Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*

[Jim Morrison]

Compare this: Japan http://www.speedtest.net/global.php?continent=4

To this: USA http://www.speedtest.net/global.php?continent=1

Almost triple :O

 

[thecatinthehat]

I'm pretty sure they have superior networking tech.

They're so condensed, their routers are prolly wired directly to each other.

 

[JayBee]

assuming that their connection is that good, then it should not make much difference when discussion his steakness, does it? it probably is a great connection. and most matches seem to be through Wifi, as the vids show the replay screen prior to the match.

 

[da K.I.D.]

it was funny, i played this guys wario yesterday, and every time i would move forward he would move back, so i would abuse side b cancel to move forward a little bit, and I forced him from the middle of final D to the edge, doing nothing but that, it was funny as hell.

p.s. JB is a huge weeaboo

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I love RATS style. Mixing his type of mindgames with excessive Spring Dairs are how I beat Diddys. He manages to basically abuse spincancels without signalling either.(look at some people. It'll be patterns. I'm sure Tenki's pointed this out. If not, FOR SHAME =P) Like some people will Side cancel side cancel run. Or side cancel side cancel ASC cancel. Or even just charge downB the same amount like everytime. It takes away from the randomness that really contributes to his speed. After watching RATS I learned that Sonic's ability to momentum shift so quickly is what really gives him the edge. Simple things like drifting during an ASC is amazingly effective. I'm still trying to figure out how to bait by springing. It's gotta be possible. But so far all I do is get punished. Or not. RIGHT TENKI?!?! lololol 10particularlylaggywifimatches

 

[Tenki]

I love RATS style. Mixing his type of mindgames with excessive Spring Dairs are how I beat Diddys. He manages to basically abuse spincancels without signalling either.(look at some people. It'll be patterns. I'm sure Tenki's pointed this out. If not, FOR SHAME =P) Like some people will Side cancel side cancel run. Or side cancel side cancel ASC cancel. Or even just charge downB the same amount like everytime. It takes away from the randomness that really contributes to his speed. After watching RATS I learned that Sonic's ability to momentum shift so quickly is what really gives him the edge. Simple things like drifting during an ASC is amazingly effective. I'm still trying to figure out how to bait by springing. It's gotta be possible. But so far all I do is get punished. Or not. RIGHT TENKI?!?! lololol 10particularlylaggywifimatches

I did a name search and saw this.

Hi.

not really, but I don't get it what all the Tenki references are for 9_9'
I don't think we've played in forever though ;.;

You can do things like spring> F-air and get responses from people lol.
I noticed that when I try to D-air with C-stick and it gets misread and turns into a spring>F-air, my opponent sometimes goes in the way of the projected D-air and starts to charge a smash as I fastfall to the side and B-air.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I mean when you escape from them with the spring not when you're chasing. I can do that well enough now thanks to my hanging in the Pika chat. ACDair gets punished by good players with low lag/offline. I want to find a way to not be totally helpless. Delayed Dair once they chase me up is the best I got but that REQUIRES them to jump and I'm laggy when I hit the ground.

And we played semi-recently. When I started Snake and you were testing PT. We did some Sonic dittos. Those were so laggy I discredit them though.

 

[Tenki]

I mean when you escape from them with the spring not when you're chasing. I can do that well enough now thanks to my hanging in the Pika chat. ACDair gets punished by good players with low lag/offline. I want to find a way to not be totally helpless. Delayed Dair once they chase me up is the best I got but that REQUIRES them to jump and I'm laggy when I hit the ground.

And we played semi-recently. When I started Snake and you were testing PT. We did some Sonic dittos. Those were so laggy I discredit them though.

floating and changing direction does wonders o_O;

Whether it's you vs a slow runner and they have to 'commit' to guarding that spot half the stage away when you decide to change directions and get a safe landing, or you vs a fast runner and changing directions just before you land.

