Kirby Everything -- Kirby Social Thread

[SazoonTheBoon]

I posted a list on page 15 about what I want. But to make things quick...

Spoiler: changes, lets see how many I get right

Inhale needs to be reworked, not nerfed necessarily, where kirbyciding is basicallly useless but his onstage use of a command grab is the same. I would also remove the grab armor on it but increase the range. And if the opponent mashes out they pop upwards, and is easier to mash out, but faster to starshot or copy. Also copy needs a little bit of hitstun. Also inhale shouldnt stay out infinitely if you hold B.

I think Dash Attack needs like a total overhaul, even if its very punishable it shouldn't be your approach move if your opponent messes up 99% of the time. I always thought maybe a quick shorter fireball with less priority would be the best (think Fox's or Peach's dash attack but on fire but with current endlag). I know its a big nerf but he should be buffed in a lot of areas

For one his air mobility needs buffing, not to Puff level but somewhere around the middle.

Overall range on a lot of his ariels increase on startup hitbox frames. Say the beginning of his bair stretches a little farther than it does now on the first frames of the hit, then goes back to normal afterwards. Same goes with all his ariels except nair.

The beginning hitbox of up-air should hit diagonally up and forwards just like in melee. But the other hitboxes remain the same.

Dair, Ive come to the conclusion, should either act basically exactly like Yoshi's. Or the last hit of dair is an actual spike.

Dtilt needs to force tumble at like ~50% at least.

Dthrow needs to almost always tech chase, even at high %s. This sounds like a nerf, but overall it helps in the long run. Dthrow just needs less end lag, like almost right after they pop up you can move. Fthrow needs to become his combo throw so it should have a more vertical kb angle. Bthow is his edgeguard throw fine as is. And Uthrow should reliably kill around 120% on midweights on FD.

Dsmash needs a little more range, and a slightly longer lingering hitbox to kinda match his spinning animation, but the added part is a sourspot.

His ground speed is also limited. Characters at his same speed (Falco, Mario, etc.) have better wavedashes than to compensate. I feel his wavedash should at least match Samus'.

And there are a lot of "small" things i would change to help kirby's pressure. Like a little more power on his first two jabs, a longer/sooner autocancel window on his sh fair. Utilt does a more shield damage, shiled stun same as now, not broken 64 status but enough for the opponent to fear it, totally can get shield grabbed if misspaced. I would alter rock in some way, its very similar to MK's dair and look how that turned out. I would change his fast fall speed (not his fall speed) to match Pika's. Grab range to match Pit's. Final Cutter should only grab ledge backwards if sweetspotted. The sweetspot of up-smash should be as powerful as Fox's, while the early sourspot should be his current sweetspot. And of course all copy abilities act exactly like the original, but im all for buffing the "bad" neutral-bs of every original character.

... so much for making things quick lol

even if half of those got implemented it'd be cool. We'll find out in a few hours tho c:

 

[Kaysick]

http://projectmgame.com/en/news/project-m-3-5-changelist

Kirby changes:

Spoiler

Tilts
-Up Tilt
--IASA on frame 24.
--initial and lingering hitboxes changed to match melee.
---Initial: 8 DMG, 92 angle, BKB changed from 60 to 40, KBG changed from 85 to 118/114
---Linger: 6 DMG, 88 angle, BKB changed from 55 to 40, KBG changed from 111 to 118/114

Smashes
-Down Smash now active two frames faster (frame 8).

Grabs/Throws
-Dash Grab range reduced to remove grabs behind Kirby's arms.
-Down Throw now sends horizontally forward instead of keeping the opponent above Kirby.

Aerials
-Neutral Aerial lingering hit range reduced.

