Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*

[Espy Rose]

You seem to be pretty perceptive when it comes to analyzing the playstyles of the Sonics on the board.
Would you perhaps analyze my style? It's for a small experiment that I'm planning.

Much thanks.

My vids can be found in the WSC thread, of course.

 

[player1sonic]

Thanks for the constructive criticism. Is it possible there's a way to use Sonics numerous fake outs to force opponents to the perfect spacing without risking punishment?

 

[ShadowLink84]

I should hit Tenki concerning the priority point thing.
Really hard.

*glares at tenki*

BAD!

@player1sonic: Yes. In fact, much of sonic's fake outs involve controlling spacing. For example if you look at malcolm or X, their behavior not only baits the opponent, it also involves controlling spacing with as little risk to Sonic as possible.

 

[thecatinthehat]

Actually....there's a very good chance of me going.

It turns out that I'm going to be in Fredericksburg that weekend.

I'm going with my Dad to visit some family.

hmmmmm... this could be interesting.

 

[Chis]

Is using the SDC repeating a good way to condition an opponent in certain situations, like that landing area camping worked well with it. So can it be used with Fthrow an low %, then which up with grabs?

 

[player1sonic]

As food for thought, it's possible to hold Z and charge the up smash during the boost. This makes it easier to connect with the smash because now it's more of an anticipation thing than a spacing issue. It makes the move a little bit more flexible, or at least I think it does. Any thoughts anybody?

 

[JayBee]

Actually....there's a very good chance of me going.

It turns out that I'm going to be in Fredericksburg that weekend.

I'm going with my Dad to visit some family.

hmmmmm... this could be interesting.

awesome. can't wait to meet you sonic's personally. i feel so alone in fredericksburg as a sonic main...

You seem to be pretty perceptive when it comes to analyzing the playstyles of the Sonics on the board.
Would you perhaps analyze my style? It's for a small experiment that I'm planning.

Much thanks.

My vids can be found in the WSC thread, of course.

LOL, i'd do it. i love to. I'll try to have something tommorow. Im playing SC4 with a bunch of friends now... i suck at it...

 

[JayBee]

Is using the SDC repeating a good way to condition an opponent in certain situations, like that landing area camping worked well with it. So can it be used with Fthrow an low %, then which up with grabs?

you talking about spin dash shield cancel or spin dash counter?

but the spin dash cancel is used to disguise your true intention to regrab even better, because it can just as easily be an attack, right? that's how i operate it in those situations....

 

[Chis]

So...

High%

Down tilt trip > Fox trot into forward smash?

Kill set up?

 

[Camalange]

So...

High%

Down tilt trip > Fox trot into forward smash?

Kill set up?

Interesting...

Reminds me of Lucas's multiple Dtilt trip > Fsmash shenanigans, but the Dtilt just has such little range and knockback, that the smash is pretty much guaranteed.

I wonder though if the Foxtrot > Fsmash would actually be fast enough though to be effective...

Will experiment soon.

 

[JayBee]

yeah it does sound cool. let use know what you think later.

once im done playing smash with my company Ill probably look at puffballs vids since he asked for style analyzing. it actually helps he out when i do that stuff..
Im playing Sage and ThunderHorse, btw...

 

[Chis]

I don't think Sonic's Down tilt can trip in the kill ranges, It (sweet spot) just sends them in a near horizontal trajectory. Silly Sakurai.


Someone confirm this?

 

[Tenki]

I should hit Tenki concerning the priority point thing.
Really hard.

*glares at tenki*

BAD!

@player1sonic: Yes. In fact, much of sonic's fake outs involve controlling spacing. For example if you look at malcolm or X, their behavior not only baits the opponent, it also involves controlling spacing with as little risk to Sonic as possible.

lol malcolmx

what priority point?
oh, that... hahaha

Welcome, player1sonic... nice first post.

Theoretically that should make boost-Usmashing a reasonably safe approach,

No, it wouldn't.

Invincibility doesn't make a move a safe approach. Moves with a combination of:
- Short startup
- Long range
- Little ending/commitment time

are safe approaches.

U-smash has crappy ending lag and startup lag, so it's still pretty unsafe. The invincibility frames just make it a more worthy punisher move.

So...

High%

Down tilt trip > Fox trot into forward smash?

Kill set up?

I don't think Sonic's Down tilt can trip in the kill ranges, It (sweet spot) just sends them in a near horizontal trajectory. Silly Sakurai.


Someone confirm this?

I think so.

Even if it did work, Foxtrot > F-smash is too slow and they'd probably have rolled or gotten up already.

It'd be more of a D-tilt > tech chase F-smash.

 

[JayBee]

Puffball/Espy no Style: This is a good example of an agressive Sonic that extends the damage off of mistake as much as he can. He is solid in all forms of followups, tech chasing, and edgegaurding tactics to ensure maximum damage off of one error. This hyper aggressive mindset has a tendency to backfire often ( and it has at times) but he still does it every time; clearly the reward is worth the risk. To combat this he has developed his durability to make up for any mistakes that would normally kill a Sonic, meaning that comeback wins are very plausible.


