Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

@Kadano: By the potential, I doubt anything ground breaking is going to be happening any time soon. At this point, its shaping up how the player uses marth more than anything. By the tech skill, I mean consistency in punish game and how well you can keep up in the neutral. Throughout a match, you'll always see a player make these micro mistakes like trading with marth's fair/uair when it shouldn't have. Or trying to grab a fox/falco dash attack when you can't when its spaced right.

But, back on topic... Do you have any intentions of looking at platform dropping while in shield? I heard of a few people say a few things about it, but nothing seems solid. Is it purely the speed you have to press down with the stick? Is there a max distance you can go and it won't work? Perhaps a combination of a few things. Might there be more easy methods to getting the drop because of shield stun?

@Blacktician: I think you missed the point I was trying to make earlier with Marth's punish game. Yes, every character requires timing and spacing properly and this is quite true in a neutral setting. However, as soon as you get into a punishment part of the game... strict timing and spacing for other top tier characters drops dramatically. Spacies and Sheik for example have long lasting hitboxes with good range that are quite poweful (bair/nair). It doesn't really take very proper spacing or timing to make contact with them when you have launchers like uthrow (fox), dthrow (sheik), or shine for both spacies. With marth's punishment game thrives strict spacing and timing. If you hit with non-tipper Dash attack, you can say good by to an easy follow-up. Got that tipper Fair on spacies off stage? They just recovered because they got sent up instead of out. But, there is more to it than that.

By confusion, I meant flailing about that tends to happen when hit unexpectedly such as a jab or lasers. And Marth has the tools in the form of power shielding, platform play, counter, and straight up tanking the laser with crouch cancel. I think all characters with good ground speed can deal with lasers by simply tanking hits with crouch cancel. The stun/hitlag is almost reduced by half when you do this. You can dash -> cc laser -> dash immediately to close distance.

If we are talking about perfect timing, Falco can get a SHL (low one) out every 26 frames or so. Probably closer to about 1/2 of a second given occasional screw-up of say 4 frames. Marth is in hitlag/hitstun in CC for 7 frames... In 1/3 of a second Marth can start-up a dash into a run and cover about 1/4 the distance on FD in that amount of time. With watching for Falco, getting a feel for the timing of about to get hit by a laser and the timing for how much stun/lag a laser has, I think this would be perfectly reasonable to say someone could get do this consistently to close the distance on Falco.

Lasers really only serve the purpose to disorient you and mess up timing into doing something wrong. I don't think Falco should be getting a single laser off from half the stage away, then hitting marth with a SH aerial approach at all. If Fox did a SH aerial approach from half the stage away you'd expect marth to just DD out of the way and cover the landing. However, Falco gets away with it many times because of a player mistake. I think you could either accept that lasers will continually keep screwing you up and Marth can do nothing about it, or you can think Marth can put up with lasers and plow right through them because you are so proficient at PS lasers or CC -> dash timing and reacting to Falco you are not phased by them at all and you are actually fighting Falco and not the projectile. Oh, and I suppose this compliments the idea of Marth needing a high technical demand in order to deal with stuff in this game for very little reward.

 

[Kadano]

I said "fair uair", as in you retreating fair, and late uair as you land to cover any approaches timed after your fair disappears. I think late uairing is a lot better the people give it credit for.

SH fair→uair still has Marth in lag for 26 frames between fair and uair hitbox and 7 after uair. Enough for Falco to trade with nair, so I guess Fox can hit you on reaction to first fair without trading.

It comes out in front (where it matters most) before fair does

No.

it's seems way easier to tip than fair meaning people won't just be able to ASDI it down and punish

At low percent, ASDI down does cause an instant land against tipper uair.

How does Marth NOT have the tools to deal with lasering? First of all, he has a great PS. And by great, I mean pretty damn easy.

Did you read the op? Low lasers have a PS window of 1 frame. That is not “pretty damn easy”. The Falco player I usually play with already picks that up. About 75% of his lasers are so low that I can’t crouch under them.
Marth can sh over all low lasers that he can’t PS easily, but he can’t sh over all lasers higher than that. And it’s not like you could react to the laser height in time and use sh/crouch ps in time, so Falco clearly has the edge while SHLing.
Oh, I just saw Blacktician already mentioned this.