Specials
-Neutral Special (Inhale)
--Jumping into the air with a swallowed opponent no longer grants Kirby unusually high drift speed.
--Now allows holding up to release with a higher trajectory
--Can no longer drift while inhaling.
-Neutral Special (Copy)
--[Samus] Charge now stores properly.
--[Marth/Roy] cleaned up.
--[Ness] lifetime of PK Flash reduced and aerial vertical momentum during charge increased.
--[Mario] now matches Mario's fireball IASA.
-Aerial UpB Forward (Cutter Dash)
--Plus 4 frames of ending lag.
--Can no longer be air dodged after and consumes all but one jump.
-Down Special (Stone)
--Light armor removed on start-up before transformation is complete (frames 1-7).
-Increased amount of time before Kirby is able to cancel his fall.
-Falling hit box changed to be worse as a combo starter, but to KO slightly earlier.
-Landing hitbox damage down from 14 to 10.

Others
-Dash Attack
--Plus 3 frames of ending lag.
--Now no longer clanks with attacks and is easier to hit.
--No longer grab invulnerable.
--SDI on hits more effective.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

rip in pepperoni project m kirby

 

[Phan7om]

Idk i was playing him and I was completely fine with the changes. The whole cast feels very melee like.

 

[skellitorman]

The main problem I have with Kirby's changes is not just that there were no significant buffs as compensation for the nerfs, but the stupid things on other characters that I was expecting to get nerfed just didn't happen.

I am glad that inhale (particularily for kirbyciding) got nerfed, but why is Copy STILL at disadvantage on fast fallers such as Fox? Kirby's copy abilities are still the same in usefulness and he doesn't even have Ganon's neutral B (or Mewtwo's still).

Dash attack deserved to be nerfed so that it wasn't safe. However it is now more difficult to combo afterwards on hit because of easier SDI and more end lag. I don't see any reason why they changed it the way they did instead of making it more laggy when it hits a shield like Wario's side B. This way it can't just be thrown out, but is still good when used properly.

Stone and Cutter dash lost massive amounts of utility especially offensively. Luckily they are both still useful, just in very specific situations.

Basically Kirby's offense was reduced, which was an area that he already lacked in. Now Kirby will have to play even more fundamentally solid while other characters still don't have to because they just have way better tools.

Nevertheless, as a whole, the game was changed for the better. Hopefully in the next update, they address some things that I feel should have definitely been addressed in this update.

 

[Phan7om]

I tested in debug mode, if you do a frame perfect ledge dash you get 8 frames of invincibility, so you can do an invincible Dsmash and anything slower like reverse up-tilt, sh nair, or grab to name the lesser obvious ones.

 

[FreeGamer]

All these nerfs and all he gets to compensate is a faster D-Smash? Laaaaaaaaame. Oh well, at least Hammer wasn't touched.

 

[Pfhor]

I don't know how much people have experimented with the new down throw but it seems like he gets tech chases on every character , even ones that used to be weird like Mewtwo just go right to the ground. Will have to test in actual match conditions to see how consistent it truly is but I'm liking it in theory, I'd rather have consistency on every character than how it was before.

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

I think everyone getting nerved recoveries is a huge plus for kirby. The recovery nerfs to him tho aren't that big of a dea compared to others. Even with those nerfs, he still has one of the strongest recoveries now. Also is everyone glazing over up tilt? It's so good now because it shoots them straight up and sets right up for so much. It's also really good for bairing to then set up for an edge guard. The tech chase is also pretty amazing too and isn't as awkward as before. I actually think kirby is one of the more solid characters after this update. But to be fair I haven't seen many characters atm, but from what I've seen he looks pretty good.

 

[Phan7om]

I don't know how much people have experimented with the new down throw but it seems like he gets tech chases on every character , even ones that used to be weird like Mewtwo just go right to the ground. Will have to test in actual match conditions to see how consistent it truly is but I'm liking it in theory, I'd rather have consistency on every character than how it was before.

yeah its an auto tech chase throw now, i love it.

 

[Pfhor]

Just a random thing to know, Zsuit's new non-tether grab/dash grab won't catch kirby crouching at all. Don't remember if her old grab did or not.

