Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

[Kadano]

Quick question on the matter of shield dropping. Is it possible (while adhering to the Axe method) to go from the West gate to the SW gate too quickly? Now i'm talking a fraction of a frame in speed and this is in regards to Jeff/Axe himself being the one doing it since I can rarely replicate the problem he occasionally has while playing due to how quick he is. I previously thought that this wouldn't be the case as I myself and I assume most others somewhat hug the side wall of enough that the shield drop will happen when landing on one of the 3 proper angles of -0.66250, -0.67500, & -0.68750.

Also I myself am often able to shield drop even without landing on one of those marks as with a controller that can perform it properl, even if it lands a -0.7000, it still drops through due to it passing through the previous values for enough time (Still fractions of frames, though I do not have the equipment nor the software to be able to break this down so as to properly understand why this occurs) So I was wondering if there is a conventional explanation for this, or if it is just because of what I previously though in that it passes through the proper values for long enough to allow it to still work. This in effect helps answer the first question as well.

I believe the problem here might simply be that @AXE 09 has his thumb at a lower / more outwards point of contact on the stick knob. If you use outer inputs and press strongly, you get values 1-2 increments below what you get when using inner inputs.

Here is a gfycat comparison of outer vs. inner inputs: (order: outer left, outer right, inner left, inner right)

These are the very extremes of the possible points of contact. So if he spot dodges too often, he should use a slightly more inwards point of contact so that he doesn't trigger -0.7 values.

 

[vexoskeleton]

What's the frame advantage double fair has on shield?

 

[ridemyboat]

What's the frame advantage double fair has on shield?

It's going to depend on what hitbox you hit the shield with, and how high up in the air you are. The first fair is rising, and they get a lot of time. Just look at the IASA frames if you're curious about the number. Then the second fair is 0 if you do it as late as possible and tipper.

 

[Syaith]

Herro friends.

I was wondering if anyone knows some intracacies on powershielding as marth vs falco. Can dashing backwards as opposed to dashing forwards increase the frame window during which marth can ps falco laser (Leffen seems to have an easier time PS-ing falco laser whenever he is dashing back
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g54ob1DgSeo&feature=youtu.be&t=1m35s)

I understand dashing makes marth's hurtbox lower and increases the frame window during which he can PS falco laser for lasers at certain heights, but was wondering if dash back makes PS easier than dash forward for certain laser heights.

 

[heyitshoward]

Herro friends.

I was wondering if anyone knows some intracacies on powershielding as marth vs falco. Can dashing backwards as opposed to dashing forwards increase the frame window during which marth can ps falco laser (Leffen seems to have an easier time PS-ing falco laser whenever he is dashing back
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g54ob1DgSeo&feature=youtu.be&t=1m35s)

I understand dashing makes marth's hurtbox lower and increases the frame window during which he can PS falco laser for lasers at certain heights, but was wondering if dash back makes PS easier than dash forward for certain laser heights.

Yes. It's all about how Marth's hurtboxes look when he's doing stuff (as you've observed).
https://smashboards.com/threads/kad...dvanced-frame-data-application.337035/page-22

 

[Syaith]

Hello again friends, I searched this thread and didn't find anything so sorry in advance if this has been answered already... but was curious about the frame window marth has to wavedash out-of-shield to grab peach after she downsmashes if he shield DIs it away.

 

[gcboy]

Hi guys! I'm sure you're busy with other things but here's some stuff I've been mapping out myself but I'm wondering if anyone has anything about it (probably done much better hahaha)

1) Utilt/Fsmash platform techchases

While there is already information on Uair as a techchase I find that sometimes it is difficult to time the jump and your feet are planted on the floor. During these times I like to WD or walk to certain areas of the platform and tech chase with Utilt/Fsmash.

What I did was, on Battlefield for example, I divided the platform into end, middle, outer corner of octagon, junction of octagon and platform, and picked just a few positions for the enemy like max roll to edge, middle of platform, junction of octagon, and mapped where Fsmash would sweetspot vs where I should just stick to Utilt (which I realized reaches further forward on platform than the fsmash)

2) Marth chaingrabs

Obviously DI down and back (I forget the exact angle so I just go SE) against forward throw but it's helped me build muscle memory to map out what to do in case they DI in for example. From 0 percent you can get F throws to a little over 20 and it's a free Fsmash if they D out or Jump put right there. Then I mapped out fthrow to up throw on the proper DI as far as I could. It's tough though so the furthest I'm able to get is that on back and down DI early percent you can fthrow to uthrow to two fairs but then back off because they can throw out a counter fair right there. Just wondering if anyone has a map of these Marth ditto strings.


