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Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

Discussion in 'Marth' started by Kadano, Jun 7, 2013.

  1. AceDudeyeah

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    When a space animal inputs no DI to try to shine you out of your chaingrab at ~20%, is it better to start the pivot regrab by dashing behind or in front of you? (Meaning which one gets you out of the shine range faster/offers more leniency with the regrab window?)

    Also, what do the green hurtboxes mean during the DamageN1 state?
     
  2. Kadano

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    Against a Fox at 20% after uthrow and neutral DI, you have a frame advantage of 12. It takes 7 frames to bring the grab hitbox out, so this leaves 5 frames for positioning.
    [​IMG]
    This image is for 24% after throw, but it’s so similar I won’t make another one just to explain this slightly more accurately.
    In this image, Fox had been thrown up while Marth was facing left. You can see that the hurtboxes are closer to the same-direction grab hitboxes than to the turn-grab hitboxes. Therefore, dashing behind you seems more favorable. However, the difference is so slim that it’s below the distance you move in one frame anyway, so it would only make a difference if Fox was DIing in front of you ever-so-slightly.
    Dashing behind has another advantage: You can Turn (pivot) on any frame of a Dash that was done out of a previous turn. A Dash done out of Wait or any other action can be cancelled into a Turn starting on frame 4 (on frame 3, it can be pseudo-buffered). This comes with the drawback of lower moving speed per frame as the first Turn frame on a dash behind contributes nothing to the total distance while a forward dash moves there from frame 1. Whether this distance loss is detrimental depends on Fox’s damage as with increasing damage, his hurtbox alignments change during the frames during which you can safely grab him.
    The only arguably negative effect this has is that at 24% and later, the fastest timing option for the backward dash regrab that worked at 20% will whiff. It consists of Turn 1, Dash 1, Turn 1.

    Total argument weighing:
    Forward dash
    + Covers more distance per frame [relevant for grabs at 24% as the hurtbox shift encourages positioning yourself further away from Fox]
    − Has a forced minimum duration of 4 frames (5 if the necessary Turn afterwards is included) [doesn’t break options but brings about a very tight input window for Dash and Turn – there is zero leniency at 20%]

    Backward dash
    + Shorter minimum duration of 2 frames (3 if the necessary Turn afterwards is included) [two frames leniency at 20%]
    − At 24%, the earliest leniency option is too fast. Thus, you can’t use the same fastest regrab timing for all regrabs from 20% to 32%.
    All in all, I think backward dash is better. However, I’d rather choose the dash orientation so that I get closer towards an edge to ensure an earlier kill.

    Also, as some time ago someone mentioned that Beat!’s flowchart could be broken by SDIing the shffl uair upwards: At 36% after uthrow, a shff uair (either l- or autocanceled) will lead into a grab even if Fox A+SDIs it upwards. I haven’t tested higher %s and whether instant gravity (doing the aerial before Jump 0) makes a difference yet.
    Green type invincibility.
     
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  3. AceDudeyeah

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    Insane.

    Hmm....I think at 20% my flowchart will consist of 1 dash behind pivot regrab, then when it's not 0 frames leniency anymore, pivoting to bring the fox closer to the edge. Leniency frames with forward dash start as soon as 24%?
     