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

Just a random thing to know, Zsuit's new non-tether grab/dash grab won't catch kirby crouching at all. Don't remember if her old grab did or not.

My friend started playing a lot of zero suit, and kirby does REALLY well against her

 

[Random23]

Overall happy with the changes, didn't get nerfed too badly in comparison to most of the cast. Any changes that came in I think were pretty fair and just getting rid of 'silly' stuff. Off stage game will destroy all these nerfed recoveries!

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

Overall happy with the changes, didn't get nerfed too badly in comparison to most of the cast. Any changes that came in I think were pretty fair and just getting rid of 'silly' stuff. Off stage game will destroy all these nerfed recoveries!

Hey I watched your set when you beat professor pro! Really enjoyed watching you.

 

[Phan7om]

Just a random thing to know, Zsuit's new non-tether grab/dash grab won't catch kirby crouching at all. Don't remember if her old grab did or not.

Thats where they ****ed up (not really lmao, it just really helps us) they gave her a normal grab and now Kirby is a lot harder to fight... or rather ZSS is easier for us to fight. Before we at least had to spotdodge or be out of range to punish her laggy grab, but now we can just crouch into any smash attack or a grab of our own. But im not complainin lol.

 

[skellitorman]

I do agree that this, along with her recovery nerf, will help Kirby in the MU significantly. ZSS still has the main things that cause this MU to be in her favor though.

Something completely unrelated though: Has anyone encountered a glitch where Kirby instantly lets go of the edge after using UP+B? I have only been able to do it like 3 times, and I don't know what causes it yet.

 

[Magus420]

D-throw also can combo into tilts on floaty characters once they have some damage on them, and on middle fallers you can do tech/DI traps like d-tilt (maybe turnaround u-tilt?) to cover DI in to avoid having to tech the throw, will hit no tech, have time for 2nd d-tilt for tech in place, and regrab if they tech behind, leaving tech away to avoid that setup, which you could instead run and f-smash or something.

 

[Jinjo64]

Kirby feels amazing. I fight my bro in puff dittos and the match is now a work of art instead of annoying. His air mobility overall feels faster and he responds a lot faster to my commands. He is a very solid character alone and will probably end up being god tier for doubles. Up air is a lot better too. Great for juggling early on, kill off the top, or use the semi spike. His Dair also feels a lot better as well. I mean I do think this Kirby is better than 3.0.

 

[Unwavering_Canadian]

F**K THESE NERFS!!! If I wanted a slow puffball with no offensive options I'd play Sm4sh. These nerfs are awful, Kirby is trash, I'm swapping mains.

 

[Unwavering_Canadian]

RIP Kirby 2014-2014

 

[FreeGamer]

It becomes less infuriating once you realize that almost all of the roster got similar nerfs. >_>

 

[Unwavering_Canadian]

The game was fast and enjoyable in 3.0. Kirby had some good approach options. The nerfs have taken away his offensive game, and his combo game. Sure, you can still play slow and enjoy the edge-guard game but he's not the versatile character he used to be. So much disappoint.

 

[Jinjo64]

The game was fast and enjoyable in 3.0. Kirby had some good approach options. The nerfs have taken away his offensive game, and his combo game. Sure, you can still play slow and enjoy the edge-guard game but he's not the versatile character he used to be. So much disappoint.

Are you kidding me? His huge weakness was camping...now opponents have nerfed safe options and less projectile camping. Hes faster in the air and his fireball still leads to an easy utilt. Utilt leads to up air, up air, up b to bring them back down, and then continue. Kirby is now about creativity and no longer is spamming fireball or down throw your only options for efficient combos. This kirby is amazing and I am managing to beat friends with this Kirby I couldn't beat before. So think about that.

 

[chaosmasterro]

Stone was a great combo starter why was that nerfed?

