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Kid Icarus Uprising

Linkshot

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They really should make some patch or glitch within the game that deletes gems of weapons you've already obtained.
Fixed that for you. Duping exploits look terrible for designers.

Honestly the only reason MKDH and I are complaining about OHKOs is because the game deserves better defensive strats than "Use defensive boosts or don't get hit", not because "baw I can't dodge".

The quickest fix would be to raise a fighter's health to 400, and then give the Angel all the Air Battle boosts weapons normally get. The default timer is already 6 minutes. I'm sure even Value 100 weapons could smash buffed teams down in that time.
 

DunnoBro

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You can raise your health/def yourself with handicaps, can't you?
And no, weapon gems are the only sane way to make specific weapons.

And if you feel OHKOs are ruining the game, make it so they aren't OHKOs. Simple as that.

It also isn't "use defensive boosts or dodge" There's also bumblebee, reflect barrier, aries armor, and even freaking celestial fireworks if you have them in your sights.
You're not forced to use defensive modifiers, but you are forced to use SOME sort of defense. Go figure. In fact, the most effect weapons in my experience are the ones which do consistent damage, rather than OHKO damage. (Like eyetracks, compact, midknight, etc) OHKOs tend to deal poorly with being rushed, which any decent players would do.

Personally I feel the only reason you guys are complaining is because you have bad weapons.
 

Life

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Use defensive mods, Reflect Barrier, Warp, Bumblebee, Playing Dead, Celestial Fireworks, Super/Aries Armor, TRADE-OFF (surely you remember your old friend, MKDH), Brief Invincibility, Pisces Heal, or any of a gazillion other powers, or status them (if they're frozen, they can't attack, that counts), or avoid them and hit a teammate you're more suited to counter, or don't get hit*

I play flipping FLINTLOCK STAFF (you know, the slow, glass cannon, no-homing weapon with effectively no melee attack that's supposed to get pinned down and die whenever a Claws player glances at them) and unless I'm being focused down I almost never die more than once. (In LVD randoms. I have yet to join a clan. Maybe Sky Kings? Unless Smashboards counts as a clan.)

As the meta stands right now, weapon mods are for offense, and powers are for defense. As people get better at making OHKO weapons (read: using value more efficiently and not going for overkill), your tank weapons will be more useful. But that's not the meta right now. Evolve or die.

Also, you know what happens when a game gets too defensive? People whine and play the prequel. :brawl: Be careful what you wish for.

Apologies for the caps and bold, it's been a crappy morning. I don't know why I even bother.

After spending half an hour writing that, I get ninja'd by four minutes. >_<
 

DunnoBro

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Tank weapons will never be meta, unless it's a Living Shield Support for LvD.
You can still have a weapon able to OHKO and yet not be able to BE OHKO'd. Don't even need energy charge.

But ******** amounts of od and health alone will never do anything on their own.
(Fun Fact: You can have a od +8 health +6 speed +4 OCKO ogre club under 300 value)
 

RespawningJesus

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You know what's everyone's problem here is?

Why so serious?

I will mostly blame weapon fusion and the fact that it is highly unlikely people will ever get the weapon of their dreams. It drives some people mad.

Also, OHKOs are fair game. Its like the rocket launcher or sniper rifle from Halo: it can be a OHKO when aimed right, and it is annoying for the person on the receiving end. It happens.

:phone:
 

Supreme Dirt

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You're bad and you should feel bad.

The issue that they're complaining about is the excessiveness of 1hkoing in the game, not that they exist.
 

Linkshot

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And no, weapon gems are the only sane way to make specific weapons.
Good, then there won't be excessive amounts of streamlined weapons. If you get one, it's through sheer luck.

I'm not bad at the game. I myself have 5 OHKO weapons, all of which just popped up out of the blue.

I think the only reason you want to preserve easy streamlining and super-offense is because if it changed, then you'd have to adapt to a harder meta, one without a clear cut winning strategy. Plus you'd lose your "pay to win" advantage of having 2 3DS.
 

Master Knight DH

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Handicaps won't allow for RAISING defense. Just reduce it, which is pointless.

"And if you feel OHKOs are ruining the game, make it so they aren't OHKOs. Simple as that. "
HELLO? I put defense mods on my cannons. Getting killed in too few hits is an inherent problem.