Floating backwards and doing a D-air (since D-air moves forward) to throw off a land camper might even work as well.

edit:
reminds me, when I was playing against cat (I don't keep up with this stuff, but I'm not sure if you've played him or not), he'd do some sort of spin move overhead > spring (reverse or not) > D-air. I had to punish it (and succeeded only about half the time) almost purely on prediction due to input lag, since I had to shield/pshield the spring and get a land camping attack ready all before I could even tell which way he was facing if I wanted a chance of getting the attack out before he could spotdodge lol.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

UpB reversals too. They're awesome.

 

[Tenki]

random note, but up-B reversal > D-air is also not necessarily unpunishable/hard to punish, especially if you spring too close to the ground, since it gives the opponent a larger time gap to shield/avoid the spring and then move into range to punish your D-air.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Oh for sure but if they had ALREADY moved to punish the dair landing where you SHOULD land then it's fairly safe to dair in the opposite direction. If they don't... you have to drop down slowly which is a problem in itself. Just a little mixup. Kind of...not that effective but I'm still working on my options. I'm just not sure there is anything there. :/

 

[JayBee]

p.s. JB is a huge weeaboo

*googles "weeaboo"* You *******!! I actually lived in Japan, y'know! lol i laughed when I found out what it menat. and yes, i actually didn't know. I take back all the steak things I said about K.I.D.

So I played aggro ala RATS tonight in friendlies and Im upset at myslf that I didn't do stuff like this before. I once stated that I had a complex gameplan, but that i simplified it, and that probably was because of 3000. screw it. When you add certain elements of his style , and you already have a great throw game, and you're used to playing a slow down, punishement style, you look even faster for some reason when u do move. I play this dude I know for a while, he knows my sonic, and he plays olimar. he won the first round, but I contolled him the next two. he noticed the difference quickly. I am gonna try to stick with it and maybe put some vids out later, probably this weekend.

 

[JayBee]

you guys already heard what I have to say concerning the new tier list, so im not gonna talk about it here. But i was serious about getting out there more, talking to more smashers and playing in more events. And I'll help you guys the best way I can.

As you develop your sonic, you may want to have people rate it, or give their opinons on it. not saying you come only here to do it, but if you wish for a more highly detailed critisism, or style analysis for any players sonic, let me know and I'll have it up quick. If you have a special link you want me to check go for it. this is how i have done the analysis you've read so far.

1: I look for as many vids of the character as I can, then watch the most recent ones first. I go to youtube because its the most used site for these things.

2: I will go to earlier vids and watch them, but wont go into much detail unless i feel i need to make a comparison.

3: I rewatch several vids a few times to confirm tendancies then type them down

4: i edit and reedit as I see fit, to get rid of redundant sentances and phrases. if someone is doing the basic sonic, I'll say it as such, instead of saying all the things individually, for example.

5: I use my style sheet to simplify the overall style, post if i learned anything new or intriguing then post it here.

If you dont want my help, that's fine, but this is the first thing Ima do to help you guys get better, so use it. and it gives me a daily chore to do here, and gives people a good discussion at the Lab, so you get more comments. Good luck. I'll be back in about an hour.

 

[thumbswayup]

Kojin, start playing Melee again.

 

[JayBee]

Kojin, start playing Melee again.

LOL. If i can find it, ill start playing it again so we can duke it out. but I'm warning u now, even though i knew all that advanced stuff i was some utter garbage. you'll win every time. Never got over it.
best I had was an Okay marth that never really beat anyone decent. maybe i can do better now since i play a mindgame reliant character now...

 

[thumbswayup]

That's why you practice, to get better. I swear you'll do better in Melee than in Brawl after some time. Not to mention Melee is SO much fun on every level.

 

[JayBee]

but maylay don hast the Sawnik...

I did practice Melee alot though. played it since it came out, y'know, and tired getting real good for maybe two+ years. no result against competition. so i died in melee.

EDIT: sure, I'll practice. but i need training partner. plus if i do it you gotta be serious in learning Sonic. deal?