  4. Kadano

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    Yeah, it’s pretty much +1 leniency frame after every second upthrow. (Every 1% more damage the victim has increases the hitstun amount by 0.2184, rounded up. Because upthrow is staled almost to its maximum when you get to the chaingrab part where you need to pivot, you will only add about 2.4% damage with each upthrow. Multiply this value by 0.2184 and you get roughly 0.5, so every second staled upthrow increases the amount of hitstun and thus the time you have for positioning by 1.)
    Here is a table of the upthrow chaingrab, annotations for neutral / no DI:
    _________________________
    |Frames of |.... Damage |#“within” = this many frames may pass before the
    |..Hitstun |. after hit |#necessary action is triggered
    |__________|____________|
    |...... 34 |...... 4 ...|#3-frame window for the regrab
    |...... 35 |...... 7,64 |#4-frame window for the regrab
    |...... 35 |...... 10,96|#Marth needs to delay his grab by 1-3 frames
    |...... 36 |...... 14 ..|#Marth needs to delay his grab by 1-4 frames
    |...... 37 |...... 16,8 |#Marth needs to delay his grab by 3-5 frames
    |...... 37 |...... 19,4 |#Marth needs to delay his grab by 3-5 frames
    |...... 38 |...... 21,84|#Marth needs to delay his grab by 5-6 frames
    |...... 38 |...... 24,16|#Marth needs to pivot grab within 4-6 frames
    |...... 39 |...... 26,4 |#Marth needs to pivot grab within 4-7 frames
    |...... 39 |...... 28,6 |#Marth needs to pivot grab within 4-7 frames
    |...... 40 |...... 30,8 |#Marth needs to pivot grab within 5-8 frames
    |...... 40 |...... 33 ..|#Marth needs to pivot grab within 5-8 frames
    |...... 41 |...... 35,2 |#Marth needs to delay his grab by 8-9 frames
    |...... 41 |...... 37,4 |#Marth needs to pivot grab or dd-jc grab within 6-9 frames
    |...... 42 |...... 39,6 |#Marth needs to pivot grab or dd-jc grab within 9-10 frames
    |...... 42 |...... 41,8 |#Marth needs to pivot grab or dd-jc grab within 9-10 frames
    |...... 42 |...... 44 ..|#Marth needs to pivot grab or dd-jc grab within 9-10 frames
    |...... 43 |...... 46,2 |#Marth needs to pivot grab or dd-jc grab within 10-11 frames
    |...... 43 |...... 48,4 |#Grab will whiff regardless of preceding movement
    |...... 44 |...... 50,6 |#Grab will whiff regardless of preceding movement
    |...... 44 |...... 52,8 |#Grab will whiff regardless of preceding movement
    |...... 45 |...... 55 ..|#Grab will whiff regardless of preceding movement
    —————————————————————————
    Pivot grab is possible from 4-22% as well, but I left it out because delaying the grab is way easier and just as reliable at the respective percentages.
    Colors indicate technical execution difficulty, in case this wasn’t obvious.
     
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  5. Beat!

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    Thanks a lot for testing this!
     
  6. SAUS

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    Okay this is actually not for marth at all. It regards tether recoveries - for my case, Link's is the one I care about. There seems to be this sweetspot near the edge where if you land the hookshot, then hit A to pull yourself in right away, Link will sort of teleport to the edge. I've tried to figure it out on my own, but I can't get it consistently. I found it to be easiest on battlefield so it may have to do something with the way the edge of the stage is there. It seems to be just below the part where your character grabs onto the edge, but I can't really figure out how it works.
     
  7. AceDudeyeah

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    Goood stuff. I must now become more robotic with my punishments.


    This. I can't figure out whether going for the ledgehop bair edgeguard is safe against Link/Samus because I don't know whether they will teleport to the stage or just get a height boost when they hit A as soon as their tether connects.
     
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  8. SAUS

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    Ha! It is now marth related!
     
  9. ZoSo

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    You're great, Kadano. Just putting that out there.

    I know you've already fielded quite a few questions about this, but if a space animal does a (vertically) perfect sweetspot, could Marth possibly cover it with an extremely late dair or something? Like, with the downward-most hitbox out on the latest airborne frame? Sorry to keep harping on this after others have repeatedly brought it up, but edgeguarding space animals is one of the more significant (and frustrating) micro situations I deal with.

    Something I was thinking about the other night, if Fox starts his up-B high and far from the stage (I understand high and far are subjective but bear with me), would it be feasible to jump off stage and tag him out of the startup with a (slightly charged) neutral-B on reaction?

    Again, I want to thank you for what you've done/are doing. Where do you find the motivation to keep researching this stuff?
     
  10. Kadano

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    No problem! I will cover the entire chaingrab and platform plus finishing options eventually.
    I don’t fully understand the hookshot yet, here is what I have found out so far:
    [​IMG]
    Latest dair does just hit a vertically sweetspotted wall-collided Illusion, but it will not hit a shortened Illusion or a horizontally sweetspotted Illusion. Aerial neutral-B has similar properties in this micro-interaction. It even hits a double-perfect sweetspot (horizontally and vertically) if done very precise (3-frame window).
    Because you need to jump really early, an intelligent player can easily react to that jump with shortening (against dair) or mixing up with up-B (against your neutral-B) or even airdodge if he is close, so I doubt it is a better choice than edgehogging on semi-prediction.
    It’s perfectly fine, there are so many things to research that I often forget some that I wanted to refine; I’m happy you brought this up and reminded me again. It’s just a bit tedious because there are so many variables – what are Fox and Marth’s starting positions and states, does Fox still have his jump, which direction does he hold while falling, when does he start with his Illusion or Firefox, how many frames do we assume the Marth player will react after, etc. etc.

