Kirby General Discussion

[DerfMidWest]

Kirby is fun in teams.

 

[Triple R]

Kirby gets wrecked in teams... err -teams +everything.

Ummm... I actually think Kirby does pretty well in teams... As stupid as it sounds, Kirby just ends up being the stock tank/gimper in the team.

 

[McNinja]

Yeah I thought kirby was decent in teams. He has the option to choose from 3 powers instead of just one. And you can help with a teammate's recovery fairly easily. Right?

 

[GHNeko]

are you guys done being depressing?

 

[bubbaking]

Ummm... I actually think Kirby does pretty well in teams... As stupid as it sounds, Kirby just ends up being the stock tank/gimper in the team.

In my opinion, Kirby has incredible potential when it comes to teams. First of all, kirbyciding is pretty viable when your teammate is distracting your opponents sufficiently and it shouldn't cost your team any stocks if you do it right. Secondly, Kirby can save teammates. By swallowing an offstage partner and pressing B, he pops that teammate straight upwards without falling too far himself. On top of that, he fully restores ALL of both his teammate's and his OWN jumps. In other words, Kirby can also save himself by swallowing a teammate (or anyone for that matter) when he is trying to recover.

 

[Massive]

yea...
Kirby is hella fun when you play matchups that you don't get wrecked in...
which is like...
a few of them...

and teams.

Matchups I feel my Kirby is a capable opponent at:
Gannondorf
Falco
Marth
Mario/Dr. Mario
Donkey Kong
Peach
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon

Matchups Kirby is very BAD at:
FOX
Luigi
Pikachu
Roy
Samus

Kirby is amazing in teams.
I've beaten Darkrain with him in teams before, lol.

 

[Strong Badam]

Kirby's taunt does annoy people though. DK's too... I've seen people rage at DK's taunt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ7Y4JtKA2E#t=5m12s

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I thought Kirby was decent in the Sheik matchup. Am I wrong about that?

 

[Massive]

I thought Kirby was decent in the Sheik matchup. Am I wrong about that?

He's alright.
There's no particular advantages to it other than a low duck.

You can always simply outplay your opponent, but that's pretty much how you win any match with Kirby.

It is possible to counter a lot of regular sheik strategies just by the way kirby moves, but once they figure out how to approach or defend its pretty easy to run bread & butter sheik combos on Kirby.

If you get grabbed by sheik you're as screwed as when you're grabbed by falcon (your options are uair, fair, or usmash). Sheik is also amazing at ledgeguards too, so it's not a pretty picture.

 

[ryuu seika]

Why is Roy on your BAD list? Marth is a decent foe but Roy seems to be worse than Pichu for fighting Kirby from what little experience I have. Atleast Pichu still has some of Pikachu's brutal Kirby killing moves.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Im gonna go ahead and say Roy is absolutely awful against Kirby. Kirby's only winning match up imo.

 

[Massive]

Why is Roy on your BAD list? Marth is a decent foe but Roy seems to be worse than Pichu for fighting Kirby from what little experience I have. Atleast Pichu still has some of Pikachu's brutal Kirby killing moves.

Just my experience, really. I've played a few Roys that were super rough on my Kirby but pretty crappy against my other characters (who are arguably worse than my Kirby), leading me to believe that there was a pretty sizable matchup difference.

Kirby's playstyle demands you get close to someone, and Roy's fsmash sweetspot is close to his body. His approach (fair) is also safer than Marth's in this matchup due to his fastfaller status. His Up-B recovery is also nearly impossible to trade hits with, this is the biggest difference in the matchup, IMO. Marth's dolphin slash is an easy KO for kirby if you trade a bair with it. Without that on Roy its less fun. Since a large portion kirby's stock-taking ability is in ledgeguards, that factor alone makes the match unpleasant.