Thanks for the help everyone!

 

[Tee ay eye]

Is it possible to reliably up B vs the lightshield edgehog/Marth killer? I remember reading back in 2007 that it's not always possible, but I've never seen any real analysis on it.

 

[Dr3amSm4sher]

Is there a counter to jabs vs shield? I'm specifically talking about any character vs sheik. I find that her aerial into jab into tilt/grab pseudo pressure vs shield is sometimes "unbeatable" for lack of a better word. Is there a way to punish with any character? (willing to do shine OoS every time if necessary.)

 

[heyitshoward]

i'm pretty sure you can cc grab anyone who jabs your shield

 

[gcboy]

Is it possible to reliably up B vs the lightshield edgehog/Marth killer? I remember reading back in 2007 that it's not always possible, but I've never seen any real analysis on it.

Can be dodged with a perfect sweetspot to ledge, an upb as far horizontally away as possible with the magnetic snap to ledge, and with an early upb that lands on stage. Marth killer is more of an execution of tech check by the opponent than anything. If there's a way to make sweetspotting easier then I'm all ears for it too

 

[Dr3amSm4sher]

i'm pretty sure you can cc grab anyone who jabs your shield

How do you cc and shield at the same time? Once you enter the shield animation you lose the CC option.

 

[gcboy]

How do you cc and shield at the same time? Once you enter the shield animation you lose the CC option.

Tilt down to angle your shield. On hit you can grab magically. Makes a world of difference shield grabbing against any type of unsafe shield pressure

 

[Dr3amSm4sher]

Sooo....ASDI down grab?? I thought that loses to double jab? or jab immediate tilt? If not im learning this ASAP.

 

[Pauer]

I think it's much more practical to simply input the ASDI down right after inputting the grab.

 

[heyitshoward]

It doesn't lose to double jab. If they don't input another move, jab isn't safe on shield so they get shield grabbed. If they do input another jab, you do get jabbed but you asdi down and grab them for jabbing you because jab isn't safe on asdi down either.

 

[capusa27]

Kadano
Sycorax

Hello: I was wondering if anyone (especially these two) have worked out any solid methods about dealing with Yoshi's parry besides the usual "mix up your attack timings." The only thing that I can think of that could work would be incorporating edge/platform cancelled aerials, but I don't think that this would be very practical to do in a match outside of FoD.

Thank you

 

[Sycorax]

Kadano
Sycorax

Hello: I was wondering if anyone (especially these two) have worked out any solid methods about dealing with Yoshi's parry besides the usual "mix up your attack timings." The only thing that I can think of that could work would be incorporating edge/platform cancelled aerials, but I don't think that this would be very practical to do in a match outside of FoD.

Thank you

Space your moves, nair, timing mixups, hit him in the air, hit him during lag of his moves, hit him on platforms from below, camp ledge with fair regrab

 

[tauKhan]

C capusa27 Don't overlook mixing up timings. I believe that really is the key to beating parries, and what a ton of players don't do well against Yoshi. The basic idea behind is that parrying is really only possible for a very short time: It's easy on frames 1-2 of his shield, requires good spacing on frames 3-4 to avoid a move hitting shield ( Yoshi wants to get hit on his invincible body, if he gets hit on shield that comes up starting from frame 3, he shields move normally), and is almost impossible on frame 5.

So, Yoshi can parry for only a few frames when he shields, and your hitboxes come out quickly enough that they cannot be parried on reaction. Even fsmash comes out so fast that it's basically impossible to react to on visual cue. The conclusion is that the Yoshi needs to be able to predict quite accurately when your hitboxes will come out in order for him to parry your moves consistently.

Some of the timing mixups you want to use against Yoshi can be unintuitive in the sense that they would be unoptimal or even bad against most other characters. For example, say you try to attack Yoshi with a fast falled fair. Usually you want to ff as soon as you're low enough to fair and quickly land afterwards, since extending your time in the air only exposes you to getting interrupted pre-hit without really adding coverage. However against Yoshi you can do that to try to get him out of his attemp to parry the normal aerial timing. This float a bit longer before attacking strat is one of my favorite ways to play around parrying. Also doing slightly earlier aerials that hit high are more viable against Yoshi, since your frame advantage on block doesn't really depend on for how long you're in the air after block.


Also, you might want to pay attention to how much noise you make with your inputs. For example, I can parry fsmash on reaction to hearing my opponent slamming their c-stick. The sounds you make when inputting moves don't lag for considerable amount like the video feed, and humans can also generally react faster to auditory stimuli.

hit him on platforms from below

Yoshi is the character best equipped to deal with that strat with his unpokable shield and no shieldstun though.

