Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
I sometimes do the foxtrot surf for lulz 
I never F-smash though
I never F-smash though
-
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Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*
- Thread starter JayBee
- Start date
JayBee
Smash Champion
i know i dont do it much at all, but im sure this was known, then again if that was the case why havent i adopted it? I need to force this in my game iguess... now i have a reason to play smash tonight... beisdes working on my KID throws. maybe its me, or my friends are starting to understand it better... maybe both... ive been trying to extend the damage as much as humanly possible, i got 0 to death two days ago in one match, but most encounters do 35-40% average, plus a tech chase/ reset opportunity depending how well im mindgaming atm. especially since GIMR can tech Dthrow now... and he plays Falco against me... gay...
but don't stop looking for stuff though, Ant... i kinda got writers block this week, and still pissed i can't go to CoT4... not enough moneies... *drops cap on floor and grabs random guitar*
I need to force this in my game iguess... now i have a reason to play smash tonight... beisdes working on my KID throws. maybe its me, or my friends are starting to understand it better... maybe both... ive been trying to extend the damage as much as humanly possible, i got 0 to death two days ago in one match, but most encounters do 35-40% average, plus a tech chase/ reset opportunity depending how well im mindgaming atm. especially since GIMR can tech Dthrow now... and he plays Falco against me... gay...but don't stop looking for stuff though, Ant... i kinda got writers block this week, and still pissed i can't go to CoT4... not enough moneies... *drops cap on floor and grabs random guitar*
Anthinus
Smash Journeyman
K k... Take a look at that long-foxtrot to FSmash thing, If you have problems to pull it out just tell me. About KID grabs, people get very used to it if you do it often. I guess you have good ways to mix it up... I usually just shield, SD pivot away or behind them (then realese or cancel), Shield canceled dash away and then running grab them...i know i dont do it much at all, but im sure this was known, then again if that was the case why havent i adopted it?
but don't stop looking for stuff though, Ant... i kinda got writers block this week, and still pissed i can't go to CoT4... not enough moneies... *drops cap on floor and grabs random guitar*
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
So I've been fighting a few Links recently, and it's awesome. They tell me I mindgame them, but I don't even know what my mindgames are :D
Also, boomerang surfing is awesome... You can do D-airs in one spot on them.
Also, boomerang surfing is awesome... You can do D-airs in one spot on them.
JayBee
Smash Champion
this is my thinking process when I KID CGs....
my first mix up idea during kid grabs is usually to side B in place, then cancel during the counter attack/ airdodge, then regrab. the reason i SD is that I feel i mask my intentions better then just me standing there, like i see others do. plus, if they DI I can still cancel and approach, or foxtrot in that direction quickly before Side B cancel. In addition, i also have the option of attacking out of SDVJ. The next option I consider is a quick Aerial, which im sure most sonics do in the first place. My next option is to empty jump to get another delayed aerial or land and grab as they airdodge the empty jump. I also will Up Smash thier landing spot to reset the air scenario (rarely I do) and lastly the option i give myself is to either run around and/ or multiple side B cancels near the approximate landing spot. If run, im looking to shield grab the possible counter/allow them to land to attempt another throw (usually with Jab>throw mindagame) OR to use Side B cancel nearby to encourage airdodges/ sidesteping as they fall, and DSmash. If D Smash is succsessful, tech chase.
usually after the second upthrow, assuming its from 0% if I get a third one, i use Fthrow to mix up the look, but i follow the same line of thought. after this the mindgames stem from using fakes with upair, keeping them airborne in hopes of additional damage from them guessing wrong.
If I'm good, I can get at least 70% or higher from 0%, and a possible tech chase/ edgegaurd opportunity (depending on stage) but usually the amount is towards the 40% range. btw, i consider the numbers i just said as %s I can dish out using this line of thought before either the opponent hits me away, or restores spacing.
like I said i am trying to extend the KID CG idea as far as I can for u guys, but this is the first time i wrote about how i planned on doing this, and I am proud to say there is success despite me constantly doing it to my closest friends, who KNOW my playstyle. A very small sample of this is in "What U Need," my latest Sonic vid, and I hope to show u another level of KID Sonic Setups in the next one. (KID Sonic setups: a series ofoffensive mindgames and chasing manuvers derived from the opportunites made using KID CGs at its base)
lol discuss...