But, back on topic... Do you have any intentions of looking at platform dropping while in shield? I heard of a few people say a few things about it, but nothing seems solid. Is it purely the speed you have to press down with the stick? Is there a max distance you can go and it won't work? Perhaps a combination of a few things. Might there be more easy methods to getting the drop because of shield stun?

I’ve looked at it for some hours and I have a little bit of understanding now.
To cause a shield drop, you must input values of 72<x<184 Λ 72<y<76¹. Also, Δy must be above a certain threshold (don’t know the exact value yet).
Here are your options after waiting with a neutral (128,128) shield:

Every pixel represents a value of the control stick resolution. These should be correct.
By slowly angling your shield to the side you effectively move the roll and spot dodge areas away, but the shield drop area hardly becomes larger (the x thresholds increase a bit, so after holding 175,128 for ~10 frames you can shield drop with 186,75 which would have caused a roll immediately after shielding / holding 175,128 for only 1-3 frames or so. The y values always stay at 73-75!).


¹For those unfamiliar with this: the Gamecube accepts X and Y values from 1-255. These values are read by the potentiometers the control stick’s switch box is attached to (I refer to the box as potentiometer in the guide, might have to change that—unfortunately I’m unfamiliar with electronic parts nomenclature). The switch box itself (see Technical knowledge compilation for further infos about that) physically limits these values to a range of approximately 10-249. These vary between types and individual boxes. The octagon around the control stick further cuts down this range to approx. 25-225. I don’t think this takes away options at all as in most situations (maybe all?) only the angle and certain thresholds are important.
So, for a typical controller 25,128 is straight left, 128,225 is straight up, 225,128 is straight right and 128,25 is straight down. As 128,128 is neutral, the range you can shield drop by doing a 1 frame motion is 3 (73, 74, 75) out of 108 (128, … , 225) if you look at the entire downward range of the control stick. So this method would be the fastest, but moving your thumb so quickly to a certain point is impossible to do consistently.

 

[Bones0]

No.

Did you FF before either move?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Wow. That is incredibly stupid frame window to try shield dropping... No wonder its so difficult to try attempting.

 

[Bones0]

Wow. That is incredibly stupid frame window to try shield dropping... No wonder its so difficult to try attempting.

Shai dropping and buffered shield drops are significantly easier than standing shield drops with no shield stun, though.

 

[Kadano]

Did you FF before either move?

No.

 

[Bones0]

No.

If you do, does uair protect you better?

 

[Kadano]

If you do, does uair protect you better?

No.

 

[Sacredtwin11]

Shai dropping and buffered shield drops are significantly easier than standing shield drops with no shield stun, though.

Are standing shield drops with no stun really that hard? Because I can get it like 60ish% of the time(I don't know,really, but it's a majority) and i'm pretty bad. It didn't take too much practice to learn either.

 

[Kadano]

Are standing shield drops with no stun really that hard?

Not at all. Except if you want to do it within 1 frame (which isn’t necessary). To be honest, I get them pretty consistently too (roughly 8 out of 10 times outside of a match with hardly any practice) while I don’t think I could hit that 2 frame window required for buffered shield drop (“shai drop”?) that often.

 

[Beat!]

It's not that hard once you get the hang of it (regular standing shield drops, that is).

Also, for anyone who's in the "can do it consistently when practicing but generally struggle with it in actual matches" phase of learning shield dropping, a little trick that worked out for me was to start waiting for the CPU (usually spacies) to hit my shield with an aerial before I dropped. Doing it that way does a much better job of replicating a real match situation than just "mindlessly" shield dropping over and over without interference.*


*I'm not saying you should stop doing that altogether , as it's still an efficient way to become consistent with the actual motion.

 

[BTmoney]

dash/shai drops are pretty easy.

but standing drops are a *****. idk why I was better at it like 2 months ago

 

[Bones0]

Not at all. Except if you want to do it within 1 frame (which isn’t necessary). To be honest, I get them pretty consistently too (roughly 8 out of 10 times outside of a match with hardly any practice) while I don’t think I could hit that 2 frame window required for buffered shield drop (“shai drop”?) that often.