 

[Sycorax]

Yoshi is the character best equipped to deal with that strat with his unpokable shield and no shieldstun though.

This is true but there will certainly be opportunities to hit him while he is not/can't shield.

 

[capusa27]

Sycorax T tauKhan
Thank you very much for the information.

Yeah. I should not have overlooked timing mix-ups. After looking back on it, people really do not powershield Marth's arials, so parry doesn't really seem to be a problem.

 

[AustinRC]

Hey Kadano do you have a visual demonstration of Marth catching all DI's on Battlefield? I'm having trouble getting it now and was wondering if you had one out. Saw the yoshi's one but I've been trying a bunch of timings and just can't quite seem to get it. Starting on platform around 21%ish on battlefield.

 

[Bones0]

Sycorax T tauKhan
Thank you very much for the information.

Yeah. I should not have overlooked timing mix-ups. After looking back on it, people really do not powershield Marth's arials, so parry doesn't really seem to be a problem.

Yoshi has a 6-frame window to parry and JC his shield vs. only 4 for powershield so it's definitely a real threat. He also stands to gain a lot from a parry whereas most characters would rather shield early. Yoshi also has a good crouch to facilitate narrowing down his parry timing on Marth's sword swings, especially fair which swings from above.

With all this in mind, you have a few ways to combat a parry happy Yoshi besides nair, which is the simplest counter since it's Marth's only quick multi-hit move. First, you can stay grounded. Grab, dtilt, ftilt, dash attack, side-B, and even fsmash are all much less telegraphed than aerials, but be aware of his solid CC game.

Second, you can do mix-ups instead of aerial after committing to a jump. You can SH toward him, DJ back fair. It will be hard for him to punish if he didn't go for a parry, and will net you a hit if he did go for one and didn't confirm off his attempt.

The other mix-up I think is good vs. parry is empty land. You can empty land utilt to potentially launch him without a DJ. If you're not sure you have time to get it out, you can always empty land into shield and look for grab opportunities if he tries to parry DJC nair and doesn't hit low. If you wanna be ballin' outta control, maybe do empty land counter, but you better be sure he is going to parry into a counter attack.

 

[gcboy]

Two quick questions

1. Is shield asdi up the same as down with regard to being able to grab against unsafe shield pressure (for example badly spaced jabs). Subjectively it feels like they are interchangeable and my choice of up or down depends more on if they're coming down with a bad dair or from below with a bad dtilt for example.

2. Looking for alternatives to spot dodging standing grabs, is it possible to execute a dashback, WD down, dash forward, JC grab for example in the same number of frames it would take to spot dodge grab. I'm thinking a long enough dashback to dodge a marth grab for example. Or should I just single dashback dash in again? Or is Marths dash dance length not enough to dodge for as many frames as a spot dodge would last? Taking as many frames as the spotdodge-grab would take is important to me for a rhythm thing

Edit: actually, a mini tutorial on how to calculate dash dance frames would be appreciated. I don't get it. For example what are the thresholds that would allow me to do a dashdance as far in one direction as possible while still turning to face the other way ala ppmd where he kinda stutter steps in one direction with his dashdance. Or for example why does a long WD - Fsmash feel like it takes just as long as a full dash length pivot tipper but a short wd-fsmash feels like it takes ages versus a short fash pivot tipper. All I could find was about pivot dtilt which I can't do cuz it's hella hard. Sorry I hope I'm articulating myself correctly

 

[Sycorax]

Two quick questions

1. Is shield asdi up the same as down with regard to being able to grab against unsafe shield pressure (for example badly spaced jabs). Subjectively it feels like they are interchangeable and my choice of up or down depends more on if they're coming down with a bad dair or from below with a bad dtilt for example.

2. Looking for alternatives to spot dodging standing grabs, is it possible to execute a dashback, WD down, dash forward, JC grab for example in the same number of frames it would take to spot dodge grab. I'm thinking a long enough dashback to dodge a marth grab for example. Or should I just single dashback dash in again? Or is Marths dash dance length not enough to dodge for as many frames as a spot dodge would last? Taking as many frames as the spotdodge-grab would take is important to me for a rhythm thing

Edit: actually, a mini tutorial on how to calculate dash dance frames would be appreciated. I don't get it. For example what are the thresholds that would allow me to do a dashdance as far in one direction as possible while still turning to face the other way ala ppmd where he kinda stutter steps in one direction with his dashdance. Or for example why does a long WD - Fsmash feel like it takes just as long as a full dash length pivot tipper but a short wd-fsmash feels like it takes ages versus a short fash pivot tipper. All I could find was about pivot dtilt which I can't do cuz it's hella hard. Sorry I hope I'm articulating myself correctly

1. There is no such thing as shield ASDI up. Shield ASDI only works in the horizontal direction. You're probably referring to shield angling (?). Shield angling only helps in situations where it causes the opponent to hit your shield earlier than they normally would. Being hit earlier allows you to get out of stun earlier while the opponent still has to go through all of there normal lag. So angling up against aerials in many situations can help.

