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Whether spacing yourself just outside of his ledgedash → usmash range still poses a threat depends mostly on your opponents techskill. A Fox with perfect ledgedash → dash → upsmash execution could bring an intangible hitbox out as far as this:questions to kadano:
1. is it feasible to react to fox's ledgedash shine and be able to do anything? i was thinking of spacing myself right around fox's ledgedash -> usmash range, so i'm close enough to be a threat, but far enough away so that i can escape if i need to, but i don't know if i have the means to escape. e.g. shield, wd back, dash away
I haven’t really looked into it yet, but it’s something I often thought about. Your suggestion should be enough to make me disregard my laziness, so expect some data on this within the next few days.2. do you know anything about how to DI against sheik and falcon? against these characters, sometimes i feel like they have pretty solid followups on every DI and that sometimes it's better to just DI weirdly to throw them off (e.g. partial DI, no DI, DI inwards, etc), but that's a little too janky for my liking, unless it's supported by numbers, in which case it ceases to be janky
Fthrow has a 50° knockback angle. (How do I know? Toomai created a godly hitbox repository .xlsx you can find here (slightly modified by me to include Strong Bad’s knockback calculator and 0% and 100% pre-calculated knockback values))3. similar to question #2, but i kinda wanted to know about how to DI against marth's fthrow. i've believed for a while that using down-away DI is the best option (trajectory is roughly up-away, so down-away seems like it'd be the best), but i've heard of people using downward DI to great success.
additionally, i know/think that straight-away DI isn't too fantastic against f-throw, but based on my approximations and understanding of DI, straight-away DI and downward DI should have the same effect on your f-throw trajectory:
i assumed that f-throw trajectory was 45 degrees, so...
DI down: sin^2(135) = 0.5, 0.5*18 = 9 degrees change
DI away: sin^2(45) = 0.5, 0.5*18 = 9 degrees change
DI down-away: sin^2(90) = 1, 1*18 = 18 degrees change
my 45-degree assumption might have been inaccurate, but i don't imagine that it was so far inaccurate that it would explain the results
Because I can’t read internal Melee code, I can only tell you what I know from messing around with Dolphin. So while my findings should be very close to the truth, these mechanics probably work slightly different than I assume them to here.4. what exactly are the mechanics behind marth's first-hit forward B when it comes to recovery?
Thanks for telling him, haha. My main drive for creating the Jigglypuff grab conversion section was so that Pewpewu would get the much-needed early kills against Hbox. In his set at NCR, he landed very many grabs, but got next to nothing out of them, which made me really sad. At the end of the first match, he got a grab at 75%. Had he known all his killing options, I’m sure he would have won that game.
A compliment I whole-heartedly return! I love watching you play Marth.You are a god
Yes, they can, depending on damage, weight, falling speed and hitbox ID. I won’t go into details because it would be an insane amount of work to test all the factors.I find some of my opponents DI'ing my dancing blade so that by the 3rd strong hit, they are behind me.
Can they still do this with the same DI if I did the 2nd hit an upvariant rather than the normal neutral hit?
I feel like they'd reach the ground by the time you get DB 3 out, especially since a lot of people automatically DI down and buffer shield as soon as they start getting hit by DB.I use it as an anti-approach out of DD, so they're usually already in the air when the first DB hits em.
Been procrastinating on this way too long. Considering that there are thousands of different ways spacies can recover with side-B, I will only explain those where only a few of Marth’s options work in detail and treat the others in a more general way.
It does, but at a very low rate. All DB1 hitboxes have 25 KBG, so total knockback increases from 60 at 0% before hit to 70 at 100% before hit.Does side-B knockback scale with percent?
Under the right circumstances, yes. The thing is, both DB1 and DB2 have four different hitboxes that all have different angles. Because Fox pops into your hitbox due to his ridiculous Illusion moving speed, you have hardly any control over the hitbox you get. Here are DB1 knockback angles:DB3 will connect if you hit DB2? Even if they DI in?
Yes, you can. I didn’t consider it because I remembered that when I tested these situation half a year ago, I found that dtilt wasn’t reliable. However, that was for Illusions that start slightly higher, so at the position 2., dtilt is the better option, yes.Can't you just dtilt once to cover full side-B, and then dtilt again if they shortened?
Pivot edgehogs are not just hard, they also require an additional type of precision. Because the total sliding distance after the first turn frame is less than the maximum distance any character can move with a dash in one frame, you need to react to the exact distance to the edge with certain analog stick inputs to do the pivot edgehog successfully in every situation.