The pichu match feels pretty break-even to me. Pichu is hard to ledgeguard but can't ledgeguard himself. Kirby is easily ledgeguarded but can ledgeguard himself very well. Neither is very effective at killing the other while onstage. The match always feels like it takes forever, the more patient/consistent player usually wins.

 

[bubbaking]

Matchups I feel my Kirby is a capable opponent at:
Gannondorf
Falco
Marth
Mario/Dr. Mario
Donkey Kong
Peach
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon

Matchups Kirby is very BAD at:
FOX
Luigi
Pikachu
Roy
Samus

Kirby is amazing in teams.
I've beaten Darkrain with him in teams before, lol.

Why Luigi? I can understand Kirby might have a hard time getting in because of Luigi's extremely good wavedash, but camping isn't exactly Luigi's forte.

Kirby's playstyle demands you get close to someone, and Roy's fsmash sweetspot is close to his body. His approach (fair) is also safer than Marth's in this matchup due to his fastfaller status. His Up-B recovery is also nearly impossible to trade hits with, this is the biggest difference in the matchup, IMO. Marth's dolphin slash is an easy KO for kirby if you trade a bair with it. Without that on Roy its less fun. Since a large portion kirby's stock-taking ability is in ledgeguards, that factor alone makes the match unpleasant.

IMO, Roy is easier to fight than Marth. Sure his upB has a better hitbox, but he falls so fast that he often doesn't even get to recover. Unlike Marth, you can actually go out there and actively gimp him and Roy will be too focused on trying to recover to really do anything about it. Even if Roy manages to hit you w/ upB, you'll be popped straight up, very unlike Marth's dolphin slash. In the worst case scenario, you'll be in the air above Roy which is a surprisingly neutral scenario since Roy's aerials and upwards ground moves kinda suck.

We have quite a few Roys here on Long Island, one of which is probably the best in NY. I've seen my fair share of what Roy can and can't do. One of the things Roys really can't do is prevent gimps with anything short of upB.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think Falco is harder than Luigi.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

KK, what's your opinion on Kirby v Sheik? And is it better or worse than Ganon v Sheik?

 

[KirbyKaze]

If Sheik is really smart then it's rough. Most Sheiks are absolutely terrible at this game and have abysmal critical thinking skills so they don't realize that their key move vs Kirby is needles. Standard Sheik aerial, grab, tilt, dash attack suites run into trouble with Kirbs' basic gameplay; her approach sucks against low crouches and Kirby actually plays a pretty decent counter-poke game against her pokes (Sheik's moves have more range and priority, but she has to aim awkwardly to hit him and he can use that to position his hitboxes in a more optimal way to win exchanges). But, again, she can avoid this kind of exchange if she knows the nuances of needles because she can just make Kirby approach. Kirby's approach is really bad. Especially vs Sheik.

For practical purposes, you can probably view Sheik as one of his better MUs in a general sense.

Ganon IMO is one of Kirby's best MUs amongst the top 12-16 characters or so. Yeah, his killing potential is annoying. But he's also gimpable, comboable, can be tech chased from d-throw without tons of prediction, is slow (both in movement and move startup time), and other awesome things. If you don't want to get hit by Ganondorf (or find yourself stuck in mid-range or similar crappy situations), it's pretty feasible to just run away from him and get a long-distance positioning back unless he predicts you running away from him (and there's some extra guesswork required on his part because of his lack of a fast, forward-moving move). Granted, you can't really counterattack him during this procedure unless he does something incredibly stupid (down+B). But it's easy to get breathing room or reset positioning and other crap like that.

