da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
i walk fo rmindgames to throw people off.
-
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Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*
- Thread starter JayBee
- Start date
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
Walking is Sonics biggest mindgame. Your like "HOLY **** HE LOOKS SO COOL WHEN WALKING WITH THOSE ARMS, WILL HE DASH ATTACK NOW.?!?" No, you'll get F-smashed biotch.
Boxob.
Smash Lord
Was I the only one who noticed that the tourney has a mall near it with THE GREAT STEAK and potato company?
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
im I the only one who noticed the kojin should team with boss
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
I like all the walking talk. Remember what........ M3D I think..... said? Sonic is better when he walks and spaces. I don't think that's true but he did have a point.
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
Kojin, this seems like a pretty large tournament which could get a lot of showup. 15+ Wii's doesn't sound bad. I'll ask my mum if I can go.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
SBR said a lot of general crap that wasnt 100% true, but still had true points to it. like teh down tilt thing...
JayBee
Smash Champion
Gamepad tournament officially announced!
go to the page and reply if you need housing, I can help a few people. there have been rule changes too. please read them.
go to the page and reply if you need housing, I can help a few people. there have been rule changes too. please read them.
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
So, it's 7 people instead of 15 lol.
Anyway, would you house a 40 year old virgin with 2 banana scars on both his cheeks and a red afro? If not, I can't come
Anyway, would you house a 40 year old virgin with 2 banana scars on both his cheeks and a red afro? If not, I can't come
thecatinthehat
Smash Master
yeah.. walking is gay.
There's one in Roosevelt Field Mall.Was I the only one who noticed that the tourney has a mall near it with THE GREAT STEAK and potato company?
MAAAADD good fries.
MalcolmM
Smash Lord
jaybee ill c if i can get ppl tocome with me cause i never travel out of state solo. if i can find interest then ill post in the thread about housing.
edit: i asked NL and he reminded me that gametable in long island is on the same day as this. sorry kojin but i cant miss gametable...i have to money match DSF @ that event.
edit: i asked NL and he reminded me that gametable in long island is on the same day as this. sorry kojin but i cant miss gametable...i have to money match DSF @ that event.
Chis
Finally a legend
Lies. Sonic looks like a pimp when he walks.yeah.. walking is gay.
speeding sonic
Smash Apprentice
hey guys, kojin, help my sonic and any other comments are welcomed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W6WX...e=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYZ9j...eature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EVKrGfgUPs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oDCxQXyvzo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTMM0W6-mAM (me vs the cat in the hat)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_loVoAmr-8 (me vs the cat in the hat)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEON1V09Fwo
most was done via wifi (excludin the one wit me fightin captain falcon)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W6WX...e=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYZ9j...eature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EVKrGfgUPs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oDCxQXyvzo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTMM0W6-mAM (me vs the cat in the hat)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_loVoAmr-8 (me vs the cat in the hat)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEON1V09Fwo
most was done via wifi (excludin the one wit me fightin captain falcon)
Chis
Finally a legend
Kojin, do you think a discussion about conditioning is a good idea?
Purposely doing an action when they're limited with options. Causing them to react. Repeating until the keep on doing it, then taking advantaged?
Do you understand what I'm talking about?
Also about reading/adaption.
Purposely doing an action when they're limited with options. Causing them to react. Repeating until the keep on doing it, then taking advantaged?
Do you understand what I'm talking about?
Also about reading/adaption.
JayBee
Smash Champion
yes. i can't do it myself right now; im headed to C3 shortly. i will when i get time. but by all means start it off
infomon
Smash Scientist
Your first two links were broken.
The DK matches were sad because the DK wasn't very good. You did a decent job of predicting him at places where he... shouldn't have been predictable, lol. But you did a lot of charging down-B from out-of-range, then zooming in ..... that shouldn't work very often at all, but it mostly did lol. So idk.