    Yes, as long as your reaction time is not much more than 10 frames. It’s impossible to give a hard value here due to the many up-B positions.
    If Fox is as far away as possible while still being able to land on the stage, you cannot cover all of his angles from a neutral-B charge fulljump, no matter how fast you execute it. All angles towards the ledge, straight forward or slightly upward will be covered, but any angle above 45°/135° will escape your neutral-B and put you in a really bad position – you cannot truly punish Fox afterwards and he gets on stage while you are offstage.
    No problem! It’s just a combination of natural curiosity and lots of spare time.
     
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  11. 1MachGO

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    Hey Kadano, what options do Falco and Fox have to counteract Marth's buffered rolls to escape shield pressure? Can they do anything on reaction or would they have to predict it?
     
  12. ZoSo

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    I'll let Kadano give a more detailed response, but I'm gonna say it highly depends on the type of shield pressure they favor and when you roll.

    @Kadano, thanks for your prompt responses, man. Keep up the good work.
     
  13. Kadano

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    Let’s say a Fox is doing an early shffl nair on your shield and you buffer a roll away after the nair hit. Counting from the first frame your roll away is clearly distinguishable, Fox has 16 frames time to react with dash → jc upsmash. This should be enough for even slow players. Also, these 16 frames even allow missing the l-cancel and still getting the punish on reaction.

    If you roll after the shine, Fox is still stuck in his shffl nair as there is no way to react to your roll with wavedash out of shine. (Would require reaction times of -2 to to 1 frames, haha.)
    Fox has enough time during his shffl nair to perceive your roll and react as soon as he lands on the ground, but the window for him to act to close up to you in time before your shield or dash away comes out is very tight.
    It requires him to do a forward short hop in his shffl nair and execute fast fall, l-cancel, dash towards you, jump, jump cancel upsmash (or grab) all frame-perfect.
    Therefore, rolling away from him after his shine can be considered safe, but not rolling after his nair.
     
  14. 1MachGO

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    Thanks for the reply Kadano. It seems like buffer rolling after shine is a pretty good option... assuming it isn't done habitually haha.

    And quick question, but does shield grabbing override buffered inputs? Could you pseudo-buffer a grab by pressing up on the c stick during shieldstun and then mashing z? Or would you have to let go of L or R after pressing up on the c-stick in order for this to work?
     
  15. AceDudeyeah

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    If a Fox or Falco dash attacks your shield, is it possible to wavedash OOS in place or backwards and then grab 'em before they can buffer a spotdodge?
     
  16. t-iceman

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    I just want to say again that kadano is the savior of the marth boards which was so full of terrible banter that we should honestly delete every other thread in here and just keep this one. Anyway my question is what are the positions where marth can ledgecancel his up b on yoshi's story (frame window pls)? i know that this can work on other stages but you have to recover really high and it is very susceptible to being punished. also works on fod but im pretty sure it's not consistent because of the ledge being jank on that stage
     
  17. Kadano

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    Sorry I didn’t reply to your questions immediately, every single question takes pretty long to look into to be able to give high-accuracy answers, so I took a short pause.
    No. During shield, the first inputs that are checked are control-stick, then C-stick, and then buttons.
    Z produces a grab even when L∨R are depressed. However, there is no incentive to do such a complicated string of inputs when you can simply grab on the first frame after shieldstun.
    Yes, it’s a 6 frame window. If you start the wavedash 6+ frames later than possible, Fox’s shine can hit you before you get the grab out.
    Falco’s AttackDash clean hitbox deals 9 damage instead of 7, which increases the shieldstun by one frame. Because the animation length is the same as Fox’s, your wd frame window decreases by one. Also, Falco’s dash attack causes him to leap forward much more than Fox, so if he “crosses up” very much, you will have to turn around at the end of the wavedash so you are able to grab him. Thus, the total window for the wavedash is 4 frames.
    It’s a zero- to one-frame-window depending on your falling speed. If you are hanging from the ledge and fastfall down, there is not a single frame on which an up-B can be done so that it edgecancels if you use the standard up-B angle. I also was not able to find any fastfall frame and up-B angle combination that produces an edgecancel so far.
    It seems one requirement for an instant edgecancel is to land exactly after frame 27 of your up-B. Whenever I landed after frame 28, it did not edgecancel.
    Also, the YS up-B edgecancel is vastly different from edgecancel as we know them. With normal edgecancels, you slowly slide off the stage, but the up-B edgecancel looks more like Marth teleports off the stage. It might be a legitimate glitch or an intended property of Marth’s up-B. Also, I believe that the slope is also necessary in two ways:
    1. Without the slope, it is not possible to land as early as after frame 27 – the slope makes the height of the edge you need to pass lower than the height of the stage where you land.
    2. In theory, another way to force a land after frame 27 are rising platforms. However, when I tested it on Pokéfloats, landing after frame 27 did not cause the edgecancel. Thus, either the slope or the ledge might be necessary too.