How is it only a 2-frame window? You can shield drop at many different dash lengths.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

I did not know you could buffer shield drops. How?

 

[Kadano]

New section:

Moonwalking and stickywalking with Marth
Moving backwards noticably with Marth by moonwalking is only possible by walking or wavedashing in the opposite direction before. There are two ways of best moonwalks:
1. Dash right for 1 frame and hold straight from the next frame on. This is only possible during the first frames of a dash and not out of a dash dance or a turn. This is because going straight right to straight left usually produces a turn, but on the first two frames turning is not possible (on frame 3, the turn is still not possible, but unlike 1 and 2, holding left will not cause a moonwalk but a turn on frame 4)
2. Dash right, then hold left/down for two frames, then move to straight left. This works out of a dash dance.

To do a stickywalk, you need to hold forward/down (315° if looking to the right) as late as possible during the initial dash. If you do it 1 frame too late, the window where you can continue the dash into a run is over and you will simply crouch. If you do it to early, you will lose some momentum.
Marth can cover a great distance with this if it’s done perfectly. Here is a TAS video that shows how it’s done:

How is it only a 2-frame window? You can shield drop at many different dash lengths.

I only looked at Method 1 in Shai’s guide and was referring to the frame window for the shield input after the down input, which is a 2 frame window for that method. But yeah, with the other methods, this window is larger.

I did not know you could buffer shield drops. How?

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/shai-drop-update-detailed-guide-frame-data.322062/

 

[Bones0]

I did not know you could buffer shield drops. How?

Input the shield drop stick movement during landing lag or shield stun (while holding shield by the time you are out of lag ofc). I think it buffers for ~3 frames, but I don't think anyone has tested that.

I only looked at Method 1 in Shai’s guide and was referring to the frame window for the shield input after the down input, which is a 2 frame window for that method. But yeah, with the other methods, this window is larger.

Okay, that makes sense since I Shai drop with Method 2.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

The **** do we do about Fox's invincible ledgedash? How do we threaten the ledge during the firestall while still protecting ourselves from the different options (ledgedash-> nair / usmash / grab / shine).

I have a few ideas that seem to work, but I'd like to hear your input.

 

[AustinRC]

When I played Leffen in friendlies at Apex the best thing I could come up with was say further away from the ledge and just wait. There might be something better though but that's what I came up with.

 

[Kadano]

The **** do we do about Fox's invincible ledgedash? How do we threaten the ledge during the firestall while still protecting ourselves from the different options (ledgedash-> nair / usmash / grab / shine).

I have a few ideas that seem to work, but I'd like to hear your input.

I think retreating to the center of the stage and getting ready to dtilt immediately is the best safe choice, considering Fox can do virtually everything he wants to invincibly near the ledge. He can cover an absurd distance with ledgedash(→dash)→jc upsmash, the very extreme going this far: [collapse=1920×1080 png]

[/collapse]

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

But then they can just firestall forever

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Take a step back and look at reality please.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Take a step back and look at reality please.

...Fire stalling is extremely easy. I can do it for 8 minutes with no suicides in my sleep...and my Fox sucks. Besides, they don't even have to fire stall the whole time in that scenario. The can just do a regular regrab since you can't punish at center stage. Or they can do the fire stall at a staggered (slow) pace since they don't need to be perfect with you so far away.

-----------

Kadano:

How long does the invincibility on a full hop Bair out of the ledgedash last? Not up to when hes jumped past the side platform, right?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

More at Kadano's post was what I was referring too. People make mistakes even at the upper end. What Kadano is showing is like the maximum possible thing Fox could do off the ledge. I can have Jiggs get hit by Samus's charge shot near the ledge and with insane SDI direct myself off a platform and down the side of the stage to survive with teching. The thing is that people aren't going to be SDI every single hit of hitlag to do that. And people aren't going to be getting frame perfect throughout the whole maneuver from the ledge time and time again. Its more likely someone will linger on letting go from the ledge for a couple frames longer than they should; drop from the ledge a couple frames slow before 2nd jumping; or mess up their exact timing on dash -> jump cancel usmash. All of this eats up the invincibility timer fox has with those wasted frames due to the human element.