Let's see which of the listed powers will do anything to the Flintlock+Eyetracks combo.
Bumblebee? Nope. That will get ripped apart by rapid fire.
Reflect Barrier? Thanks for using a stationary defense to combat a combination that can do it better. And Eyetracks won't even care about that, especially since the RB will remove the Slip Shot and homing traits.
Aries Armor? Right. Play Advance Wars, experience the trouble with the Infantry+Artillery spammage thanks to lack of suitable 1HK ability on the pests in combination with terrain effects cutting only a percentage of damage rather than a set amount, and then get back to me on this.
Celestial Fireworks? You'll waste all your uses to survive the Eyetracks.
Trade-Off or Brief Invincibility? Nice job, you're doing the exact same thing as the IT abuser. *GASP* The game's magically balanced! (To say nothing that the third player could just as easily have Virus to shut you down.)
Pisces Heal? That extra life isn't going to do any better than Aries.

And your weapon standards are ridiculous. Skyscraper shouldn't have high defensive power? Okay, then how would they survive being kited? And don't say they're going to do the kiting, unless you want to prove that CANNONS are impossible to outcamp at range. Skyscraper NEEDS defensive power to shake off rush pests. Admit it: my Skyscraper is good enough to be above average AT LEAST, and you're only being arrogant.

Also, your point about the game being too defensive? That's exactly what will happen with the Flintlock + Eyetracks combo.

And since I'm on the subject of overly defensive games: you want to know why Advance Wars Days of Ruin toned up offense, to the moderate at best credit I'll give it? Because in the past game Infantry+Artillery spam was DOMINANT, for how painfully slow both unit types were. Infantry could simply meatshield, and if you couldn't 1HK them well enough to cripple the Artillery force, the healthy Artillery pieces would proceed to slaughter your attacking units, especially starting with anything controlling closer spaces to have the backup Infantry retake them to allow for dealing EVEN MORE DAMAGE. Here's the problem: there isn't a single unit costing less than 20K that deals more than 105% base to Infantry, and when terrain kicks in, 96 Net Attack generally becomes impossible to manage ON YOUR PHASE; and anything under 16K deals at most only 80% base to Artillery.

The reason I have issue with Days of Ruin's toning up of offense? Let me list the reasons:
*Damage gaps haven't been handled better. AA Tank VS Infantry is STILL 105% base (when 96 Net Attack is STILL hard to get with the bloody thing), but meanwhile, tanks are STILL susceptible to being killed too quickly. It's a problem when the War Tank is still 4HKed by a 72 Net Attack Artillery, not the hardest thing to manage anymore.
*Terrain cover nerfing. And I don't mean the City's switch with the Forest, which would be fine by its lonesome. I mean that the usefulness of cover is just plain AWFUL now. Percentage damage itself is also bad because it doesn't punish low damage attacks well.
*Infantry are 1500G. Thanks for slowing down games and indirectly nerfing vehicles.
*Mechs are 2500G. Because they weren't spammed in the old games before infantry were found to cost effectively defeat them.
*Light Tanks STILL self-counter. Unless you can explain what besides a staple unit that is inherently good in the early game aggravates FTA to the level of FTA counter necessity.
*AA Tank is the ONLY non-tech direct-fire unit that can 1HK infantry. When it's already necessary for dealing with air units on a funds disadvantage. (Battle Helicopter is a good candidate for infantry 1HKing, because that is rightfully susceptible to self-countering, and already dies instantly if hit by the AA Tank.)
*Artillery are still not reasonably 1HKed. Medium Tank deals only 85% base and anything with only quadruple digits price doesn't deal more than 75% base.

There are probably more idiotic things, but I think I have covered what's necessary.

Point is, too much offense is inherently bad. Some 1HKs are okay, but being able to pull them should require BLATANT OUTPLAYING AND VERY GOOD REASON! Range 1HKs in a game where anti-melee tools are around and even useable does not require considerable outplaying and needs IMMENSE justification.
 

RespawningJesus

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You're bad and you should feel bad.

The issue that they're complaining about is the excessiveness of 1hkoing in the game, not that they exist.
And I still feel fine. =D

Even if it happens excessively, most weapons that can OHKO still require a certain level of skill. Even then though, no use complaining about it until it gets patched. If it gets patched. =/ Let's just have everybody cool their jets a little, alright? All of this arguing is starting to loop.