Ground movement is superb and polished, darn near flawless at times. he can run from attacks and still be able to turn back and punish in time. His use of DDP gives him even more ability to do that, and when used multiple times, his sonic looks even faster than average. As for attacking, this sonic in particular loves his F-Smash, and uses it as an all purpose tool, to punish, to bait, and to KO. How is this possible? he complements this with a rigourous display of jab and tilt usage in close range. He isn't looking for grab setups as often as Malcolm or myself, but that's because he loves dtilts as his primary setup. dtilt to dtilt, dtilt to jab(s), and dtilt to uptilt are common occurances in his game, his skill with this part of his game allows him to use FSmash more often in early and mid game because the move is quickly replenished. add that to his normally aggro playstyle, and he barely notices the degeneraion.

His air game, revolves around his Bair, in a similar all-purpose method to the FSmash. and using his speed to set them up. Bair is used more as a spacing tool, but when it connects he follows up well. Until the opponent is caught up in a mistake, he sitcks with Bair. It may be a bit overused though. He uses the other aerials mostly during chases, when its time to KO, and when he edgegaurding. Outside of that his Spin Dash offense seems to be for the purpose of sending them in the air for combos and follow ups, which also supports his Bair usage and balances out the air game.

His edgegame is IMO one of his more polished ponts. I've seen every method of edgegaurding from him, and not only does he do them, he is almost brazen with it, going far off the edge and out of his way to edgegaurd the likes of Metaknight. On the flip side, all forms of DI, momentum cancelling, and other methods of recovery are in his grasp. He can gimp early if you're not careful, but even if the opponent is good, he has the potential to live near the 150%-200% range easily. a very nasty combination indeed.

If there was one weakpoint in his offense, it would be his throws. This Sonic looks for throws often, but is not nearly as diverse as Malcolm and almost exclusively sticks with DThrow. This can be very dangerous, due to the probability of a close tech, leaving him wide open. his tech chase is strong but if his opponent ever consistantly teched Dthrow, it can threaten to shut down a large portion of his game. I recommend spending some time and learning to use UpThrow and Forward throw in the manner similar to Malcolm or Kojin to compensate. If he had already, then he could be the best sonic at racking damage from 1 mistake. (scary..lol you can do it Puffball!)

Style Verdict: Combo/Ground/Edge
Immediate results from observing vids: tilt usage, more aggressive edge tactics

 

[Browny]

oohh very nice

do me next plz lol? ill find latest tourney vids

Vs Wolf
(steak)

Vs MK, Snake
(MK IS GAY LOL)

Ganondorf x3
(second match was a lol and a half. I dont really expect you to watch these 3 since ganon isnt exactly hard to play against)

Vs Ganon, Wolf
(my brothers wolf is ******** and spammy, but i got around it in the end)

 

[Tenki]

EDIT: There is a "Kojin" that apparently plays Lucus. That is not me, it is clearly some imposter. I swear. I looked up my name on youtube and I find clips of this player. I don't play the Mama's Boyz, I swear...

lol MucusLucus

hey, keep in mind not everyone views pages in default 15 posts-per-page settings.

and I give you this link to update into the profile.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6149854#post6149854

 

[Chis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W6WX...e=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYZ9j...eature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EVKrGfgUPs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oDCxQXyvzo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTMM0W6-mAM (me vs the cat in the hat)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_loVoAmr-8 (me vs the cat in the hat)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEON1V09Fwo
most was done via wifi (excludin the one wit me fightin captain falcon)

Kojin, do you mind?

 

[Khaoz]

Thats a really good Espy analysis.

 

[JayBee]

thx. ill do another one sometime this week.

 

[MalcolmM]

yo kojin do me next and u gotta tell me the downsides. be brutal on the downsides!

 

[JayBee]

hey malcolm I thought i did one for you already. I'll link the ones I've done so far. I can go into additional detail if they really want me too, after reading what i wrote about them, because i now realize that the first ones i did were kinda short in comparison.

Playstyles Analyzed:

Tenki(page 30)

Mr. 3000(pg 30)

Malcolm(pg 30)

RATS(pg 36)

Chis (pg41)

Puffball aka Espy (pg 49)

*New*

there ya go

 

[da K.I.D.]

no offense to you JB, but you know I was the originator of up throw shenanigans....

 

[JayBee]

really? that's wierd, the first tims i ever saw it was from malcolm, seriously. maybe you expounded on them, but the basic concept i first saw from him... idk...


man, do i have to change Malcolm Throw Setups to KID Throws? that's a LOT of posts to edit...

 

[MalcolmM]

lol call them kid throws from now on. what does it matter? but i never knew u did my style before or i would have commented on it. its very interesting to read what i do now i just need people to write about what i should stop doing.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i call it the KIC CG when I pull it off, if you were in that stream yesterday while i was playing owna refers to it as KID chaingrabs when he was commenting on my matches.