The point is that the range of potential offensive actions fox could do from the ledge is more TAS and only TAS. Its far more realistic to assume Fox is getting off the ledge and onto the stage invincible and you cannot stop him from touching the stage. Anything more such as "Oh, fox is going to get onto the stage and invincible Usmash me!" is not likely to happen. It is reasonable to assume that fox might roll, shield, spot dodge, jab, shine completely invincible, but not slower moves like Usmash or dash attack. So, Kadano saying stay at the center stage imo is something you shouldn't be doing.

Now, we get to your post Crimson. Lets think about Marth at the center of the stage and Fox at the ledge. Why do you think Fox would choose to ledge stall when you gave him half the stage of free space to get on? Sheik would prefer to ledge stall because she's stronger at the ledge. Fox is not great at the ledge against Marth, so he should be choosing to get onto the stage whenever possible (which is quite true with so much marth free space in front of fox in our situation).

Since Fox can get on the stage invincible you don't need to try attacking him before he gets off the ledge. Rather just give yourself some space to avoid jab/shine directly close to the ledge where the moves would be invincible. Which would be a spacing between center of BF and the center of the lower platform. In that space, you can safely react to all of Fox's options and stuff them.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Anything more such as "Oh, fox is going to get onto the stage and invincible Usmash me!" is not likely to happen. It is reasonable to assume that fox might roll, shield, spot dodge, jab, shine completely invincible, but not slower moves like Usmash

...ledgedashing with full or close to full invincibility isn't that hard and is growing more and more common by the day. ledgedashing into usmash is pretty standard, bro.

Why do you think Fox would choose to ledge stall when you gave him half the stage of free space to get on?

Because he has the lead and by taking center stage you are giving him a free time-out win.

Whether any Fox is whack enough to do that is a separate argument (and trust me, there are enough whack Foxes for one to try); I'm just trying to find an effective gameplan against it.

Fox is not great at the ledge against Marth

Maybe. Maybe not. Thats what we're trying to determine.

 

[SUNG666]

Consistent invincible up smash is completely feasible.

I think the way to deal with this is the way marth deals with people in the neutral game: threaten with dash dance.
If you weave back and forth from his invincible up smash/grab range from the ledge while threatening to be at a range where you could potentially d tilt then fox will be pressured into doing something at some point. There are probably a lot of options you could take which is to react and dash way back and punish (going to center stage) or if the fox is adamant about using an up smash you could shield it (probably not a sustainable option). And if you think they aren't going to go for a ledge jump drill you could overshoot the dash forward and go behind them when they try to ledgedash u smash/grab (also not that sustainable). I'm kind of against going onto a side platform because you don't have the time to punish whatever they would do and it'd put you in a bad spot.

If they can do frame perfect invincible firefox stall and they're in the lead the only thing you can do is to sacrifice positioning and threaten to grab the ledge from a backwards jump (and then dj wavelanding on side platforms and whatnot).

Never count out perfect/near perfect execution.

 

[Kadano]

Kadano:
How long does the invincibility on a full hop Bair out of the ledgedash last? Not up to when hes jumped past the side platform, right?

Fox can bring out 10 of bair’s active frames, all of these hit (at least slightly) above BF’s side platforms. I don’t think I got what exactly you mean by “past the side platform” though, sorry.

More at Kadano's post was what I was referring too. People make mistakes even at the upper end. What Kadano is showing is like the maximum possible thing Fox could do off the ledge.

Showing the maximum humanly possible is the purpose of this thread, thanks for pointing this out again … I guess.

I can have Jiggs get hit by Samus's charge shot near the ledge and with insane SDI direct myself off a platform and down the side of the stage to survive with teching. The thing is that people aren't going to be SDI every single hit of hitlag to do that.

Because it’s not humanly possible to rotate the control stick that fast. Ledgedashing into stuff is completely possible for the human hand.