The ability to escape the opponent's optimal range and get back to a relatively even-footing is really valuable. It's part of why I think Falco & Fox are so rough on Kirbs. He can't really run away from them or get consistently decent positioning going if they know the limitations of his movement.




edit: The thing about Ganon vs characters in general is that his base gameplan doesn't really change across MUs. His options don't really get drastically get cut by crouch heights, CC, etc. He does the same thing vs everyone, pretty much. So he's often harder in practice for a lot of lower tier characters or awkward characters just because... he doesn't really get affected as much by the opposing character being weird (whereas a lot of the top tiers do). So even if Marth should be harder for ICs on paper, a lot of ICs struggle way harder with Ganon partially because Ganon just does not give a **** about there being a second character. Second character doesn't affect his ability to punch people in the face. Marth, conversely, gets his options funneled into a bunch of weird aspects of his game he doesn't normally have to place much emphasis on. So even though he's probably got some really good options and a really strong option tree, it's also a bunch of skills & strategies that haven't been practiced or built into the player's general gameplan as much as his generic throw & movement stuff that's more generally applicable (so it's choppy and less refined).

 

[Bing]

Okay good, I was hoping you would say that the Kirby Ganon MU was good. Its the only time Ill use Kirby in Tournament.


God I love Comboing Forward Smash into Forward Smash into Forward Smash.


btw my opinion on Kirby in teams is a personal Opinion. My Kirby sucks in teams...And I doubt that will change

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't think Ganon is really bad for Kirby at all. It's always just felt like a poking MU but Ganon is slightly slower but has much bigger moves that hit way harder. Both characters have craptastic recoveries so big swing plays a la gimping are possible. Both have good throws on the other. Kirby's awkward to hit but Ganon's aerials hit pretty low and hang around for a while (relative to other 'swing' moves) so it's not as weird to aim at Kirbs for him as it is for, say, Sheik or Puff.

I mean, clear Ganon advantage. But Kirby's far from helpless.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

In that case, I'll try to use Kirby against all the Sheik's a play, and stick with Ganon for everything else (I know it's a pretty tough MU for Ganon, so using Kirby will probably help me).

 

[Bing]

I agree, I feel like Kirby's only decent combo game is on Ganon... Like dont get me wrong, kirby can combo other characters(obviously) but the variety of moves that can be strung together works best with Ganon. Also Chain grabs like a boss..


Now personally I feel that Jiggs is the worse MU....

 

[KirbyKaze]

In that case, I'll try to use Kirby against all the Sheik's a play, and stick with Ganon for everything else (I know it's a pretty tough MU for Ganon, so using Kirby will probably help me).

TBH I think you'll get better as a player by learning the nuances of it with Ganon and developing a creative set of gimmicks to make the swing plays needed to beat Sheik, but not wanting to do Sheik vs Ganon is very reasonable so I don't begrudge you it.

edit:

roflcopter I failed. I misread your first question RaphaelRobo. My bad lololol.

I think Kirby-Sheik is worse than Ganon-Sheik. But Ganon-Sheik is way easier for the Sheik in terms of strategy, and they're also way more likely to know the basics of the MU because Ganon is a commonly fooled-around-with character in casual play (friendlies). So yeah if you wanna use Kirby 'cuz you're already good with him or whatever then it's not a completely horrible idea. Surprise low tier CPs are adorable.

I think as you reach higher level play (should you decide to pursue that path with Ganon) you should strongly consider switching to Ganon vs Sheik, however. Aside from the MU being worse and the higher level Sheiks generally being a gay, campy bunch... a bunch of them also carry pocket Foxes these days because Puff was considered impossible for a while (stupid Sheiks grrr). And Fox-Kirby is... really, really rough on Kirby.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

It's not that I don't want to do Sheik v Ganon, it's that I want an excuse to use Kirby somewhere. If It'll make me better as a player, then I'll learn the nuances of the matchup.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think you'll probably benefit in development of important skills (adaptability, gimmicks, etc) and get more character intimacy from sticking to one character for tournament and toughing it out.

But that's just my opinion.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Alright, thanks for the help. I'll work up the ganon match, and go Ganon G1. However, if I lose G1, then I'll switch to Kirby.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Try Kirby on FoD. I think he might be better than Ganon vs Sheik on that level specifically. FoD generally buffs characters with gay crouch games and fast moves that hit above (to go through the platforms) and that's right up Kirby's alley.

