Kirby General Discussion

[Pink Reaper]

I tell them it's Ganon's Uair. I just had a match with a ganon and I ate him so now I have his Uair.

 

[Vaccine]

what is wave dash

 

[Soloist]

what is wave dash

Moving the analog stick back and forth.

 

[ryuu seika]

No, that's dash dancing. Wave dashing is performing a dodge diagonally down during the first frame in which you leave the ground during a jump so as to skid across the floor and gain momentum or travel backwards without turning round. Basically, it's another form of movement that requires skilled fingers to pull off. In my mind it screams physics abuse but apparently that's just me.

 

[Tamoo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjjVqqbCLfw&feature=channel_video_title

 

[ryuu seika]

And that proves what exactly? You'd have to be a fool to consider wave dashing a glitch. It's obvious that, for the sake of semi-realistic physics, momentum must be conserved during any landing state. The problem here is that the momentum is nolonger a side effect but instead becomes the sole intention of the jump and air dodge. I doubt that such an oddity was actually intended but to remove it would require a complete change in physics, loosing a lot of the realism that the conservation of momentum provides. The benefits outweighed the problems, or so it would have seemed, so such a small oddity was left in.
This so called "wave dashing" is a physics "manipulation" similar to that of "snaking" in racing games in that you take a small and harmless approximation in the physics engine and activate it as quickly as possible, repeating it over and over, magnifying the effects ten, twenty or even a hundredfold until suddenly you have a powerful advantage that makes no logical sense outside of that one game.
In short, this is what I term "abuse".

Similarly, have you ever played Runescape? I don't but I know bit about it. From time to time, the game engine glitches and the whole world becomes a PvP zone. If people made an honest mistake once or twice and otherwise only used it when both players wanted a duel or they simply got on with the game as normal, there would be no problem. Is this what happens? No. Cold and heartless players stay up day and night to kill off the hordes of unsuspecting innocents that play the game, simply because they want the money.
Would you argue that this is not abuse? The principles of it aren't all that different.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Do you guys like to use up-b offensively (not the projectile part, but the blade part)?

 

[ryuu seika]

Not really. Occasionally I'll hit recovering Ice Climbers with the projectile or something and I guess I do attack with the blade from time to time but it's really not that great IMO.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Aerial up-b has a good air-to-ground hitbox.

Also, if you catch floaties with a grounded up-b, you get a jab reset into whatever you want.

 

[Tamoo]

Umm some dude asked what Wavedashing was, I posted a video going into good detail... Calm down much?

It's pretty much well established that I really don't care about your opinion on wavedashing, you believe what you want dude.

 

[ryuu seika]

Sorry, I thought you were responding to me as I had given my explanation and opinion just before. I think it's pretty well established that nobody cares for my opinion.

 

[BunBun]

Aerial up-b has a good air-to-ground hitbox.

Also, if you catch floaties with a grounded up-b, you get a jab reset into whatever you want.

up-B is super high-risk, low reward. Never use it if you're near the ledge, as if you get hit out of it, you have NO JUMPS at all. Other than that, I'll use it grounded, retreating, as a projectile occasionally (usually on battlefield, onto a platform).

 

[Massive]

up-B is super high-risk, low reward. Never use it if you're near the ledge, as if you get hit out of it, you have NO JUMPS at all. Other than that, I'll use it grounded, retreating, as a projectile occasionally (usually on battlefield, onto a platform).

BunBun speaks the truth.
Avoid up-B like the PLAGUE.

If you can recover with ANYTHING else, do it. Reserve even the most remote thoughts of up-B related shenanigans to last ditch, this-will-never-work-but-I-have-to-try recovery.

 

[Triple R]

I don't think I ever use Up-b aggressively while my opponent is still on stage. It's just too risky imo. Are you sure you can get a jab reset on floaties? I'll have to look at it again, I'm probably thinking of fastfallers. I know they can roll way before you jab them, but I guess floaties take longer to hit the ground, so I guess you're probably right. I think it's good to note that the downwards swipe of FC can be meteor cancelled, so maybe the floaty could escape it that way.

