Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*

[Camalange]

Up throw > side B cancel (opponent will usually air dodge to avoid possible attack OR try to attack him in his charge state as they fall, BUT we know we can shield cancel and that's what he does) > regrab

I've done this to Terios.

Discuss.

 

[JayBee]

its realatively easy to determine when you look at his vids on youtube like i had to, but at low percents especially his close range game revolves around Up and Forward Throws, mindgaming them to airdodge, then regrabing them for extra throws and damage. its a great set up it really is. if you havent added something like that to your game, then u need to. its that good.

Up throw > side B cancel (opponent will usually air dodge to avoid possible attack OR try to attack him in his charge state as they fall, BUT we know we can shield cancel and that's what he does) > regrab

then he does a few things to mix it up and keep pressure off of that. if you'll wait a moment I'll link some vids and show you some examples. and this is generally what I tend to go for, thoguh I think I tend to use SDVJ> aerial or uair spam a bit more in addition to what you see here. (sonic? spam? the? lol)

brb

for laziness purposes, Forced Air Dodge (FAD) is basically you mindgaming the opponent to airdodge so you can punish them after it. that's all.


Edit: Look at these points in that match closely: Snake (Ryko) vs Sonic (Malcolm) Match 1

@:35 - Fthrow on snake at 62%, > (FAD via sideB cancel) > regrab> Dthrow.
Result: +18% damage and opponent is offstage.

@1:14 - though the followup failed, he Up throws on snake at a low percent, then FAD via side B cancel near his landing spot so he can try to regrab him. unfortunately, he was just out side of grab range and got f tilted, but this is the foundation of malcolms grab setups.

@1:30 - again, this time the snake is at 45%. this time, he changes the look and does a FAD via empty jump. but fails due to improper spacing. note that despite the relatively high percents, this is still a viable strategy.

@2:26 - this is awesome, and shows the reward A sonic will get for good mindgames. From 0%, dtilt > grab > runs behind opponent ( which is hilarious because the Snake jabs where sonic was lol) > grab> pummel (1hit) > Up throw > FAD via foxtrotted SideB cancel (important that he moved before the sideb to fix his spacing issues during regrab attempts in this match) > Up Throw > Fair

Result: 41% total damage and Snake is in the air, where sonic has the advantage and has the opportunity to put in more damage is he chases correctly. Please note that Snake could have airdodged at teh second upthrow, but probably didn't because of the previous instances in the match where he got regrabbed because of that airdodging. in the end he got mindgamed into doing nothing lol.

another key is the speed at which he does it. the opponent literally has frames to decide how to defend himself and hopes he guessed right. nice.

pretty sure he does more midgames than this too. watch other vids and give thoughts if you wish. maybe if Malcolm comes in here he can give more insight and i'd like to ask him what he thinks of my analysis so far...

Edit: hows my new sig?

 

[infomon]

Great stuff, Kojin. I can't believe the effort you put into analyzing playstyles, but it's always really interesting. I love throwing, regrabbing, using a different throw for a different follow-up to keep them on their toes, it's funfunfun.

Your new sig is awesome btw.

 

[Camalange]

Your sig is sexy.

 

[JayBee]

Well we have so many people here doing great stuff for Sonic, Im more of the analytical type, so I do what I do best. As I get better, I feel like I should take the time to detail it, since i went through the trouble of making this thread. dont wanna be left behind. and analyzing styles and adding them to my own/ testing is my favorite part.

@ infzy: its more than fun. this is foundational Sonic mindgames at early stock. this needs to be understood and explained to those who don't know as clearly as possible.

and yes, the sig is sexy steak.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I've done this to Terios.

Discuss.

Yeah. Ya *******. Ah well I still have that Pika match to lie back on.

I'm going to get around to adding that. Right now I've shifted my bait and spindash game for a more running around using my SPEED to bait instead of my cancels. It's getting pretty good. Now I need to mix those and add-in these Malcolm grabs.

 

[Chis]

Kojin, could you do an analysis of me from my videos? You offered a few pages ago.

If not, I understand.

 

[JayBee]

Kojin, could you do an analysis of me from my videos? You offered a few pages ago.

If not, I understand.

lol. sure. I was about to look at some vids to study anyway, so i can and will. I'll have something today i usually take an hour to do one if i work quickly watching vids.