Ganon's aerials also kind of get stuffed by the low platforms and Kirby plays a better ground footsie with his tilts, crouch, and WD vs Sheik in that situation.

 

[Bing]

Kirby on FoD is ****. And yeah actually I try to counterpick any ganon to FoD... Its the same thing as Falcon...

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Ganon hates FoD. If I ever get CPed there, I'll switch Kirby, unless I'm really confident I can do well that day.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fountain of low tier rofl

 

[Bing]

Yay Kirby Dittos on FoD RaphaelRobo lets do it. Shotty White!

 

[KirbyKaze]

ewww monochrome kirby

pacman all dai

 

[Bing]

I dunno, I like all of them... but I play better based on the colour Im using for every character.

Ex. I love Green and Red Fox, But If I go blue, Im ****ed.

Same as for every character(Character/Colour Specific)

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I play Yellow Kirby. I originally played Pink, but PP wanted to use Pink in our dittos, so I switched to Yellow.

 

[bubbaking]

I agree, I feel like Kirby's only decent combo game is on Ganon... Like dont get me wrong, kirby can combo other characters(obviously) but the variety of moves that can be strung together works best with Ganon. Also Chain grabs like a boss..


Now personally I feel that Jiggs is the worse MU....

Every character on the face of the earth comboes Bowser to Hell and beyond. I'm pretty sure even Kirby's combo game on Bowser is better than on Ganon, although it's probably really good for both.

IMO, the spacies (Fox specifically) are worse than Jiggs. Sure, Jiggs gimps Kirbs pretty easily, but getting Kirby offstage w/ Puff isn't so easy. Their bairs are similar enough, and I actually think Kirb's outranges Jigg's. In fact, I think all of Kirby's aerials are better than Jigglypuff's, except for nair and fair. The same probably goes for his tilts and his smashes (with the exception of usmash). The problem is that Puff's superior aerial mobility makes up for her inferior aerials. Still, Jiggs is the 2nd lightest char in the game and Kirbs is the heaviest lightweight. The MU is doable, just hard, but not the hardest. That's what I think, anyway.

Fountain of low tier rofl

I think Sheik still does really well there, though. Spacies, too. Marth probably doesn't get hurt too bad, and Jiggs might like FoD more than Yoshi's (if that means anything). So, it could still be Fountain of top tier, or at the very least, Fountain of anything not C.Falcon/Falcon clone.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I've found Sheik and DK to be easier to combo than Ganon. Although, I also find it easier to combo people with Kirby than with Ganon.

 

[bubbaking]

Ganon combos outside of grab and dair combos......nonexistent. Lolz, jk, but I also find it pretty difficult to combo w/ Ganon. However, I often find I can do things out of Ganon's sideB, even though various ppl I talked to said it isn't that good. Kirby's combo game is solid IMO, but his mobility leaves much to be desired, meaning that starting combos is the hard part. WD>dtilt doesn't lead into much...

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I find Kirby can combo fairly well from his dtilt, ftilt, dthrow, and bair. The other day, I went bair dtilt SH bair, utilt, utilt, uair. It racked up a pretty good amount of damage.

 

[bubbaking]

That a true combo? :O

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I don't know if it's a true combo, but I moved quickly enough for it to work.

 

[bubbaking]

I see. For me, combo starters are usually bair, dair, fair, uair, nair (wow, did I just list every aerial) and all throws except for fthrow (yes, I use bthrow even tho countless ppl have told me not to). I usually just use tilts for poking. I'll look into that...

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think Sheik still does really well there, though. Spacies, too. Marth probably doesn't get hurt too bad, and Jiggs might like FoD more than Yoshi's (if that means anything). So, it could still be Fountain of top tier, or at the very least, Fountain of anything not C.Falcon/Falcon clone.

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