 

[itsthebigfoot]

hey, can you test this? i think the first hit of sonics dthrow can be teched if you do it early enough, i did it twice while mashing, but it would be nice to know the timing

also, i was playing on a modded wii, so you might need to just tech if you can tech it in general

 

[JayBee]

yeah, its been discussed/proven that if you DI down and try to tech when sonic lets you go from a D-Throw, you will land right next to him with about +1 frame advantage, which means you might gets some jabs off.

i want to test mindgames wit someone who id good at teching the throw. plz?

 

[Camalange]

D-Throw is broken

hey, can you test this? i think the first hit of sonics dthrow can be teched if you do it early enough, i did it twice while mashing, but it would be nice to know the timing

Well, it's impossible to tech the FIRST hit, but once the whole...erm...series of hits are over, you can do the following...

D-throw
This move sends people very low to the ground. If you hit the ground, you're going to be prey to Sonic's techchasing game. However, there is a way to avoid hitting the ground. If you hold Upwards, you can gain enough airtime to keep Sonic from hitting you with a followup, and buy yourself the time to counterattack if he does try. You can airdodge before you hit the ground, or just double jump. Another thing you can do is to just wait until before you hit the floor and hit shield to tech it. More recently, it was found that if you hold downwards, you can make Sonic launch you into the floor directly in front of him. Tech it, and counterattack with a fast move, like jabs. Except for Jigglypuff, whose DI strangely doesn't affect the throw at all until 139%. What a loser.

Copypasta from Tenki rules.

EDIT: JayBee does NOT rule.
<3

 

[JayBee]

thanks a bunch for the Tenki quote, Cammy

 

[da K.I.D.]

hmmmm... cammy...

*nosebleed*

 

[Camalange]

...please don't call me Cammy...

I don't even want to KNOW what Kid is thinking about...

 

[da K.I.D.]

ill take it to the sBR...

 

[JayBee]

i want to say he's referring to Street Fighter's Cammy, but idk...

 

[thumbswayup]

Sadly, I don't take Brawl seriously anymore so I can't honor that request. I can give you all the Melee practice you'll need if you want though. I'll still Sonic ditto you from time to time because they're just friendlies and it'll be fun. I don't ever really want to play Brawl competitively anymore.

 

[JayBee]

i dunno what happened, but i dont care if you play brawl in tourneys, so i don't mind sonic dittos.

 

[JayBee]

quick question: does anyone try to use a Down B after a spaced Bair to counter punish attempts? I was thinking about this last night and realized i never do this. i thought that since youll be facing away when you do the d-smash, the first hit of it will dodge any grab attemps or other attacks, the whip back and smack them on the second hit. discuss.

Also, does anyone try to run under opponents and side>cancel mindgame after a f-throw? it seems that if I got my opponent in low percents and f-throw them i can quickly run and side b under them, to mindgame an air dodge, or shield grab any counters to continue malcolms grab setup at low percents. Ive been trying to extend that situation as much as possible to see what i can get out of it, and the result is that some people are now opting to jump out, instead of airdodge. Also, since I practiced spacing with U-air more, I feel that we can extend this situation for a good chunk of % as we camp thier landing, bait airdodges, and chase with uairs awesome second hit.

in my mind, i'm thinking of doing the following, lets say from a grab t very low percent:
grab>Up throw (they usually airdodge and falll again/ try to falling aerial)> regrab> Jab> F-Throw> dash under side B.

If i feel the opponent will try to jump a way, i want to go for a uair juggling, because that SDVJ stuff i had a theory about dont really work too much. If they dodge and fall again, I can grab them again, and try another throw, though I havent been that brave, and just d-threw them instead mostly)

thats the basic idea now. I really love upair now, and am at teh point in my Lab where i want to see if, a Sonic is good at spacing the second uair hit well, can he juggle his opponent for a good while, then when the opponent airdodges (because he can't figure anything else out) I trick him and Punish with another grab or a smash on the ground. discuss.

 

[Browny]

meh, does uthrow -> wait for airdodge -> grab even work anymore? Granted the only good player i play against is my brother and he knows all sonics tricks, it hardly ever works so I just go for a uair instead.

