KirbyKaze's Sheik MU Guide - POSTPONED INDEFINITELY

[Kaffei]

-dip-

xD

 

[weon - X]

i want a CF one

 

[KirbyKaze]

 

[Violence]

KIRBYKAZE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_zRBQu1y-c#t=55s

WHAT IN GODS NAME WAS THAT!?

CAN SAMUS DO IT!?

Seriously, is that just some kind of insane quarter circle DI?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Just stupid amazingly ridiculous DI.

 

[bubbaking]

Fair is hard for ICs to punish and is good against them, but they can do things about it. They can simply roll back -> blizzard to get away from the pressure, although they likely won't gain much from this either unless the Sheik is careless and runs into the blizzard. Having a reliable get-out-of-pressure-free card is still convenient, though. ICs can also do stuff like just fsmash her hand since our hammers our more disjointed than your (still oddly disjointed) hand, but that requires very particular positioning that doesn't come up that often. There's also stuff like wavedash -> usmash/utilt that you need to worry about as well, as well as sillier to stuff like wavedash -> cross-up dsmash as you land.

Well, I don't know much about ICs but I believe I've seen ICs use blizzard in an interesting tactic where one climber blizzards while the other WDs in and grabs. Wouldn't this destroy fair or any reasonable approach? Also, fsmashing Sheik's hand w/ the disjoint shouldn't be too hard because of the positioning of both climbers, thus giving them essentially two disjoints. Maybe I'm wrong, though. Again, I don't know much about climbers. All I know is what I was able to pick up from Sorto while he was here...

Can I write the CF MU? ahahaha

stupid ICies

just tilt them

I'm pretty sure ICs can punish tilts really hard, especially w/ WD oos and stuff.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Well, I don't know much about ICs but I believe I've seen ICs use blizzard in an interesting tactic where one climber blizzards while the other WDs in and grabs. Wouldn't this destroy fair or any reasonable approach? Also, fsmashing Sheik's hand w/ the disjoint shouldn't be too hard because of the positioning of both climbers, thus giving them essentially two disjoints. Maybe I'm wrong, though. Again, I don't know much about climbers. All I know is what I was able to pick up from Sorto while he was here...

It is indeed hard for Sheik to approach when a blizzard is out, although she has no incentive to run into it, either. She can just wait for it to end and do stuff afterwards. The issue with spacing the the fsmash to beat Sheik's fair is that ICs have odd movement. If Sheik is trying to fair me and I want to fsmash her hand, I need to get into a particular position very quickly. If ICs are not shielding, they could either need to walk to the right spot or dash and pivot. If they are, then they need to do a really short wavedash OoS, which isn't very practical for a variety of reasons. The presence of two ICs isn't particularly relevant here.

I'm pretty sure ICs can punish tilts really hard, especially w/ WD oos and stuff.

Well-spaced tilts are safe on shield, but generally unsafe on CC. I think a very well-spaced ftilt -> jab will beat any CC -> dash grab attempts, but I could be mistaken; ftilt is still ultimately usually unsafe in practice, as is dtilt. Utilt is weird and isn't a move that typically gets much use against ICs when they're on the ground, although I wouldn't be surprised if lots of ICs are bad at punishing it anyways. This is all assuming that the ICs are at a low-ish percentage; tilts become much better at higher percentages when ICs can't just trivially CC them. Tilts are also good against ICs like that to dash dance a lot since they can't crouch out of the initial dash animation, and hence a stray ftilt could pop up the ICs and lead to a brief combo that separates them. As noted earlier, they're also fine if you do get the ICs in their shield.

 

[KirbyKaze]

There are gaps between blizzards that you can sneak needles and other attacks into. Popo can be troublesome in that he has a free action, but oh well, you have more range and a better projectile. You don't really need to commit against blizzards.

The things that are troublesome are their death grabs, strong "below" position, and Sheik's inability to really grab them (buffs shield game's longevity).

It's an interesting MU. Sheik has some strong positions but they're hard to achieve on both ICs sometimes (she ***** them when she's below them, but dash attack / d-tilt / throw can be hard to land on them because of their unique shield game & awkward hammer hitboxes, not to mention that all of those are ground moves, and ICs win the ground game).

I think keeping full set of needles charged is potentially really good, spaced fair *****, low nair *****, and you have to ride her juggles to victory when they expose a vulnerability when they're trying to work their way in.

 

[weon - X]

im not trolling wtf, im bad vs capt falcon.

 

[Apathy]

I feel like the only reasonable go-to option Sheik has in her shield is nair.

It's 4 frames, right? Do you do it (you specifically, KK, not just how the mechanics work) by shielding, holding up on the c-stick and then immediately nairing? Assuming you're frame perfect what pressure does it counter? Can it beat Fox/Falco pillaring?

Haven't played this game in a while and when I did I played way too much Fox/Falco to the point that Sheik feels lumbering to me

In general Sheik's defensive game feels really difficult. It feels like once you get hit by fast fallers you have to work your *** off to regain control. What is your mindset? How do you like to establish control? How do you like to return from the ledge? How do you alter your defensive mix-ups?