By holding forward, you ensure that the character approximates his maximum dashing speed. Any other inputs will decrease the dashing speed. By selecting the right option for every frame, you can always (haven’t confirmed that for every character, but I’m pretty sure it is) edgehog.
For example, if Captain Falcon climbs the ledge (to ensure an exact reference position) and then dashes back towards the ledge, holding full towards for 4 frames and then holding full backwards will make Captain Falcon spend one frame in his Turn animation and then fall off the ledge, successfully triggering the pivot edgehog.
If he instead dashes towards the ledge and holds toward for only one frame, he will fall off the stage after frame 5 (instead of 4 if he keeps holding towards the edge). If he again turns after frame 4 of his dash, he will not reach the ledge before his sliding motion has ended.
Now it might seem like he could simply wait one frame longer until he turns, right? Unfortunately, at that point he is so close to the ledge that he will immediately fall after frame 5 – to actually turn around, spending at least one frame in the Turn animation is required.
If you wonder what happens if forward is held for 3 or 2 frames: for 3 frames, everything is the same as for 4 frames. If forward is held for only 2 frames, Captain Falcon will slide off the ledge after Turn 3.
Another example: Marth. Again, we go to the ledge and climb up to ensure an exact reference position. Then we have Marth dash towards the ledge again. Here are the timings and their results:
• If Marth holds towards the edge the entire time during his dash, he will fall off after frame 6. If he presses backwards after frame 6, he will still slide off. [No pivot edgehog]
• If Marth holds towards the edge during the first 5 frames of his dash, then keeps his analog stick in a neutral position for one frame and then smashes it backwards, he will still slide off before he can turn. [No pivot edgehog]
• If Marth holds towards the edge during the first 4 frames of his dash, then keeps his analog stick in a neutral position for 2 frames and then smashes it backwards, he will enter his Turn animation and slide off after Turn 1. [Successful pivot edgehog]
• If Marth holds towards the edge during the first 3 frames of his dash, then keeps his analog stick in a neutral position for 3 frames and then smashes it backwards, he will enter his Turn animation and slide off after Turn 4. [Successful pivot edgehog]
• If Marth holds towards the edge during the first 2 frames of his dash, then keeps his analog stick in a neutral position for 4 frames and then smashes it backwards, he will enter his Turn animation, but he won’t have enough momentum left to slide off the ledge. [No pivot edgehog]
If what you understand as “ledge height” is what I illustrated with the screenshot in my previous post’s section 1, then no. Apart from the 4 frame timing difference, Illusion and Phantasm are pretty much exactly the same.Can you double dtilt to catch shortens if they Phantasm at ledge height?
How high are you talking exactly?If you grab the ledge early, is it possible to react to a high Phantasm with a LH bair?
Yes and no, depending on your exact horizontal position and whether you shorten or not. I will assume you are only asking for Fox and Falco, as the ledge issue on YS only affects Marth’s Dolphin Slash and similar recoveries.Does every legal stage have the same ledge structure in terms of how far down you can sweetspot?
If what you understand as “ledge height” is what I illustrated with the screenshot in my previous post’s section 1, then no. Apart from the 4 frame timing difference, Illusion and Phantasm are pretty much exactly the same.
How high are you talking exactly?
Yes and no, depending on your exact horizontal position and whether you shorten or not. I will assume you are only asking for Fox and Falco, as the ledge issue on YS only affects Marth’s Dolphin Slash and similar recoveries.
I don’t understand why you are still asking me these questions after I’ve already clarified that dtilt will not hit sweetspot, ie ledge height side-Bs:[…]if they side-B at the ledge, shouldn't I just time my dtilt for a shorten because that would also hit a full-length side-B going into the wall?
The only exception is on Yoshi’s Story, I will go into that later.Dtilt will whiff by far:
“Any height that is actually possible to hit” – that would be a 1-frame reaction time, then:I didn't have any specific height in mind for the LH bair. I guess I'm just curious how fast you would have to react to be able to hit any height that is actually possible to hit. I'd be a lot less reluctant to grab the ledge before a spacie uses his DJ if I knew I could LH bair a DJ side-B on reaction.