2. Dashing to avoid things is only slightly slower than spotdodge and about as fast as rolling. Single dash back then dash in is sufficient and better than the first method you described. Grabs only last 2 frames so you don't need to be out of the way very long. Dash dancing is really good for avoiding grabs. For dash frame data, take a look at this post by Stratocaster. A WD by Marth always has 14 frames of startup lag before being actionable. Pivots on the other hand can vary in time length depending on how many frames of dash you do. So a short pivot fsmash could take 5 frames of startup, but the WD fsmash will always take 14 regardless of length. Pivoting could take up to 15 frames or more at max length.

I hope these answers help.

 

[Vivec]

How should Marth deal with amsah techs? Like say we want to punish Sheik coming back to stage with her up-b, but don't want to leave room for an amsah tech with fsmash or dolphin slash, what hit boxes should we opt for? I've been thinking of inside hit box of utilt or even dsmash if there is no time to tipper dsmash or something. I feel like tipper dair can be a nice di trap against sheik specifically as well, but I don't know if the asdi down will just cause them to avoid that as well (by forcing a tech-in-place) or if they will be popped up for the second dair.

 

[Bones0]

How should Marth deal with amsah techs? Like say we want to punish Sheik coming back to stage with her up-b, but don't want to leave room for an amsah tech with fsmash or dolphin slash, what hit boxes should we opt for? I've been thinking of inside hit box of utilt or even dsmash if there is no time to tipper dsmash or something. I feel like tipper dair can be a nice di trap against sheik specifically as well, but I don't know if the asdi down will just cause them to avoid that as well (by forcing a tech-in-place) or if they will be popped up for the second dair.

If you dtilt, inside utilt, or aerial and they ground tech, you will recover fast enough to be able to tipper them during the tech roll animation. I'm not sure if it's even possible for them to tech twice that quickly, but it's certainly way harder.

 

[CanBeatAnyFaux]

@ Bones0 and @SpiderMad your request reminded me that I’ve long wanted to do input-output control stick maps for aerial and grounded special moves.

Airborne:

Reversals obviously only work in the direction behind you. The area in front of you will simply trigger a normal special move.
The grey area indicates the dead zone. It’s not really relevant here except for giving you an idea how far you need to move the control stick to trigger a nB reversal. The dead zone ranges are universal, so the threshold above which you start to walk very slowly when grounded is the same threshold above which you can trigger a nB reversal.

Grounded:

When you are grounded and keep your control stick at y=84 (and x=[81;175]), pressing B will not trigger any special moves. The input is still triggered by the game, though – for example, in environment visibility 3 and 4, it will trigger the camera stats (if the camera is not in its default position).

What is the difference between the reverse area and the regular side area?

 

[Kadano]

What is the difference between the reverse area and the regular side area?

When your stick is in the blue area and you press B at the same frame, you perform a neutral-B in that direction (reversed if facing the other way before pressing B). When your stick is in the side-B area, you perform a side-B in that direction.

Also, if your stick enters either the blue or the red area, a flag for neutral-B reversal is enabled that stays active for 20 frames and causes you to do your neutral-B in that direction.

This is also the reason why snapback is a problem – if, for example, you input full left and let go off the stick from there, the mass / inertia of the stick causes it to swing so far to the right that it reaches a position that usually corresponds to the right side blue area¹. It stays there for roughly 3-4 ms, so if the stick is polled while it's in that zone, the left flag is set to 0 and the right flag is set to 1, causing you to perform your neutral-B to the right.

¹Exempt from this are controllers which:
1. Have high PODE, essentially a technical malfunction that causes the stick to skip inputs
2. Have a capacitor wired from signal pin to ground pin that smoothens out the snapback (see link above)
3. Use a control stick knob with near-zero mass (for example, you could take out the default gray knob, drill a hole into the stickbox stave and put a toothpick cut in half in there. I don't think that's a good idea, but technically it would probably reduce the moving mass sufficiently so that the blue zone is never entered from snapback)

 

[ridemyboat]

Are there any hitbox diagrams for upair, downair, forward air, dash attack, dtilt, and ftilt that have labels for the different hitbox id's?

