Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

[Kadano]

There is no other option that covers vertical sweetspots. If your reaction time is slower than 10 frames, you can only edgehog or run off fair on prediction and hope that they indeed go there and don’t ↑B or B onto the stage.

I’d really like to tell you “if your reaction time is ~14 frames, there is also the option of running down and doing a shine”, but unfortunately, Marth just doesn’t have that. It seems we need to accept that the spacies’ recoveries are excellent if executed (near-)perfectly.

 

[swanized]

Is it possible to edgecancel while facing towards the end of a platform? I can edgecancel upairs really easily if my back is facing the edge of the platform but can't seem to get it done if I'm facing forward. Marth always gets stuck on the end and I end up doing an upsmash.

 

[AustinRC]

So when edge guarding Sheik I noticed that when she up b's right where the edge is when you are holding it you are forced to roll dodge because of the flame hit box. I haven't tested it yet but would it be possible to just air dodge up with her then fast fall and grab the ledge? Or just jump a certain height from the ledge and then air dodge?

 

[Kadano]

Is it possible to edgecancel while facing towards the end of a platform?

Yes, you need to hold forward at the end to cancel the Ottotto (ledgetumble) animation before it even starts.

So when edge guarding Sheik I noticed that when she up b's right where the edge is when you are holding it you are forced to roll dodge because of the flame hit box. I haven't tested it yet but would it be possible to just air dodge up with her then fast fall and grab the ledge? Or just jump a certain height from the ledge and then air dodge?

No, because as soon as you let go of the ledge, Sheik will grab it and punish you for wasting your second jump in that position.
Sheik can also grab the ledge while her flame hitbox is still out.
Ledge invincibility is enough to stay intangible until her flame hitbox is gone, but your ledgegrab timing needs to be close to perfect (not earlier than 7 frames before she could grab it from her ↑B’s first rising part).

Sheik can grab the ledge from her ↑B starting on 311 19. Thus, you need to grab the ledge within 18 frames after she starts her ↑B. Wavedashing while looking towards the stage takes at least 12 frames until you edgehog, so with only 6 frames remaining, we can count out edgehogging on reaction to her ↑B (6 frames reaction time is most likely impossible). You need to predict her ↑B timing in order to get the correct timing.
From a well-timed edgehog, you can cover all her options on reaction, I think. If she angles her explosion (I elaborated on that here) towards the ledge or straight upwards, you roll one frame before your invincibility ends. If she angles it diagonally towards the stage, you ledgedash on reaction and punish her (fsmash comes out in time for reaction times below 17 frames).

 

[Bones0]

Is there a thread that gives a character by character breakdown of ledge option frame data? I thought I remembered a Magus thread with it, but the one I subbed to only had tech frame data and throw stuff.

 

[Kadano]

Maybe you mean this?: http://www.angelfire.com/games5/superdoodleman/frames.html

 

[Bones0]

Maybe you mean this?: http://www.angelfire.com/games5/superdoodleman/frames.html

Yeah, I copied that into the Falco hitbox thread, but it didn't have what I wanted.

I was specifically looking for ledge occupancy to see what ledge options give you possession of the ledge for the longest. Like we all know Bowser's ledge attack is OP largely because he is in possession of the ledge the whole time he is rolling around, but to actually compare the frames of that with his ledgestand or ledgeroll (or even ledgejump) would be interesting (gifs not really necessary imo). If you don't want to do every character, you should at least do Marth and Falco. /bias >.>

 

[Kadano]

Ledge occupation is the same as animation length, except for ledgejumps. For those, it seems to be just as long as the move’s innate intangibility (confirmed that for Falco, didn’t test others so far).

 

[swanized]

okay, next question. If it is possible to do a forward facing edgecancel, can you edgecancel a fair to knock a shielding opponent off of a side platform and immediately reverse up-B them?

