Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

Decipio-Carmen

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Are the Marth u-throw u-tilt percents on Sheik (linked in the OP) done with Marth as P1 and Sheik P2? If so, does that mean if Marth is P4 Sheik can't escape at 13% and 21%?
 

Anagarm

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I am sorry if this has been answered before but I cant seem to find an answer anywhere.

Here is Marth's Nair frame data:

Total: 49
Hit: 6-7, 15-21
Auto cancel: <5 25>
Landlag: 15
Lcanceled: 7

Here is Marth's short hop frame data:

SH air time: 38
Earliest FF: 20
SH FF air time: 26

From this you can see that if Marth short hops but begins is nair on the first airborne frame, he can fast fall on the first possible frame and still be able to auto cancel the nair because he will have been airborne for 26 frames, which is the minimum number of frames needed to reach the autocancel window.

My question is, how is this possible considering instant gravity? Wouldn't performing the nair on the first available frame after jumping cause Marth to not short hop as high and thus not be able to reach the necessary 26 frames needed to autocancel the aerial? Is it even possible to perform a true sh rising autocancel nair?
 

ridemyboat

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I am sorry if this has been answered before but I cant seem to find an answer anywhere.

Here is Marth's Nair frame data:

Total: 49
Hit: 6-7, 15-21
Auto cancel: <5 25>
Landlag: 15
Lcanceled: 7

Here is Marth's short hop frame data:

SH air time: 38
Earliest FF: 20
SH FF air time: 26

From this you can see that if Marth short hops but begins is nair on the first airborne frame, he can fast fall on the first possible frame and still be able to auto cancel the nair because he will have been airborne for 26 frames, which is the minimum number of frames needed to reach the autocancel window.

My question is, how is this possible considering instant gravity? Wouldn't performing the nair on the first available frame after jumping cause Marth to not short hop as high and thus not be able to reach the necessary 26 frames needed to autocancel the aerial? Is it even possible to perform a true sh rising autocancel nair?
He's in the air less one frame less if he starts his nair immediately, but the auto cancel is 25 or more inclusive.

Edit: The first number is also inclusive. 5 or less autocancels.

These are also easy things to check in 20XX 4.06. You can turn on an autocancel overlay.

And yes, it's a two frame window for starting the nair if you fastfall on the earliest frame, and extremely possible to do a rising autocancel nair.
 
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Kaoak

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How do you edgeguard Falco's double jump sweetspot to the ledge, say after a forward/down throw or a dtilt? This question also applies to Fox. Oftentimes I can hard read the dj sweetspot but still can't punish it. If I grab ledge, they often will up b right next to the ledge and will grab it as soon as I let go (or in Fox's case he will burn me), dtilt, jab, fsmash etc all whiff. I've had some minor success with wavedash back off of the ledge -> fair (without grabbing ledge), but that is VERY dangerous against anything other than exactly double jump sweetspot. I wonder if I have time to dair their double jump. What is your suggestion?
 
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ridemyboat

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I'm aware that the input poller for melee has some slight drift to it. I wondered if the time interval between polls is constant, though. What does the distribution for the interval between polls look like?
 
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So some great person out there made a beautiful blog post about the entire marth chaingrab with % ranges and followups for all %s till about 95 or so for both fox and falco. Does anyone have the link? I've been searching for 2 weeks
 

ridemyboat

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There isn't a complete one, but the best I've seen is here: http://marthnerd.blogspot.com/2017/03/marths-uthrow-combos-on-fox-and-falco.html

Kadano Kadano , how much truth do you think there is to the FUD around arduino controllers? FUD I've seen:

1. Macros
2. Massive buff to fox / falco recovery
3. Waveshining and Waveshine infinites on Marth become trivial

Curious about 3, because I've heard people say that but I don't think it becomes easy. Does it become easy? There are some other things you can do, like remap certain values of the analog stick to be in completely different areas for easy SDI (technically not a macro, does the remapping have to be to x,y coordinates that aren't next to one another?), or remap areas that are interpreted as a straight vertical or straight horizontal to slight di's.

At the moment, I'm leaning towards banning Arduinos and box controllers for these reasons:

1. Extremely hard to enforce. Requires data collection at the console level and statistical analysis to determine cheats
2. Macros are actually a big deal. People are posting obvious stuff like FC nair, but you can do other things too like certain unreactable shine option selects (Did you hit the shine? Great, wavedash forward. No? Wavedash back).
3. The main argument hax had for allowing them was that "you're cheating in the wrong game" because there isn't money in it. But it overlooks trolls.
 
