Jason!
Smash Lord
#Legalize temple
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Canada [Jul 26, 2014] B.C. Brawl Monthlies - Back in business, now featuring Smash 64! (Burnaby, BC)
- Thread starter ~Firefly~
- Start date
| Big D |
Smash Master
T-block
B2B TST
what happened to the #legalizemariocircuit movement
i liked that movement
i liked that movement
Kantrip
Kantplay
Me too 
| Big D |
Smash Master
Couldn't shark on that stage
as a character who is one of the least bothered by sharking thanks to such good mobility options I suppose my opinion is less important. Delfino is one of my favourite stages in the game, which is basically why I don't ban it against Jake.
That being said, Halberd is a different story. Half of it is a great MK stage. Half of it is an awful MK stage. Yes he has a really overpowered strategy on the air transformation but I think it's barely a better stage for him overall than frigate is. If your character struggles against sharking, ban delfino. I think MK is no more powerful on delfino than ICs are on FD. I know Dawson's motivations aren't selfish since he wins everything anyways, but I really believe that there are no more grounds to ban delfino than FD, since one character is extremely powerful each stage. And yeah, the character overpowered on Delfino happens to be far and away the most popular character, but that doesn't change the fact that each stage has a character that it gets auto-banned against.
Also I think that this discussion is beneficial to our community as long as people stay away from personal insults, even if they are meant as jokes.
Edit: Last thing, giving Dawson's opinion more weight on ruleset discussion because he wins a everything is basically like that thing people suggested last year, that we should adopt Japanese ruleset just because they dominated Apex 2012. He has lots of evidence, and that's what should make his input more important.
That being said, Halberd is a different story. Half of it is a great MK stage. Half of it is an awful MK stage. Yes he has a really overpowered strategy on the air transformation but I think it's barely a better stage for him overall than frigate is. If your character struggles against sharking, ban delfino. I think MK is no more powerful on delfino than ICs are on FD. I know Dawson's motivations aren't selfish since he wins everything anyways, but I really believe that there are no more grounds to ban delfino than FD, since one character is extremely powerful each stage. And yeah, the character overpowered on Delfino happens to be far and away the most popular character, but that doesn't change the fact that each stage has a character that it gets auto-banned against.
Also I think that this discussion is beneficial to our community as long as people stay away from personal insults, even if they are meant as jokes.
Edit: Last thing, giving Dawson's opinion more weight on ruleset discussion because he wins a everything is basically like that thing people suggested last year, that we should adopt Japanese ruleset just because they dominated Apex 2012. He has lots of evidence, and that's what should make his input more important.
Alphicans
Smash Hero
| Big D |
Smash Master
There is a difference between a stage being good because it works with a characters attributes and a stage offering an over powered strategy. Stages aren't banned to offer character balance, stages are banned because they tend to stray from player interaction. The balancing of character attributes was left to Sakurai and his team.
ICs on FD are not in the same league as MK on delfino. There is no comparison. ICs lose to characters and don't have an unbeatable strategy. Their attributes just make them good there, but they are combat-able and they still go even/lose in many MUs on that stage. Not to mention it's only one stage so it gets banned anyways. You have options vs ICs on FD, you don't have options vs a sharking MK unless you go MK.
If your character struggles with sharking, you're going to get sharked regardless. If you ban halberd you go to delfino and if you ban delfino you go to halberd. There is no escaping sharking, similar to how there was no escaping rainbow cruise and brinstar.
ICs on FD are not in the same league as MK on delfino. There is no comparison. ICs lose to characters and don't have an unbeatable strategy. Their attributes just make them good there, but they are combat-able and they still go even/lose in many MUs on that stage. Not to mention it's only one stage so it gets banned anyways. You have options vs ICs on FD, you don't have options vs a sharking MK unless you go MK.
If your character struggles with sharking, you're going to get sharked regardless. If you ban halberd you go to delfino and if you ban delfino you go to halberd. There is no escaping sharking, similar to how there was no escaping rainbow cruise and brinstar.
What would happen if we were allowed to ban two stages? >_>
How about not allowing MK to counterpick on certain stages?
Yeah, I don't like the idea of banning either Halberd or Delfiino Plaza and being taken to the other one that isn't banned. I also really miss Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar...
How about not allowing MK to counterpick on certain stages?
Yeah, I don't like the idea of banning either Halberd or Delfiino Plaza and being taken to the other one that isn't banned. I also really miss Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar...