The other matches were more interesting, you did some cool stuff like Dtilts > grab, some interesting mixups and w/e. So you're deffo not bad, you need better opponents and less wifi for us to critique you better tho IMO.
thecatinthehat
Smash Master
infomon
Smash Scientist
oh LOL sorry cat, you fall in the "less wifi" category obv.
srsly, you can see so many opportunities where each other are vulnerable, and going off of predication and lag-misses. You're a good opponent, we just can't judge much in that setting IMO. Mebbe I'm wrong, I don't know how much lag there actually was, but it looked like enough.
srsly, you can see so many opportunities where each other are vulnerable, and going off of predication and lag-misses. You're a good opponent, we just can't judge much in that setting IMO. Mebbe I'm wrong, I don't know how much lag there actually was, but it looked like enough.
JayBee
Smash Champion
so i went to C3...
I got 13th. i think i should be higher though. in any case there were a bunch of close matches capped off by a severe counter pick of Green Greens against a Yoshi. I couldv'e gone higher rank, but oh well. all my matches were close. i tired to represent the sawniks. i think i did that.
---------------
per Chis' request, lets talk about conditioning.
- in the sense of mindgames, its a action or set of actions that are commited to purposely lul the opponent to a set responce, then when that responce becomes telegraphed, the player punishes.
In sonic's game, this is easy to do once you've mastered your ground speed and spacing. Let me explain...
One aspect of Sonic's game that can be overlooked is his ability to camp the landing spot of opponents who are falling down. let us consider this example:
Sonic initiates an Up throw from 0%.
Becuase of the way the game is, the opponent has a combination of 3 options:
A: airdodge the anticipated attack:
B: come down with an attack
C: jump and/or DI away from sonic
with sonic's ground speed, and the use of the broken upair, for example, this can become a great opportunity to rack damage and keep the opponent on the offensive from one throw. here are the answers to each scenario:
A: remember that the air dodge is anticipated. there is no way your opponent knows for sure you will attack immediately every time unless you are predictable, which is another story. but, use this to your advantage with movement. You can...
1: actually attack or delay the attack slightly to punish the airdodge. use uair or bair, but i recommend uair in the early game due to its priority, and two hits.
2: Spin Dash Shield Cancel near thier landing spot. remember you can attack or shield from SD, giving your opponent a 50/50 chance of escaping the follow up. if they AD (air dodge) then shield cancel, regrab, and reset the situation. this works often, depending on how well you camp thier landing spot.
3: Other options include a short hopped empty jump (doing nothing out of your jump) and even dashing around the camping spot. it depends on you.
4: Kojin's mindgame: I also will do quick dashes and SDSC around the landing area to provoke a responce, then DSmash near the landing spot. why? the opponent can be provoked by the rapid cancels to do something, and many moves, like falling bairs, for example, will miss because of DSmashes smaller then average hurtbox.
The purpose of these actions is to scare the opponent into an airdodge so you can punish them upon landing.
B: this is easy, if they think you will attack and tey can prioritize the incoming attack, you can simply shield and grab them on the lag. however, some attacks push them far enough to avoid it, so use another attack, like a tilt to mix it up. sometimes i jab>grab, this seems to work well, as the opponent is expecting the rest of the combo and will block for it, usually.
C: if they jump away, this can give an opening to hit them with an aerial, like uair, or give you more time to camp thier landing spot. this is probably a worse situation technically because this resets the scenario for them, except now jumping is out of the question.
Also, if you connect with an aerial or any moves that reset them into the air, then the sitution above will be reset as well...
There are some character specific responces that may happen, which require you to study for them. remember that all players have moves or strategies that they want to do, and some are very stubburn at wanting to do them, making it easier to condition them, in theory.
lol this was an explanation of sonic mindgames from a single throw. geez. sonic is all about mindgames, isn't he? the more finetuned this aspect of your game is, the quicker and more consistant your improvement will be with sonic.
There is my thoughts on conditioning for now. i execpt a disscussion now, and your thoughts on situations too.
For C3 results click here
I got 13th. i think i should be higher though. in any case there were a bunch of close matches capped off by a severe counter pick of Green Greens against a Yoshi. I couldv'e gone higher rank, but oh well. all my matches were close. i tired to represent the sawniks. i think i did that.
---------------
per Chis' request, lets talk about conditioning.
- in the sense of mindgames, its a action or set of actions that are commited to purposely lul the opponent to a set responce, then when that responce becomes telegraphed, the player punishes.
In sonic's game, this is easy to do once you've mastered your ground speed and spacing. Let me explain...