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Joined
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There isn't a complete one, but the best I've seen is here: http://marthnerd.blogspot.com/2017/03/marths-uthrow-combos-on-fox-and-falco.html

Kadano Kadano , how much truth do you think there is to the FUD around arduino controllers? FUD I've seen:

1. Macros
2. Massive buff to fox / falco recovery
3. Waveshining and Waveshine infinites on Marth become trivial

Curious about 3, because I've heard people say that but I don't think it becomes easy. Does it become easy? There are some other things you can do, like remap certain values of the analog stick to be in completely different areas for easy SDI (technically not a macro, does the remapping have to be to x,y coordinates that aren't next to one another?), or remap areas that are interpreted as a straight vertical or straight horizontal to slight di's.

At the moment, I'm leaning towards banning Arduinos and box controllers for these reasons:

1. Extremely hard to enforce. Requires data collection at the console level and statistical analysis to determine cheats
2. Macros are actually a big deal. People are posting obvious stuff like FC nair, but you can do other things too like certain unreactable shine option selects (Did you hit the shine? Great, wavedash forward. No? Wavedash back).
3. The main argument hax had for allowing them was that "you're cheating in the wrong game" because there isn't money in it. But it overlooks trolls.
Thank you so much for the link. I've been looking for like 2 months lol. I can give my own take on the arduino situation though. (I have an arduino controller)
1. Macros are stupid and should be banned. This is a given.
2. Massive is a strong word. It just feels like melee deadzones finally make sense. It's like everyone has a hybrid notch.
3. You still have to know how to waveshine marth. It's not like a bad person can pick these up and start waveshining marth. You already had to be good at waveshining.

Even though I say all this I only want the arduino around just for a bit. These issues have been known for at least 2 years and are only in the public eye because of the arduino. Like the long term goal is to get a melee update with all of these controller fixes and no offense but the melee community are not people of action. 85% of the community has no idea what any of these things meant before hax's video and now we are finally looking at real issues. The arduino is just forcing the hand of TO's and modders everywhere to finally make a decision. I think by EVO everything should clear up. No arduino. Melee update with dashback, shield drop, snapback, and angle mods. B0XX legal.
 

delaysb

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Kadano Kadano or anyone else that has any information on this, I was reading way back near the beginning of this thread and saw mentioned that there was a marth ditto throw followup chart that was lost because of a browser crash before posting. Was this ever posted anywhere? Or if anyone has applicable information about guaranteed followups in the marth ditto off of uthrow that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks :)
 

Tuurkey

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Any detailed database out there that has all the DI and percents marth can uthrow pivot fsmash spacies? If there isn't i'd lab it out, but I want to make sure there isn't one already out there before I waste my time finding the same info.
 

delaysb

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Alright so for Marth dittos I went through No DI, DI behind(inward), and DI away on 20XX going frame by frame and if both players are frame perfect the u-tilt is never guaranteed. It can be jumped out of at all DI and at all percents. The frame window for the jump out is very small however, typically 2-3 frames so it may still be worth going for if they cant hit that small window to jump out. Once you get into 20% and higher if Marth u-tilts on the first possible frame the u-tilt will actually miss completely. You can however delay the u-tilt so they will be closer to the ground when you put out the hitbox and most people aren't frame perfect anyways so it normally will be a frame late or so but doing so gives the opponent extra frames to jump out. I'm going through uthrow uair/fair/bair followups from 13-63% and ill post on that once I complete all the testing.

edit: oops.. meant to post this in the ask pp thread, not here sorry, trying to delete it not sure if I can
 
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delaysb

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Kadano Kadano I just went through some testing on my own for marth uthrow followups and gathered the following information. I was wondering if this looked about right to you. Please let me know :) thanks