 

[JayBee]

Chis wanted a Style Analysis, so he got one. let's take a look:

Chis no Style: the first thing I notice is that Chis' style is very spin based. His knowledge of fundamental ASC , SDVJ, and spin cancels are evident, so the foundation for a strong sonic is already in place. The main holes in his game revolve around mindgames, his throw game, his edge game, and his overreliance on certain moves.

His ground game is based on grabs, which usually end with a D-throw, baiting with cancels, and punishing with F-Smash, Bair, and Spin specials. His aerials are mostly bair based, which means its more for punishment than a KO move. He uses other moves, but he is more skilled at Bair than the others. He would do better to add Uair more, because it’s too good. Its a nearly lagless two hitter that juggles and baits airdodges, and its nasty disjoint give this move some of the priority that Sonic starves for.

His edge game also revolves around bair, again, the only problem I have with it besides the lack of different looks is that he also uses bairs so often. This means diminished power, which usually isn’t a good thing considering sonic’s lack of a kill move. The edge game also needs to be more aggressive. Some matches I looked at had Chis allow his opponent to return to the ledge without any form of preventive measure. This will not do, especially since he doesn’t save Bair or F-Smash solely for killing. If I were Chis, I’d take a closer look at all the gimping methods Sonic has available, which you can find in on the sonic boards easily. If he was great at gimping/edgegaurding/ stage spikes, it wouldn’t be such a problem that he uses Bair so much, but since he’s not, heavier opponents will last even longer against him.

His throw game is how most other Sonics start off, reliant on the D-Throw. Unfortunately, we have a few problems. His follow-ups after the d-throw so far aren’t consistant enough, meaning his tech chasing needs work. He’d sometime be too busy charging a spin move when he could have simply ran over to them, for example. He doesn’t use the other throws like he should, especially since we know about the mindgames F-Throw and Up-throw give early/mid stock, which ties into his need to work on mindgames. this will make his diminished Bair and F-Smash issue less a problem, while giving him better chasing and damage ability (yeah I <3 Malcolm grab games).Plus, D-Throw is easy to tech, so use it, but don’t rely on it.

Once he learns to use more of his moves comfortably, and take more advantage of sonic’s edgegaurding/ gimp game, and add more uair to complement his bair usage, he should notice better improvement. Don’t use all your spin cancel repertoire so early too. Your mindgames will improve as you play those other sonics, I believe, so keep at it and you will get better. Use the up/forward throws and use your cancels to mindgame regrabs quickly rack damage. Be more aggressive during the edgegaurd and see how that works for you.

Style Type: Ground/Punish

Note: I’ll assume your better offline (duh) but that doesn’t change your move usage and tendancies IMO. Good luck, and I can’t wait to see your improvement.

Discuss. Steak.

 

[Camalange]

That's some cool stuff Kojin. I like how you not only describe the playstyle, but you offer different ways to improve and to balance out the style...way past cool.

If I get some newer matches of myself up, would you mind analyzing me

 

[thecatinthehat]

I'm next after Camalange. If you dont mind of course.

 

[Chis]

Good steak

Chis no Style: the first thing I notice is that Chis' style is very spin based. His knowledge of fundamental ASC , SDVJ, and spin cancels are evident, so the foundation for a strong sonic is already in place. The main holes in his game revolve around mindgames, his throw game, his edge game, and his overreliance on certain moves.

His ground game is based on grabs, which usually end with a D-throw, baiting with cancels, and punishing with F-Smash, Bair, and Spin specials. His aerials are mostly bair based, which means its more for punishment than a KO move. He uses other moves, but he is more skilled at Bair than the others. He would do better to add Uair more, because it’s too good. Its a nearly lagless two hitter that juggles and baits airdodges, and its nasty disjoint give this move some of the priority that Sonic starves for.

His edge game also revolves around bair, again, the only problem I have with it besides the lack of different looks is that he also uses bairs so often. This means diminished power, which usually isn’t a good thing considering sonic’s lack of a kill move. The edge game also needs to be more aggressive. Some matches I looked at had Chis allow his opponent to return to the ledge without any form of preventive measure. This will not do, especially since he doesn’t save Bair or F-Smash solely for killing. If I were Chis, I’d take a closer look at all the gimping methods Sonic has available, which you can find in on the sonic boards easily. If he was great at gimping/edgegaurding/ stage spikes, it wouldn’t be such a problem that he uses Bair so much, but since he’s not, heavier opponents will last even longer against him.