Uair is **** for all occasions. be sure to AC it easiest way ive found is simply SH, slightly delay csticked uair, FF immediately after

 

[JayBee]

like i said, people catch on, but ironically, they still get caught often enuough. usually, the first time i do it in a match it works.

 

[Tenki]

quick question: does anyone try to use a Down B after a spaced Bair to counter punish attempts? I was thinking about this last night and realized i never do this. i thought that since youll be facing away when you do the d-smash, the first hit of it will dodge any grab attemps or other attacks, the whip back and smack them on the second hit. discuss.

down-B after a b-air? or D-smash? lol

I used to try doing reverse D-smashes but I stopped -

1) I like to save D-smash for a spotdodge happy opponent, or as a backup killmove.

2) I realized that reverse stutterstep F-smash//reverse foxtrot F-smash works just as well.

 

[JayBee]

meh, does uthrow -> wait for airdodge -> grab even work anymore? Granted the only good player i play against is my brother and he knows all sonics tricks, it hardly ever works so I just go for a uair instead.

Uair is **** for all occasions. be sure to AC it easiest way ive found is simply SH, slightly delay csticked uair, FF immediately after

down-B after a b-air? or D-smash? lol

I used to try doing reverse D-smashes but I stopped -

1) I like to save D-smash for a spotdodge happy opponent, or as a backup killmove.

2) I realized that reverse stutterstep F-smash//reverse foxtrot F-smash works just as well.

lol i meant d smash.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I like pivot Dsmash. It's fun as hell.

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

like i said, people catch on, but ironically, they still get caught often enuough. usually, the first time i do it in a match it works.

It still works sometimes.

A couple nights ago I got an upthrow>upthrow>back throw>bair.

It was total ****

 

[JayBee]

lol. newbs.
but i still try this on people because it once you see how they'll react, then you can adjust on the fly better. they have to do something, and we know what the options are already, depending on the character.

 

[JayBee]

I'm at Yoster's Smashfest right now...

So, yeah, as long as I have access to a computer, i'll try to relay some of my experiences and tell you some stuff i did.


A good portion of the people here (slik vik, Lobos) seem to respect sonic more than others (Thumbs)

i'm holding my own, which is awesome. I started off with yosters Snake, then I played Okin and his Lucus, which was a fun as ****. The first good Lucus I've ever played against, so I had to learn hsi tendancies on the fly, so i didn't do so good. Played some teams with Thumbs. (omg he just said that even though he respects "my sonic", Sonic still sucks, kinda true, kinda not) but the people I'm playing have experience agaisnt sonic for the most part, which is what i needed to reevaluate my ability.


Things that worked (for some reason)..

-Well, malcolms grab setups worked well, really well. im upset that i messed up on some, becuase i'd miss out on another attack. i think that i should have grabbed more, actually. I conentrated more on Up throw so i can work on spacing upair. when i do it right, it looks, as you'd know, really awesome.

- Spring offence: I mentioned it before and you can see a few examples of this on my vid "Acceleromanic", but i actually pulled this of a few times: grounded spring, multiple dairs on spring, before rising up again. granted, i tried this maybe once a match, but I like the mindgame it seems to hav, because if ****s up airdodge timing. also, ive caught a few people nearby while dairing on the spring, popping them up.


I'll post more later. iwant to talk more about Okin's lucus vs my sonic


eDIT: played G-reg's snake vs my sonic.
good news: mind games worked well
bad news: got two stocked most of the time, some were close but the part about it that pissed me off, was that I just got finished playing another Snake, and G-reg got me in explosives a **** ton more and f-tilted me a lot more. jeez. Once I got used to it though, i managed to win against him. i had to mindgame the **** outta him to do it.

I love my sonic's mindgames...

I had fun. the reason from me going, was for me to confrim the things i've been practicing and putting it together. It worked well, and my mindgames , as well as knowledge on certain matchups was solidified. Can't wait for philly...

BTW, thx for inviting me, Yoster! good times, good times...