my first mix up idea during kid grabs is usually to side B in place, then cancel during the counter attack/ airdodge, then regrab. the reason i SD is that I feel i mask my intentions better then just me standing there, like i see others do. plus, if they DI I can still cancel and approach, or foxtrot in that direction quickly before Side B cancel. In addition, i also have the option of attacking out of SDVJ. The next option I consider is a quick Aerial, which im sure most sonics do in the first place. My next option is to empty jump to get another delayed aerial or land and grab as they airdodge the empty jump. I also will Up Smash thier landing spot to reset the air scenario (rarely I do) and lastly the option i give myself is to either run around and/ or multiple side B cancels near the approximate landing spot. If run, im looking to shield grab the possible counter/allow them to land to attempt another throw (usually with Jab>throw mindagame) OR to use Side B cancel nearby to encourage airdodges/ sidesteping as they fall, and DSmash. If D Smash is succsessful, tech chase.
usually after the second upthrow, assuming its from 0% if I get a third one, i use Fthrow to mix up the look, but i follow the same line of thought. after this the mindgames stem from using fakes with upair, keeping them airborne in hopes of additional damage from them guessing wrong.
If I'm good, I can get at least 70% or higher from 0%, and a possible tech chase/ edgegaurd opportunity (depending on stage) but usually the amount is towards the 40% range. btw, i consider the numbers i just said as %s I can dish out using this line of thought before either the opponent hits me away, or restores spacing.
like I said i am trying to extend the KID CG idea as far as I can for u guys, but this is the first time i wrote about how i planned on doing this, and I am proud to say there is success despite me constantly doing it to my closest friends, who KNOW my playstyle. A very small sample of this is in "What U Need," my latest Sonic vid, and I hope to show u another level of KID Sonic Setups in the next one. (KID Sonic setups: a series ofoffensive mindgames and chasing manuvers derived from the opportunites made using KID CGs at its base)
lol discuss...
Anthinus
Smash Journeyman
That's the same stuff I do, but I have to add:
-Empty SH, space away, then Utilt...
- Run away or behind his/her back and shield cancel a.s.a.p., when they are about to land or after their attack a well placed running grab (I prefer this over the running turnaround grab stuff, I feel it faster).
* I got a revelation... Maybe placing a spring under your opponents after the throw can be a great surprise, If they though they were about to buffer something on ground they'll be doing something stupid on air and right below you ready to be punished... It don't add too much damage but could be useful... Somehow... Have to try
BTW Kojin... Did you test a bit of foxtrot Fsmash stuff?
-Empty SH, space away, then Utilt...
- Run away or behind his/her back and shield cancel a.s.a.p., when they are about to land or after their attack a well placed running grab (I prefer this over the running turnaround grab stuff, I feel it faster).
* I got a revelation... Maybe placing a spring under your opponents after the throw can be a great surprise, If they though they were about to buffer something on ground they'll be doing something stupid on air and right below you ready to be punished... It don't add too much damage but could be useful... Somehow... Have to try
BTW Kojin... Did you test a bit of foxtrot Fsmash stuff?
JayBee
Smash Champion
work on that and see what you get. and im sure that i've done it before. i dont do it often in real matches, for some reason i mess up . ill just work on it more.
I'll try the spring option tonight.
I'll try the spring option tonight.
Anthinus
Smash Journeyman
You mess up probably cuz you dont smash properly the control stick when you input the foxtrot and then back (have to smash quickly in one direction, then in the other one and hold), or you don't hold back enough (If you dont hold back a bit you'll get the running attack). The timing is hardish and a bit difficult to get used to it. I hope that help you work on it easier .
Ok, good luck with the UpThrow to spring stuff... I'll test it tomorrow at 4 pm (I can only play an hour tomorrow against JanuS... I got a busy life, poor me... LOL). Sometimes I uptilt/turnaround utilt after the upthrow at lower %s, but isn't good against all characters (Marth and Falco for example, loves to Dair you, that before you KID CG them the first times... This is better when they realize that Dair will only put it easier for us to grab them and begin using airdodge instead
. Big characters are easier to upthrow>uptilt).
I'll test the airdodge you posted before... Something comes to my mind: SHAD to pivot grab a.s.a. you reach ground... Sounds good. Could that be a viable option?
