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Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

Discussion in 'Marth' started by Kadano, Jun 7, 2013.

  1. AceDudeyeah

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    I've had it happen in Marth dittos too. Is the grab-interrupt possible with physical attacks too?
     
  2. Mahie

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    Well the thing is, aren't there better, more reliable options to kill Sheik ?

    Why would I try to counter if I have to go behind her and all ?

    Unless of course, I'm already airborne and behind her, in which case yeah that could be a nice thing to try, like M2K did on that video in fact.
     
  3. MookieRah

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    Kadano, something weird happens every so often when I practice the ledge tech > bair > ledge regrab trick. On occasion it looks like Marth sticky grabs his upB like in Brawl. It could just be a sweetspot and the explosion is confusing me, but when it happened (3 times in one sitting) it looked as if I was way too close to the ledge when I performed the up B to sweetspot, the explosion exploded pretty much on top of my character, and that I grabbed the ledge faster than normal taking no damage.
     
  4. Kadano

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    I don’t know an attack Marth has that could trigger it. If you have a video example, I’ll happily research it.
    Not in that situation. As for other situations, this is a very macroscopical question that I don’t feel qualified enough to answer.
    You can only be too close to the ledge during your ↑B’s zenith on Yoshi’s Story and Battlefield. To tell you more, I would need to see footage of an instance. In general, depending on where exactly you placed the mine, it can be possible to grab the ledge without getting hit.
     
  5. MookieRah

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    I worded that poorly, but what I meant to say is that I don't think I was in sweetspot range vertically. By too close I meant that I did my upB too early so that I should have either went above the ledge or possibly onto the stage. Sadly I have no method of recording, otherwise I'd just turn it on whenever I practiced this to see if it would happen again.

    Some more details that I didn't mention:
    I was at 0% the last time I did it, as I was wanting to make sure if I actually took any damage or not when it happened. I was on FoD, and the bomb was not set on the ledge, it was set on the stage very close to the ledge. I doubt this would help much, but I should have posted this earlier.
     
  6. Bones0

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    Maybe you curled your up-B. It doesn't go as high as a full North up-B so it might look like you weren't going to sweetspot when you actually were at the perfect height for a curled up-B sweetspot. This seems even more likely when you consider the fact that you were practicing techs and were likely pressing the stick towards the stage immediately after inputting the up-B.
     
  7. MookieRah

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    Wow, ok, I didn't know that was a thing. That's probably it too, cause in order to do that tech I input upwards, then slam the stick down and do a half circle towards the stage to the top again. The more you know.

    How difficult is this to pull off consistently? I would imagine this would be quite good for varying your recovery. Kinda like how shortened illusions mix things up.
     
  8. Bones0

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    It's pretty easy, but very important. Test it with Roy and you can go like half-stage on YS. lol
     
  9. Bones0

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    I've heard this more than a few times, but is there any truth to the claim that Marth can nair an opponent's shield and dash away/through before getting grabbed?
     
  10. SUNG666

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    It's definitely true, you can also do it with the single first hit nair, land, dash
     
  11. x7king7x

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    i have a question about the fox up aerial tech chasing when you say fast fall the aerial is it a rising aerial or a falling aerial also for example the platforms on battlefield are they same when applying the same concept of the fast falling the up aerial or not depending on the choice they did also is it different for yoshi story and battlefield the up aerial sweet spotting or are they the same
     
  12. Mahie

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    It's really difficult to understand your question, do you think you could phrase it differently?

    And if you could throw in some punctuation/formatting, that'd be great.
     
  13. Beat!

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    Generally speaking, you want to do falling upairs when tech chasing Fox (or any other character for that matter) on a platform, because it gives you more time to hit him again before he gets out of hitstun.
     
  14. Kadano

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    That is true at least against Fox. To be able to dash through, you need to draw your AC nair as close to him as possible without crossing over. When you are that close, dashing away to escape the grab is not possible, but if you land slightly farther away, it is.
    Well, it does show in the gif that those uairs are down while falling. I also explained in the text that it’s different on BF. (What I didn’t mention is that DL64 is actually the easiest as the platforms there are so small that it’s pretty easy to stand at a complete coverage spot. You need to input the uair ~5 frames earlier than in the YS gifs, though.)
     