 

[SUNG475]

^I've done it with nair reverse up b before but I think if they ff immediately after sliding off it wouldn't work

I guess it depends on the character, don't think jiggs can escape

 

[Bones0]

Turnaround up-B =/= reverse up-B

Reverse up-B with Marth is awful and should probably only ever be used off stage while gimping. Turnaround vs. normal up-B is irrelevant if you're hitting with the initial hitbox. /petpeeve

But yeah, of course if you ledgecancel you can up-B. If the opponent is facing the edge he slides off, he will also be able to attack immediately as well (most likely before you because it's extremely hard to space a fair so late that you ledgecancel the same frame he gets pushed off). If it's a spacie who is ready to shine or even bair, you might get hit first. Up-B is fast though, so if done properly it could definitely work.

 

[Kadano]

okay, next question. If it is possible to do a forward facing edgecancel, can you edgecancel a fair to knock a shielding opponent off of a side platform and immediately reverse up-B them?

After a perfectly timed and spaced fair, it takes 7 frames to bring the ↑B hitbox out (1 frame LandingAirF, 1 frame Ottotto, 5 frames 321).
Fox spends 9 frames in MissFoot (falling off the stage from a shield). If he fastfalls as soon as possible, it’s only 4 frames. Thus, like SUNG475 wrote, Fox can escape by fastfalling and has a 4 frame window for doing so.
Jigglypuff can escape by fastfalling too. It’s a 2 frame window for her, though.
For Marth, it’s a 3 frame window. For other characters (not gonna test everyone, haha), it depends on gravitation and hurtbox alignment.

Reverse up-B with Marth is awful and should probably only ever be used off stage while gimping.

So I guess what you refer to as reverse up-B is hitting the opponent towards behind you?

 

[Bones0]

So I guess what you refer to as reverse up-B is hitting the opponent towards behind you?

Yeah, I mean, that's what "reverse" means for any other attack in the game. It's when the move sends in the opposite direction of what it is normally used for. Reverse fair sends them backwards, reverse bair sends them forwards, reverse fsmash sends them backwards, etc.

 

[Kadano]

That makes sense. So far, I adopted “reverse up-B” unreflectively, but it really is an incorrect term. Though I don’t like “turnaround up-B” too much either; that sounds like doing a Turn out of neutral and then using up-B. Maybe we can settle for “orientation-reverse up-B”?

 

[Bones0]

That makes sense. So far, I adopted “reverse up-B” unreflectively, but it really is an incorrect term. Though I don’t like “turnaround up-B” too much either; that sounds like doing a Turn out of neutral and then using up-B. Maybe we can settle for “orientation-reverse up-B”?

No offense, but you come up with the worst names. Stage Collision Detection Quadrilateral something-or-other? lol

We should make it easy on ourselves and adopt something already accepted like skater lingo. All of my skateboarding knowledge ever is derived from Tony Hawk on the N64, but iirc it'd make sense to call reverse aerials "fakie" since you are going the opposite way. Idk what that would make reverse up-Bs... Maybe "switch up-B"? >_>

So if you fair an opponent and knock them behind you into a dair, that would be a fakie Ken combo. If you up-B someone off stage and turnaround during it to grab the ledge, that'd be a switch up-B. Someone who actually skates would have to confirm that makes sense. lol

 

[Kadano]

Sorry, as a non-native speaker I know hardly any of these short, casual terms so I try to at least be precise with those I use. I’m always open to suggestions – I stopped using SCDQ as soon as I learned of Magus420’s ECB term.

But isn’t it wrong to refer to the attack itself as reverse when it really is only the hit that is reverse? Maybe we should call it something like “reversely hit fair” / “fair reverse hit” to distinguish from attacks that can itself be reversed, like Marth’s up-B.

 

[Bones0]

Sorry, as a non-native speaker I know hardly any of these short, casual terms so I try to at least be precise with those I use. I’m always open to suggestions – I stopped using SCDQ as soon as I learned of Magus420’s ECB term.

But isn’t it wrong to refer to the attack itself as reverse when it really is only the hit that is reverse? Maybe we should call it something like “reversely hit fair” / “fair reverse hit” to distinguish from attacks that can itself be reversed, like Marth’s up-B.

