KirbyKaze's Sheik MU Guide - POSTPONED INDEFINITELY

[Kaffei]

im serious lol

i know all the stuff KK already said but there's no way everyone's gonna memorize that all at once. Just grab falcon, and gimp fox, and outspace them. I could get into a HUGE amount of detail if i wanted but it's pointless just do what i said

falco and jiggs now plz (even tho i think my main problem with them is my mental block I'm pretty good vs falco when I'm not being emo)

is it bad to approach jiggs with like... spaced SH/FH and then reverse needle cancel to bair? seems like sheik bair out ranges puff bair but puff moves better in the air so i have no idea

 

[Mew2King]

jiggs bair always trades or beats sheiks aerials unfortunately

 

[Kaffei]

..........lame

 

[Mew2King]

it's possible to hit jiggs without jiggs hitting you of course but in terms of moves, you are at a clear disadvantage, both rangewise, and also mobility wise which makes it gayer).

 

[Kaffei]

oo ok.
wait what if jiggs is like >40% and u jump over her bair(cus her bair is like a line it's horizontal) and then dair her? is that bad

 

[FlipX]

What? Sheik-jiggs has to be like 70-30 sheik hahaha. As long as you dont do something stupid (like, you know, approach) jiggs can do close to literal nothing.

 

[Kaffei]

What? Sheik-jiggs has to be like 70-30 sheik hahaha. As long as you dont do something stupid (like, you know, approach) jiggs can do close to literal nothing.

that's not true sheik is one of the easier characters to rest and jiggs can crouch cancel aerials into rest and stuff

even if jiggs misses a rest, sheik cant really punish it like fox can
and jiggs is super good at edge guarding sheik

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Idk i think sheik's mobility is pretty good in the MU. I mean, just knock her out of position and abuse your speed to poke into her weak spots, most notably slightly below her. Sheik's bair tilts up at the perfect angle to get under and hit puff. Also there is a decent amount of lag to punish if you can get above puff when she bairs. Puff's ideal range is to keep her opponent a bair length away; anything closer than that and she has trouble since she lacks good, quick ground moves.

 

[Jolteon]

sheik needs a move like ganon utilt to punish rest @_@

 

[FlipX]

that's not true sheik is one of the easier characters to rest and jiggs can crouch cancel aerials into rest and stuff

even if jiggs misses a rest, sheik cant really punish it like fox can
and jiggs is super good at edge guarding sheik

Like I said, dont do anything stupid. It isn't hard as sheik to avoid rest. You should know when you are going to get rested. Dont go running into uptilt like a scrub haha. If jiggs is cc your aerials and resting you, you are doing something really wrong. Space the hell outta that hoe. Bair when you want to get away or let your shield recharge (because you will probably be in their a lot), keep running away the whole time, wait for puff to do something dumb (they always do) then just nair/fair OoS. Also look for easy grabs, so many sheiks that ive seen play the match up are so scared to grab, it isnt hard to do w/o getting rested. Also when they try to get cute and duck next to your shield just upsmash OoS. Everything jiggs does sheik has a good counter for. You can run faster than she can float to you, ez game.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

charge usmash
dair -> uair
dthrow -> uair
dthrow -> usmash

 

[FlipX]

*needles -> downthrow -> X
haha

 

[Mew2King]

sheik is unfortunately one of the easiest characters to rest in the game. Back throw, up tilt, and Uair all lead to rest. Nair leads to rest too. You can also block a lot of her moves and rest. You can predict a roll and rest. You can also duck grabs and rest.

Do any of those, camp, and it's hard to come back

sheik may have a counter to everything jiggs does, but when jiggs guesses right she gets a stock.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

True, rests are good, but I think it comes down to the players for how often rests occur. If you know the match-up you know certain things can easily be rested (shield grabbing, not spacing on shield) and that certain things have a risk/reward associated with the rest. You can roll and they can expect the roll and rest or you can wavedash backwards, aware they are looking for you to roll, and reset the scenario. Or they could bair expecting you to WD back and if you roll you get a free hit.

 

[FlipX]

Rest should be jiggs main kill on you though, and that is a lot of pressure for jiggs. I played a jiggs in tournament a week or so ago at The Big House (MI road to apex) and im pretty sure his only kills on me were rests, but thats all I had to worry about. I was easily beating him in every other aspect that all he could do was go for rests. In his defense he did Mango me and soul read one of my rolls, but after that happened I just moved on and remembered not to roll where he could get to me before my shield is back up. Sure rest *****, but thats the only reason she even gets 30% in the match-up, with out rests she is just a kirby flailing around praying for her bair to hits you.

