uses and it's better than having none.

 

[Kinzer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahFv3ZMF7Sg

4:10... USmash spike confirmed for Ike.

So now it's C.Falcon/Olimar/Ike that it's doable on... am I missing anybody else for the moment?

Also pretty Steak stuff there K.I.D.

I think Kinzer didn't really know enough about Sonic...

What?

 

[TwinkleToes]

4:10... USmash spike confirmed for Ike.

So now it's C.Falcon/Olimar/Ike that it's doable on... am I missing anybody else for the moment?

It's doable on all but the heaviest/largest characters. I remember testing this a while back and some b*tch *ss deleted all the info I had posted on it. I don't know which mod it was but I hope they get a stocking full of coal for Christmas.

 

[Kinzer]

LOL Twinkles.

Although Ike is pretty heavy, just how heavy/large are you talking about here Twinkles?

 

[SuSa]

That's cool. Walljump mindgames are way cool IMO, like in general.



... because you can't. Like, you have to jump out of the side-B before you can wall-jump.... and that really defeats the usefulness; it's just a minor situational trick. It does come up sometimes for ducking away from gimping attempts, but w/e.

Seriously, I've spent a huuge amount of time practicing and experimenting with wall-jumps and various techs with them. You wouldn't believe how much I've tried to jump off the top platform of Battlefield > side-B in the air > try and time it so the side-B ends naturally while you're alongside the wall so that you can wall-jump before you use your 2nd jump..... just for the coolness factor... but I don't think I've ever been able to get it. lol...



Well actually, I'd thought wall-jumping off the crystal at the bottom was pretty common knowledge (and quite fun, fake-outs for which side of Battlefield you'll come up from, and w/e).... but lately when I've talked about that crazy SBFCJASCDRT, it's in particularl referring to where you ASC under battlefield, use your 2nd jump, then wall-jump off the opposite side of the crystal from where you started. I mean, you have to actually get past it, then jump and wall-jump off it..... it's ridiculously hard to get the spacing right. And totally useless.

I did that last part just now, 3 times in a row. Completely useless, but its a bit flashy and I added to it.

B-reverse Side-B > Wait > Jump > Use real jump > Wall Jump > Pause > Up-B > Wall Jump from underlip of Battlefield.

I added an extra wall jump, rofl.

Also for the top platform, side-B thing, thats impossible. It takes to long to naturally end.

I just like Walljumping, no matter how useless it generally is..

:mewtwo:

Ooooh, that's what you meant.
I've been misunderstanding this whole time >_>
Now it seems even MORE epic, lol

I'm going to have to try that.

Yeah, Sonic's wall jump is pretty lame, but it has uses and it's better than having none.

It's flashy, thats it. Can't really say it has a use besides a really "slow" mindgame.



:mewtwo:

 

[infomon]

I did that last part just now, 3 times in a row. Completely useless, but its a bit flashy and I added to it.

B-reverse Side-B > Wait > Jump > Use real jump > Wall Jump > Pause > Up-B > Wall Jump from underlip of Battlefield.

I added an extra wall jump, rofl.

Oh, well done. But actually side-B isn't ASC.... the ASC version is quite a bit more finnicky. But it makes even less sense in comparison.

Also for the top platform, side-B thing, thats impossible. It takes to long to naturally end.

Yeah, you've got me there.... dunno what I was thinking. Oh well.

 

[JayBee]

Havokk: that post was what I truly feel is possible, especially next year, due to guys like Malcolm and tenki and 3K and others sharing information and pushing the few things he had to its limit. Im sure that if he never got past the tier thing, opinions out side of this boars will change more. It still hasn't really. but its getting there.

 

[SuSa]

Havokk: that post was what I truly feel is possible, especially next year, due to guys like Malcolm and tenki and 3K and others sharing information and pushing the few things he had to its limit. Im sure that if he never got past the tier thing, opinions out side of this boars will change more. It still hasn't really. but its getting there.

Everythings thats useless has a use sometime, somewhere.

I share every bit of information I get, even if its seemingly useless, and I find a use for it.

I made the Ike vs Diddy matchup easier on Ike with DACIT.

I'm messing with Counter Draw to find uses and apply it to Ike's metagame more.

I discovered TONS of data for the Snake boards, and went through tons of tests for them, working on Frame Data, timing for c4/mines, etc.

I worked on finding how Peach's Fsmash worked for the Peaches.