LOL I was just joking man. But yeah, I'd be fine calling it a reverse up-B, but it's annoying that reverse stands for two totally different things. Though it honestly doesn't matter because Marth/Roy's up-B is one of the few attacks that are actually where you have the option to change directions aside from other recovery moves which are rarely used to attack with.

 

[swanized]

After a perfectly timed and spaced fair, it takes 7 frames to bring the ↑B hitbox out (1 frame LandingAirF, 1 frame Ottotto, 5 frames 321).
Fox spends 9 frames in MissFoot (falling off the stage from a shield). If he fastfalls as soon as possible, it’s only 4 frames. Thus, like SUNG475 wrote, Fox can escape by fastfalling and has a 4 frame window for doing so.
Jigglypuff can escape by fastfalling too. It’s a 2 frame window for her, though.
For Marth, it’s a 3 frame window. For other characters (not gonna test everyone, haha), it depends on gravitation and hurtbox alignment.

So I guess what you refer to as reverse up-B is hitting the opponent towards behind you?

so basically marth has no attack with which he can undoubtedly hit fox after an edgecalled fair to knock him out of his shield?

 

[Kadano]

so basically marth has no attack with which he can undoubtedly hit fox after an edgecalled fair to knock him out of his shield?

That’s correct.

 

[Tee ay eye]

kadano have you ever gotten around to looking into DI options against falcon and sheik?

:O

 

[Kadano]

kadano have you ever gotten around to looking into DI options against falcon and sheik?

:O

Sorry, completely forgot about that one!
Let’s see.
At ~56% after upthrow, no DI and backward DI make it the easiest for Falcon. His full jump knee will hit you wether you jump out or not.
Forward DI is good, but nowhere near safe. His FJ knee hits you if you try to jump out, his SH knee hits you if you don’t. Instant second jump doesn’t have any advantages for him over SH here.
⇒ Hold full forward and jump out ASAP half of the time or on reaction if your reaction time is 9 frames or less (short hop ⇒ jump out). This will only lower the risk of getting hit by a knee; nair and uair are still guaranteed.

Until at least 80%, nothing changes. Then, at about 87% after upthrow, Marth flies so high that even with full forward DI, FJ knee will connect regardless of whether you try to jump out or not.

I’m too tired to carry on right now, but now that I’ve started, I don’t think I’ll forget about it again! =)

Edit: Also, here are two Magus420 references: http://smashboards.com/threads/scar-talks-lean-melee-2012yotf.197123/page-144#post-8894919
http://smashboards.com/threads/offi...ars-stuff-thread.118998/page-88#post-10559985

 

[Kadano]

(unintentional double post, please delete)

 

[Bones0]

Is forward DI when you DI towards the opponent, or away from them?

 

[Kadano]

I usually speak relative to the orientation of the attacking character, so it’s away from him – in the direction he is looking.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

so basically marth has no attack with which he can undoubtedly hit fox after an edgecalled fair to knock him out of his shield?

Try the nair on a fox shielding on the edge of a platform. First hit knocks off, second hit hits.

ALSO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KzKthR12SU&feature=youtu.be

WTF. Why does this work? Do dash grabs have a secret property of being able to grab opponents lying on the ground?

 

[SAUS]

Try the nair on a fox shielding on the edge of a platform. First hit knocks off, second hit hits.

ALSO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KzKthR12SU&feature=youtu.be

WTF. Why does this work? Do dash grabs have a secret property of being able to grab opponents lying on the ground?

I think the fox CPU stood up as soon as he could so he was just starting to stand up. Not 100% sure though.

 

[Bones0]

Try the nair on a fox shielding on the edge of a platform. First hit knocks off, second hit hits.

ALSO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KzKthR12SU&feature=youtu.be

WTF. Why does this work? Do dash grabs have a secret property of being able to grab opponents lying on the ground?