  15. x7king7x

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    i guess what i was trying to say in order to get the sweetspot of up air do i have to do a rising and at the peak of the jump fast fall or a falling aerial as in do it as late and fast fall but the second one doesnt seem to work im not sure
     
  16. Bones0

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    Tipping uairs is as much about your horizontal spacing as it is about your height. I highly suggest just watching M2K matches and watching how he does his uairs. He has amazing platform uairs to lead into whatever setup he needs for the situation. What I will say is that you'll almost always FF once you've hit the opponent because you need to get back to the ground asap if you plan on getting another uair. Only exceptions I can think of are when you want to land on a plat (either the one you're uairing them on or a side plat so you can get another run off, DJ uair).
     
  17. Kadano

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    You do a falling uair and react to your opponents tech: If he techs in place or misses his tech, you fastfall before the uair hits. If he techrolls, you fastfall after the hit. (I’m beginning to wonder why I created those gifs, all this information is clearly visible within them and it feels stupid to explain what you could see just by looking at them.)
     
  18. AustinRC

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    Kadano, you ever finish the Jigglypuff stuff? I'm just sitting here, killing Puffs with this crazy **** I hope you've revealed it! HAHA
     
  19. Bones0

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    I had no idea you added GIFs concerning platform uairs! Glad to be able to systematically uair as I've pretty much just gone with my guts up until now. I didn't realize there was such a refined way of always getting the uair.

    Also, is there any info floating around concerning bthrow punishes on high % spacies? I've seen M2K bthrow dashback up-B but have failed to replicate it at all. Idk if it's DI dependent, if it only works off stage, or if it doesn't even combo and the spacie is just getting mind****ed. I've also seen bthrow fsmash. I guess how high of a % they are also comes into play here. I'm just very curious about these KO setups on FFers because people always complain about Marth's lack of KO setups at high %s, but M2K is constantly using epic trickery to get kills. That uthrow, sourspot up-B on SFAT at TBH3 being a prime example. A quick breakdown of which parts of up-B do what would be appreciated. :D
     
  20. Kadano

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    It’s all within the image in the op of this thread (dash wd dsmash, wd fsmash, jc upsmash etc.). Is there something I forgot about? As far as I know, all that is left are killing options at different %s, but as those are probably quite similar to the one I already made, I don’t feel enough people care to bother with it.
    If spacies DI the bthrow behind you, there are no guaranteed followups. Bthrow → fsmash starts working on ~150% if they DI in/upwards.
    Concerning Dolphin Slash, it’s actually fairly simple. There are five different hitboxes: Two on the intangible frame, one of them at his swords tip (the strong finisher that does 13%), the other one is attached to both his sword hilt and his hip.
    The other three are active during all consecutive frames during which Marth leaps into the air. The stronger one does 7%, and …

    … screw that. Here are some pictures:
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Once Marth has started leaping upwards, they don’t change stats-wise. Mew2king probably hit with the tipper one, which has a lower angle.
     
    #180 Kadano, Oct 15, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2017
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  21. Bones0

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    Awesome, very useful to know to tip it. Followup question: does curling the up-B make it easier or harder to tip? Do the hitboxes actually change their angle to match Marth's previous position with the next frame's position, or does the game just have set hitboxes for each frame of the move in which case a curled up-B's hitboxes would overlap exactly with a straight up-B's hitboxes?

    My logic is that if the hitboxes are attached to certain parts of Marth's sword and Marth's sword is spread more horizontally when you curl, it'd probably be easier to tip with a curled up-B because you would have more distance separating the edge of the "tip" hitbox and the edge of the "barely-missed-the-tip" hitbox.
     
  22. Vivec

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    How many frames for a simple turn-around?
     
  23. Kadano

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    11. It can be canceled into any attack except neutral-B during all of its frames. Dashing is only possible on the very first frame.
    Again, it’s not that simple and depends on the situation. Here are the hitboxes on the same frame with a up-B that’s angled as low as possible, I hope that answers all of your questions:
    [​IMG]
     
    #183 Kadano, Oct 24, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2017
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  24. Bones0

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    How many frames (if any) do you have to wait after inputting a turnaround before cancelling it with a shield? Sometimes when I'm trying to shield a GUA and idk what side of me they landed on, it seems like I start to turn around, then I shield the GUA, but then my grab comes out in the direction I was facing before. It makes it seem like I don't actually turn around until after 3 frames if I shield during the turnaround.
     