Also remember that the downward slice's hitbox disappears after the height of origin.
h /
i | Goes up to here ------------> ( ' ' )===
t |
b|
ox\Start at this height ----> ( ' ' )===

no / Goes below---------------------> ( ' ' )---
hit |
box \

The only times I use UpB is for projectile edgeguards, in teams if I think I can catch both of the opponents in it, and very rarely as a retreating or spaced attack on stage.

We should really think of something to talk about guys. I mean it's been over a week since the last post...

 

[Massive]

OK.
The KC crew has had some conjecture on what Kirby's most useful move is, his saving grace-if anything could save Kirby.

I always say that it's utilt, with its well documented shieldpokes and combo starters.

However, several other KC crew guys say that Dtilt (at least the way I use it) is what they dread most about fighting my Kirby. I can certainly understand it, I've done some pretty horrible things to people with wavedash>dtilt. The amount of ledgegimps I get with it is probably what they're referring to, but it also lends itself as an unorthodox and very safe approach.

So, what do you think is a more useful? Utilt or Dtilt?
DISCUSS.

 

[BunBun]

Ftilt, honestly.


TripleR, wat? I did not know that his upB lost hitbox O_o

 

[ryuu seika]

Dtilt is good against characters who have trouble hitting a crouching Kirby. Ftilt is good against slow characters. Utilt has no special usage. All three are fairly good normally though.

Personally, my favourite moves are Fsmash and Fireball but apparently I'm dumb so...

 

[Massive]

I think I only use ftilt when somebody DIs out of utilt/bair range, maybe for freebie knockback.

Fsmash is for those times when you're ready to get punished for doing a ******** slow move.

In other news, I have a buttload of kirby hitbox gifs, but unfortunately whoever created it neglected to include any upward attacks. No utilt, no uair, no usmash. Basically the hitboxes I wanted to see the most aren't there. Dsmash is pretty cool though.

If I get motivated, I'll probably warm up dolphin and finish/post them.

 

[ChivalRuse]

@ Triple R: I'm pretty sure it works. Go test it in training mode at low-mid percents on like Peach. Up-b her from the ground at point blank, then when she hits the ground, jab reset.

 

[Triple R]

OK.
The KC crew has had some conjecture on what Kirby's most useful move is, his saving grace-if anything could save Kirby.

So, what do you think is a more useful? Utilt or Dtilt?
DISCUSS.

That's such a hard question. I guess outta my personal experience I would still say utilt is Kirby's saving grace. I can't deny how much damage a well placed dtilt can muster though, sometimes with hilarious results.

Ftilt, honestly.

TripleR, wat? I did not know that his upB lost hitbox O_o

I've been using ftilt alot more recently too. It comes out pretty quick and I get a surprising amount of quick kills with it even at mid %. I just need to work on using my tilts more in general to be honest.

About the UpB, the more you know BunBun! You can add that to the list with not being able to slide with rock on the left platform of DK64 Of course grounded UpB makes no difference cause you'll hit the ground before going lower from where you start it. But if you do an aerial one, it's something to keep in mind. If you recover from high up with it and fall down to grab the ledge, which you shouldn't due because of no hitbox, lots of people will still shield cause they think there's a hitbox. It's pretty funny, but you're actually a sitting, I mean falling, duck, and they could hit you with anything without any fear of getting hit if they are in the know. Go test it out in training mode. Get the character by the ledge, and put yourself grabbing the ledge. Then just float up above their head and do a FC. When you come down you won't hit them and simply grab the ledge.

Ftilt is good against slow characters.

Personally, my favourite moves are Fsmash and Fireball but apparently I'm dumb so...

I would argue ftilt is good against fast characters too. It's best use is probably wavedash back to ftilt, much like a Sheik would.