It works because the hitbox for Fox's dash grab goes lower than his standing grab. It's the same thing that allows Marth to grab a crouching Jiggs with a dash grab but not a standing grab.

 

[Kadano]

Try the nair on a fox shielding on the edge of a platform. First hit knocks off, second hit hits.

If Fox neither uses SDI∨ASDI nor fastfalls after the first slash pushes him off, yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KzKthR12SU&feature=youtu.be

WTF. Why does this work? Do dash grabs have a secret property of being able to grab opponents lying on the ground?

I explained it in the comment section there as it doesn’t really belong here.

 

[1MachGO]

Hey Kadano, if you have the time, I have a couple more questions for you:

Between wavedashing, cancelling run with crouch, and dashing to turn>instant pivot, which option allows you to attack at the greatest distance in the shortest amount of time?

Also, could you potentially do a breakdown for using Marth's counter as a punish against Falco's lasers in close range? How effective is it? Can Falco shield on reaction to block a counter?

Finally, does side-b have any potential for producing inescapable combos or is it just a gimmick?

 

[SUNG475]

Not really marth specific,
1. Can you dash immediately out of a pivot stop? I've been trying but I can't do it immediately.
2. Could you give an image of peach's hurtbox while she's floating? That skirt is super deceptive.

You're too good Kadano

 

[Kadano]

Smashboards won’t let me paste my answer. This is just a test to see if a text only written within here gets accepted.

Hey Kadano, if you have the time, I have a couple more questions for you:
Between wavedashing, cancelling run with crouch, and dashing to turn>instant pivot, which option allows you to attack at the greatest distance in the shortest amount of time?

All of these options are the fastest in their respective starting range if done in their basic way:
• If you want to start your next action within 14 frames, pivot is your only option.
• If you want to start your next action after 15 frames or later, wavedash also becomes available (4 Kneebend, 10 LandingFallSpecial, first frame of new action). Because it keeps you sliding during your follow-up action (unless you cancel it with a dash), it will cover more distance than a dash-turn within the same frame window.
• If you want to start your next action after 19 frames or later, run-cancelling also becomes available (15 Dash, 1 Run, 1 RunBrake, 1 Squat, first frame of new action). Because, other than with wavedash, you can trigger RunBrake and thus your next action 2 frames afterwards, during any time during Run, it’s easier to place your next action at a certain spot than with wavedash, where your movement unit cooldown is 13 instead of 2 frames.

 

[Kadano]

However, there is a way around this that makes running obsolete for some situations it is currently used: By dashing a few frames before you wavedash, you can place your follow-up action in any spot you could place it with run-cancelling. For example, the fastest run-cancel as described above could be replaced with dashing for 4 frames and then wavedashing. This has exactly the same duration as the run-cancel, but covers a tiny bit more distance – assuming that your control-stick angle was very close to the perfect 343° that yield the maximum sliding speed.

If you are asking yourself right now whether this means that Marth’s consecutive wavedashes are faster than his dash→run: Yes, if you are able to consistently pull out 343° angles for your airdodges and start them with a dash, it is indeed faster. To give you an idea of the speed difference: To dash from the one edge of DL64 to the other, it takes 89 frames if you simply run, and 86 frames if you dash for 4 frames and then do perfect wavedashes all the time.
If you do perfect wavedashes, but don’t dash at the beginning, it also takes 89 frames.

 

[Kadano]

Also, could you potentially do a breakdown for using Marth's counter as a punish against Falco's lasers in close range? How effective is it? Can Falco shield on reaction to block a counter?

It’s not very good frame-wise. Because the counter pseudo-hitlag doesn’t affect Falco, he has 10 frames after landing lag before the counter hitbox comes out. If he doesn’t choose to dash away, jump above you or roll behind you during these frames and simply waits in front of you, he still has a total of 17 frames to react to your counter and shield or even powershield it.

Finally, does side-b have any potential for producing inescapable combos or is it just a gimmick?

It is a gimmick. Inescapable? Not even close.