  25. Kadano

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    I was not able to reproduce your issue. For me, turning can immediately be canceled into a shield whose direction is already turned, and so is the subsequent grab. (While toying around, I noticed how nice powershielding a GUA into tipper fsmash or dsmash looks. Considering physical PS is a 4 frame window and getup attacks are slow enough so that you can react to them, this is something that might see actual usage.)
     
  26. Bones0

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    Must just be in my head. And yeah, I've done PS fsmash to punish GUAs. I couldn't get it consistently because it's hard to quickly identify if you have to PS the early swing or late swing of the GUA, but I think some GUAs hit at the same time on both sides so maybe that would work. Or maybe Marth can duck under the edge of certain GUAs while still being able to shield. That would not only make the reaction easier, but it would probably leave you in tipper range. Maybe I'll mess around with it vs. comps some more. For now, up-B OoS will suffice as a reactionary KO move to GUAs.
     
  27. Vivec

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    How many frames to crouch? How many frames to wd on spot? If I wanted to turn-around and use dtilt out of sprint would it be faster to wd on spot and then turn-around or crouch and then turn-around? How many frames to put up a shield? How many frames when letting go off the shield? Is it faster to wd on spot oos rather than letting go of the shield button if the shield is in hit stun? What kind of attack on shield would warrant using wd on spot rather than simply letting go of the shield button (clarification: would getting hit by falco's jab make letting go of shield a slower option than wd on spot or would I need to get hit by a stronger move)?

    Sorry for the questions and thanks for the thread.
     
  28. Bones0

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    Idk about the crouching frames, but here's what I can tell you:

    The number of frames required to WD in place is the same as WDing at any angle. No matter what angle you airdodge at or how high off the ground you airdodge from, landing during the airdodge will incur 10 frames of landing lag for all characters. Idk how many frames you have to wait until the actual airdodge is finished and you can land with (what I believe is) 4 frames of default landing lag. Anyway, you can combine those 10 frames of lag with however many frames of jumpsquat the character in question has. All jumpsquat frame values can be found in Mew2King's "SSBM Statistics" thread. Just search for it (on Google if you want), and scroll down to the jump speed section. It's important to note that M2K's thread counts the first airborne frame as part of the jump speed. For most purposes related to frames, you will want to consider a jump to last x-1 frames based on what he has listed. M2K's list says Marth's jump speed is 5 frames, which means he is airborne frame 5. This is the first frame you can input an airdodge for a WD, shine for a grounded shine, or anything besides a grab or usmash (because those two are possible to input during jumpsquat). So subtracting 1, you can see Marth has 4 frames of jumpsquat. That means a frame perfect WD consists of 4 frames of jumpsquat followed by 10 frames of lag.

    Your shield comes up on the first frame after you input it. Shield release has 15 frames of lag. I remember this because I play Falco, and he has a WD totalling 15 frames (1 more frame of jumpsquat than Marth). This means WDing in place to, for example, utilt, isn't any faster than simply letting go of shield. For Marth, his WD only takes 14 frames so it's 1 frame faster than releasing your shield if you do the airdodge frame perfectly. If you are in shield stun, you would also have to jump OoS frame perfectly whereas releasing your shield would obviously buffer as soon as shield stun ends. The strength of the attack is irrelevant because you can't jump or shield release until shield stun is over. One of them is not available to you sooner than the other.

    For practical purposes, the major thing to think about when deciding to shield release or WD OoS is your stick. WDing OoS will make you DI downward which can be disastrous if you get hit by something like Falcon's knee and don't ground tech. Shield releasing, on the other hand, does not force you to hold the stick in any particular direction so you can buffer DI in case you get hit or buffer a directional input to start walking/tilting/turn around. Personally, shield releasing instead of WDing OoS is something I've been wanting to get in the habit of for a while, but it's hard because there's very few situations where you want to unshield without adjusting your spacing. In a game that's all about spacing, it's unlikely you'll ever be in the right spot so that WDing straight down is desired, and the risk of DIing an attack down is mostly negated by the fact that you wouldn't be trying to move OoS if you saw the opponent attacking in the first place.
     
  29. MasterShake

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    I'm a n00b and don't know how to search threads.

    Is there any info here on how to grab crouching jiggs.
     
  30. Purpletuce

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    To grab crouching jiggs, do a running grab, don't JC.

    Bones, if Marth has 5 frames jumpsquat, making him airbourne on frame 5, then wouldn't a frame perfect WD be 15 frames? I think you would need to have the fifth frame where you're barely airborne be used to input the wavedash, then add in the landing land starting on frame 6.
     