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

I don't think it was nerfed, just redone. But the reason why side cutter, dash attack, and stone all got nerfed, was because the pmdt wanted the game to seem less janky, and get rid of more erratic movement\recovery options.

I think the nerf to forward cutter was fine because because when you look at other characters and see how their recoveries got nerfed, we got the long end of the stick. Pikachu and Metaknight both lost huge parts of their recovery game. You can also still use the last extra jump after you hit someone in neutral with it.

However, I think dash attack is a lot crappier now. I would've preferred shortening the length or something else, but now da can't even start combos reliably anymore.

As for stone, I never really explored rock much, but I think it's better now. At higher percents (against the opponent), falling rock is a good way to deter them from chasing you in the air because it kills at like 110 percent or something like that.
But kirby also got some great buffs and now his punish game is so much stronger. Up tilt pops them up at a much nicer angle and not as high, so follow ups are much more solid and guaranteed against most of the cast. Also I like that downthrow actually tech chases super well now and just makes it so much easier to tech chase.

Over all this is a pretty controversial update imo, but I hope to see the community grow rather than fall apart and leave because their main was changed.

If anyone disagrees with any of this, please tell me why.

 

[skellitorman]

Stone is indeed nerfed.

When approaching the opponent from slightly above, Stone was a very strong option. If the opponent blocked Stone it used to be completely safe on block (if you let both hits hit and then cancel immediately and fade back) and did a lot of shield damage.

It was possible to avoid and punish by spot dodging, but if Kirby canceled stone in anticipation of that, then he could get the punish. On hit it was a great combo starter and led into his main KO attacks.

Furthermore when trying to juggle Kirby, Kirby could use stone to avoid most followup attempts (given that he had enough time to Stone) and cancel as necessary in reaction to the opponents movement.

Now if Kirby does use Stone there is a significant risk involved. Because of the weaker ground hit, it is no longer safe on block, and because you can't cancel it early the opponent can bait and punish reliably.

Do I agree with the stone nerfs? Absolutely. Stone is still useful since its the same speed and now it KOs making it more useful as an attack in situations where it was previously not possible to followup.

Stone now has a balanced risk/reward which is a good thing.

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

Stone is indeed nerfed.

When approaching the opponent from slightly above, Stone was a very strong option. If the opponent blocked Stone it used to be completely safe on block (if you let both hits hit and then cancel immediately and fade back) and did a lot of shield damage.

It was possible to avoid and punish by spot dodging, but if Kirby canceled stone in anticipation of that, then he could get the punish. On hit it was a great combo starter and led into his main KO attacks.

Furthermore when trying to juggle Kirby, Kirby could use stone to avoid most followup attempts (given that he had enough time to Stone) and cancel as necessary in reaction to the opponents movement.

Now if Kirby does use Stone there is a significant risk involved. Because of the weaker ground hit, it is no longer safe on block, and because you can't cancel it early the opponent can bait and punish reliably.

Do I agree with the stone nerfs? Absolutely. Stone is still useful since its the same speed and now it KOs making it more useful as an attack in situations where it was previously not possible to followup.

Stone now has a balanced risk/reward which is a good thing.

What do you think some of the new uses of stone could be? It has quite high knockback, but how would you combo into it?

 

[FreeGamer]

A move like that probably doesn't have any reliable setups. I'd bet it's best used to punish a whiffed aerial/anti-air.

 

[Pfhor]

OH my god his new uptilt is bugging me out, hitstun lasts for sooooooo long you can do uptilt into ground hammer on fox at certain percents and it's a true combo.

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

With the nerfs to his approach options and buffs to his downthrow and up tilt, he seems to play a lot like melee shiek and puff together

 

[skellitorman]

What do you think some of the new uses of stone could be? It has quite high knockback, but how would you combo into it?

There is no point in ever comboing into stone since it is just slower and weaker than Up air.

It's still useful if you want to fall really fast. You can still use it to break juggles given that you have enough frames of startup (14) except that there is now more risk. Obviously it can still be used in a punish situation.