On Neutral/No DI
13% - person being thrown has a 1 frame window to jump out of shuair
16% - person being thrown has a 2 frame window to jump out of shuair
19% - person being thrown has a 1 frame window to jump out of shuair
21% - person being thrown has a 2 frame window to jump out of shuair
24% - person being thrown has a 1 frame window to jump out of shuair
27% - person being thrown has a 0? maybe 1 frame window to jump out of shuair (pretty sure this one is guaranteed)
30% - person being thrown has a 1 frame window to jump out of shuair
35% - person being thrown has a 1 frame window to jump out of shuair
PAST THIS POINT SHUAIR NO LONGER HITS BECAUSE THEY ARE SENT TOO HIGH - Use FullHop Uair instead
40% - fhuair guaranteed
45% - fhuair guaranteed
50% - fhuair guaranteed
55% - fhuair guaranteed
60% - fhuair guaranteed
65% - fhuair guaranteed
70% - person being thrown has a 1 frame window to jump out of fhuair
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Away DI
13% - fhrising fair guaranteed, shuair person has 2 frame window to jump out
16% - fhrising fair guaranteed, shuair person has 2 frame window to jump out
19% - fhrising fair guaranteed, shuair person has 2 frame window to jump out
21% - fhrising fair guaranteed, shuair person has 2-3 frame window to jump out
24% - fhrising fair guaranteed, shuair person has 2-3 frame window to jump out
27% - fhrising fair guaranteed, dshuair(need to start dashing for a frame or 2 before the sh from this point onward, I will write as dshuair) person has 1-2 frame window to jump out
30% - fhrisingfair guaranteed, dshuair person has 1-2 frame window to jump out
35% - fhrisingfair guaranteed, dshuair person has 1-2 frame window to jump out
PAST THIS POINT SHUAIR NO LONGER HITS BECAUSE THEY ARE SENT TOO HIGH - Use FullHop Uair instead(d in front of fhuair for dashing before jump)
40% - fhrising fair guaranteed, dfhuair person has 1-2 frame window to jump out
45% - fhrising fair guaranteed, dfhuair guaranteed
50% - fhrising fair guaranteed(barely hits if frame perfect), dfhuair guaranteed
55% - fhrising fair doesnt work anymore, dfhuair guaranteed
60% - dfhuair guaranteed
65% - dfhuair guaranteed
70% dfhuair person has 1 frame window to jump out
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Behind/Inward DI
13% - backwards shuair(bshuair) person has a 2 frame window to jump out, fhbair person has 1 frame window to jump out
16% - bshuair person has 2 frame window to jump out, fhbair person has 1 frame window to jump out
19% - bshuair person has 2 frame window to jump out, fhbair person has 2 frame window to jump out
21% - bshuair person has 2 frame window to jump out, fhbair person has 2 frame window to jump out
24% - bshuair person has 2 frame window to jump out, fhbair person has 2 frame window to jump out
27% - bshuair person has 1 frame window to jump out, fhbair person has 1 frame window to jump out
30% - bshuair person has 2 frame window to jump out, fhbair person has 2 frame window to jump out
35% - bshuair person has 1 frame window to jump out, fhbair person has 2 frame window to jump out
40% - bshuair person has 1 frame window to jump out, fhbair guaranteed
45% - bfhuair guaranteed, fhbair guaranteed
50% - dashback fullhop uair(dbfhuair) guaranteed, fhbair guaranteed
55% - dbfhuair guaranteed, fhbair guaranteed
60% - fhbair guaranteed, turnaround dash fhfair guaranteed, fhuair not guaranteed anymore(they drift too far) you can still dash a few frames longer but they will have a small window to jump out
65% - couldnt find anything guaranteed, potential for small frame windows on several followups(uair,fair,bair)
 

Bones0

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Kadano Kadano I just went through some testing on my own for marth uthrow followups and gathered the following information. I was wondering if this looked about right to you. Please let me know :) thanks