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  31. Kadano

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    These are good questions, I’m happy to answer them. Note: capitalized terms indicate that they are part of Melee’s debug mode terminology.

    1. Crouching animation
    Pressing down on the control stick immediately causes the character to crouch down. This animation is called Squat by the game and lasts 7 frames. If down is kept pressed after frame 7, the animation transitions into SquatWait that works just like Squat and consists of 80 frames that repeat indefinitely.
    Both Squat and SquatWait have crouch-cancel properties.
    SquatWait can be interrupted with everything except walking, neutral-B and side-B.
    Before every frame of SquatWait, the control stick position is checked. If it is returned to neutral, SquatRV starts. SquatRV has no crouch-cancel properties and serves as a transition into the normal standing animation. It lasts 8 frames and can be interrupted with every move except Turn, neutral-B and side-B.
    2. Wavedashing
    Marth has 4 frames jumpsquat / Kneebend and the generic 10 frames LandingFallSpecial from airdodges, thus a perfect wavedash is 14 frames.
    3. Fastest way to run-turn-dtilt
    Wavedash-turn takes 15 frames (4 Kneebend + 10 LandingFallSpecial + 1 Turn). Crouch-turn takes 9 frames (1 RunBrake + 7 Squat + 1 Turn). Thus, crouching is faster.
    Because it is only possible to Turn on a frame that would be a SquatWait frame otherwise, the control stick must be changed very quickly from downwards to backwards to ensure SquatRV isn’t triggered, as that can’t be interrupted with a Turn. Failing to do this results in a total duration of 17 frames – more than a wavedash-turn.
    4. Shield lag
    Shield lag (GuardOff) is 16 frames. You can do both this and wavedash as soon as shield stun / shield startup (GuardReflect, 8 frames) ends, so there are no situations where simply letting go is faster than a perfect wavedash.
    That’s a somewhat complicated micro-situation. Basically, it depends on Jigglypuff’s crouch animation type, that animation’s current frame, and Marth’s spacing and grab type.
    It is sometimes possible to grab her with a standing grab, and it’s always possible to grab her with a dash grab if it is done very close to her – so close that she can easily rest Marth before his grab comes out.
    [​IMG]
    The highest dash grab hitbox reaches about as far down as the lowest standing grab hitbox.
    Jigglypuff has two different SquatWait animations. SquatWait1 has her hurtbox stay very low all the time, so standing grab will never collide. Even dash grab’s hitbox 0 is too high, only dash grab’s hitboxes 1 and 2 always collide if you place them very close to her.
    SquatWait2 – during which she turns her head around a bit – on the other hand is vulnerable to all of Marth’s standing grab hitboxes for 17 out of 64 frames.
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    To put this out of the TAS world and into real gameplay, to be sure to land a grab on a crouching Jigglypuff without the risk of getting rested, you need to stay at normal grab spacing in front of her and wait for her to stand up slightly and do this wiggle-motion. React immediately with a standing grab.
    I don’t think standing in front of her like an idiot is a good idea, though. Dtilt is your best tool against crouch-happy balloons. It might be a fun idea to surprise unexpecting Jigglypuffs at ~80% with a wiggle-react standing grab to forward throw wavedash tipper fsmash, but I don’t see this ever becoming a staple option, haha.
    Here is the wiggle motion so you know what you have to react to:

    It seems to be entirely random when exactly SquatWait2 starts. Sometimes, it alternates with SW1 for a few times, sometimes SW1 is repeated five times without SW2 being played.
     
    #191 Kadano, Oct 28, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2017
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  32. MT_

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    This standing grab getting Puff thing is actually really interesting. The Puff I play against likes to crouch right in front of my shield and wait for me to do something. If I get really good at reacting to SquatWait2 then maybe I can blow his mind by grabbing him out of his crouch LOL.
     
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  33. Bones0

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    @Kadano
    What are the rules about what you can do during shield release? Can you still JC or spotdodge during the first few frames? Does your shield stop protecting you on the first frame after releasing, or does it linger for a couple frames before you are exposed?

    Did I say that somewhere? I reread my post and didn't see it.
     
  34. Kadano

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    Jumping and spotdodging is possible during all 16 frames. X, Y or down/up on control stick / C-stick are enough to trigger these; it is not necessary to press a shoulder button.
    The shield is lost immediately.
     