 

[~TBS~]

IMO, from what people tell me, i punish WAY too hard. and when i am not punishing, i am over there racking up damage quickly, but see, i need help still. Vids are on their way, Kojin, i can get them to you soon. if snow is on my side, maybe tommorow.

 

[JayBee]

LOL that's cool. i did come in mad late in the feed though. i'll call them KID throws then.
*sobs* i wish i had a cool tech named after me...

in anycase, i need to list the people who asked me for style analysis that i havent done... If I forgot your name please speak up.

Style Analysis due:

SonicMaster5
Speeding Sonic (ithink)
djbrowny


i think that's it... and malcolm wants a reiteration of what he should improve. I can do that too. I'll look at some vids again for him later tonight...

 

[thecatinthehat]

in anycase, i need to list the people who asked me for style analysis that i havent done... If I forgot your name please speak up.

Style Analysis due:

SonicMaster5
Speeding Sonic (ithink)
djbrowny

*ahem*

D:

Nah its cool.

I gotta get some more vids up anyways.

 

[JayBee]

haha u do that. im too busy to care

jk... or AM I?

 

[aeghrur]

Kojin is 222222222 good. Heck, sonic boards are too good, we got people finding techs, people applying them, people expanding our metagame, and people coaching others such as KOJIN and Tenki.

 

[JayBee]

lol too goods indeed...

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I'll throw up some vids for review once I get a Dazzle.

Can't wait to see it.

Terios runs into jabs. What a tard.

 

[JayBee]

... yes he is...
but yeah ill be waiting i guess...


good night guys...

 

[JayBee]

New Video coming up soon!!

Not only do i still have video from other matches in recent memory, but hopefully this week i'll have more material agaisnt more characters and more players. I found the hot music to use for it, im ready to get the recordeing today.

KojinSagara Productions presnets:
"マッハ スピード ジェネレーション"
"Mach Speed Generation" coming this February!


why the japanese? this time, i plan to put my tags in Japanese as well as english so that Japanese brawlers can find it easier. gl on that...

 

[aeghrur]

Oh dang, that's cool, lol.
You should tell them japanese sonics to visit these boards, lol.
Mix metagames.

 

[JayBee]

I am of mixed metagame, my friend lol,

?: how many have made an effort to jump at your opponent with an airdodge, anticipating an attack/ forced airdodge attempt? as thier attack misses and cools down, you reach ground and are ready to capitiolize, IMO. Its something that many characters in brawl do, but Sonics, not so much. I kept a note of it but didn't think about it until recently, when I faced a calvin's falco this week. before that i tested it against one of my friends, and though it worked i put it on the back burner. I thought for a sonic player, using it more deliberately could help the mindgames a bit.

again, not something groundbreaking, but it is something the sonics, in particular the best ones, do not do often...

example: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZEkk0lpZ098&feature=channel_page from about :53 on, i although i was being too ignorant with the idea...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uUgqRN8jrHE&feature=channel_page starts at 1:40, and is a better representation of the idea i had in mind.

Discuss.

edit: have you guys heard of any other Sonics from Japan? any vids? In any case, if an effort was made to get japanese smashers to cooperate us, then it can only do better for the metagame of sonic. so far, all i've done was add japanese tags to my combo vids, and i've started surfing for japanese chats and forums to post links for them to see, so im starting off small. youy guys should do the same. i command it.

 

[Tenki]

lol don't get over predictable with it though.

Like, anyone who plays on 1v1 often (at an above-normal level ... whatever that is) on wifi is almost conditioned to punish airdodges, but yeah, it can be useful sometimes x]

 

[Jim Morrison]

Kojin, we can't all speak Japanese. That's like me asking you to post in Dutch forums.
But yea, SHADing is good, I just don't think much of it for Sonciii.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I do it tons with fox, not as much with sonic,
SHAD to grab would probably be the best option.

also, its easy to punish, if you are good.

 

[Anthinus]

Hi guys! I was messing a bit with dash dance, runnig dash, foxtrot and pivoting (If the thing I'm going to say is old, just tell me and forget it , remember I've been out of boards for months) and find something interesting... I see you can use FSmash (stutter step...) at the very very end of a foxtrot "surfing" thing... When you foxtrot and immediatly hold back, you'll don't disturb the surfing momentum, at the very end of the foxtrot animation just smash control stick forward +/and c-stick in the direction you want to FSmash. If you do this very fast you'll get that stutter step around thing that we all know about... or a running attack...

That thing increase the distance to FSmash but slow down the process, maybe can be useful to mindgame and place a good FSmash, but it have to be tested...

When you foxtrot and keep it to the end WHILE holding back and then press Z (don't remember if holding Z works), after the surfing animation Sonic will do a pivot grab. To foxtrot and hold back just do a the same you do to do a SDpivot but only with the Control stick (smash forward, immediatly smash backwards) then hold back and at the end control stick Forward + Fsamsh...

If this have been heard before just forget about this... If not, I leave it in your hands Kojin...