I should start playing again to see what the fuss is about.

:phone:
 

---

鉄腕パドル!
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Definitely have played against a few super offensive people if you've seen me complain a few times here (+3 range and homing with 6 Star Range and using Energy Charge/Slip Shot/Homing Boost) so I can understand each side, but I personally like to think I play a balanced game.

I use a Viridi Palm with 6 Star Range, +1 Defense, +3 Speed and +2 Stand Ch. Shot. So I like to think it's a solid weapon overall (for LvD).

I usually rely on powers both for more offense and defense:

Mega Laser - Helps me get past Reflect Barriers, snipe Snipers back, and use it to get in on people.

Black Hole - Helps hold down campers, even occationally I'll use it to pull snipers down from their hiding places.

Land Mine - Great for placing in areas people where walk around the most on a certain stage, great next to key jump pads and small walkways.

Warp - Defense and if I'm lucky, sneaking up on people.

Interference - Shuts down offense and defense and makes escaping (Warp) harder.
 

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Having an ohko weapon is retardedly easy, hell just make a 3.5 melee ogre club and BOOM. Ohko damage. Being able to OHKO doesn't make weapons good, nor do they make you good. Try making an OHKO, consistently hitting, hard to kill, and otherwise versatile weapon. Then we'll talk, but just OHKOing isn't anything to be proud of beyond the first week of KI:U's release.

like i said, if you're dying from a few hits, it's because you can't find a midway between defense, and power. Because you're just a walking target with some decent ability to take hits, but no ability to stop the hits from coming.

And let's try to avoid comparing real time action games to turn based strategy games.

Getting good weapons should be luck? Really Linkshot? What kind of BS is that? I don't want to play RPS: Uprising.

Also i find it weird you complain about Range 1HKOS, and yet eyetracks can't ever OHKO without both almost or exactly max damage(this means full-health boost/IPAB), proper spacing, and poor dodging/timing when they have homing boost up. (Or they get freezing off with a homing +3 Range +3 Version, but that's hit or miss anyway)
 

RespawningJesus

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Ohhh, now I see why this is such an issue. Sadly, I cannot fully express my mind, or else I would violate forum rules.

Let your imaginations run wild. All in all, this OHKO discussion is stupid and getting old.

:phone:
 

Linkshot

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I use a Viridi Palm with 6 Star Range, +1 Defense, +3 Speed and +2 Stand Ch. Shot. So I like to think it's a solid weapon overall (for LvD).
Also sounds good enough to take on the Ch. 13 9.0 challenge.

Getting good weapons should be luck? Really Linkshot? What kind of BS is that? I don't want to play RPS: Uprising.
It wouldn't be completely luck. Certain chapters pump out certain weapons. Run them at low difficulties to create fusion fodder instead of duping weapon gems.

Also I wasn't implying that having the weapon made me good. Trust me; I'm obsessed with this game. I know how to play LvD. I'm just really upset that what, at first look, seemed amazingly balanced, has boiled down to "This weapon easily OHKOs from a retardedly safe position. Why aren't you using it?" and requires either a ton of excessive grinding for fusion fodder (which is kind of bad), or pay-to-win to dupe weapon gems (which is completely intolerable). Both opinions are from a designer's perspective.

Thinking about it more, what bugs me the most about ranged OHKOs is it comes down to "miss one dodge and die". Yes, I could make a weapon to specifically be tanky, but then it's just 2 mistakes instead of one and I have far less offensive pressure.

Maybe I'm not amazing at the game (I still need to complete a handful of solo challenges, after all), but I'm not bad at it. I know how it works and it looks like the metagame is just going to get staler from here.
 

RespawningJesus

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Blame people for being so stupid. They want to take the easy way out.

As for balance, the game was never balanced. Which is why I jumped out of it and lost interest in multi player. Nintendo/Team Sora really need to release a patch for the game soon.

:phone:
 

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Also sounds good enough to take on the Ch. 13 9.0 challenge.



It wouldn't be completely luck. Certain chapters pump out certain weapons. Run them at low difficulties to create fusion fodder instead of duping weapon gems.