 

[OverLord]

Sheik sure is not helpless in the MU, but the way you are describing it is just making you seem like you don't really know what you're talkin' about, or you actually haven't played any good Puff yet.

 

[FlipX]

Id say in the past month ive beaten Vanz's jiggs more than ive lost to it (get at me jaden =P)

- He also claims to have tapped sheiks in the past with his puff so...

 

[OverLord]

Good job then, but I still wouldn't say it's 70-30 for Sheik though

 

[FlipX]

Well the point wasn't to brag haha, Vanz is way better than me, foxes at his puffs level would tap me easy, but the fact that i can keep up/beat his puff should go toward showing an advantage in the MU.

 

[OverLord]

I see what you mean, maybe you're just very good in the MU.

If you see Overtriforce vs. HBox you can see how Sheik can do good, but that they're actually pretty even.
I can't really say if Sheik has the edge, I'd say 50-50, but I don't feel like the MU is evenly clear by both sides, maybe in the near future Sheiks will do better.

 

[Jolteon]

I think a lot of sheik players john too much about jigglypuff, but I wouldn't say it's in Sheik's favour, especially 70:30.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I went even with andale's rest happy puff a month or so ago with my random rusty sheik. This is all empirical evidence, though

 

[Mew2King]

vanz jiggs is not as good as his other chars. You need to play a REAL puff before you decide MUs based on that.

he's also pretty bad vs sheik in general imo. you can search my latest set on youtube with him to see.

 

[KirbyKaze]

There's a percent range where you can SHFFL up air on Puff if she misses Rest and then combo with stuff if she DIs away or in or whatever, and do shenanigans if she grounds herself. I think it starts at exactly 18% with a fresh up air (so they need to be at like 30% after the hit? Something like that).

 

[Kaffei]

vanz jiggs is not as good as his other chars. You need to play a REAL puff before you decide MUs based on that.

he's also pretty bad vs sheik in general imo. you can search my latest set on youtube with him to see.

is that really how u fight ICs as sheik? just slap slap slap slap slap??? O.O

@KK: oo... i will keep that in mind =D

 

[Phatgamer1]

I've always found it more helpful to pressure a jiggs into doing something dumb than to wait for them to do it. I guess you could honestly do that in any MU but in my own personal experience I like playing nonstop pressure...just my two cents

 

[FlipX]

Id be interested in someone (m2k/kk?) breaking down the ic match-up. All I do in it is apparently what m2k does? (I didnt watch the vid) but I just fair and hope I dont miss and get grabbed haha, but that seems like a pretty horrible strategy.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm horrific against ICs.

 

[bubbaking]

Like I said, dont do anything stupid. It isn't hard as sheik to avoid rest.

I have a friend who plays Jiggs. He CC rested me out of dash attack, dtilt, jab, ftilt, and grab (he simply crouched the grab). How can you say it's hard for Sheik to avoid rest when her ground game is on the verge of being shut down and Jiggs can CC rest her aerials too!

 

[Mew2King]

space fair

.....

lol <_< that's half the MU i think. I've 3 stocked chu on FD in that MU by literally just spacing fair so i don't get grabbed.

 

[bubbaking]

What? Sheik-jiggs has to be like 70-30 sheik hahaha. As long as you dont do something stupid (like, you know, approach) jiggs can do close to literal nothing.

As far as I know, the Sheik vs Jiggs MU is even.

Idk i think sheik's mobility is pretty good in the MU. I mean, just knock her out of position and abuse your speed to poke into her weak spots, most notably slightly below her. Sheik's bair tilts up at the perfect angle to get under and hit puff. Also there is a decent amount of lag to punish if you can get above puff when she bairs. Puff's ideal range is to keep her opponent a bair length away; anything closer than that and she has trouble since she lacks good, quick ground moves.

The problem here is that Jiggs easily resets the spacing with her aerial mobility.

oo ok.
wait what if jiggs is like >40% and u jump over her bair(cus her bair is like a line it's horizontal) and then dair her? is that bad

Won’t her bair end before your dair can even come out?

Like I said, dont do anything stupid. It isn't hard as sheik to avoid rest. You should know when you are going to get rested. Dont go running into uptilt like a scrub haha. If jiggs is cc your aerials and resting you, you are doing something really wrong. Space the hell outta that hoe. Bair when you want to get away or let your shield recharge (because you will probably be in their a lot), keep running away the whole time, wait for puff to do something dumb (they always do) then just nair/fair OoS. Also look for easy grabs, so many sheiks that ive seen play the match up are so scared to grab, it isnt hard to do w/o getting rested. Also when they try to get cute and duck next to your shield just upsmash OoS. Everything jiggs does sheik has a good counter for. You can run faster than she can float to you, ez game.

