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Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

Discussion in 'Marth' started by Kadano, Jun 7, 2013.

  1. Decipio-Carmen

    Decipio-Carmen
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    Smash Apprentice

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    Apr 2, 2010
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    Are the Marth u-throw u-tilt percents on Sheik (linked in the OP) done with Marth as P1 and Sheik P2? If so, does that mean if Marth is P4 Sheik can't escape at 13% and 21%?
     
  2. Anagarm

    Anagarm
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    Smash Rookie

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    Dec 5, 2012
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    1
    I am sorry if this has been answered before but I cant seem to find an answer anywhere.

    Here is Marth's Nair frame data:

    Total: 49
    Hit: 6-7, 15-21
    Auto cancel: <5 25>
    Landlag: 15
    Lcanceled: 7

    Here is Marth's short hop frame data:

    SH air time: 38
    Earliest FF: 20
    SH FF air time: 26

    From this you can see that if Marth short hops but begins is nair on the first airborne frame, he can fast fall on the first possible frame and still be able to auto cancel the nair because he will have been airborne for 26 frames, which is the minimum number of frames needed to reach the autocancel window.

    My question is, how is this possible considering instant gravity? Wouldn't performing the nair on the first available frame after jumping cause Marth to not short hop as high and thus not be able to reach the necessary 26 frames needed to autocancel the aerial? Is it even possible to perform a true sh rising autocancel nair?
     
  3. ridemyboat

    ridemyboat
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    Smash Apprentice

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    Aug 13, 2015
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    He's in the air less one frame less if he starts his nair immediately, but the auto cancel is 25 or more inclusive.

    Edit: The first number is also inclusive. 5 or less autocancels.

    These are also easy things to check in 20XX 4.06. You can turn on an autocancel overlay.

    And yes, it's a two frame window for starting the nair if you fastfall on the earliest frame, and extremely possible to do a rising autocancel nair.
     
    #1763 ridemyboat, May 24, 2017
    Last edited: May 24, 2017
  4. Kaoak

    Kaoak
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    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2014
    Messages:
    55
    How do you edgeguard Falco's double jump sweetspot to the ledge, say after a forward/down throw or a dtilt? This question also applies to Fox. Oftentimes I can hard read the dj sweetspot but still can't punish it. If I grab ledge, they often will up b right next to the ledge and will grab it as soon as I let go (or in Fox's case he will burn me), dtilt, jab, fsmash etc all whiff. I've had some minor success with wavedash back off of the ledge -> fair (without grabbing ledge), but that is VERY dangerous against anything other than exactly double jump sweetspot. I wonder if I have time to dair their double jump. What is your suggestion?
     
    #1764 Kaoak, Jun 1, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2017
  5. ridemyboat

    ridemyboat
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    I'm aware that the input poller for melee has some slight drift to it. I wondered if the time interval between polls is constant, though. What does the distribution for the interval between polls look like?
     
  6. Dr3amSm4sher

    Dr3amSm4sher
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    Smash Cadet

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    May 26, 2015
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    So some great person out there made a beautiful blog post about the entire marth chaingrab with % ranges and followups for all %s till about 95 or so for both fox and falco. Does anyone have the link? I've been searching for 2 weeks
     
  7. ridemyboat

    ridemyboat
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    Smash Apprentice

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    There isn't a complete one, but the best I've seen is here: http://marthnerd.blogspot.com/2017/03/marths-uthrow-combos-on-fox-and-falco.html

    @Kadano , how much truth do you think there is to the FUD around arduino controllers? FUD I've seen:

    1. Macros
    2. Massive buff to fox / falco recovery
    3. Waveshining and Waveshine infinites on Marth become trivial

    Curious about 3, because I've heard people say that but I don't think it becomes easy. Does it become easy? There are some other things you can do, like remap certain values of the analog stick to be in completely different areas for easy SDI (technically not a macro, does the remapping have to be to x,y coordinates that aren't next to one another?), or remap areas that are interpreted as a straight vertical or straight horizontal to slight di's.

    At the moment, I'm leaning towards banning Arduinos and box controllers for these reasons:

    1. Extremely hard to enforce. Requires data collection at the console level and statistical analysis to determine cheats
    2. Macros are actually a big deal. People are posting obvious stuff like FC nair, but you can do other things too like certain unreactable shine option selects (Did you hit the shine? Great, wavedash forward. No? Wavedash back).
    3. The main argument hax had for allowing them was that "you're cheating in the wrong game" because there isn't money in it. But it overlooks trolls.
     
    #1767 ridemyboat, Jun 17, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
    Dr3amSm4sher likes this.
  8. Dr3amSm4sher

    Dr3amSm4sher
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    Smash Cadet

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    May 26, 2015
    Messages:
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    Thank you so much for the link. I've been looking for like 2 months lol. I can give my own take on the arduino situation though. (I have an arduino controller)
    1. Macros are stupid and should be banned. This is a given.
    2. Massive is a strong word. It just feels like melee deadzones finally make sense. It's like everyone has a hybrid notch.
    3. You still have to know how to waveshine marth. It's not like a bad person can pick these up and start waveshining marth. You already had to be good at waveshining.

    Even though I say all this I only want the arduino around just for a bit. These issues have been known for at least 2 years and are only in the public eye because of the arduino. Like the long term goal is to get a melee update with all of these controller fixes and no offense but the melee community are not people of action. 85% of the community has no idea what any of these things meant before hax's video and now we are finally looking at real issues. The arduino is just forcing the hand of TO's and modders everywhere to finally make a decision. I think by EVO everything should clear up. No arduino. Melee update with dashback, shield drop, snapback, and angle mods. B0XX legal.
     

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