In tactical discussion, I have a thread for every Fixed/Set move (WIP still..) with data that may allow more true combos to exist.


I work my *** off for every character but Meta Knight.

Because my goal is to jumpstart every metagame, get them up to par, and prove that he isn't broken, or prove that he is.

Either one and I'm happy.

ps:

Already starting to play around with Sonic stuff that may be useful.

:mewtwo:

 

[JayBee]

well thats very steak of you. post your **** here. i wanna see it here.

"I think Kinzer didn't really know enough about Sonic..." That's funny as hell. especially his responce to that comment. I think Ill make a meme outta this for when a person gets gimped by sonic or something steak related...

I saw the vid KID: you impress me the most with some of the spacing you did on quickdraw. weird, huh? And you clearly know the Ike matchup too. I've never seen a Sonic stand there as much as yours though, or is that matchup/player specific?


EDiT: subscribe to the Kojin Channel on Youtube. I command it.

 

[JayBee]

bumpity bump.

 

[JayBee]

Toon Link vs Sonic: A Kojin Story.

So I spend some of my weekend playing friendlies with some smashers down in Fredericksburg, VA, and met up with MatyP, a Toon Link Player who had improved apparently over the last couple of months. Now, prior to that, I've been watching youtube vids of Lobos just to get an idea of the matchup, and picked him up for a while to get a feel for his jumping, his aerials, etc. (I tend to do this often, even if i have no intention of being serious with the character, you do it too.) Plus I had the benefit of playing Lobos this summer (though the style is still about the same) so i came in with the knowledge off the bat.

One thing that i hate is camping, even if I have to do it. But Sonic, Like Marth for the most part is capable of closing the distance and with a little mindgames, can fight well against long ranged weapons. I often jabbed at arrows, and boomerangs, and caught some bombs, but not all the time. I spin shot when he got a bit complacent with his spam, which is key agains toon link. When I play characters with B moves lilke this I tend to want to lul them in a false sence of security, then either spinshot, jab projectiles, or powershiled as I Progress, but I most often want to SpinShot>Boxbair .

The thing that I was most wrried about was T.Link's midrange game. Lobos, for example, relies on mixing quick aerials like Nair and Bair, with Arrow Cancelling, and loves the Zair, sometimes airdodging first in anticipation of an attack. After Zair, he will either Jab, Hypehen Smash, Try a Grab, or continue Aerials to punish, and pressure, an effective zone game IMO. This one was no different, though I wished he mastered Zair more. I countered by running around in midrange, baiting for a move I can shield grab, or tilt. There were some things I tested to check out its versatility in the matchup. Let me tell you:

I did SDVJ often in this matchup, particularly in midrange, after the player grown accustomed to my regular spin specials, and was sidestepping often. I also saw he was trying to time Smashes with some of the spins, so I did this to throw that idea out the window a bit. I even got bairs from it as he missed. I added Spring to prevent possible Up Smash attempts later in the matches.

I almost never did a HA after a dodged spin special, and if I did, I got the hell outta there, the risk of taking an Upsmash was too high for me.

I worked on my throws more, because I messed them up a bit at Chu's, and got several Malcolm-esque situations at low percents, which is what i go for now, the mindgames is straigh up steak. He started to jump away in later m,atches, and I need to forsee that more quickly so I can punish with SD>Aerial.

One thing i didn't expect from this guy though: For a character (Sonic) who doesn't get gimped easily, he got me with a few Dair Spikes. wierd because was instant death when it failed, but he tried it nonetheless. wierd.

And I got some money match... er... money... too, though I spent it on Chik-fil-A, which ironically is against steak. I got nuggets.

discuss

 

[infomon]

Your post was incompl

 

[JayBee]

... how did that happen? anyways, edited.

 

[JayBee]

last discussion before the new year!!!

I would like to have a discussion tonight on the mindgames of Sonic and his Close Quarters Combat. it sucks , but many sonics use what we have for some pretty cool things.

We all have seen Malcolm utilize single jab> run around grab, which works well sparingly.
Tenki likes reverse B ing the Side B move.

I also heard some mention of using two jabs.

Now the problem would be when to set them up for a fake out at this range, and when you are able to move after a single jab.

Sonic gives the visual cue of of placing his hands to the side, indicating his neutral stance is comingm but you can do any movement during the time he puts his open hands to the side.

You can even time it to where you can move the second he begins to put his hands down, its that early.