    Here are two gifs that explain everything I understand about it so far. The left animation is slowed down to 1/6th speed, the right one is slowed down to 1/12th speed with all frames that have added text being displayed for three seconds:
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Edit: Maybe it’s more helpful to see all frames at once so you can look at them in the speed you prefer:
    [​IMG]
    Edit: The large blue box is not the item grab box. It’s the camera box. Sorry for making mistakes.
     
    #297 Kadano, Dec 10, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2014
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  18. SAUS

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    OMG! Thanks for this Kadano!
    This is the sweetspot I was looking for where Link can kind of teleport to the edge. Do you know how much lenience there is for this sweetspot? Do you know if it's always slightly below the edge for other stages?

    Also my friend insists that he's been told that short-hop double-fair with marth is not safe/doesn't work and that he should be able to do something in between hits (even if I tipper the first fair). Is this true? I don't play marth too much but I find that double-fair still combos well enough as long as I tipper the first one. I think maybe the people meant for when he is shielding but I am not sure.
     
  19. Kadano

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    At the position in the animation you quoted, pressing A on frames 4-9 and on 29 or later of your 313 animation will cause the teleport. This frame window is the largest when your hookshot hits as high as possible. In the animation above, it’s a bit lower than what would have been optimal.
    Here is a perfect sweetspot:
    [​IMG]

    More or less, but it would take ridiculously long to explain this in detail. Suffice to say that on all stages, aiming for the highest part of the wall is optimal, although the frame windows for pressing A differ from stage to stage due to the hookshot’s ECB alignment.
    It depends on damage before hit, character, DI and timing. In some situations, shdf hits fairly reliably. Even at 0% before hit, SDI+ASDI away will escape the second fair.
     
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  20. AceDudeyeah

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    This is huge. No more punishing dash attacks with DAIR outta shield.
    Does the shieldstun decrease enough with a late-hit dashattack that still crosses up to allow the wavedash OOS grab punish?
     
  21. TheCrimsonBlur

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    6 (fox) / 4 (falco) frames? Wow, I didnt realize its that easy.

    Sexy stuff with the edgecancel upB. 0-1 frame o_o. Shoutouts to frame 27

    ---

    I agree with iceman btw. Let's delete the rest of smashboards and just keep this thread. Maybe then the DDoSers would **** off.
     
  22. The Depths

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    Does anyone (Kadano lol) have the data for dtilt fair and nair on shield? I was wondering how disadvantaged these moves are on shield (assuming fair and nair are done perfectly and dtilt takes IASA into account). I have easily been able to find the frame data for these moves but it doesn't include shield advantage.
     
  23. Kadano

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    Dtilt tipper alone is −6. Weaker dtilt hitboxes are −7. I won’t go into staleness details as you can calculate this with Strong Bad’s Knockback Calculator or The same tool with Toomai’s complete hitbox collection for easy referencing.
    Fair tipper is +0 and nair is −1.
    Let’s say you are facing a Link who shields against your late fair. If you dtilt afterwards, then short hop and either double fair or late fair, dtilt again etc. with perfect spacing, he can’t do much. His up-B range is less than your dtilt and fair range, and his grab is too slow and doesn’t connect with your legs when you are airborne.
     
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  24. The Depths

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    I see. Thanks for the info/links thats all pretty useful :) .
     
  25. Kadano

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    No problem. Also, here is a gif that illustrates the “perfect” spacing:
    [​IMG]
    At no point in this animation could Link have hit the Marth with up-B or grab.
     
  26. SAUS

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    You are the best Kadano. I also support deleting the entire forum except for this thread >.< lol

    I'm gonna guess that the people my friend asked meant that double-fair on shield is what is not safe. Hitting with the first one (without them SDIing + ASDIing) seems to work fine for me.

    And damn that explains SOOOO much! I'll just have to try different timing as opposed to spacing for Link's hookshot. That's crazy! Thanks for the help!
     
  27. AustinRC

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    Hey Kadano, is upthrow up tilt a combo on Sheik/ Marth/ Roy? I sometimes hit it and then other times they jump out, I know it's probably percent and DI related but I'd really appreciate if you could look into this for me. Thanks in advanced.
     
