What does that mean for these percent ranges: 9-11%,14-16%, 18-20%?
It’s never a true combo in these percent ranges, I just didn’t feel like testing every single percentage.
9-12% – 2 frame window
13-14% – 1 frame window
15-17% – 2 frame window
18-21% – 1 frame window
There's no real reason to miss the DI on fthrow in Marth dittos. You can react to it pretty easily with practice.
React? No, you can’t, unless you have reaction times of less than 7 frames as I have explained in the OP. From what I have read so far, 120 ms is the top amount of reaction time one can hope to achieve, so I don’t believe reacting to it can be easy. Anyway, dthrow doesn’t have proper followups in Marth dittos anyway, so just holding down and away should escape everything the grabbing Marth could do out of fthrow or dthrow.
I know, I just feel like up-throw is a waste of your grab in a marth ditto.
No way. From 13-63%, you get a guaranteed uair against Marth from an uthrow, whereas fthrow and dthrow followups are pure gimmick.
You can still miss the DI if they down-throw when you expect a forward-throw or the other way around. I'm pretty sure you can react to it either way, but you can still mess it up.
No offense, but the idea of this thread is to stop these “I think this is possible” – “I think this not possible” arguments and find out the truth by looking at micro-interactions with TAS precision. So please, don’t make claims here that you cannot properly back up – it defeats the purpose of this thread. Correct anti-fthrow-DI (down and away) does not leave you open after dthrow, so there is no risk of “missing the DI”. Also, like I wrote above, reacting to fthrow/dthrow is probably impossible for humans.
At very low damage you can f-throw into f-throw, and a little higher than that it forces a tech at least.
It’s not guaranteed. The thrown Marth simply needs to hold down and away the entire time – this will make perfect dash- or JC-grab (both are equally good here) whiff by one frame as it will “buffer” a
Turn that moves him out of reach.
The tech force, however, is really interesting. I suspected for a long time that Marth has an infinite techchase against himself with fthrow, and it seems this is true. It’s just a little hard for me to write about it as techchasing depends so much on reaction times, and I still haven’t found a reliable source on what kind of values I should assume.
In short, you can punish tech in place, no tech and techroll behind all with (shield)grab on reaction and techroll away with wavedash tipper fsmash.
There's a lot more than goes into uthrow > utilting Sheik than I would've imagined. Kadano, I was under that impression that double jumps are just bufferable out of hitstun, period. Are there situations where this isn't the case?
Yes, indeed. It is a weird phenomenon that I don’t fully understand yet. What I have observed so far is that
DamageFlyN 29 gets repeated many times until the total hitstun amount is over. So let’s say an attack causes 60 frames of hitstun, then
DamageFlyN 1-29 will play normally, but then frame 29 will repeat for 31 frames. After hitstun frame 60, you enter
DamageFall that can be interrupted anytime.
The last 21 frames of
DamageFlyN 29 iterations can buffer a jump. So in the example above, pressing Y after hitstun frame 39 will trigger a jump just when
DamageFall would start, but pressing on 38 or earlier will not.
After an uthrow, you don’t enter
DamageFlyN, but
DamageFlyU. This animation does not have this frame-repetition at all, so it will play on to frame ~60 (depending on percentage before hit) and then transition to
DamageFall without any jump buffer frames whatsoever.
There are many different
DamageFly* animations:
N, N2, N3, Top, High, Roll, Air, Air2, Air3 and probably some more I haven’t encountered yet. I am not sure which of these exactly have the jump buffer property; some seem to only get triggered on low knockback, so they never get to frame 29.
Also, perhaps I'm misinterpreting this, but are you saying that prior to 22% vs Sheik, you should just uthrow > forwarding facing utilt, regardless of DI?
I avoid
should-sentences wherever I can, so no, I’m not saying this. Also, on 0% before uthrow, Sheik can trade with nair. This is only true for 0% – at 1% before uthrow, she can’t hit you. Thus, you might want to pummel her once at 0% if you get the grab, but I’m sure you know that quick players can mash out before you get to that.
Personally, I will always go for uthrow → uair on 1-30% from now on. If the Sheiks I face are good at getting that 1-3 frame window, I will stop using it before 22% and go for dash away (to move out of falling nair range) → dd react to her choices and hope to get a safe fair or uair.