Perfect sweetspots can’t be hit by Marth’s dtilt on any stage except YS. FoD should actually have a rather tight window for the side-B timing, as Marth can stand on the lower level part and still bring the dtilt out near the ledge.My question concerning different stages, I was mostly wondering about the vertical limits to grabbing the ledge. Assuming you are sweetspotting horizontally, is it easier to go under Marth's dtilt on one stage than it is on another? I have always felt like I could sweetspot really low on FoD, but maybe that has to do with the graphic of the stage and the physical floor is in the same relation to the "edge" as all of the other stages.
Sorry to ask if you already made sure about this, but for Battlefield are you sure that Fox can sweetspot the ledge with side-B? I feel that if he goes low enough to not get hit by d-tilt that he'd actually go under the stage (if he didn't also horizontally sweetspot it). Maybe it's just a psychological thing that Foxes are scared that they will go under the stage, so they aim a little higher on the side-B sweetspots?Perfect sweetspots can’t be hit by Marth’s dtilt on any stage except YS. FoD should actually have a rather tight window for the side-B timing, as Marth can stand on the lower level part and still bring the dtilt out near the ledge.
All stages are the same in terms of dtilt reach vs. side-B ledgegrab window, except FoD and YS:
Yes, I am sure and also covered this just 3 posts before yours: http://smashboards.com/threads/kadano’s-perfect-marth-class—advanced-frame-data-application.337035/page-6#post-16035011Sorry to ask if you already made sure about this, but for Battlefield are you sure that Fox can sweetspot the ledge with side-B?
I don’t understand why you are still asking me these questions after I’ve already clarified that dtilt will not hit sweetspot, ie ledge height side-Bs:
The only exception is on Yoshi’s Story, I will go into that later.
“Any height that is actually possible to hit” – that would be a 1-frame reaction time, then:
For lower heights that an immediate ledgehop bair covers, it’s approximately 11 frames (if they are close to stage, you have 1-2 frames less because they burst through your bair zone earlier).
Realistic example with 10 frames reaction time:
However, Marth’s fastest edgehog from his standard edgeguarding position (pivot edgehog) takes 20 frames (turn → wavedash is 1 frame slower). Every opponent can easily react to that with an immediate side-B / jump → side-B and destroy your opportunity to react. Thus, I don’t think the edgehog is appropriate here as long as they either have their jump or can still side-B onto the stage.
Perfect sweetspots can’t be hit by Marth’s dtilt on any stage except YS. FoD should actually have a rather tight window for the side-B timing, as Marth can stand on the lower level part and still bring the dtilt out near the ledge.
All stages are the same in terms of dtilt reach vs. side-B ledgegrab window, except FoD and YS:
Not for all horizontal Illusion starting points, except for YS.So assuming they are side-Bing into the ledge high enough for you to dtilt them, I'm wondering if I can use a single dtilt timing by assuming they will shorten and also still hit them if they don't shorten. (It sounds like this will be answered when you get to the specifics of YS dtilting anyway.)
Depends on platform height. For low platforms like the side platforms on YS, full jump → waveland is faster (10 vs. 12 airborne frames). For slightly higher platforms (DL64 side platforms, for example), both take 15 airborne frames.Question 1: If Marth is underneath or near a platform, what is the fastest way to waveland onto it? Is full hop>immediate DJ>waveland fast than full hop>waveland?
Interesting question! On YS’s side platforms, doing the waveland as close to the platform edge as possible makes the entire motion one frame faster than a shffl fair. In my opinion not worth the effort, as your positioning needs to be very spot on, and it’s less favorable on other stages, except FoD like you mentioned. On DL64’s side platforms, it’s 32 frames. On other side platforms, it scales with platform height.Question 2: When underneath/near a platform, is jumping up, wavelanding off the platform, and then immediately fast fall-fairing faster than a regular SHFFL'd fair? What are the speed differences of this tactic across different platform heights on tourney legal stages (excluding FoD)?
If you time and space them so that they cover a full length Illusion, Fox can shorten on reaction and escape all of these.Kadano, what about using ftilt, fair, (or nair?) to catch fox out of his side-b when he does it higher than dtilt height? (Or does this require inhuman reaction time?)
Thanks a bunch Kadano! Just out of curiosity, how many frames would the fox need to shorten on reaction to ftilt? Because if for example it's something like 10 frames, I think looking at http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php that 90-95% of people wouldn't be able to react quick enough, which would be a margin of error I'd be willing to accept.If you time and space them so that they cover a full length Illusion, Fox can shorten on reaction and escape all of these.