Fsmash I'm been using more than usual just as a punish, such as wavedash back fsmash, or if I simply find them lagging something fierce. Otherwise I'll use it's sourspot to add some flair to my combos. For example: utilt -> sourspot fsmash -> utilt -> uair. I find using the sourspot of fsmash is useful when the opponent finally wises up and DIs out of continuous utilts cause it leaps forward following their DI and lots of the time sourspots leading to more hits. At the very least you don't sourspot and it hits them offstage or something. Oh yeah, fireball is still a bad move lol. Most times I do it, it is an accident. I only use it for humiliating tech chases and to firegrab cancel off of platforms.

I think I only use ftilt when somebody DIs out of utilt/bair range, maybe for freebie knockback.

In other news, I have a buttload of kirby hitbox gifs, but unfortunately whoever created it neglected to include any upward attacks. No utilt, no uair, no usmash. Basically the hitboxes I wanted to see the most aren't there. Dsmash is pretty cool though.

If I get motivated, I'll probably warm up dolphin and finish/post them.

I think you use ftilt where I would use fsmash like I said above, but I'm not sure if it's the same situation we are talking about. ftilt would still be a good and probably safer choice though.

I was just thinking about hitbox stuff the other day when I saw that the Mewtwo boards got a really nice thread with them now. I know T!mmy has hitboxes in the Competitive Kirby guide, but you have to click on a link and go to photobucket to see them, and it feels incomplete, missing get up attacks and ledge attacks. I believe Dsmash has blue when you first start the move. I think that means that they are invincible on startup, but I forget. Seeing the hitboxes again would be cool. Maybe you have the attacks that are missing from T!mmy's guide. It would be nice to have what the Mewtwo's have.

@ Triple R: I'm pretty sure it works. Go test it in training mode at low-mid percents on like Peach. Up-b her from the ground at point blank, then when she hits the ground, jab reset.

I'm going to have to check this out lol. I believe you though. I can imagine it in my mind perfectly. I may actually have a situation I could use this in actually lol.

 

[ChivalRuse]

It's kind of ridiculous because if you SOMEHOW ever get them in a situation where you can jab reset them, you literally can combo the up-b from the jab reset into ANOTHER jab reset. LOLOL.

Also, I definitely prefer u-tilt over d-tilt!

 

[Pink Reaper]

U-Tilt is kirby's best move.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yes. It's essentially Fox's u-tilt with less knockback. But that's okay because we can combo into uair at higher percents.

 

[ryuu seika]

If I were to jump over somebody at the edge while using aerial forward B so as to hit from behind with only the last two hits, would those hits still drag them offstage if they shielded? I'd need another player to be able to test that myself.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yes, test that.

Also, do you guys know if Kirby has any actionable invincibility if he perfect ledgedashes?

 

[Triple R]

If I were to jump over somebody at the edge while using aerial forward B so as to hit from behind with only the last two hits, would those hits still drag them offstage if they shielded? I'd need another player to be able to test that myself.

You mean if the person was shielding by the ledge? I'm pretty sure it could. Characters can move around when they are in shield. Kinda like SDI but while you're in your shield. So if they were close enough or they did it to themselves you could possibly pull them off. Even if you could it's probably not a good idea. You lag heavy after the hammer and would go below stage and your opponent would recover before you for sure as long as they stay calm and try to edgeguard you.

It's kind of ridiculous because if you SOMEHOW ever get them in a situation where you can jab reset them, you literally can combo the up-b from the jab reset into ANOTHER jab reset. LOLOL.

Yeah, i noticed that while trying it out in training mode. Sounds like a fun way to mess with noobs. That reminds me that on fast fallers you can sometimes jab reset after the forth hit of fair since it has set knockback, and if you are technical enough and your opponent sucks you could do it across the stage. Just fair -> wavedash in and jab.

Since I was bored I went and tested this on all the characters. I'll list some things I noticed when going through. All the useless and cool stuff you would all need to know

Note these are ground upb unless noted otherwise. Also note, depending on the character, many can meteor cancel the downward slice.

- It works, not sure if it works at 0% but it does for sure after you tick some damage on.