His throw game is how most other Sonics start off, reliant on the D-Throw. Unfortunately, we have a few problems. His follow-ups after the d-throw so far aren’t consistant enough, meaning his tech chasing needs work. He’d sometime be too busy charging a spin move when he could have simply ran over to them, for example. He doesn’t use the other throws like he should, especially since we know about the mindgames F-Throw and Up-throw give early/mid stock, which ties into his need to work on mindgames. this will make his diminished Bair and F-Smash issue less a problem, while giving him better chasing and damage ability (yeah I <3 Malcolm grab games).Plus, D-Throw is easy to tech, so use it, but don’t rely on it.

Once he learns to use more of his moves comfortably, and take more advantage of sonic’s edgegaurding/ gimp game, and add more uair to complement his bair usage, he should notice better improvement. Don’t use all your spin cancel repertoire so early too. Your mindgames will improve as you play those other sonics, I believe, so keep at it and you will get better. Use the up/forward throws and use your cancels to mindgame regrabs quickly rack damage. Be more aggressive during the edgegaurd and see how that works for you.

Style Type: Ground/Punish

Note: I’ll assume your better offline (duh) but that doesn’t change your move usage and tendancies IMO. Good luck, and I can’t wait to see your improvement.

Discuss. Steak.

Thanks Kojin for spending some of your time analyzing me, I'll work on it.

Nice signature by the way.

 

[Napilopez]

Awesome work Kojin, seriously =]

Btw... would you like to play sometime? I don't believe I've ever faced you.

 

[JayBee]

That's some cool stuff Kojin. I like how you not only describe the playstyle, but you offer different ways to improve and to balance out the style...way past cool.

If I get some newer matches of myself up, would you mind analyzing me

No problem. you too, Catinthehat.

Napilopez: we havent played before? i thought we did. no johns, but significantly worse online I be. I'll still play though...

Edit: anyone who tells me what the japanese says will get 10 Kojin Points, which are twice as more valuble than Boxob Points (think of em as dimes to my quarters)

Steak.

 

[JayBee]

new match vids

sry about the double post but Check the Kojin Channel on Youtube soon. I got very recent vids of me versus a Ganon player I train with. we've both improved...

I've been talking to you guys a while about Malcolm throws and how much i love upair and how im trying to explore them as much as I can. I don't just theorize, I put my steak on the line in real matches to see if they work. well, you get to see some of my work in an real setting against a player who knows the Sonic matchup, and has played against me for about a year, (no "he didn't know the matchup" johns) lets see the results. I'd post them all here individually, but just go to The Kojin Channel and see them yourself (make sure you subscribe) or simply go the Winning Steak Cinemas instead. if you wish to comment on my sonic go ahead.


Edit: since I'm nice,
Kojin (Sonic) vs DTG (Ganon) 1
Kojin (Sonic) vs DTG (Ganon) 2
Kojin (Sonic) vs DTG (Ganon) 3
Kojin (Sonic) vs DTG (Ganon) 4
Kojin (Sonic) vs DTG (Ganon) 5
Kojin (Sonic) vs DTG (Ganon) 6
Kojin (Sonic) vs DTG (Ganon) 7
Kojin (Sonic) vs DTG (Ganon) 8
Kojin (Sonic) vs DTG (Ganon) 9
Kojin (Sonic) vs DTG (Ganon) 10

subscribe to the Kojin Channel anyways. u should.

 

[MarKO X]

wow... you can really shorthop uair and get away with that ****. I'm going to make that my new favorite move.

yeah, i started to watch the vids, they're pretty good stuff. And I'm seriously wondering if this uair abuse is going to improve my Sonic game any. Obviously it has to properly spaced and whatnot, but yeah... I'm loving the uair exhibition.

 

[JayBee]

I felt that if you spaced it well and autocancelled it you could.

I actually have 42 matches, you only have 10 to see. the rest, either I'll post them later, or make a vid showcasing those aspects.

 

[infomon]

Kojin, is there a problem with your capture card? Each of the vids I tried, they had one part where they go crazychoppy, and then the sound sync is off for the rest of the vid.
Oh well, I just turn off sound.... some really great stuff there, I gotta watch them tmrw.

 

[JayBee]

Kojin, is there a problem with your capture card? Each of the vids I tried, they had one part where they go crazychoppy, and then the sound sync is off for the rest of the vid.
Oh well, I just turn off sound.... some really great stuff there, I gotta watch them tmrw.

it was my freinds, but yeah.