Alphicans
Smash Hero
What is the meaningful difference between working with a characters attributes and an over powered strategy? That sounds like an arbitrary distinction and shouldn't be taken seriously.
Why is non-combatable automatically an over powered strategy? Why can't the option to beat it be doing nothing at all and avoiding all damage? Why put so much importance on combat interactions and not running away interactions? How are running away interactions any less of player interactions than fighting interactions? Because one is more fun than the other? Again this sounds like an arbitrary distinction and shouldn't be taken seriously.
Finally what defines an unbeatable strategy, and why does ICs not have one and MK does?
Why is non-combatable automatically an over powered strategy? Why can't the option to beat it be doing nothing at all and avoiding all damage? Why put so much importance on combat interactions and not running away interactions? How are running away interactions any less of player interactions than fighting interactions? Because one is more fun than the other? Again this sounds like an arbitrary distinction and shouldn't be taken seriously.
Finally what defines an unbeatable strategy, and why does ICs not have one and MK does?
| Big D |
Smash Master
That's actually what Kansas does.
Their stage list is
Starter
BF
SV
FD
LC
YI
CP
Delfino
Rainbow
PS1
Siege
2 Stage bans
MK is banned on delfino and RC.
It actually nerfs ICs overall and gives other characters the stage variety but tones MK down a bit without the stages making him broken.
This rule set is a compromise. It's a compromise between keeping him legal and having him banned. It's a good compromise imo, nationals from this point on are going to have halberd and Delfino banned, but this is a good compromise.
| Big D |
Smash Master
Character attributes give the character with the stage benefit a boost in their rps options, but still vulnerable. An overpowered strategy has no RPS game, just a strategy can't fail with 0 risk and no RPS game at all, or one that you can't lose. You're thinking of this as "If I do it right I will always avoid sharking" but realistically you will always be above MK with no means of attacking him. He gets to do that for free and can do it over and over until an opportunity arises. There is no counter, running is not a counter.
Running away isn't reading anything, reads are rps.
Why are there two stage bans? (I'm dumb ) Is that also to make up for Rainbow Cruise being back? What about Brinstar?
But yeah, Rainbow Cruise/Brinstar would always be banned, haha.
) Is that also to make up for Rainbow Cruise being back? What about Brinstar?But yeah, Rainbow Cruise/Brinstar would always be banned, haha.
Alphicans
Smash Hero
Why is running not a counter? If you avoid all damage and the result is you now play on a stage that does not offer MK that advantage, then you have successfully countered MK's strategy. Why is vulnerability the measure of overpoweredness? Why can't the measure of overpoweredness be the potential to do the most damage? If something is invulnerable but at the same time does absolutely nothing, how can that be overpowered? This seems absurd. I am not saying that sharking does nothing, but there is something wrong with your proposed definition.
| Big D |
Smash Master
It doesn't do absolutely nothing. If you stay grounded, you're going to be poked by upairs and eventually nado'd. If you try and retreat to the air, you offer MK a huge positional advantage. MK can frame trap/nado landings. You may be able to avoid some damage, but the point is any damage MK gets is free damage and there was no risk to obtain that. Having a strategy that offers such a huge positional advantage and gives free damage is incredibly over powered. Not to mention he is MK and has an advantage in every position.
Edit: Going to bed now but...
"ICs are better at stalling than MK"
- Captain L
Edit: Going to bed now but...
"ICs are better at stalling than MK"
- Captain L
traffic.
Smash Journeyman
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- Sep 1, 2012
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- 427
Absolutely 100%. Constant research and game knowledge combined with practical application make Dawson an authority. Winning just happens to be the byproduct of those (and others, irrelevant to this discussion) factors. This in no way takes away from anyone else's value, just backin' the D up yo.
srs edit- no srsly #legalizeit >:|
_GrapE_
Smash Lord
Brandon. Les chill. PM. Up the road. Not right now. Just whenever.
| Big D |
Smash Master
I'd like to point out that it's not me coming to this conclusion from out of no where.
Big TOs have come to the same realization after running tournaments with the rule set we use now except on a larger scale. They are the ones who have come to this realization, after seeing it in play many times.
Here is Pierce talking about his views on sharking, and also Keitaro claiming that big name TOs are phasing out the stage everywhere (5:40)
Many other top players have given there sediments on MK on Delfino and Halberd.
So far what we can agree with is that only MK can combat sharking.