When your opponent is shielding and you are one pivot/ftilt away what do you do? Specifically against Falco. Such a common, and beneficial, occurence yet I rarely punish hard. If I space a ftilt on their shield they just absorb it and jump. Sometimes they jump and I fair but that's more of a momentum/feel-based thing you can't really count on. Maybe auto-cancel nair? Boost grab? Auto-cancel fair?

When you bthrow a spacie off the stage 0-50% what do you like to follow up with? Spacies DJ back and firefox, illusion or spot dodge. Spot dodge can be countered with usmash but firefox, and illusion especially, are trickier.

What about v Falcon?

Not a question but damn Sheik's usmash feels broken lol

 

[soap]

sheik moves different than spacies.. she quick tho


broken is not how I would describe usmash. I'd call it weird. fits sheik.

 

[bubbaking]

I feel like the only reasonable go-to option Sheik has in her shield is nair.

It's 4 frames, right? Do you do it (you specifically, KK, not just how the mechanics work) by shielding, holding up on the c-stick and then immediately nairing? Assuming you're frame perfect what pressure does it counter? Can it beat Fox/Falco pillaring?

Haven't played this game in a while and when I did I played way too much Fox/Falco to the point that Sheik feels lumbering to me

In general Sheik's defensive game feels really difficult. It feels like once you get hit by fast fallers you have to work your *** off to regain control. What is your mindset? How do you like to establish control? How do you like to return from the ledge? How do you alter your defensive mix-ups?

When your opponent is shielding and you are one pivot/ftilt away what do you do? Specifically against Falco. Such a common, and beneficial, occurence yet I rarely punish hard. If I space a ftilt on their shield they just absorb it and jump. Sometimes they jump and I fair but that's more of a momentum/feel-based thing you can't really count on. Maybe auto-cancel nair? Boost grab? Auto-cancel fair?

When you bthrow a spacie off the stage 0-50% what do you like to follow up with? Spacies DJ back and firefox, illusion or spot dodge. Spot dodge can be countered with usmash but firefox, and illusion especially, are trickier.

What about v Falcon?

Not a question but damn Sheik's usmash feels broken lol

Sheik lumbering? Well, maybe she's slower than Fox, but in general, I find that she's smoother and not so limited by technical skill.

Yes, fastfallers tend to be great comboers. Perhaps, mix up your ftilts on their shields w/ grabs? Try spaced fair>grab. Also, don't get stuck in the state of mind that foxes only recover w/ DJ followed by spot dodge, firefox, or illusion. I know a quite good Fox over here on LI who likes to attack back w/ an aerial after the DJ and then take advantage of his gratuitous firefox to sweetspot the ledge. Since he's at low %'s (based on what you said), he doesn't have to worry about being hit out of his recovery range too much.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Hi KirbyKaze, could you do Fox or Falco next? I find the current matchup guide bit outdated:

Vs. Fox

"Down smash. Drephen recommended, proven by every Sheik player in the world. It works, it hits hard, and it does a good deal of damage. It can be used whenever you feel like it, but as you will learn some situations are better than others.

If you are luck enough to read their tech (or lack their of) you can do a number of things. The charged up or down smash is always up to be used, or you can re-grab, jab, etc."

Vs. Falco

"I prefer a quick crouch canceled down smash into tech punishing, but other avenues are more than open."

I find downsmash to be ok but not that good vs. good spacies because good Foxes bait your downsmash and then punish hard. Also good spacies tech downsmash which pretty much ends the chase and gives them back the control. I need desperately help with spacie matchups and I'm trying to focus on maximizing the combos/techchases from grab where I would rather use other moves with less duration to keep to combo going.

I'm trying to get recent match vs. a **** spacie uploaded soon, I have one marth set uploading where I get ***** and also need advice. Here's the set:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1dFRYICKgI

KK plz <3

 

[bubbaking]

I'm not KK, but I thought I'd just share my observations. That first time you knocked Marth off the stage (1st match), you should have grabbed the ledge. In fact, you should have grabbed the ledge more often in general during the matches. Like, in the second match, all three times you knocked the Marth off during his first stock over 100%, you could have killed him or been in the right position to do easily if you had grabbed the ledge. That's kinda how you lost your second stock too. Also, you spot dodge and dash attack a lot. Right after you lost your second stock in that second match, you spot dodged 4x in a row. It seems to me like you don't capitalize on techs too well, but you already mentioned that in your post. Other things that went thru my head: u might be smashing too much (especially fsmash) and perhaps ur needles aren't being used in the best ways. Finally, I think you need to mix up your ledge recovery game. It was usually edgehop>waveland and sometimes that waveland was followed by a spot dodge, which became more common as the games wore on.
Well, I hope this helped. Good luck!

 

[KirbyKaze]

Novice you live in Europe so most of what I say is useless because pal Sheik is low tier.