On Neutral/No DI
13% - person being thrown has a 1 frame window to jump out of shuair
16% - person being thrown has a 2 frame window to jump out of shuair
19% - person being thrown has a 1 frame window to jump out of shuair
21% - person being thrown has a 2 frame window to jump out of shuair
24% - person being thrown has a 1 frame window to jump out of shuair
27% - person being thrown has a 0? maybe 1 frame window to jump out of shuair (pretty sure this one is guaranteed)
30% - person being thrown has a 1 frame window to jump out of shuair
35% - person being thrown has a 1 frame window to jump out of shuair
PAST THIS POINT SHUAIR NO LONGER HITS BECAUSE THEY ARE SENT TOO HIGH - Use FullHop Uair instead
40% - fhuair guaranteed
45% - fhuair guaranteed
50% - fhuair guaranteed
55% - fhuair guaranteed
60% - fhuair guaranteed
65% - fhuair guaranteed
70% - person being thrown has a 1 frame window to jump out of fhuair
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Away DI
13% - fhrising fair guaranteed, shuair person has 2 frame window to jump out
16% - fhrising fair guaranteed, shuair person has 2 frame window to jump out
19% - fhrising fair guaranteed, shuair person has 2 frame window to jump out
21% - fhrising fair guaranteed, shuair person has 2-3 frame window to jump out
24% - fhrising fair guaranteed, shuair person has 2-3 frame window to jump out
27% - fhrising fair guaranteed, dshuair(need to start dashing for a frame or 2 before the sh from this point onward, I will write as dshuair) person has 1-2 frame window to jump out
30% - fhrisingfair guaranteed, dshuair person has 1-2 frame window to jump out
35% - fhrisingfair guaranteed, dshuair person has 1-2 frame window to jump out
PAST THIS POINT SHUAIR NO LONGER HITS BECAUSE THEY ARE SENT TOO HIGH - Use FullHop Uair instead(d in front of fhuair for dashing before jump)
40% - fhrising fair guaranteed, dfhuair person has 1-2 frame window to jump out
45% - fhrising fair guaranteed, dfhuair guaranteed
50% - fhrising fair guaranteed(barely hits if frame perfect), dfhuair guaranteed
55% - fhrising fair doesnt work anymore, dfhuair guaranteed
60% - dfhuair guaranteed
65% - dfhuair guaranteed
70% dfhuair person has 1 frame window to jump out
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Behind/Inward DI
13% - backwards shuair(bshuair) person has a 2 frame window to jump out, fhbair person has 1 frame window to jump out
16% - bshuair person has 2 frame window to jump out, fhbair person has 1 frame window to jump out
19% - bshuair person has 2 frame window to jump out, fhbair person has 2 frame window to jump out
21% - bshuair person has 2 frame window to jump out, fhbair person has 2 frame window to jump out
24% - bshuair person has 2 frame window to jump out, fhbair person has 2 frame window to jump out
27% - bshuair person has 1 frame window to jump out, fhbair person has 1 frame window to jump out
30% - bshuair person has 2 frame window to jump out, fhbair person has 2 frame window to jump out
35% - bshuair person has 1 frame window to jump out, fhbair person has 2 frame window to jump out
40% - bshuair person has 1 frame window to jump out, fhbair guaranteed
45% - bfhuair guaranteed, fhbair guaranteed
50% - dashback fullhop uair(dbfhuair) guaranteed, fhbair guaranteed
55% - dbfhuair guaranteed, fhbair guaranteed
60% - fhbair guaranteed, turnaround dash fhfair guaranteed, fhuair not guaranteed anymore(they drift too far) you can still dash a few frames longer but they will have a small window to jump out
65% - couldnt find anything guaranteed, potential for small frame windows on several followups(uair,fair,bair)
What ports did you use, and did you account for staling?
 

delaysb

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What ports did you use, and did you account for staling?
I used port 1 for throwing and port 2 for being thrown. Everything written is under the assumption that both players are frame perfect. I dont know what staling is or maybe I do but am not familiar with the term.. could you explain it to me or link an explanation? It would be much appreciated as im still testing more stuff :)

Edit: I looked up staling and I'm not sure if it had any impact on my testing, I was using 20XX and save states I'm going to go back and double check everything while taking that into account
 
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Kyomaku

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Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but I figured you might know the answer to my question, so I decided to post it here anyways.

To the point, I was wondering why attacks sometimes don't release people from grabs. I play doubles with a Peach (Marth+Peach) and it happens quite frequently, but not consistently, that his attacks aren't freeing the opponent that I'm holding, but I couldn't find an answer to it online, yet. I doubt that it's random, would love to know what causes it, so we can consistently use it.
 

Sycorax

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Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but I figured you might know the answer to my question, so I decided to post it here anyways.

To the point, I was wondering why attacks sometimes don't release people from grabs. I play doubles with a Peach (Marth+Peach) and it happens quite frequently, but not consistently, that his attacks aren't freeing the opponent that I'm holding, but I couldn't find an answer to it online, yet. I doubt that it's random, would love to know what causes it, so we can consistently use it.
Attacks that do less than 12% (I.e. 6% after grabbed damage reduction) don't break the victim out of the grab.
 
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gcboy

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Some quick things for anyone that can help me. Been testing things out but these situations are uncommon and I don't see them mentioned often...

1. Quick Marth question, is spotdoge>grab better with Z asap or holding R after spotdoge, then pressing A? Shield pops up for a split second and I don't know if that affects things

2. for Marth dtilt or Fox shine does holding down the whole time after Spotdodge let you skip frames (IASA?) or it doesn't matter?

3. Am I imagining that AC fair > drop through platform fair is slower than L cancelled fair > shield drop fair?

4. Are there other ways to a fair while falling through a side platform than WD back off top platofrm, fastfall and hold down, fair as you pass through the side platform?

5. Is it possible to do invincible Ledgedash uptilt/turnaround up tilt or are roll, jab, grab, upB the only ones (saw on a YouTube video). Are there any invincible NIL off the ledge/ledgedash in place options?

Thanks everyone! I really appreciate it. If you could teach me how to calculate these things for my future reference so I don't have to bug you that'd be fine too!
 