And people aren't going to be getting frame perfect throughout the whole maneuver from the ledge time and time again. Its more likely someone will linger on letting go from the ledge for a couple frames longer than they should; drop from the ledge a couple frames slow before 2nd jumping; or mess up their exact timing on dash -> jump cancel usmash. All of this eats up the invincibility timer fox has with those wasted frames due to the human element.

The point is that the range of potential offensive actions fox could do from the ledge is more TAS and only TAS. Its far more realistic to assume Fox is getting off the ledge and onto the stage invincible and you cannot stop him from touching the stage. Anything more such as "Oh, fox is going to get onto the stage and invincible Usmash me!" is not likely to happen.

Have you seen recent video footage from leffen? He does this all the time. I can’t say exactly how far away he is from frame perfection because Youtube videos only have half the original framerate, but I’m pretty sure he drops about 5 invincibility frames at most during his ledgedash→grab. Perfect ledgedash would leave 16 free invincibility frames for Fox. Considering grab comes out on frame 6, he could have done it 5 frames slower and he would have still brought it out in time.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

To me, TAS stuff is a useful tool to help improve at the game and I think this thread could be really useful for that. But, I think it can only do that by taking a few steps back every so often and telling yourself is this actually useful to me at all to know about or is it purely academic or how reasonable is it expect someone to do this?

What you did with Fox and the regrab for no DI was really helpful to me and explains why I kept dropping so many CGs. Its impossible to regrab him rather than the fact that Fox gets out of stun fast enough to stun you and that seems really important to know about. The moonwalk/sticky walk thing was interesting, but not really sure how it might be helpful to someone.

"To bring Marth players a comprehensive resource so they can quickly check the possibilities in certain situations. In contrast to Marth Hitboxes and Frame Data, this thread is less about the moves itself, but more about applications."

Seeking applications for certain situations. Well, doesn't the applications come from something new when you dissect and critical analyze a topic? I'm just trying to help that process along. A few things are probably going to be wrong along the way during it though.

In the end, Crimson brought the question and Kadano provided the threshold and limits the game can provide. The next step to me would be to think more about it as a group. You, kadano, suggested center stage, and I am trying to show potential flaws with that since you give up lots of the stage giving Fox back on for free, but due to potential for player mishaps you probably do not have to stand at center stage and rather much closer to threaten fox if he gets on, but far enough away to avoid punishment from near the ledge.

Although, I guess if no one cares about getting different view points I'll just shut-up and do my own thing.

 

[Kadano]

The moonwalk/sticky walk thing was interesting, but not really sure how it might be helpful to someone.

It’s not a particularly useful technique, that’s true. It might be good for unexpectedly edgehogging sometimes, but it’s more of a styling tool than anything else.
I only included it because someone asked me how far you can go with it. It’s a (probably Marth-specific?) gimmick that few people knew about (noone in my local scene, at least). I will add in its description that it shouldn’t be seen as something you really need to learn, thank you for pointing this out.

Seeking applications for certain situations. Well, doesn't the applications come from something new when you dissect and critical analyze a topic? I'm just trying to help that process along. A few things are probably going to be wrong along the way during it though.

Yeah, and this time it was. Invincible upsmash is already a reality, and you telling us that it was not just wasn’t helpful. No offense.

In the end, Crimson brought the question and Kadano provided the threshold and limits the game can provide. The next step to me would be to think more about it as a group. You, kadano, suggested center stage, and I am trying to show potential flaws with that since you give up lots of the stage giving Fox back on for free, but due to potential for player mishaps you probably do not have to stand at center stage and rather much closer to threaten fox if he gets on, but far enough away to avoid punishment from near the ledge.

For reference, this is how far ledgedash→upsmash (no dash in between) can go:

I think we can conclude we should at least avoid being in that range, for upsmashes this far are already standard for some players. Keeping outside of the range I previously posted might be advisable, depending on how frame-perfect Foxes can/will do this motion.