Not really marth specific,
1. Can you dash immediately out of a pivot stop? I've been trying but I can't do it immediately.

The Turn animation has a total duration of 11 frames. This is true for most if not all of the cast.
Dashing is disabled on all Turn frames except for the first. Additionally, crouching and using neutral-B is disabled during the entire animation.

2. Could you give an image of peach's hurtbox while she's floating? That skirt is super deceptive.

 

[Tee ay eye]

these aren't marth-specific questions, but...

1. in teams, when you're holding someone, and your partner hits the opponent out of your grab (strong hit, like fox u-smash), how soon are you able to act after that?

2. how does throw invincibility work, and is it the same for different throws/characters?

 

[Kadano]

1. As soon as the grabbed character is hit by an attack strong enough to break the grab, you enter DamageN1. This animation lasts 11 frames and has IASA starting on frame 8 (frame 9-11 can be skipped by performing any action).
Because you don’t experience any hitlag, you have an absurd amount of frame advantage, especially if your mate does a high-damage electric attack. I’ll do some videos about the crazy stuff this allows for.

2. Magus wrote something about grab invincibility here: http://www.smashboards.com/threads/detailed-throws-techs-and-getups-frame-data.206469/

These two phenomena allow for ridiculously easy zero-to-death team combos – you can react to your partner doing a strong attack with upthrow, thus ensuring you are invincible and don’t get hit by a knee by mistake.

 

[Bones0]

1. As soon as the grabbed character is hit by an attack strong enough to break the grab, you enter DamageN1. This animation lasts 11 frames and has IASA starting on frame 8 (frame 9-11 can be skipped by performing any action).
Because you don’t experience any hitlag, you have an absurd amount of frame advantage, especially if your mate does a high-damage electric attack. I’ll do some videos about the crazy stuff this allows for.

2. Magus wrote something about grab invincibility here: http://www.smashboards.com/threads/detailed-throws-techs-and-getups-frame-data.206469/

These two phenomena allow for ridiculously easy zero-to-death team combos – you can react to your partner doing a strong attack with upthrow, thus ensuring you are invincible and don’t get hit by a knee by mistake. Also, this will bypass the grab-specific knockback reduction.

Is there any chance that you can regrab an opponent after they've been kneed out of your grab or something?

 

[Crawfish]

i was able to jump out of marth's short hop bair, but i cant anymore, when exactly do i have to press teh jump button to jump out of marths bair early? srry if i confuse.

 

[Tee ay eye]

you're probably just doing the bair too late

 

[Kadano]

Is there any chance that you can regrab an opponent after they've been kneed out of your grab or something?

Yes, at 0~20%, depending on the victim’s DI and falling speed.
It’s combos like these I was thinking about:

The second one connects until about 70% before knee hits.

Edit: Also, that ridiculous multiple SDI on the Falcon Punch was done by a debug mode stand CPU level 5. I didn’t know they were able to do this.

Edit2: Gotta love these psychedelic sign chains on FD. I wonder who put them in … if it was Sakurai, he really should have kept to incorporating tripping that way.

i was able to jump out of marth's short hop bair, but i cant anymore, when exactly do i have to press teh jump button to jump out of marths bair early? srry if i confuse.

http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-marth-hitboxes-and-frame-data.285324/

B-air

Total: 39
Hit: 7-11
IASA: 35
Auto cancel: 32>
Landlag: 24
Lcanceled: 12
[…]
SH air time: 38

⇒ It seems like you’d have a 5-frame window to do the mid-air jump before you touch the ground if you did the bair as soon as possible after your short hop.
However, inputting an aerial before the first airborne frame changes your jump arc because gravity is applied even on your first airborne frame this way (usually, Jump 0 is not affected by gravity). This causes the total airborne time to decrease to 36, shrinking the mid-air jump window to 3.
If you start bair after the first airborne frame, you have the normal 38 frames air time. The mid-air jump window here is 4 frames (two frames gained by jump arc extension, one lost due to bair delay).

 

[Crawfish]

thnx guys!