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  28. Kadano

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    Sheik
    Upthrow takes 40 frames against her.
    0-8% – 2-3 frame window for Sheik’s jump escape timing (cannot be buffered)
    12% – 2 frame window
    13% – 1 frame window
    17% – 2 frame window
    21% – 1 frame window
    22-30% – utilt is guaranteed, you need to turn if she DIs behind you
    35-41% – utilt is guaranteed on neutral DI only, otherwise it will whiff.
    32-45% – If she DIs behind you, tipper fsmash will miss just barely (she needs to hit a one frame window for the jump to avoid it). If she DIs behind you or in front of you, short hop fair will tipper her if done frame perfect (dash 1 frame, jump for one frame, then input the fair).
    29-57% – On neutral DI, short hop uair will always hit her.
    50-70% – On neutral DI, full jump uair will always connect, you need to delay the uair by one frame every 6% or so.
    70-86% – On neutral DI, full jump → second jump uair will always connect.

    From 90% onwards, it seems that there are no guaranteed followups. All percentages are given as before hit, although that’s not like Melee calculates it.

    Marth
    Upthrow takes 39 frames against him. He is too floaty for uthrow utilt to ever combo on him.

    Roy
    Upthrow takes 38 frames against him. Because of his high gravity and slow second jump acceleration, trying to jump out of uthrow-uair will still make him get hit by utilt. Thus, it is guaranteed against him until 29% for neutral DI and until about 24% for away or behind.
     
    #308 Kadano, Dec 12, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2014
  29. AustinRC

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    Awesome thanks!
     
  30. SAUS

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    Against marth I think forward/down throw is the default. It gets him off the edge if you are nearby and otherwise puts them in a bad position. With bad DI you get hard punishes.
     
  31. Bones0

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    What does that mean for these percent ranges: 9-11%,14-16%, 18-20%?


    There's no real reason to miss the DI on fthrow in Marth dittos. You can react to it pretty easily with practice.
     
  32. SAUS

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    I know, I just feel like up-throw is a waste of your grab in a marth ditto.

    You can still miss the DI if they down-throw when you expect a forward-throw or the other way around. I'm pretty sure you can react to it either way, but you can still mess it up.
     
  33. Beat!

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    Uthrow is ****ing amazing in Marth dittos. Marth juggles himself to oblivion. How is it a "waste"?
     
  34. SAUS

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    Well I don't use it :p I usually just try to throw them off the edge. I find damage doesn't get me anywhere in the ditto.
     
  35. Beat!

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    Except uthrow isn't just for damage, it's for positional advantage as well.

    Throwing your opponent off the edge isn't always an option. If damage isn't a concern for you, then how exactly do you benefit from f/dthrow when you're in the middle of the stage? Your opponent isn't going off stage, and if s/he DIs correctly you're probably not going to get any other kind of positional advantage either.
     
    knoxvader likes this.
  36. SAUS

    SAUS
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    Smash Ace

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    At very low damage you can f-throw into f-throw, and a little higher than that it forces a tech at least. It still gives advantage. I don't think up-throw is useless, I just don't use it so that's why I said I felt it's a waste.
     
  37. Beat!

    Beat!
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    Smash Master

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    Okay, so like 4 damage. And unreliable, at that.

    While forcing a tech chase will generally result in an advantageous position for you, how is it better (read: less of a "waste") than being below a character which sucks at getting down with a character that's amazing at juggling?
     
  38. Tee ay eye

    Tee ay eye
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    Smash Hero

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    when you get hit by falco's dair, you should DI up and away, right?
     
  39. SAUS

    SAUS
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    Smash Ace

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    F-throw into f-throw is for moving your opponent, not racking up damage.

    Yes, I already said you get to do lots of damage, but I find the damage doesn't get me anywhere. Combos stop working and kill moves are too slow. You have to do a ton of damage so that you can hit them off with nairs and stuff before it matters.

    When you are on the ground or in the air (getting spiked off the edge)?

    When off the edge, I DI toward the stage and hope I can tech/land on the stage. When on the ground, I usually just DI away rather than up and away. I'm not sure of the most efficient angle to DI though.
     
  40. Beat!

    Beat!
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    Smash Master

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    You move him an almost negligible distance at the cost of potentially not getting any follow-up whatsoever, when you COULD be setting up a juggle.

    No, you do not have to do "a ton of damage" to get an airborne Marth off stage. In fact, it's much easier to send him off stage that way than by d/fthrowing him towards an edge over and over.
     

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