One aspect of Sonic's game that can be overlooked is his ability to camp the landing spot of opponents who are falling down. let us consider this example:
Sonic initiates an Up throw from 0%.
Becuase of the way the game is, the opponent has a combination of 3 options:
A: airdodge the anticipated attack:
B: come down with an attack
C: jump and/or DI away from sonic
with sonic's ground speed, and the use of the broken upair, for example, this can become a great opportunity to rack damage and keep the opponent on the offensive from one throw. here are the answers to each scenario:
A: remember that the air dodge is anticipated. there is no way your opponent knows for sure you will attack immediately every time unless you are predictable, which is another story. but, use this to your advantage with movement. You can...
1: actually attack or delay the attack slightly to punish the airdodge. use uair or bair, but i recommend uair in the early game due to its priority, and two hits.
2: Spin Dash Shield Cancel near thier landing spot. remember you can attack or shield from SD, giving your opponent a 50/50 chance of escaping the follow up. if they AD (air dodge) then shield cancel, regrab, and reset the situation. this works often, depending on how well you camp thier landing spot.
3: Other options include a short hopped empty jump (doing nothing out of your jump) and even dashing around the camping spot. it depends on you.
4: Kojin's mindgame: I also will do quick dashes and SDSC around the landing area to provoke a responce, then DSmash near the landing spot. why? the opponent can be provoked by the rapid cancels to do something, and many moves, like falling bairs, for example, will miss because of DSmashes smaller then average hurtbox.
The purpose of these actions is to scare the opponent into an airdodge so you can punish them upon landing.
B: this is easy, if they think you will attack and tey can prioritize the incoming attack, you can simply shield and grab them on the lag. however, some attacks push them far enough to avoid it, so use another attack, like a tilt to mix it up. sometimes i jab>grab, this seems to work well, as the opponent is expecting the rest of the combo and will block for it, usually.
C: if they jump away, this can give an opening to hit them with an aerial, like uair, or give you more time to camp thier landing spot. this is probably a worse situation technically because this resets the scenario for them, except now jumping is out of the question.
Also, if you connect with an aerial or any moves that reset them into the air, then the sitution above will be reset as well...
There are some character specific responces that may happen, which require you to study for them. remember that all players have moves or strategies that they want to do, and some are very stubburn at wanting to do them, making it easier to condition them, in theory.
lol this was an explanation of sonic mindgames from a single throw. geez. sonic is all about mindgames, isn't he? the more finetuned this aspect of your game is, the quicker and more consistant your improvement will be with sonic.
There is my thoughts on conditioning for now. i execpt a disscussion now, and your thoughts on situations too.
JayBee
Smash Champion
me too. hopefully ...
~TBS~
Smash Champion
dude! Good Stuff, Kojin. I want to see some vids. oh, and nice discussion about Sonic's mindgames. That uthrow>dash behind>SDSC>regrab? awesome. i can really use that.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
all up throw regrabs are known as KID CGs...
because im awesome
because im awesome
~TBS~
Smash Champion
^^This. agreed.
but still, as we all know, a predictable Sonic is easy to fight as a level 1 jigglypuff. (seriously)
I was told I was a really good Sonic from tourney goers, but I was predictable. How in the world do you NOT be predictable? I mean, sure it was my first tourney, so I expected to crack under pressure. (is that a john?) But know, i incorporate many things into my style, like KIDS CG's, Puffball's SH FF bairs, and many other things. Now i dont think I am predictable, but still, i want to get better.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
when i have predictability issues, i do 2 things.
1. Be impulsive. throw out a laggy down air or a running upsmash out of nowhere just to throw people off.
2. Think about everythign you know how to do with sonic. and than do something you havent done yet. For example, if you go back to my KID AT thread, and do any of those things that you havent done in the middle of the match.
At the beginning of a stock my opponents know that I love to pull KID CGs, so sometimes they will spam sidesteps so as not to get grabbed, when i notice this, I like to stop running, walk up to them, possibly do a SHAD and go into downtilt comboes, because theres no way they are expecting it when ive trained them to look for grabs.
its just thinking about everything you know how to do with sonic, and doing something you havent done yet. thats why its so important to know all of sonics capabilities.