The main advantage that it has now though, is that it has the same reward regardless of how many jumps you have and where you hit the opponent. In 3.02, if you didn't have enough jumps to combo after the Stone and you were too far from the ground, then you dropped the combo, whereas now you get the potentially KO hit.

 

[Jinjo64]

Fun fact: I use stone or hammer to finish off people recovering with about 100+%. Stone is very reliable kill move now and in doubles its just funny to spam it. Easy to get punished, but oh well. Also Bairs seem to link better now....anyone else feel the same?

 

[Queasy Mac]

Fun fact: I use stone or hammer to finish off people recovering with about 100+%. Stone is very reliable kill move now and in doubles its just funny to spam it. Easy to get punished, but oh well. Also Bairs seem to link better now....anyone else feel the same?

The infamous Kirby floating around and stoning the entire match is the new meta

 

[Phan7om]

Ive known this for quite a while, and Im sure some of you guys have too but I proved it with debug mode.

Normal crouch takes 5 frames to become flat, although he is significantly low on frame 3, which is about as low as our wavedash. Dtilt forces you to crouch all the way on frame 1. So I could see Dtilt being a psuedo-shine, making your aerials "safe" on characters that cannot grab a crouching Kirby, and since dtilt comes out frame 4 it makes it hard for even Frame 3 jumpsquat characters to attack oos.

Spoiler: Grabs he can duck

Peach^
Falcon*
Zelda
Sheik
Ganon
Mewtwo
Lucario
Ike
Marth^
Roy^
Snake^
ROB
ZSS
Pit*
Bowser*^

* At a certain further distance
^ Fast up-b oos, watch out!

And Im curious what Up-Smash can do. At the beginning of up-smash, there are a lot of things Kirby can avoid like Pits arrows (un angled), a lot of upwards f-tilts, and probably much more. He keeps getting lower as you charge it so it might avoid a grab at some point... thats like the ultimate mindgame. And dsmash also gets pretty low after you use it, that might be able to avoid a grab idk. Same with wavedashing, im sure we avoid a lot of stuff that would normally hit us if we were standing or running. We gotta test this stuff out.

 

[FreeGamer]

Falcon still can't grab our crouch? I thought he got a grab range buff specifically to make that MU better for him.

 

[Random23]

That dtilt tech sounds really sick, I was using it as part of my pressure already but had no idea it worked like that. Great find!

 

[Player -0]

Falcon can grab most crouching characters with a dash grab I believe. Not with his regular one though.

 

[Pfhor]

Falcon got a grab buff but he still has to do a perfectly space dash grab to hit crouching Kirby. He has to space it so that he passes through Kirby a bit and hit with the grab sphere behind his character model.

 

[FreeGamer]

He's still wide open to get smacked with a D-Tilt then? Good news is good. :D

 

[Phan7om]

Im convinced our U-Air is the best U-Air in the game **** ZSS, **** Pika, **** MK, **** Fox.

It has amazing combo potential with its autocancel timing, and with late falling u-airs. It can kill like at 100%, depending on how high the opponent is to the ceiling. And I just tested this in debug, the back hit of uair IS (basically) Sheik's F-air... not only in terms of knockback angle and power, but you know how sheiks like to SHFF F-air for pressure on shield and stuff, our U-air does the exact same thing. Both has 4 frames after the hitbox ends before the move autocancels. I think the only difference is sheiks does 13 while ours does 12 (but both have 7 frames of shield stun, with -1 frame adv), and hers might be a stonger in knockback, and the start-up is different of course. Ive kinda known this for a while back in the brawl days but I didnt know it was this good! Also this can be used along side the d-tilt thing I said above, only thing is it takes one frame to turn around so we'd be crouched on frame 2 instead of 1, dtilt would come out frame 5, utilt would still come out frame 4 after we land. Kirby's pressure is looking mad good!