.Ok, good luck with the UpThrow to spring stuff... I'll test it tomorrow at 4 pm (I can only play an hour tomorrow against JanuS... I got a busy life, poor me... LOL). Sometimes I uptilt/turnaround utilt after the upthrow at lower %s, but isn't good against all characters (Marth and Falco for example, loves to Dair you, that before you KID CG them the first times... This is better when they realize that Dair will only put it easier for us to grab them and begin using airdodge instead
. Big characters are easier to upthrow>uptilt).I'll test the airdodge you posted before... Something comes to my mind: SHAD to pivot grab a.s.a. you reach ground... Sounds good. Could that be a viable option?
JayBee
Smash Champion
its possible. i think so. ive tried it. i just wanna see other opinions too...
Anthinus
Smash Journeyman
The spring thing works pretty well. The opponent don't expect it and when they realize whats happenig they get hit by any aerial move LOL. I hit every aerial exept Nair.
I did an Upthrow followed by a HA and worked... I tryied the airdodge and I can't give it a good use yet.
What about you Kojin?
I did an Upthrow followed by a HA and worked
... I tryied the airdodge and I can't give it a good use yet.What about you Kojin?
Browny
Smash Hater
Ive been doing lots of uthrow -bair recently. Most people will AD straight out of the uthrow in which case the bair will hit them once the lose invincibility frames and the hitbox is large enough you can SH it straight up and follow their DI and it will hit unless they move like jiggs in the air its pretty risky though. Works awesome when theres a platform directly above as sometimes they wont be able to tech the fall quick enough in which case bair is very safe to use
its pretty risky though. Works awesome when theres a platform directly above as sometimes they wont be able to tech the fall quick enough in which case bair is very safe to use
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
speaking of back air.
i used to shy away from up throws between the 40-90% range. but now im finding myself using them then anyways, because my opponent love to let me either regular jump or iSDJ forward adn than jump backwards and back air, for some silly reason its timed to hit them out of their airdodge like everytime. I think I saw someone bring this idea up a while back as a way to get an up throw followup on people with really good down airs.
it might have been GF but im not sure.
i used to shy away from up throws between the 40-90% range. but now im finding myself using them then anyways, because my opponent love to let me either regular jump or iSDJ forward adn than jump backwards and back air, for some silly reason its timed to hit them out of their airdodge like everytime. I think I saw someone bring this idea up a while back as a way to get an up throw followup on people with really good down airs.
it might have been GF but im not sure.
JayBee
Smash Champion
ive spent all evening playing soul calibur and TvC...
I liked AD for me after I up throw, so i added that to my game. i try to do it so i AD through them. I want to also use it more for my approach, especially against those with good aerials. idk...
im supposed ot have company over saturday, that would be the best opportunity this week to work on this stuff.
UpThrow>HA is lol. i never ever thought that was viable, but then again, sometimes i accidentally HA and it hits. ill give that up throw spring thing too.The spring thing works pretty well. The opponent don't expect it and when they realize whats happenig they get hit by any aerial move LOL. I hit every aerial exept Nair.
I did an Upthrow followed by a HA and worked
What about you Kojin?
I liked AD for me after I up throw, so i added that to my game. i try to do it so i AD through them. I want to also use it more for my approach, especially against those with good aerials. idk...
im supposed ot have company over saturday, that would be the best opportunity this week to work on this stuff.
JayBee
Smash Champion
I was watching squirtiles unique turn around animation which hydroplaning and the like derived from, and i was testign to see if sonic had something similar, since he has a good slide from foxtrot and his turn around animation is unique too. this is prelim testing. what i got was somthing pretty interesting...
Testing Sonic's Turn Around Animation.
best example is around :25 - :29
What I tried to do was during the turn around, buffer forward, then softly tap back, and there was a noticible slide afterwards. I only did it a few times, so teh miximum potentioal is not close to realization, most likely. but he does slide forward, i think i got a character length at best, maybe a bit more. I recorded a little bit and it'll be on youtube so u can get where im coming from.
if u can, try to replicate this and see what u can get outta it. im anticipating that if this is the case the timing is strict. start testing.
discuss.