1. Be impulsive. throw out a laggy down air or a running upsmash out of nowhere just to throw people off.
2. Think about everythign you know how to do with sonic. and than do something you havent done yet. For example, if you go back to my KID AT thread, and do any of those things that you havent done in the middle of the match.
At the beginning of a stock my opponents know that I love to pull KID CGs, so sometimes they will spam sidesteps so as not to get grabbed, when i notice this, I like to stop running, walk up to them, possibly do a SHAD and go into downtilt comboes, because theres no way they are expecting it when ive trained them to look for grabs.
its just thinking about everything you know how to do with sonic, and doing something you havent done yet. thats why its so important to know all of sonics capabilities.
Chis
Finally a legend
Good stuff Kojin. Maybe conditioning can be used for easier kill set ups at lower %? Any ideas anyone?
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
theres tons of mindgamey stuff you cna pull off for earlier kills, its kinda stuff you have to figure out on your own tho
JayBee
Smash Champion
and you have to practice it to death so you can get as much as you can. i got 78% from 0% at C3 off of that scenario i talked about before he got out/ i messed up. i think that's a record for me...
MalcolmM
Smash Lord
i think u should play against sonic more often kojin. cause if u can c what makes u jump or react poorly and then try and put ur opponents in that same situation...u will c results. u will c that when u r playing against sonic u r gonna camp alot of kill moves. so c what makes u break out of that habit. I wrote out alot of stuff b4 this paragraph but i deleted it all cause...i need to keep some of my stuff to myself lol. cause the upthrow side-b cancel thing hasnt worked in quite some time...every1 has seen it on youtube and ****...so imma leave a few things off of the boards. feel free to aim me about it tho yo.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
yo son, thats messed up malcom,
I used to think that way, but i realised that that line of thought was wrong, and thats how my AT thread started.
dont be dirty son, its not cool to hold out on your friends.
I used to think that way, but i realised that that line of thought was wrong, and thats how my AT thread started.
dont be dirty son, its not cool to hold out on your friends.
MalcolmM
Smash Lord
i would never...but everyone on the boards are not my friends. i will write about it in the sBR. a land where only my blue blur folk can read the miiiiiiiiiiindgames.
Chis
Finally a legend
lol everyone just wants to do the same cool stuff you do.
But I think holding back wont help Sonic's meta game. People didn't hold back about things like the ASC :/
And the above quote sounds kind of like M2K.
JayBee
Smash Champion
@Malcolm:
I DO need to play more sonics. I want to play more sonics. problems is, i never get to play them offline. ( I think there are maybe 3-4 notable GOOD sonic's in VA/MD me included and we are not that close to each other.) im always looking for good sonics to play against and ask questions to. Its funny though, that you feel that way about the upthrow situation, because i feel like it should have been known for a looong time, but guess what? im constantly seeing either sonics that dont do it/ know about it OR find opponents who still dont know about it and get sucked into it easily. Even the ones who i've played that know about it, the best they can do it just make it harder, but not obsolete. and lets not get it twisted, im not saying this is fool proof but as for me, ima keep doing it until i burn it in my opponents heads. but we can PM about this issue later, because you still havent fully explained to me the bad habits you keep referring to.
I DO need to play more sonics. I want to play more sonics. problems is, i never get to play them offline. ( I think there are maybe 3-4 notable GOOD sonic's in VA/MD me included and we are not that close to each other.) im always looking for good sonics to play against and ask questions to. Its funny though, that you feel that way about the upthrow situation, because i feel like it should have been known for a looong time, but guess what? im constantly seeing either sonics that dont do it/ know about it OR find opponents who still dont know about it and get sucked into it easily. Even the ones who i've played that know about it, the best they can do it just make it harder, but not obsolete. and lets not get it twisted, im not saying this is fool proof but as for me, ima keep doing it until i burn it in my opponents heads. but we can PM about this issue later, because you still havent fully explained to me the bad habits you keep referring to.
player1sonic
Smash Rookie
Ok, this is off topic but I've scoured the Sonic boards for an answer to this question I have and couldn't find anything, so I figured I'd just ask the Sonic Lab and hope somebody can either shoot this down or run with it.