- Easier than Dr. Mario.

- Works.

- Doesn't work, he usually gets hit by 4 hits: up, down, beam, and beam2

- Works, but she can meteor cancel into a double jump cancel nair or other attack to punish our lag.

- Sometimes Yoshi will get hit by the beam. He can also punish just like Peach with a double jump cancel.

- Seems to always get hit by the beam.

- Too fast, gets hit by beam.

- Don't remember, but I'm pretty sure he gets hit by beam.

- Too fast.

- Too fast. Something kinda useless though. It looks like the downward slice knocks him down and then the beam resets him. You obviously can't do anything about it though.

- Can jump cancel to punish us. It sets him up perfectly to punish us with his dair into cool combos. Let's not tell anyone.

- It works, but you can only jab reset Popo. Nana never gets reset, she'll probably hit you with a get up attack.

- Works. I wonder if the Kirby getting hit could meteor cancel into an UpB of its own and hit us before we recover from lag.

- Works.

- Works.

- Doesn't work.

- Doesn't work.

- If I remember correctly, it works.

ichu: - Works. Funny because Pichu cries out in pain like it was hit far even at 0%.

- Works. Could probably UpB meteor cancel to safety though.

- She flies too high up and doesn't get him by the downward swipe. If you do an aerial one close to ground it connects though, but if she DIs towards you on the down hit she can rest you as she lands. She may also be able to meteor cancel into sing. Not sure if we recover before she would fall on us with that though.

:mewtwo: - Can jump cancel punish with nair.

- Works.

- Works.

- Works.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Ah! Thanks for testing it on the cast, Triple R. I had only tried it on several floaties.

 

[Triple R]

Also, do you guys know if Kirby has any actionable invincibility if he perfect ledgedashes?

I'm assuming you mean doing a perfect waveland from the edge. I'm actually not sure how long Kirby is invincible for after a waveland from the ledge. He's not the quickest from the ledge, so I doubt he gets much, but there's probably a little bit.

If you're talking about something else, my bad lol

 

[ChivalRuse]

No, that's what I meant. Hm. I feel like he at least has invincibility for most of the waveland animation, if you do it right, though.

 

[Massive]

Cool, slightly useful things I've been toying with:

If you backjump after a moonwalk you get more horizontal momentum, about the same as jumping from standing forward. It isn't huge, but it lets you do some jigglypuff-esque pokes with bair.

Also, during the first 3 frames of the bair hitbox, the hitbox is covering all but the very front of kirby.

Here's the exact frame:

I'm sure we've all hit with this hitbox before, but how safe you actually are is easily visible in this shot. During these 3 frames (frame 6-9, to be exact) Kirby is basically a flying hitbox.

EXPLOIT THIS. I use it to gimp recoveries, you should too!

 

[BunBun]

Lol, Kirby can upb jab upb jab Kirby?


Sounds like the most epic ditto ever.

 

[BunBun]

EDIT: BTW Massive, instead of moonwalk, just do it out of a wavedash. SUPER ****ING LONG RANGE BACKAIR

 

[Massive]

EDIT: BTW Massive, instead of moonwalk, just do it out of a wavedash. SUPER ****ING LONG RANGE BACKAIR

I already do that, most of the movement for that occurs on the ground though.

You can use this to chase their momentum off the edge captain falcon style.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Lol, Kirby can upb jab upb jab Kirby?


Sounds like the most epic ditto ever.

Yes. It's delicious.

 

[ryuu seika]

You mean if the person was shielding by the ledge? I'm pretty sure it could. Characters can move around when they are in shield. Kinda like SDI but while you're in your shield. So if they were close enough or they did it to themselves you could possibly pull them off. Even if you could it's probably not a good idea. You lag heavy after the hammer and would go below stage and your opponent would recover before you for sure as long as they stay calm and try to edgeguard you.

I think I can actually combo it into a Uair if it works, though I obviously haven't tested it well. If I can, it's a low % KO on FD.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I like using aerial hammer when I have platforms to reduce my lag.