You say we shouldn’t give up our threatening position. But how much can you threaten someone with 16 frames of invincibility he can freely use? I think SUNG666 is right about dashdance being the appropriate way of dealing with this situation, and when you respect the range in which Fox can easily hit you, it might even still be an advantageous position. The appropriate range you should dashdance in is approximately under the inner end of BF’s side platform, so coming from an edgeguarding spacing, you definitely need to retreat. Staying there attempting to punish him on reaction is just giving him a free hit.

 

[BTmoney]

Any merit to doing a haxdash (waveland backwards from the ledge) and double jumping (before you regrab the ledge) on to the side platform to get off the ledge on battlefield?

I was just messing around yesterday and I realized you could do that and even better you land with what looks like 0 lag if you do it right

 

[Bones0]

Any merit to doing a haxdash (waveland backwards from the ledge) and double jumping (before you regrab the ledge) on to the side platform to get off the ledge on battlefield?

I was just messing around yesterday and I realized you could do that and even better you land with what looks like 0 lag if you do it right

Damn, that sounds sick, but it doesn't seem very useful since there's no way you'll be able to shield on the plat before your invinc runs out and your DJ to the plat will only help you avoid a few specific moves in reaction to your ledgedash.

 

[BTmoney]

Damn, that sounds sick, but it doesn't seem very useful since there's no way you'll be able to shield on the plat before your invinc runs out and your DJ to the plat will only help you avoid a few specific moves in reaction to your ledgedash.

Lol yeah I'm pretty sure you land as if you were doing a no-impact drop since you approach the platform at such a shallow angle which makes it even more delicious. But yeah idk. Maybe it has some situational value similar to how spacies side B on to the stage from the ledge since the invincibility isn't as important as your position relative to your opponent. Who knows lol

It is pretty slick though

 

[Kadano]

Any merit to doing a haxdash (waveland backwards from the ledge) and double jumping (before you regrab the ledge) on to the side platform to get off the ledge on battlefield?

I was just messing around yesterday and I realized you could do that and even better you land with what looks like 0 lag if you do it right

Even with perfect execution, the first frame you lose your invincibility is as early as this:

It takes another 15 frames until no-impact land.

 

[Dark Lady]

Reacting to ledgegrab as soon as possible to max out invincibility
As soon as you grab the ledge, the light blue circle spawns and grows larger and the sound effect is played. I think the wisest choice is reacting to the sound effect because you can still keep eyes on your opponent that way. As soon as the sound and circle effects are played, it takes another 7 frames until you can let go of the ledge. These 7 frames (~120 ms) are a bit less than top human visual reaction times (~130 ms). Mean is about 330 ms, Melee players, being trained for fast reaction and male (both factors correlating with low reaction times) probably average at about 200 ms.
Auditory reaction time is a bit faster (about 80% of the visual reaction times), so that’s another argument to go for the sound and not for the circle flash.

If your auditory reaction time is top 1‰, you might be too fast so if you train yourself to press away when you hear the click sound, you do it too early. I think even if this is the case for you, practicing it for a while will make you automatically delay it a bit anyway.

tl;dr: press away as soon as you hear the clicking sound

In your face douchebro:

Take gender out of the equation please. It's not a factor, and that's sexist.

Oh, and it appears i'm in the top 1% for auditory too.

 

[Bones0]

In your face douchebro:

Take gender out of the equation please. It's not a factor, and that's sexist.

Oh, and it appears i'm in the top 1% for auditory too.

It is a factor, though. Males have faster reaction times than females on average. They also have bigger brains (not that size indicates a difference in brain power ofc). Facts can't be sexist. Only people who use those facts to treat either sex as inferior in some way can be sexist.

 

[Dark Lady]

It is a factor, though. Males have faster reaction times than females on average. They also have bigger brains (not that size indicates a difference in brain power ofc). Facts can't be sexist. Only people who use those facts to treat either sex as inferior in some way can be sexist.

Ok, i'm just going to have one post about this on here, and i'm not gonna go any further than that; it's a topic for 'the Perfect Marth', as much as i'd like to take the time to educate you all.

The gap between women's and men's reaction time is getting smaller and smaller. Because now women are getting more into things like fast action sports and video games. It's a factor of nurture rather than nature; as is many 'bio-facts'. In actuality, research is showing that nurture is the main things separating men and women psychologically; and that the two genders actually do not vary much at all in that regard.