 

[Camalange]

That sounds like quite the time JayBee. So you were able to beat G-reg's Snake?

That's pretty steak right there. You should record your matches more.

 

[JayBee]

it was all in fun. yeah, i wanted to record matches (even the ones I fail in) but Yoster couldn't do it for some reason that day. and i didn't bring anything but my controllers.
but basically, my goal was to grab him ala malcolm, then keep him in the air with upairs, mindgaming his airdodges and camping his landing spot for regrabs/ more upairs/ Dsmash. I kept F Smash pretty unstale in those matches even though snake is a tank. I aimed for vertical kills mostly since i was trying to space upair well. If i wanted to get in close, upair crossups seemed to work, and allowed me to shiled/attack quickly due to it auto cancelling. even though i tried doing that the whole time, it took a few matches before i stopped getting ***** by his ****, yknow, the ftilts (gawd i never got ftilted so much by snake in a match) and his grenade game, which was amazing and a bit frustrating. smartest snake i ever played.

The thing that suprised me was how well mindgameing forced airdodge was working, and the fact that my D-throw had no effect in this matchup lol. I almost stuck exclusively with Up throw, with occasional fthrow, which i usually followed up with a foxtrot under him > side B cancel to to mindgame a regrab or spindash combo up close.

what suprised me the most was how well spring offense worked, when i used it sparingly. you'd think id get punished, but when He was at high percents, me dairing on a grounded spring messed with him a bit. I think its because he didn't know when i'd fly back up.

i think one time I daired on a grounded spring a bunch when someone was nearby. i like this idea and it should be explored more. I daired repeatedly on the spring, someone eventually gets hit from the ground, i stop dairing to pop up, and upair them for a vertical kill.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

What are Malcolms grab setups?

 

[JayBee]

What are Malcolms grab setups?

its realatively easy to determine when you look at his vids on youtube like i had to, but at low percents especially his close range game revolves around Up and Forward Throws, mindgaming them to airdodge, then regrabing them for extra throws and damage. its a great set up it really is. if you havent added something like that to your game, then u need to. its that good.

Up throw > side B cancel (opponent will usually air dodge to avoid possible attack OR try to attack him in his charge state as they fall, BUT we know we can shield cancel and that's what he does) > regrab

then he does a few things to mix it up and keep pressure off of that. if you'll wait a moment I'll link some vids and show you some examples. and this is generally what I tend to go for, thoguh I think I tend to use SDVJ> aerial or uair spam a bit more in addition to what you see here. (sonic? spam? the? lol)

brb

for laziness purposes, Forced Air Dodge (FAD) is basically you mindgaming the opponent to airdodge so you can punish them after it. that's all.


Edit: Look at these points in that match closely: Snake (Ryko) vs Sonic (Malcolm) Match 1

@:35 - Fthrow on snake at 62%, > (FAD via sideB cancel) > regrab> Dthrow.
Result: +18% damage and opponent is offstage.

@1:14 - though the followup failed, he Up throws on snake at a low percent, then FAD via side B cancel near his landing spot so he can try to regrab him. unfortunately, he was just out side of grab range and got f tilted, but this is the foundation of malcolms grab setups.

@1:30 - again, this time the snake is at 45%. this time, he changes the look and does a FAD via empty jump. but fails due to improper spacing. note that despite the relatively high percents, this is still a viable strategy.

@2:26 - this is awesome, and shows the reward A sonic will get for good mindgames. From 0%, dtilt > grab > runs behind opponent ( which is hilarious because the Snake jabs where sonic was lol) > grab> pummel (1hit) > Up throw > FAD via foxtrotted SideB cancel (important that he moved before the sideb to fix his spacing issues during regrab attempts in this match) > Up Throw > Fair

Result: 41% total damage and Snake is in the air, where sonic has the advantage and has the opportunity to put in more damage is he chases correctly. Please note that Snake could have airdodged at teh second upthrow, but probably didn't because of the previous instances in the match where he got regrabbed because of that airdodging. in the end he got mindgamed into doing nothing lol.

discuss.