 

[Camalange]

I commented in the Winning Steak Cinemas thread.

 

[JayBee]

I commented in the Winning Steak Cinemas thread.

alright. headed there now. thx.

 

[Napilopez]

Hmm did you get my message to play Kojin?

 

[JayBee]

yeah but Ill have to hold off until later, maybe mid week?

 

[JayBee]

Yeah, this one's been bothering me for a bit. The landing lag time on the B-air is deceptive, but I have a feeling that, if buffering movements from landing lag, airdodges and aerials, can be controlled better, we can play 'faster' games with more fluid followups.

VSDJ is cool.

Its similar to what I'm trying to accomplish with the uair crossup situations I'm working on. it seems easier right now. that's why ive been spamming uairs in recent matches. it has seemed to lower my tendancy to spin attack everywhere too. thats always cool.

and yes SDVj is cool.

 

[JayBee]

I was practicing using side b infzy frames (lol) today, using Lucario and Samus and thier charge specials on FD. afterwards i tried to do the same for up smash. the timing was really strict, but Sonic can jump over those moves with Up Smash. but a funny thing happened.

As Samus shot the fully charged shot, and I Upsmashed, my timing was slightly off. but for some reason, not only did the shot not damage sonic, but it actually clashed with Sonic, who continuted to Up smash! 9 i saw the clash bubble. i managed to do this one more time before i logged on to tell u guys. good stuff.


Another thing i worked on was DI. I dont recall any specifif data on sonic so i practiced making the same stage infzy did for his DI testing. put sonic at 120% at had DK F smash him from the left corner. I survived best :

by DI upwards towards the corner+ fair + side B. the side be seemed to save me where Fair alone could not too. you have a move that slow your momentom and pops you forward, yknow..
I kinda knew already, but i wanted to confirm it myself.

and for lols, i was looking at Ivysaurs ftilt. and sonic pawnch (Fsmash) beats it cleanly when spaced.

that's all i have to report. and nice work on dtilt, MagMar !

PS: I'm building another video, similar to the F-throw tutorial, this one about upthrow, and uair. it should be out maybe in a week. im not rushing this one.

 

[~TBS~]

As Samus shot the fully charged shot, and I Upsmashed, my timing was slightly off. but for some reason, not only did the shot not damage sonic, but it actually clashed with Sonic, who continuted to Up smash! 9 i saw the clash bubble. i managed to do this one more time before i logged on to tell u guys. good stuff.

you know whats so weird JayBee? We both did this yesterday, but I did it with Samus. I got the same results, but something else happened, too. I usmashed, and it clanged with the Charge Shot, and Sonic's usmash was canceled. Other times, it either clanged with it and he stayed there, or the infzy frames kicked in, and the shot went through him... Side B Infzy frames worked nicely. Oh, and something else happened, too. Why did the Charge Shot freeze for a second when it went through Sonic, and why did it slow down?

 

[JayBee]

i beleive it is because even though the are "infzy frames" they are different to the invincy frames u get from angelic or maybe even Star, for some reason there is contact, but not damage or knowckback. i dont really know. it may have somethign to do with the elemental properties of the charge shot being negated, but this is theory to me.

 

[Tenki]

grounded moves tend to clang more.

It's not necessarily related, but even during iSDR on Yoshi's Island - even if I can plow through C4s, mines, and grenades, all it takes is a well-placed tilt/jab and it'll clang cancel the iSDR.

 

[Tucker!]

nice thread, i found out a couple things i didnt know, your gunna have to show me a vid of the altered asc spinshot, ive never seen done or heard of that before, so i wanna see what thats all about it sounds cool, kudos for whoever is credited with finding that little number out lol by the way im tucker, i wanna talk to some other players, ive been on here a month and alot of people have been jerk off$ to me and insulted me becuz im not as good a sonic as they are, i look at this for what it is, a fun game that i wanna get better at, so if you wanna help me, talk to me, if you wanna act like twinkletoes did then dont even bother talking to me

 

[infomon]

ive been on here a month and alot of people have been jerk off$ to me and insulted me becuz im not as good a sonic as they are

yeaahhh..... welcome to the sonic boards there's a general suspicion of newcomers here, and I'm sorry about that, it's legit ********.