PS: also about the AD idea: it seems that depending on the timing you can get it off the floor and without the jump noise that is made. i think the timing is during the anticipation of the jump. this may be useful. ive also worked on jumping in from a considerable distance with a short hop AD. i was thinking of a situation to do something like this, and i thought: to help breach WOP or other fair spam strategies. when i came down i can immediately jab? grab if I buffered right.
discuss.
one more thing: ive tried this in training mode btu never on a Snake, but I think sonic can get a F-Throw psudo chain grab on him from low percents. if i dash perfectly i can re grab him grab if he doesn't jump away, and that would happen most likely if hes looking to AD an aerial.
also, tired doign teh Fsmash thinng u suggested Anthius, and now im sure ive known how to do this, i just dont do it in matches. so my bad, i will practice it more. thx.
Testing Sonic's Turn Around Animation.
best example is around :25 - :29
What I tried to do was during the turn around, buffer forward, then softly tap back, and there was a noticible slide afterwards. I only did it a few times, so teh miximum potentioal is not close to realization, most likely. but he does slide forward, i think i got a character length at best, maybe a bit more. I recorded a little bit and it'll be on youtube so u can get where im coming from.
if u can, try to replicate this and see what u can get outta it. im anticipating that if this is the case the timing is strict. start testing.
discuss.
PS: also about the AD idea: it seems that depending on the timing you can get it off the floor and without the jump noise that is made. i think the timing is during the anticipation of the jump. this may be useful. ive also worked on jumping in from a considerable distance with a short hop AD. i was thinking of a situation to do something like this, and i thought: to help breach WOP or other fair spam strategies. when i came down i can immediately jab? grab if I buffered right.
discuss.
one more thing: ive tried this in training mode btu never on a Snake, but I think sonic can get a F-Throw psudo chain grab on him from low percents. if i dash perfectly i can re grab him grab if he doesn't jump away, and that would happen most likely if hes looking to AD an aerial.
also, tired doign teh Fsmash thinng u suggested Anthius, and now im sure ive known how to do this, i just dont do it in matches. so my bad, i will practice it more. thx.
Chis
Finally a legend
Nice find Kojin, I'll test this later.
Maybe there are even more ATs from other characters that can also apply to Sonic....
Maybe there are even more ATs from other characters that can also apply to Sonic....
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
half of the KID ATs I come up with are stuff that ive seen other characters do, and I try to apply it to sonic.
like peachs grab release set up on wario and stuff like that.
like peachs grab release set up on wario and stuff like that.
JayBee
Smash Champion
btw how is that workign for sonic, KID? i remember trying it for a minute, but no imediate resutls. you?
JayBee
Smash Champion
click here for more information
im having a smashfest at my apartment for those in VA/MD who aren't going to cot4. I've got some people coming and ima invite those who can come. well be watching the live feed too when it comes on so bring some money and come on over. all the info u need is on the link.
steak.
im having a smashfest at my apartment for those in VA/MD who aren't going to cot4. I've got some people coming and ima invite those who can come. well be watching the live feed too when it comes on so bring some money and come on over. all the info u need is on the link.
steak.
JayBee
Smash Champion
check Kojin Channel on youtube. im uploading nrew vids right now from the smashfest over here. good stuff.
JayBee
Smash Champion
watch this video please
notice how in the end how squirtle died. after that i examined the stage a bit more. this has got to be one of sonic's better stages.
Ibelieve that:
-during the first stage transition, if a player is standing near the right edge of the main platform when the change occurs, it will result in a Star KO.
- if a player is on the left side on the second stage when it changes back, it will result in a star KO
-------------------
i also go a jab lock on norfair (up throw in the capsule to jab lock) )so i think that it can be a good counter pick with sonic. i did a lot of camping though so if u feel u need that then go for it. it can help with combos for u and lowers the damage potnetial of chain grabbers.
discuss
notice how in the end how squirtle died. after that i examined the stage a bit more. this has got to be one of sonic's better stages.
Ibelieve that:
-during the first stage transition, if a player is standing near the right edge of the main platform when the change occurs, it will result in a Star KO.
- if a player is on the left side on the second stage when it changes back, it will result in a star KO
-------------------
i also go a jab lock on norfair (up throw in the capsule to jab lock) )so i think that it can be a good counter pick with sonic. i did a lot of camping though so if u feel u need that then go for it. it can help with combos for u and lowers the damage potnetial of chain grabbers.
discuss
Browny
Smash Hater
If you are lucky, do a d-throw while the stage changes and it will trap the other player beneath the stage :D
I did it to my brothers Ganondorf at 0% in tourney grand final a while back, hes like WTF reset the match, thats not fair!