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  35. Purpletuce

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    [quote="Bones0, post: 15940899, member: 22467" For most purposes related to frames, you will want to consider a jump to last x-1 frames based on what he has listed. M2K's list says Marth's jump speed is 5 frames, which means he is airborne frame 5. This is the first frame you can input an airdodge for a WD, shine for a grounded shine, or anything besides a grab or usmash (because those two are possible to input during jumpsquat). So subtracting 1, you can see Marth has 4 frames of jumpsquat. That means a frame perfect WD consists of 4 frames of jumpsquat followed by 10 frames of lag.

    Your shield comes up on the first frame after you input it. Shield release has 15 frames of lag. I remember this because I play Falco, and he has a WD totalling 15 frames (1 more frame of jumpsquat than Marth). This means WDing in place to, for example, utilt, isn't any faster than simply letting go of shield. For Marth, his WD only takes 14 frames so it's 1 frame faster than releasing your shield if you do the airdodge frame perfectly. [/quote]

    You didn't mention needing a frame for the input, and neither did Kadano in his following post, which is interesting. Can the input for the WD be done while you're in jumpsquat? I assumed it would have to be done on the first possible frame after jumpsquat. . .
     
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  36. Bones0

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    If you input the airdodge on the 4th and final frame of jumpsquat, you will airdodge frame 5. You don't need a frame dedicated to being airborne because the game understands that you're airborne frame 5 without having to go through a frame of you being airborne. It's funny that confused you because Kadano and I were just discussing this confusion about frame inputs in the FAQ thread. Inputs are technically not executed until the next frame after you pressed the button.

    The example I used in the other thread was imagine each frame is 5 seconds long. If I airdodge halfway through the 4th frame of jumpsquat, that input doesn't get executed until the next frame which I would normally be airborne on, but the game figures out in between frames that I would be in airdodge landing lag based on my inputs so it just has me grounded the next frame even though there wasn't an airborne frame. This is easy to visualize with long frames because it doesn't feel instantaneous. You would simply see the 4th frame of jumpsquat for 2.5 seconds, input the airdodge, wait 2.5 more seconds for that frame to end and the next 5 seconds are dedicated to the first frame of the WD.
     
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  37. Tee ay eye

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    AZ

    correlation, not causation

    correlation simply means there is a numerical trend
     
    Kadano likes this.
  38. Tee ay eye

    Tee ay eye
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    Smash Hero

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2008
    Messages:
    5,635
    Location:
    AZ
    questions to kadano:

    1. is it feasible to react to fox's ledgedash shine and be able to do anything? i was thinking of spacing myself right around fox's ledgedash -> usmash range, so i'm close enough to be a threat, but far enough away so that i can escape if i need to, but i don't know if i have the means to escape.

    e.g. shield, wd back, dash away

    2. do you know anything about how to DI against sheik and falcon? against these characters, sometimes i feel like they have pretty solid followups on every DI and that sometimes it's better to just DI weirdly to throw them off (e.g. partial DI, no DI, DI inwards, etc), but that's a little too janky for my liking, unless it's supported by numbers, in which case it ceases to be janky :)

    3. similar to question #2, but i kinda wanted to know about how to DI against marth's fthrow. i've believed for a while that using down-away DI is the best option (trajectory is roughly up-away, so down-away seems like it'd be the best), but i've heard of people using downward DI to great success.

    additionally, i know/think that straight-away DI isn't too fantastic against f-throw, but based on my approximations and understanding of DI, straight-away DI and downward DI should have the same effect on your f-throw trajectory:

    i assumed that f-throw trajectory was 45 degrees, so...
    DI down: sin^2(135) = 0.5, 0.5*18 = 9 degrees change
    DI away: sin^2(45) = 0.5, 0.5*18 = 9 degrees change
    DI down-away: sin^2(90) = 1, 1*18 = 18 degrees change

    my 45-degree assumption might have been inaccurate, but i don't imagine that it was so far inaccurate that it would explain the results

    4. what exactly are the mechanics behind marth's first-hit forward B when it comes to recovery?

    5. [​IMG]
     
  39. ZoSo

    ZoSo
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    Smash Champion

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2003
    Messages:
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    Location:
    Melee
    This thread is AMAZING. Very nice stuff here, Kadano. Can't even tell you how thankful I am for all the work you've put in. I'll buy you a beer if we ever meet face to face.

    Very interested in your thoughts on this.
     
  40. pewpewyou

    pewpewyou
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    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2007
    Messages:
    206
    You are a god
     
    Scidadle and ZoSo like this.

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