I'm trying to identify these hitboxes by id, but can't seem to find any documentation except for uptilt.

My guess so far is that starting from the tipper and moving inwards, the hitboxes are:

fair, bair, ftilt, dtilt, dash attack
3 0 1 2

dair, upair
0 1 2 3

up b
0 1 2

neutral b
3 2 1 0

ftilt I don't really care, since I know that the tipper is id3 and the rest have the same bkb, kbg and percent.

id1 and id2 have identical bkb and kbg and percent on dash attack and bair. I assume that those are the body hit.

Edit: oops, bair's id1 has better bkb than id2.

 

[Kadano]

ridemyboat https://www.ssbwiki.com/Marth_(SSBM)/Forward_aerial
Fair is the only aerial I made a hitbox diagram for. The hitbox tables on the ssbwiki subpages are still useful and give all the important information (except hitbox range).

 

[Bones0]

I know it wasn't one of the moves you asked for, but here is a dsmash ID pic that Kadano made (side view vs. top view for first and second hit):

 

[ridemyboat]

Thanks bones, this is interesting!

Edit: Also, adds dsmash to the 3 0 1 2 pattern.

 

[FrankDaTank]

Does anyone know how Kadano is able to get wavedash down and forward smash against Jigglypuff when she DIs down and away? I can't seem to get it, she flies too far away for the tipper to connect. Am I not acting quickly enough out of the forward throw? Am I not getting max wavedash length? I can't seem to figure it out.

 

[Sharpman767]

Kadano Hey I've done your capacitor mod on my controller, and it's worked great but suddenly I've been having this issue where the control stick only reads about a half press and I start doing a lot of walks when I mean to dash, or shield tilts when I want to roll. When I took the capacitor out the problem went away, but I still have snapback in the controller so I would like to get that fixed if possible. Do you know anything about this? I can provide video if necessary.

 

[Bones0]

Does anyone know how Kadano is able to get wavedash down and forward smash against Jigglypuff when she DIs down and away? I can't seem to get it, she flies too far away for the tipper to connect. Am I not acting quickly enough out of the forward throw? Am I not getting max wavedash length? I can't seem to figure it out.

You're almost certainly not getting the max wavedash distance since it's very precise, but you can use 20xx's wavedash highlights to show you when you're getting a perfect wavedash (or change the angle window so that near perfect wavedashes will also cause Marth to be highlighted).

Puff is also extremely light, which means you can act way sooner out of throws than vs. other characters. Practice wavedashing after throwing just to get a sense of how soon you are actionable. Once you start inputting the wavedash so early that it's not coming out, you'll know you're doing it too quickly and can dial it back a frame or 2.

 

[Kadano]

Kadano Hey I've done your capacitor mod on my controller, and it's worked great but suddenly I've been having this issue where the control stick only reads about a half press and I start doing a lot of walks when I mean to dash, or shield tilts when I want to roll. When I took the capacitor out the problem went away, but I still have snapback in the controller so I would like to get that fixed if possible. Do you know anything about this? I can provide video if necessary.

Did you use a ceramic or an electrolytic capacitor? If you used the latter and inserted it with wrong orientation, it probably got destroyed from that. That's why I recommend using ceramic ones.
Someone once reported a similar issue to me and it turned out the reason was indeed that he wired an electrolytic capacitor the wrong way.

 

[Sharpman767]

It was one of the ceramic capacitors, these ones to be exact https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...itor-1uF-105-50V-1000nF-105M/32455164152.html that you linked somewhere before. I haven't used an electrolytic capacitor on this controller before. I tried replacing the capacitor with another ceramic one but it still had the same issue. Is the controller still salvageable or am I boned?

 

[Kadano]

It was one of the ceramic capacitors, these ones to be exact https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...itor-1uF-105-50V-1000nF-105M/32455164152.html that you linked somewhere before. I haven't used an electrolytic capacitor on this controller before. I tried replacing the capacitor with another ceramic one but it still had the same issue. Is the controller still salvageable or am I boned?

That's a strange problem. If you can record and send me a video of both the controller with your thumb moving the stick and the game with Magus' input display visible, maybe I can make out where the problem might lie.

For definite clearing, you could send me the PCB and I'll inspect it with my oscilloscope, document the problem and try my best to find a solution, but it would take roughly a month until you have it back and I'd have to ask return shipping cost (~14€) to you.

 

[Sharpman767]

After replacing the capacitor the controller seems to be working properly again, though I have replaced it last time and the issue came back after a couple days of use, so if it develops again soon I will post a video here.