I know 2 things: that Sonics up smash has a few invincibility frames when he is actually jumping up into a ball, and that the boost smash propels Sonic forward while using this up smash. So in theory couldn't the boost smash be an absolutely incredible approach? Since Sonic is moving during the boost smash the invincibility frames are spread out over a small distance. A good Sonic player could position this distance right in front of your opponent as you're "jumping" towards them. Therefore the hurt box would reappear right as Sonic is touching the opponent and past all danger of being attacked. My theory is that you could use this to plow through walls of pain or charge a MK or Marth without fear of being out-prioritized by their ridiculous fairs.
So there, if somebody has already proven this idea to be total crap in some other thread (or on a different page of this one for that matter) I apologize for bringing it up again, but I've got to know if this actually works. Please respond.
-Sonic Rules
I know 2 things: that Sonics up smash has a few invincibility frames when he is actually jumping up into a ball, and that the boost smash propels Sonic forward while using this up smash. So in theory couldn't the boost smash be an absolutely incredible approach? Since Sonic is moving during the boost smash the invincibility frames are spread out over a small distance. A good Sonic player could position this distance right in front of your opponent as you're "jumping" towards them. Therefore the hurt box would reappear right as Sonic is touching the opponent and past all danger of being attacked. My theory is that you could use this to plow through walls of pain or charge a MK or Marth without fear of being out-prioritized by their ridiculous fairs.
So there, if somebody has already proven this idea to be total crap in some other thread (or on a different page of this one for that matter) I apologize for bringing it up again, but I've got to know if this actually works. Please respond.
-Sonic Rules
infomon
Smash Scientist
Welcome, player1sonic... nice first post.
Theoretically that should make boost-Usmashing a reasonably safe approach, but IMO there just aren't enough invincibility frames. Most characters should have some move that, if timed properly, will hit us before or after the invincy frames are over. It will come down to a subtle timing/spacing war.... it's possible that with lots of practice, we could learn to know exactly when we'll have the best window of opportunity with it. I'm thinking the invincy frames are especially useful if we're sliding under a platform, say on Battlefield, where the hitbox of the Usmash hits the opponent's feet; and the invincy frames keep us safe from a Dtilt/SH Dair/get-up attack/whatever else. idk tho.
I'm sure it helps at times (like if the opponent feels rushed by the boost-Usmash and tries to jab into the invincy frames lol), but it's probably rare; I think it will come down to a misteak from the opponent. Just IMO tho.
Theoretically that should make boost-Usmashing a reasonably safe approach, but IMO there just aren't enough invincibility frames. Most characters should have some move that, if timed properly, will hit us before or after the invincy frames are over. It will come down to a subtle timing/spacing war.... it's possible that with lots of practice, we could learn to know exactly when we'll have the best window of opportunity with it. I'm thinking the invincy frames are especially useful if we're sliding under a platform, say on Battlefield, where the hitbox of the Usmash hits the opponent's feet; and the invincy frames keep us safe from a Dtilt/SH Dair/get-up attack/whatever else. idk tho.
I'm sure it helps at times (like if the opponent feels rushed by the boost-Usmash and tries to jab into the invincy frames lol), but it's probably rare; I think it will come down to a misteak from the opponent. Just IMO tho.
JayBee
Smash Champion
the timing is so strict that im sure that it would be very hard to force this into your game. plus, if you mees up, then what? not enough frames imo, meaning unreliable at best. it can happen, but you probably revolutionalize the sonic game with it most likely...
thecatinthehat
Smash Master
So, it turns out, that I actually have a good chance of coming to this tourney.
Super_Sonic8677
Smash Lord
So, something amazing happened happened tonight. I was in a 3 for all, and 2 of us were Sonic. We were on FD. All of us were around in the 140% range. The Link ran into the other Sonic who unleashed his Fsmash and Sonic Paunched him across the stage. I was on the other side with my to the other Sonic back when it hit. I double jumped and intercepted the incoming Link with a boxobair to the face!
It was like an amazing, gigantic,juicy Steak being taken in all at once.
Let's see if we can do it again, only on purpose.
discuss.
It was like an amazing, gigantic,juicy Steak being taken in all at once.
Let's see if we can do it again, only on purpose.
discuss.