Also I wasn't implying that having the weapon made me good. Trust me; I'm obsessed with this game. I know how to play LvD. I'm just really upset that what, at first look, seemed amazingly balanced, has boiled down to "This weapon easily OHKOs from a retardedly safe position. Why aren't you using it?" and requires either a ton of excessive grinding for fusion fodder (which is kind of bad), or pay-to-win to dupe weapon gems (which is completely intolerable). Both opinions are from a designer's perspective.

Thinking about it more, what bugs me the most about ranged OHKOs is it comes down to "miss one dodge and die". Yes, I could make a weapon to specifically be tanky, but then it's just 2 mistakes instead of one and I have far less offensive pressure.

Maybe I'm not amazing at the game (I still need to complete a handful of solo challenges, after all), but I'm not bad at it. I know how it works and it looks like the metagame is just going to get staler from here.
The problem is, if you were actually able to freely create weapons and test them like me, you'd know ranged ohko weapons aren't the balance-killer you think they are. It just happens to be one of the easier ways to make good weapons. They're essentially the ikes of kid icarus.

Honestly, you guys complain about everything.

"omg compact is broken because playing dead"
"omg eyetracks is broken because loop"
"omg ohkos broken cuz im dead"
"omg melee is broken because rushing"

I get it, being OHKO'd isn't fun, but making weapons overall harder to make doesn't help the problem, at all. If anything it makes it worse as the stronger players stay stronger, almost entirely regardless of pvp skill or strategy.

But when there are so many viable strategies and options, can you really call one broken over another just because you can't deal? I don't think so.

The bottom line is, you guys are severely limited in your ability to create weapons. So how can you call something broken when you can't even test it, or put into place theories to counter them?
Like i said, get some shot defense and you'll find yourself a lot less whiney.
 

Master Knight DH

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---, those powers are generally shut out by Trade-Off.

And powerhouse, I already put Lightweight on heavy weapons. It isn't sufficient to close the distance. The game screws up by making strong kiting even worse, because the only way to regain powers is to freaking die.

Also, Eyetracks with Slipshot don't have to 1HK. They're forcing WAY too much dodging on the opponents' part to deal with the Flintlock guy. And when somebody gets ganged up on by a range 1HK team, THEY'RE DEAD. No questions asked. You could be Levin or Sety from Fire Emblem 4, equipped with Holsety and its ridiculous Speed boost for insane evasion, and you're still never going to dodge well enough to hope to touch any of them before they kill you from all the pressure.

Compact Arm with PD, I don't find broken, just aggravating, but good heavens, Playing Dead needs to be nerfed.

Arms are aggravating if that's what you're referring to. But I for one am fine with club-induced 1HKs. You let the sluggish Melee Tornado get next to you, you generally deserve everything you get. Arms? Wow, you totally deserve 240 damage from a very mobile Overall DEF +8 guy with Aries and Lightweight.

And tell me to get Shot Defense for weapons that shouldn't need it in the first place, just to handle a shallow strategy made stupidly strong and thus STILL will stamp said weapons flat anyway, when said weapons need Overall/Melee Defense to deal with claw rushes. GIVE ME A BREAK.

Here's what I'd do: tone up fighter health (Linkshot is thinking 400, which definitely sounds good), tone up clubs, ESPECIALLY their smash swings, which are stupidly weak and counterintuitive, and maybe still tone down a few powers.
 

DunnoBro

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Trade-off is garbage lmao. Ruins your powerboard for a short surge of juggernauting. Not only does it suck against good players, but with real tournaments which have longer matches, it's far less helpful.

And i stopped reading after you started to bring teamwork into this, as there's no evidence beyond theorization for certain combinations to be unbeatable.

But for the record, a Range 1HK team would get demolished by just one guy with a reflect barrier, or one ohko high speed melee player.
 

Master Knight DH

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Trade Off does NOT ruin the powerboard. The shape isn't awkward, just minorly confining. In fact, it's better off than Aries Armor, because Aries Armor is generally not enough to keep you from being killed within 20 seconds anyway, not unless you want to waste it evading attacks. And anything that can be used to get away from Trade-Off users can be used to get away from Aries users, only Aries users will have less mobility and don't have that stupid invincibility, so they get attacked before the escape is pulled.

Though I will agree that tournaments will avoid that dumb 900 TLG limit that randoms suffer.