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Bones0

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Some quick things for anyone that can help me. Been testing things out but these situations are uncommon and I don't see them mentioned often...

1. Quick Marth question, is spotdoge>grab better with Z asap or holding R after spotdoge, then pressing A? Shield pops up for a split second and I don't know if that affects things

2. for Marth dtilt or Fox shine does holding down the whole time after Spotdodge let you skip frames (IASA?) or it doesn't matter?

3. Am I imagining that AC fair > drop through platform fair is slower than L cancelled fair > shield drop fair?

4. Are there other ways to a fair while falling through a side platform than WD back off top platofrm, fastfall and hold down, fair as you pass through the side platform?

5. Is it possible to do invincible Ledgedash uptilt/turnaround up tilt or are roll, jab, grab, upB the only ones (saw on a YouTube video). Are there any invincible NIL off the ledge/ledgedash in place options?

Thanks everyone! I really appreciate it. If you could teach me how to calculate these things for my future reference so I don't have to bug you that'd be fine too!
1. Holding L/R and pressing A can be done without shielding if you time it perfectly, so it's the same speed as Z. It's generally better not to use Z for grabs in those scenarios because if you are a frame early, you get a lightshield that you can't shield grab out of, whereas if you use L/R+A and are too early, you can just press A again.

2. Spotdodge doesn't have IASA frames, but keeping the stick held down can allow you to dtilt on the first actionable frame after a spotdodge without accidentally dsmashing or having to tilt the stick.

3. You can test this in debug mode's frame advance.

4. Huh?

5. Utilt and dtilt the same speed as grab (frame 7), so they are definitely possible, but idk enough of the details on Marth's ledgedashes to say if he has a frame to spare for a turnaround or what other options he has.
 

Sycorax

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4. Are there other ways to a fair while falling through a side platform than WD back off top platofrm, fastfall and hold down, fair as you pass through the side platform?
You can only pass through a platform while in Fall or SpecialFall (and maybe some other obscure animations). In other words, not during aerial animations. You have to start the aerial after you pass through the platform.
 

gcboy

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Thanks for this!

Out of curiosity is there anyone with a TAS execution of chain grabs or any of the other punish trees listed in the OP? For example I thought I was doing the chaingrab correctly but I played a player much better than me and I was getting shined in between my follow ups despite pivoting. Just wanna watch the ideal rhythm
 

Stryker

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There a vid where Ken says he would do a weak fair as low the the ground as possible and as close to the opponent as possible and be able to dash through his opponent before they can shield grab.

Does the frama advantage for weak fair actually support this or was he just getting away with it because people were less aware back in the day?
 

Bones0

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There a vid where Ken says he would do a weak fair as low the the ground as possible and as close to the opponent as possible and be able to dash through his opponent before they can shield grab.

Does the frama advantage for weak fair actually support this or was he just getting away with it because people were less aware back in the day?
No, it works. You can test it pretty easily on a 20xx CPU.
 

YNZ

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Hey guys! I just watched Kadano's vid on hitboxes, priority & etc but I still don't understand why marth can fsmash or even jab fox and falco's up B without clanging. (Marth's fsmash clangs with ganon's fsmash in that vid so why won't it clang with fox&falco's up B?) According to the true priority thing Kadano mentioned in his vid, shouldn't the hitboxes clang (20% fsmash vs 16% up B or even the 4% jab vs 16% up b)? I think I'm just stupid or amybe I watched the vid too fast but thank you in advance to anyone who responds!

*This is definitely a dumb question that isnt really that important but its really been bugging me as someone who's trying to understand the mechanics of the game! :(*
 
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Bones0

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Hey guys! I just watched Kadano's vid on hitboxes, priority & etc but I still don't understand why marth can fsmash or even jab fox and falco's up B without clanging. (Marth's fsmash clangs with ganon's fsmash in that vid so why won't it clang with fox&falco's up B?) According to the true priority thing Kadano mentioned in his vid, shouldn't the hitboxes clang (20% fsmash vs 16% up B or even the 4% jab vs 16% up b)? I think I'm just stupid or amybe I watched the vid too fast but thank you in advance to anyone who responds!

*This is definitely a dumb question that isnt really that important but its really been bugging me as someone who's trying to understand the mechanics of the game! :(*
As a general rule of thumb, only ground vs. ground moves can clank. Marth's fsmash will clank with Fox's up-B if it's done across the ground, but once Fox is airborne, the fsmash will go right through him. I know there are exceptions to this like the poof on Sheik's up-B or Fox's and Falco's side-Bs, but I think the reason behind that is because those hitboxes are considered projectiles. You won't see ground moves clank with normal aerials at the very least.
 
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