I did it to my brothers Ganondorf at 0% in tourney grand final a while back, hes like WTF reset the match, thats not fair!
JayBee
Smash Champion
exactly. we need to promote the use of Fridgate for counters. it can catch so many off gaurd.
Anthinus
Smash Journeyman
I'm going to try this dude! This can be a great adventage to us... I have to test in Orpheon what happen if you Dthrow some to that point and get that star KO while they are teching or standing up...
@djbrowny: Do you remember where you was exactly when you did that Dthrow? I would really apreciate if you could detail that steak a bit more...
@djbrowny: Do you remember where you was exactly when you did that Dthrow? I would really apreciate if you could detail that steak a bit more...
thecatinthehat
Smash Master
I guess Cam DID know what he was doing ^_^
JayBee
Smash Champion
i know.
STRRRRRANGE ISN'T IT?!
STRRRRRANGE ISN'T IT?!
Browny
Smash Hater
All i remember anthinus was I grabbed ganon during the 2nd phase of the stage, standing in the dead centre and the dthrow animation was just finishing (as in ganon was about to be knocked away)
its annoying since i have that match recorded on youtube, but the camera ran out of batteries before it happened and by the time new ones were shoved in, the camera only catches ganondorf under the stage and my brother getting angry
its annoying since i have that match recorded on youtube, but the camera ran out of batteries before it happened and by the time new ones were shoved in, the camera only catches ganondorf under the stage and my brother getting angry
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That's TOTALLY why I picked that stage.I guess Cam DID know what he was doing ^_^
>_>
<_<
lol, but I actually do enjoy Frigate (against certain characters) but this Star KO thing is ridiculous...something to look into.
Anthinus
Smash Journeyman
LOL... What a shame!All i remember anthinus was I grabbed ganon during the 2nd phase of the stage, standing in the dead centre and the dthrow animation was just finishing (as in ganon was about to be knocked away)
its annoying since i have that match recorded on youtube, but the camera ran out of batteries before it happened and by the time new ones were shoved in, the camera only catches ganondorf under the stage and my brother getting angry
BTW, I was testing DThrow and stuff to force people finish in a star KO... I get TONS of times my ginea pigs under the stage when it changed (just as you explained djbrowny) and only a star KO, in a way you'll never guess up: I place my guinea pig in the left side of the main platform where the slope begins (in the second part of the stage, the one without the moving platform on the right side), I placed Sonic near the opponent and with my back to the edge. When the alarm sounded I timed a BThrow to have Sonic and the opponent be spinning in the air when the stage changed... The stage changed and I was at the top of the stage and the ginea pig falling into a star KO... weird...
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
dude...
thats sex.
thats sex.
Anthinus
Smash Journeyman
Yup... I have to test more. Maybe Kojin can help me to explore in which places and facing which way can DThrow do this... And how star KO at low %s (Muahahahaha!!!)
JayBee
Smash Champion
lol that's awesome. unfortunately you guys will have to do it without me because its midterms this week... sigh.
but by all means post the knowledge here. interesting stuff...
but by all means post the knowledge here. interesting stuff...
Browny
Smash Hater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Op1iF4rvqzQ&feature=channel_page
here it is, watch the last few seconds. it killed him from 0% lmao! if only it had footage of the actual throw (which was done on the main platform, not the floating one)
here it is, watch the last few seconds. it killed him from 0% lmao! if only it had footage of the actual throw (which was done on the main platform, not the floating one)
JayBee
Smash Champion
made a cool pic to place on the first page.
steak.
steak.
JayBee
Smash Champion
nice. i never go there. maybe i should. or is that a no no for sonic?
infomon
Smash Scientist
Wow, that pic is freakin amazing.
JayBee
Smash Champion
thanks for dat steak. I wish I could do more to differentiate my thread and make it cooler to come here. i'll accept any ideas...
Anthinus
Smash Journeyman
I love the pic Kojin, it looks cool!!! (*whisper* what is the thing on the right side? *whisper*)
I've been busy and I couldn't test anything yet, but I'll do it soon...
I've been busy and I couldn't test anything yet
, but I'll do it soon...
JayBee
Smash Champion
i think a large majority of smashboards know what that symbol is at this point. i just reuse it in different ways to keep the symbol alive.
ban metaknight plz.
ban metaknight plz.