But for the record, a Range 1HK team would get demolished by just one guy with a reflect barrier, or one ohko high speed melee player.
Reflect Barrier? That doesn't work against Slip Shot. You will remove the Slip attribute AND the homing attribute, making it useless on the Slip Shot Eyetracks guy. IT Flintlock will laugh at your cute stationary defense. And the third guy is already reacting to your stuff to begin with.

High speed melee player? Virus. Thanks for the free TLG damage.
 

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Trade Off does NOT ruin the powerboard. The shape isn't awkward, just minorly confining. In fact, it's better off than Aries Armor, because Aries Armor is generally not enough to keep you from being killed within 20 seconds anyway, not unless you want to waste it evading attacks. And anything that can be used to get away from Trade-Off users can be used to get away from Aries users, only Aries users will have less mobility and don't have that stupid invincibility, so they get attacked before the escape is pulled.

Though I will agree that tournaments will avoid that dumb 900 TLG limit that randoms suffer.



Reflect Barrier? That doesn't work against Slip Shot. You simply

High speed melee player? Virus. Thanks for the free TLG damage.
No, trade-off does ruin the powerboard unless it's a short match or you have a VERY specified weapon to abuse it. (ED+4 IPAB+6 Phosphora bow type thing) Don't expect players to try taking you on while trading off like the scrubs online do. They'll avoid you like the plague and you'll be hard-pressed to kill any good players... And after that, you're pretty much useless.

It works against scrubs in their 5 deaths, you're out default playing style but with higher TLG, higher level players, and ESPECIALLY FFAs it's garbage.

Reflect barrier works on slip shot projectiles, not sure what you're smokin.

And quite frankly, This "A counter to the broken play? Well they might have a counter too!" is dumb because not only is Virus an unlikely power in a Range OHKO set due to being unsynergetic with their powers, playstyle, and strategies... But we can take it a step further and just say the melee player casted interference first.

Warp however, would've been an acceptable counter. However only finite and easily used up.

See how ridiculous it is?

Edit: Just because his shots won't hit him, doesn't mean the reflect barrier is useless. Stop trying to have your cake, and eat it too. You need to actually THINK to beat your opponent. It shuts down their ability to kill you, so you can kill them with your own ranged weapon, or if you got close enough, just prevent them from strafing properly.
 

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MKDH, I'm going to take your scenario and have a crack at conquering it with an overall useful strategy, too. You say the Eyetracks stay close to the Flintlock to cover it, right?

An infiltrator strategy would be able to mostly neutralize them. Speed, Transparency, and Interference. A teammate with a lower value Slip Shot OHKO (Darkness Bow, looking at you) would then quickly pick them off as Eyetracks can't refresh their Slip Shot, and Flintlock can't refresh its invinc nor just Warp away.

In the end this is still all just theorycrafting, but I have faith that no strategy needs a counter that's specifically tailored; just a general one that happens to beat it down.
 

Life

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re: MKDH deathball

Remember that Eyetracks also have terrible shot cancellation. That could probably be abused somehow.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/997768-kid-icarus-uprising/63266703

Enemy Flintlocks and other snipers (of the traditional, kill-you-from-100m kind, not the shot range minus kind used in a deathball) also wreck basically anything that could be described as a deathball, unless said deathball also includes a sniper--which makes it 50-50, provided that the deathball sniper isn't occupied taking out someone else (like a slightly suicidal ally claw rushing the deathball down), and ignoring that the reward for the lone sniper is much higher than the reward for the deathball sniper.

See also: Invisible Shots Clubs, Transparency-MDA weapons, Slipshot in general, Guardian Orbitars, waiting...

You know what the problem is? You're very guilty of moving the goalposts. The strategy can have a contingency for one counter, therefore it has no counters, you say.

Allow me to turn it around on you. Marth is broken in Brawl. Prove me wrong.

re: OHKOs

Getting rather sick of this TBH. I showed you, what, about a dozen ways to not get OHKO'd? They work, you're just bad. Sorry.

And BTdubz, everyone in this thread needs to read more Sirlin. Just 'cause it beats you doesn't make it broken.

DAK, what makes you think anyone here is angry? ;) (Seriously, people are allowed to feel more than one emotion at once. I'm rather annoyed at the scrubbery going on in this thread, but I also kind of enjoy arguing with it. What's wrong with that?)
 