Shield recharge? You’re gonna be shielding that much when close to Jiggs? IIRC, Jiggs’s grab is pretty good for a balloon. There is good reason to be scared of grabbing! Jiggs crouches a standing grab and rests you, and if you miss a dash grab, you’re in so much lag! Also, I may be wrong, but I’m pretty sure that Jiggs can CC rest Sheik’s usmash at low %’s (probably only 0 but hey, that’s a magic number these days). And you can’t keep running all day. Jiggs is actually pretty good at cornering ppl since she can punish rolls and misspaced aerials really easily.

Rest should be jiggs main kill on you though, and that is a lot of pressure for jiggs. I played a jiggs in tournament a week or so ago at The Big House (MI road to apex) and im pretty sure his only kills on me were rests, but thats all I had to worry about. I was easily beating him in every other aspect that all he could do was go for rests. In his defense he did Mango me and soul read one of my rolls, but after that happened I just moved on and remembered not to roll where he could get to me before my shield is back up. Sure rest *****, but thats the only reason she even gets 30% in the match-up, with out rests she is just a kirby flailing around praying for her bair to hits you.

Rest doesn’t have to be Jiggs main form of killing. If Jiggs gets Sheik offstage (easy enough w/ bthrow), a smart player will never let Sheik get back…..ever, ESPECIALLY since Jigg's bair beats or trades w/ ALL of Sheik's aerials. And again, I’m pretty sure the MU is even. Lowest it could be is 6:4 in someone’s favor.

I've been successful against most of the Jiggs I've gone against, but I blame stupid Jiggs (********, actually, cuz I'm kinda stupid), but I don't think that denotes a good MU for Sheik. My Samus also does fairly well against Jiggs, but that's a 7:3 MU......in Jiggs' favor. <.<

 

[FlipX]

You can, in fact, keep running all day =P Most of my sheik vs jiggs games against good opponents go pretty close to time depending on the stage. Shielding is the nuts vs jiggs, you can wd/jump out of it also. Im not saying youll never get grabbed, but getting grabbed isn't the end of the world.

Also when I say rest is her main form of killing, I mean that if she doesn't get rests it is going to be a long and painful game for her. I have been wall of pained to death a time or two in my day as sheik, but resting is just easier.

 

[Mew2King]

no its not wtf.

a bair that is DI'd in leads to another Bair

a bair that isn't DI'd in leads to terrible stage position, or off stage, where you can guess right once, and gimp them with either aerials or an edge hog to rest

so hard <__<

being able to OHKO off of a 50 50 guess so easily is stupid

 

[bubbaking]

You can, in fact, keep running all day =P Most of my sheik vs jiggs games against good opponents go pretty close to time depending on the stage.

Hmmm, this is accounting for smaller stages like Yoshi's, FoD, and BF? Don't know how much Jiggs likes CPing those against Sheik but space seems kinda tight on them.

 

[Mew2King]

jiggs might even be BETTER on those stages

the smaller the main stage the easier it is for her to knock you off and edge guard you often and easily.

 

[gm jack]

I agree actually.

I think PS has the best balance of space and jiggs not dying at a retardedly late percent.

 

[rpgfighter]

Question on Jab Resets, whenever they are on the ground and didn't tech and I jab them at a high percentage its like I hit them off the ground and they get a free nair/whatever.

But when I see combo videos of Sheik/Jigg/Falco, they are still able to get the jab reset off of fairly high %'s.

How do I go about doing this? Or does it simply not work at certain %'s? Thanks in advance sorry if its a dumb question.

Edit: **** sorry wrong thread. XP

This is going to be really awesome btw! Thanks so much for making it. It's already helping me in the mirror.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, you see, a jab reset working is very reliant on your opponent not inputting anything when he's hit. Combo vids only see favorable situations and outcomes, but in reality, when you jab someone, they can buffer in a roll or getup attack, or they could SDI the hit, thus causing themselves to pop into the air.

 

[KirbyKaze]

One trick to making jabs reset work has to do with doing the jab in a time where the opponent is likely holding down for one reason or another. Surprise knockdowns on ASDI down are a pretty viable way to set it up. Sheik's not the best at this, though.

In general it's not worth doing above a certain percent anyway just because you can tilt, dash attack, etc. and set up an automatic combos anyway.

 

[bubbaking]

^ Dem's da truth!