Lets point out some ideas. me first, since i was trying to practice stuff like that this afternoon. things I tried out (for future reference, the act of doing a quick run towards/ past an opponent with the sole purpose of mindgaming/setting up a later manuver with Sonic will be known as "mindrunning"

1: Jab > mindrun behind > grab : Malcolm does it often enough for me to notice, and it works best when the opponent is already offgaurd by something else.

2: Jab > mindrun behind > Jab Combo :

3: Jab > side B : I was hoping that I could use the invincibility frames to may advantage against a blocking/shield grabbing opponent. idk.

4: Jab> Foxtrot past opponent > reverse grab: I like this one more because Sonic's slide is long enough.

5: Jab> Run Past opponent> B reverseal Side B: cancel to grab ... or not. looked cool when It worked though.

I also tried to use Up Tilt more in lower percents, especially after a successful Grab>upthrow or Dtilt. I felt that the length that Up tilt stays active may help vs the air dodge.

Discuss. Happy New Steak.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Sorry, it's already new year here, I don't feel like reading that wall.

 

[JayBee]

then you win the game. steak. you make it sound like no one says it right after the new year starts... i dont know your location y'know...

 

[Browny]

Goddam it learn some forum ettiquite. if you dont want to read it, DONT POST

Anyway by going for jab cancels, unintentionally i find myself going jab-jab (grab, tilt) while most characters cancel on the first jab. I dont know why i do it but it seems to work well enough. Anyone else notice this? i might have to do some looking into frames, knockback and shieldstun etc.

running behind the enemy could be pretty risky

 

[da K.I.D.]

but we have to put ourselves at risk, thats the point of mindgames

 

[JayBee]

its part of the mindgames, but not what it's all about. i thought it was about tricking the opponents into an action you can take advantage of.
Sonic has not "jab cancel" but many times, most opponents will block at least the first two if you have previously did the full three hits a few times.

Jab> run behind them isn't that hard, but it does take practice to get used to if you don't really work on that.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i dont think its worth it.

cus if you think about it, all you have to do is mash A. and if the sonic doesnt do the full combo, you will hit him out of whatever he does no mater what.

 

[Chis]

What about 1st jab > shield > shield grab?

The jab causes them to retaliate = free grab.

 

[da K.I.D.]

they hit you before your move ends. seeing as sonics jab doesnt cancel

 

[Camalange]

I actually do single jab mindgames once in awhile. It can be surprisingly effective. I recommend only doing it like once a match or once a set (if at a tournament). It's risky, but fun.

I find the jab > run past/regrab to be the most effective. Maybe that's just me but I'll be sure to mess around with the other options

 

[JayBee]

trying these as a test would be appeciated, seeing as different sonic types may be able to incorperate them easier. Jab> runaround > regrab is the only one I've seen multiple times work in matches on youtube. Malcolm like this. I try to work on other ideas, despite the risk, then I can see what works or how to make it work.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Has anyone messed around with Sonic's reverse grab?

I've been messing around with it when using Peach and it's such a lulzy way to grab people (especially Sonic out of his spindashes xD). I've been trying to use it in my Sonic game aswell...

Reverse grabs have more range but they take longer...could it be useful at all for Sonic since he uses his grab game a lot?

 

[Camalange]

I actually used the pivot grab at a tournament recently :o

I did a Dthrow, ran past and pivot grab. I mean, it was probably safer to just run to their landing point and shield grab, but that's the whole point of a mindgame right? I just did it out of instinct too, lol.

I like to mix up my Dthrow tech chases a lot, but now with this new tech I have to work harder D:

 

[JayBee]

I think so, though it will take a bit of dedication to make it work as a mind game. You have to get it to work quickly, and get them to stay still long enough. I like the jab> reverse grab idea, and reverse side B off a grab. ill try to work it today on some opponents, hopefully i'll have something positive to say.

 

[da K.I.D.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QkvGPe_6Vs
3:00

also, check the style change at 5:35 it totally threw him off his game.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Best style is no style. Lol at him trying to grab and you walking. Sonic mains should walk more. It's as fast as half of the casts dash and we can atk out of it.

 

[JayBee]

LOL at that comment. mostly because youre soooo right about it.
KID, i've seen that video so many times, and still dont know where that music came from. Im gonna analyze u soon. i swear...

EDiT: the style change in 5:35... got you killed. sry KID