Linkshot

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Scrub Accomplishment: Finally beat Ch.3 9.0 w/ Blade today. Used a First Blade with a variety of useful stats and good stars with the power set QC / TO / PD / Rnd. Thanks to you guys for teaching me that Playing Dead stays active if you stand still, I just slaughtered the final ambush effortlessly.
 

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I had trouble with 9.0s until i tried with aurum orbitars... crushed everything with the 200+ damage output for ever other second.
 

Master Knight DH

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Getting rather sick of this TBH. I showed you, what, about a dozen ways to not get OHKO'd? They work, you're just bad. Sorry.

And BTdubz, everyone in this thread needs to read more Sirlin. Just 'cause it beats you doesn't make it broken.
You didn't show me more than HALF a dozen, and the ones you showed me are ALL far from foolproof.

You're the one who fails. You say I need to lrn2play against the broken tactic? Guess what? I can simply USE the broken tactic. Which only confirms that the game IS NOT BALANCED. But I guess that's fine by you, that the whole game is nothing but a shooting gallery to you.

You lrn2play before comparing me to those claw user idiots who ******* melee rush my clubs and thus do my own job for me.

Oh, and by the way, EYETRACKS' SHOT CANCELLATION ISN'T USEFUL TO KNOW ABOUT.
 

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☯ I need to post here more often since most of my time playing Light vs Dark, I would enjoy it more when I get a high value Viridi Claws with max melee.
 

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Braxton I don't understand what's going on.
21:30 MKDH Here's why the power system does so: when you activate powers, you have to die to recover them. Club users have to use powers to hope to catch faster opponents.
21:31 MKDH When they're still easily kited USING POWERS, they're simply screwed.
21:33 Braxton What club are you using.
21:34 MKDH You realize that all of them have blatant blind spot problems, right?
21:35 *** Linkshot joined #theuprising
21:35 Braxton You realize you didn't answer my question.
21:35 Braxton What club are you using, man.
21:36 Linkshot I think he uses Skyscraper
21:36 MKDH The answer doesn't matter anyway.

Yea, no need to talk to someone like this. Carry on.
 

Life

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What blind spot? j/w

Did my first 1v1s just now with Braxton. Lost most of them, unsurprisingly.

things I learned:

1. Flintlock is useless in 1v1, especially with wifi lag
1a. I hate and am bad at 1v1.
1b. Because I hate and am bad at 1v1, I will never have credibility on GameFAQs.
2. Melee dash attacks are useless in laggy 1v1 (but not as useless as flintlock)
2a. However, if they are on a sufficiently fast weapon, you will likely not get hit
3. The only games I won were with Phosphora Bow and gradual wearing down
3a. Ergo, Phosphora Bow is good in 1v1
4. Cover is good.
4a. Slipshot is good, I'm just bad with it
5. Small Arena is bad (as evidenced by the fact that I won one there).
6. I need to use Tirelessness more. Would have won one of the games except that I was down to 1HP due to Trade-off and couldn't quite kite him until the timer went off (he was using stealth claws too).
6a. Not getting hit is a good strategy.
7. 1v1 is way different from the six-player formats.
8. If the final score is 0-0, either the host wins or the player with the lowest value wins (probably the latter, given that FFA usually has more than 2 people).
9. I really need a good Samurai Blade. They're boss.
 

RespawningJesus

So Zetta slow!
Joined
Dec 15, 2011
Messages
1,365
Location
California
NNID
RespawningJesus
3DS FC
1590-5236-9299
Switch FC
SW-5266-0424-0233
So, got finished with some LvD matches tonight, and I still love the fact that my Drill arm still wrecks players.

Also, made an Aurum Orbitar, and I just destroyed everything. Aurums are my favorite orbitar now.

Now, time to work on unlocking the rest of the powers and weapons.

:phone:
 

FlareHabanero

Banned via Warnings
Joined
May 20, 2012
Messages
16,443
Location
New Jersey
If you're going to experiment with cannons, keep in mind that cannons ether have very fast rapid fire or slow powerful shots and have a large blast radius good for whiping out groups of opponents. Their melee power is also subpar, especially the akward melee dash attack.

If I had to personally pick a cannon, it would have to ether be the Twinbellows Cannon or the Ball Cannon.
 
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