Anyways, being male is not a factor. Playing video games, like Melee, is. There are just less of us women that do so.

So, to finalize my point, gender. Is not. A factor. Any further arguments, just PM me or make a thread for it.

 

[Kadano]

In your face douchebro

Do you seriously expect me to listen to you after starting your post with an insult?

If you have read some studies that find male and female reaction times to peak at the same amount, I’ll gladly update the op. But so far, all studies I’ve seen said otherwise.

 

[swanized]

Ok, i'm just going to have one post about this on here, and i'm not gonna go any further than that; it's a topic for 'the Perfect Marth', as much as i'd like to take the time to educate you all.

The gap between women's and men's reaction time is getting smaller and smaller. Because now women are getting more into things like fast action sports and video games. It's a factor of nurture rather than nature; as is many 'bio-facts'. In actuality, research is showing that nurture is the main things separating men and women psychologically; and that the two genders actually do not vary much at all in that regard.

Anyways, being male is not a factor. Playing video games, like Melee, is. There are just less of us women that do so.

So, to finalize my point, gender. Is not. A factor. Any further arguments, just PM me or make a thread for it.

I don't actually have an opinion on what you're saying but would like to point out that the difference between nature and nurture is a highly controversial topic amongst sociologists and probably isn't as clear as you make it out to be. Back to melee.

 

[Dark Lady]

Do you seriously expect me to listen to you after starting your post with an insult?

If you have read some studies that find male and female reaction times to peak at the same amount, I’ll gladly update the op. But so far, all studies I’ve seen said otherwise.

I'll admit, the insult was a bit much; I meant it more for teasing, but it got interpreted differently. PM me for the research sort of thing later.

As for Marth questions; I would like to request an exploration of the shield-breaker option for getting around Falco's lasers. It was mentioned in another thread iirc, and it, from what they were saying there, has a good hitbox, smaller hurtbox, and just can't combo; but the frames are short enough to shield or WD after a whiff. Is there some way we can get a TAS example of this and if it really is viable?

 

[-Ran]

In your face douchebro:

Take gender out of the equation please. It's not a factor, and that's sexist.

Oh, and it appears i'm in the top 1% for auditory too.

I remember that test. I used to take it after playing Quake 3 matches back in the day. I'd hit around 160-170ms consistently. Let me give it the ol' college try.

I'm not as fast as I used to be. D: Oh well. Gender matters in tests like this; clicking things quickly is a neural pathway forged from playing countless PC games. You can even take it a step further that many individuals do not have the proper monitors to do the test themselves, or the best input device to enable them to execute properly. Laptop monitors tend to have horrible lag, after all.

But, at what point does this really matter? If I recall, a frame is 16.7 Milliseconds, so even though I have a much faster reaction time than you, it provides me with only 1 frame of difference. I'm still taking 10-11 frames to react off raw stimuli, before we look at situational spacing modifiers or prediction. Even against someone with average reaction times, I'm only getting 2-3 frames of difference. Now, this matters more in a game with Hitscan Railgun style weapons, such as Call of Duty, or Quake 3; however, in a fighting game with so many prediction based additives to the equation, you don't need to put so much stock in reaction times.

 

[Bones0]

Even with perfect execution, the first frame you lose your invincibility is as early as this:

It takes another 15 frames until no-impact land.

What about on YS or DL? I figure you probably you won't land much faster (if at all) so you'll have about the same number of vulnerable frames, but idk how no-impact lands really work, like if there is a window of frames with varying speeds. I'm particularly interested in doing it on Yoshi's because of how far out the platforms stick. I can actually do it without DJing forward at all. Does the slant affect how you can or should airdodge at all?

Can you do the same sort of movement as the no-impact land, but get a fair hitbox out before your invincibility runs out instead?

Is it harder or easier to no-impact land from Marth's DJ back as opposed to his DJ forward or straight up?

Also, completely unrelated, can you DJ backwards when ledgestalling and still grab the ledge as fast as possible?