 

[Mew2King]

best way to fight falco

is DONT get in ur shield

otherwise you're playing his game, and ur disadvantaged

also perfect powershielding obviously is the best thing

 

[Kaffei]

best way to fight falco

is DONT get in ur shield

otherwise you're playing his game, and ur disadvantaged

also perfect powershielding obviously is the best thing

so wat do i do
spam bair
??????

 

[Mew2King]

idk its gay LOL

unless u have a controller that can powershield perfectly

 

[Kaffei]

sry that doesn't exist






















=D

 

[KirbyKaze]

so wat do i do
spam bair
??????

If the angle is correct, yes.

On a more general note, you just have to accept that there will be a lot of repositioning in the MU and a lot of situations are heavily advantaged for him. So you can't challenge him directly in them.

 

[Kaffei]

If the angle is correct, yes.

On a more general note, you just have to accept that there will be a lot of repositioning in the MU and a lot of situations are heavily advantaged for him. So you can't challenge him directly in them.

Hmm. Ok. I think I know what you mean.
The hardest part is recovering for me... Especially when Falco gets me off stage from like 40%, cus even if I poof onto the stage he just combos me more, then I'm back off stage again. =(

Is there anything I can do? (besides like mind game recovery but I don't see how Sheik can really mind game with her up b besides going for the ledge instead of the stage/hugging lip thing)

 

[KirbyKaze]

Ground teching his dair works. Otherwise just do a good survival DI at those low percents and try not to be predictable when you're recovering with your jump. Remember that wavelanding deeper into the stage is a real option, and that immediately attacking someone who's proficient with ledge invincibility often results in being baired to the jaw. If they grab the edge immediately it can be worth seeing if you can play chicken and see if you can wait out their invincibility and DJ > slap at them, pull away with the Up+B to outlast their rising animation and then grab the edge, etc.

 

[Kaffei]

Could you explain this part a little further? I'm not exactly sure what you mean about wavelanding deeper into the stage and the ledge invincibility part.

Remember that wavelanding deeper into the stage is a real option, and that immediately attacking someone who's proficient with ledge invincibility often results in being baired to the jaw.

Everything else sounds great. I will try those. Much appreciated =D

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

I'm not KK, but I thought I'd just share my observations. That first time you knocked Marth off the stage (1st match), you should have grabbed the ledge. In fact, you should have grabbed the ledge more often in general during the matches. Like, in the second match, all three times you knocked the Marth off during his first stock over 100%, you could have killed him or been in the right position to do easily if you had grabbed the ledge. That's kinda how you lost your second stock too. Also, you spot dodge and dash attack a lot. Right after you lost your second stock in that second match, you spot dodged 4x in a row. It seems to me like you don't capitalize on techs too well, but you already mentioned that in your post. Other things that went thru my head: u might be smashing too much (especially fsmash) and perhaps ur needles aren't being used in the best ways. Finally, I think you need to mix up your ledge recovery game. It was usually edgehop>waveland and sometimes that waveland was followed by a spot dodge, which became more common as the games wore on.
Well, I hope this helped. Good luck!

Thanks man, that's really useful advice. I usually ledge waveland with Sheik because I find it pretty safe, other than that I just get up. I find other options bad unless I'm ledge guarding.

Also lol KK

 

[bubbaking]

Novice you live in Europe so most of what I say is useless because pal Sheik is low tier.

#2 is low tier? O_o Oh, ur joking, gotcha!

Is there anything I can do? (besides like mind game recovery but I don't see how Sheik can really mind game with her up b besides going for the ledge instead of the stage/hugging lip thing)

What is this "hugging lip thing"? O_o

 

[Kaffei]

What is this "hugging lip thing"? O_o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF6GtTTuHGs 2:02

 

[Apathy]

wtf KK answer my post

you love to post a lot of crap and you ignore mine? SAY WHAT

we should make a compendium of m2k posts because his advice has always been perfect

im sorry for ever hating on you king of mews

 

[Twix]

He's the king of MewTWOs.... get it right.

No one cares about that little pink ****er

 

[Kaffei]

He's the king of MewTWOs.... get it right.

No one cares about that little pink ****er

That always bothers me
When people say he's king of mews
but it clearly says Mewtwo King

 

[Twix]

Don't worry M2K, Kaffei and I are here for you.

 

[bubbaking]

Lolz, his name just can't be MK cuz then, no one would be able to tell if one was saying Metaknight or MewKing. XD

Edit: Btw, how does one do this "lip-hugging" reliably?

 

[Kaffei]

You learn the angles

 

[bubbaking]

Wierd Q: One can't ledge-cancel Sheik's upB, right?

 

[joejoe22802]

wrong!char

 

[bubbaking]

??? What do you mean? :/

 

[Kaffei]

Wierd Q: One can't ledge-cancel Sheik's upB, right?

Try it

10tries

 

[KirbyKaze]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XYLLRzu7AU

 

[Kaffei]

Sexxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx^

 

[Twix]

Do you just L-Cancel on the ledge?

 

[hectohertz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XYLLRzu7AU

this is awesome. is this actually applicable in matches? i see falcos edge cancel their stupid recovery all the time its about time sheik stepped her game up