 

[Triple R]

No, that's what I meant. Hm. I feel like he at least has invincibility for most of the waveland animation, if you do it right, though.

Yeah, he probably does have invincibility during part of his waveland. His waveland isn't that hard to do either, you just have to get used to his small double jump height. I have to remember to waveland onto stage more when I refresh my invincibility. I neutral getup more than is good for my health.

Thinking of ways to get up from the ledge. It's not really that useful I just think it's cool. If you double jump from the ledge and barely get on stage (well it's not hard to make it, I just don't know another way to describe it besides not jumping above stage level.) Kirby looks like he just deflates and ends up in normal standing position seamlessly. It's actually kinda slow, but probably a better option than neutral getup. I guess you could relate it to Hugs way of getting back on stage sometimes with Samus, where he just stands, or like a Ganondorf but just slower lol.

If you backjump after a moonwalk you get more horizontal momentum, about the same as jumping from standing forward. It isn't huge, but it lets you do some jigglypuff-esque pokes with bair.

Also, during the first 3 frames of the bair hitbox, the hitbox is covering all but the very front of kirby.

I'm sure we've all hit with this hitbox before, but how safe you actually are is easily visible in this shot. During these 3 frames (frame 6-9, to be exact) Kirby is basically a flying hitbox.

God, I just need to sit down and learn moonwalking lol. I've never really learned it. I know Kirby's isn't huge, but it's still a nice little trick to throw in there once in a while.

Yeah, that hitbox is kinda neat. Cool combo on spaceies. Get them offstage and fair them a couple times and if they are only getting hit by the first 2 hits then end the combo with a reverse bair for the kill by hitting them with that front back. Mad sexy. Actually it looks kinda sloppy, but lots of Kirby's combos look janky as is lol.

More hitbox pictures

I think I can actually combo it into a Uair if it works, though I obviously haven't tested it well. If I can, it's a low % KO on FD.

I can assure you with 100% confidence that you can not actually combo hammer into uair. Even if you ledge cancel the hammer I don't think the hits of hammer generate enough hit stun for anything to combo. Maybe you could land a lucky uair, but that would involve Kirby recovering from mega lag and the spacie or whatever jumping into your uair.

I like using aerial hammer when I have platforms to reduce my lag.

Yeah, platforms are nice for hammer just to keep your opponent guessing when they try to punish you for hammer. I sat down about a month ago and tried to ledge cancel hammer consistently. While not impossible, it is not really a reliable tech. That won't stop me from trying to ledge cancel it in friendlies and maybe in the future, when I'm more confident, in tourney. I mean a ledge cancelled hammer could easily lead into a bair if you do it awesome like.

As of right now, I almost never use hammer versus spacies. It's just too risky for the punishment they can dish out. I tend to use hammer against big slow characters like Ganondorf. You can usually dish out some decent damage to him if you catch him in the air. Plus a possible follow up is never a bad thing. I actually like using aerial hammer against Falcon too. I find it to be somewhat reliable. It catches him very well. Too bad he will almost always recover before you finish with lag on the ground. On the plus side there is a very high chance you will duck under his likely grab when you land, because Kirby squishes when he hits the ground and dodges high attacks.

 

[ryuu seika]

I can assure you with 100% confidence that you can not actually combo hammer into uair. Even if you ledge cancel the hammer I don't think the hits of hammer generate enough hit stun for anything to combo. Maybe you could land a lucky uair, but that would involve Kirby recovering from mega lag and the spacie or whatever jumping into your uair.

Actually, I know for a fact that Uair will hit Fox after Hammer pulling him off the edge without him jumping, possibly due to Kirby starting falling before Fox does. You may well be right about the lag giving him time to attack or evade though, as said, I can't really test that.

 

[BunBun]

It does not combo according to training mode.


Which means you've just been shined by fox off the stage. Goodbye stock.

 

[Pink Reaper]

as if foxes see it coming or something lol. Fox players dont know what to do against kirby, it leads to stuff working that shouldn't.