O wait, were you referring to this:

He got owned by playing too directly against someone that knew how to out-range and out-prioritize him. Not much else to say.

This was not at all meant to be an insult, that's just twinkletoes' style, he's actually trying to give you advice here. "playing too directly", "out-range and out-prioritize"..... you shouldn't be hurt by him saying you got owned, you were facing an amazing Link, I'm sure most of us here woulda been wrecked. Playing more patiently and learning the matchup better, that's reasonable advice when there's a visible gap of skill between players.

Also, do you have WiFi? It's always good for us to battle new ppl, and many of us have different secondaries to help each other out w/ matchup experience.

 

[JayBee]

thats the best idea i heard all day. next to this one:
I uploaded another Kojin/Sonic vid from KojinSagara Productions. Steak. "What U Need" A Kojin/Sonic vid Check it

emphasis is placed on strong uair usage, how awesome it is when lagless, Malcolm throws, and Grand Steak.

discuss.

 

[messiahfreak2000]

dude, that vid was sweet. definitely gonna start incorporating uair more now.

 

[Camalange]

That was pretty awesome Kojin.
I feel bad for the Ganon though.

So I decided to mess around with Uair some more...I found something really weird.

It's situational, and only works at low %s, but man it looks cool.

If you space an Uair JUST RIGHT, so that you only hit with the first hit of the Uair, and not the second...autocancel it into Usmash...it's a true combo. The timing is really weird and so is the spacing, but trust me. It's there. It works on everyone, but I find it to be much easier on small characters (bigger characters usually get hit by the second part of the Uair)

I've only tried this on CPUs, so maybe it's not completely accurate...what do you guys think about it? I might be able to record a clip of it or something...

 

[infomon]

Wow, that's crazysauce.

I think it was Gf2tw who first noticed that Uair's first hit has constant knockback.

It can be used to get ppl onto springs, or to combo between our bounces off a spring or w/e.

 

[Camalange]

I think it was Gf2tw who first noticed that Uair's first hit has constant knockback.

It can be used to get ppl onto springs, or to combo between our bounces off a spring or w/e.

Oh, now that you mention I do remember him bringing this up, but with spring.

Hmm...I say we look more into this. If at high percents, we have a way to knock people onto our springs...that could be cool. I can't remember what kind of data we got on this when he brought it up...or if we got any :/

 

[Boxob.]

I thought everyone knew about Uair's first hit having set knock back. Since always.

It wouldn't make sense if it didn't. D:

 

[Camalange]

Er, wait, I lied.

What I was doing was short hopping over the opponent, fast falling so they got hit with the LAST hit, but it was angled so they get hit like...at his stomach, autocancel, then Usmash.

Sorry D:

It's still cool.

 

[Tenki]

Er, wait, I lied.

What I was doing was short hopping over the opponent, fast falling so they got hit with the LAST hit, but it was angled so they get hit like...at his stomach, autocancel, then Usmash.

Sorry D:

It's still cool.

Oh!

I've done that with U-tilt.

It looked really cool, and I tried to get the timing right. I think I either pulled it off and connected or just pulled it off on thin air in that one me vs Fiction's Snake video.

I think that's what I was trying to do when I U-tilted and got hit by a Snake F-smash lol.

 

[Camalange]

I've done that with U-tilt.

It looked really cool, and I tried to get the timing right. I think I either pulled it off and connected or just pulled it off on thin air in that one me vs Fiction's Snake video.

Oh hey, I remember that!

See, that's probably more usable, but what I suggested is sexy at really low %'s. Kinda like Lucas's Dthrow>SH Uair.

 

[JayBee]

thx. the idea was that i figutred upair could be semi spammed in this manner. autocancelled Uair crossups. sounds like steak to me. and I am an advocate of malcolm throw setups 4ever.

btw, the player DTG has known and played my sonic for about a year now, so he has a good idea of the sonic matchup at this point. he didn't play me over christmas vacation, when i was studying uair more, and before i played the style u saw in the vid. it owned him, because it threw him off. he didnt' expect uair to be that good. I have 42 vids of us playing, i didn't use them all in this vid.


Edit: So I was practicing Side B infzy frames again today. I've decided to test using the infzy frames to escape incoming Tornado spam. now, i still take damage, but with DI, i barely take anything, and leave on the other side, able to dodge, spring, etc, so give this a try as a defensive tactic if someone can and give input plz.