And what you have said is the only "counter" is to run which isn't a counter at all or scrooging would still be legal and there would be no lgl.
If running was a counter, I'd never beat Landon.
There's two ways to deal with this, ban the stage or ban MK, and I'm sure Arcansi would tell you to ban MK.
Big TOs have come to the same realization after running tournaments with the rule set we use now except on a larger scale. They are the ones who have come to this realization, after seeing it in play many times.
Here is Pierce talking about his views on sharking, and also Keitaro claiming that big name TOs are phasing out the stage everywhere (5:40)
Many other top players have given there sediments on MK on Delfino and Halberd.
So far what we can agree with is that only MK can combat sharking.
And what you have said is the only "counter" is to run which isn't a counter at all or scrooging would still be legal and there would be no lgl.
If running was a counter, I'd never beat Landon.
There's two ways to deal with this, ban the stage or ban MK, and I'm sure Arcansi would tell you to ban MK.
Alphicans
Smash Hero
It's almost as if you don't realize there are platforms to stall on during the sharing phases of these stages
T-block
B2B TST
^yeah...
i may be out of touch, but i've always considered ICs on FD to be scarier than MK on delfino for most characters... last i checked, the stage doesn't have a passthrough main platform all the time
i may be out of touch, but i've always considered ICs on FD to be scarier than MK on delfino for most characters... last i checked, the stage doesn't have a passthrough main platform all the time
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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- Jun 3, 2010
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- 9,313
Just to note on what KS does
We have a 9 or 11 stage list depending on what people want to do:
Battlefield
Smashville
Yoshi's Island Brawl
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 1
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Castle Siege
Rainbow Cruise
(Pokemon Stadium 2)
(Frigate Orpheon)
These are common legal stages that don't have hitboxes as stage elements which has a strong argument towards focusing specifically on player vs. player with the scoreboard as a measuring criteria. We don't do a starter / counter pick distinction, which nerfs character like ICs since I play a lot of my first games on like Pokemon Stadium or Castle Siege or something like that. We then ban Metaknight on Delfino Plaza and Rainbow Cruise which obviously nerfs MK under the premise that most of the country thinks he's pretty auto-win their anyways enough to outright ban those stages. We then do two stage bans for two reasons: 1. It again nerfs ICs (especially in a 5 game set). 2. It allows an MK main to not have to be forced off his character by virtue of banning RC/DP.
We have a 9 or 11 stage list depending on what people want to do:
Battlefield
Smashville
Yoshi's Island Brawl
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 1
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Castle Siege
Rainbow Cruise
(Pokemon Stadium 2)
(Frigate Orpheon)
These are common legal stages that don't have hitboxes as stage elements which has a strong argument towards focusing specifically on player vs. player with the scoreboard as a measuring criteria. We don't do a starter / counter pick distinction, which nerfs character like ICs since I play a lot of my first games on like Pokemon Stadium or Castle Siege or something like that. We then ban Metaknight on Delfino Plaza and Rainbow Cruise which obviously nerfs MK under the premise that most of the country thinks he's pretty auto-win their anyways enough to outright ban those stages. We then do two stage bans for two reasons: 1. It again nerfs ICs (especially in a 5 game set). 2. It allows an MK main to not have to be forced off his character by virtue of banning RC/DP.
Alphicans
Smash Hero
I like alot of what that rule set is especially the nondistinction between cp and neutral. I've viewed that as silly for a long time now. However why ban mk on those stages when you get 2 stage bans?
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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By banning MK on those stages, it makes it so those stages will actually see use in competitive play. For example, if I mained Wario, I'd be extremely good on rainbow cruise. Until MK was picked. Then I'm now extremely bad on rainbow cruise. Since nobody picks/autobans those stages for fear of MK, removing him from the equation specifically on those stages allows specific characters to actually exercise some of their best CPs. I've seen game 1's between Wario/GW go to RC out of striking preference. I've seen DDD/ZSS/Pit/GW/ off the top of my head actually safely CP RC on characters without feeling the wrath of tornado alley.
It also sets up a sort of compromise where MK legality is concerned. For everyone that's not MK, you play on the more liberal stage list which is the norm for that kind of rulesset. When MK is involved, the MU's are by default played on a more conservative stage list (very similar to the Socal 7 / Japanese Stage list if basing it off 9 stages, similar to Apex stages if using the 11 stage variant). A lot of this is based off TO rumblings to remove the stages over the past year and a half (first RC then DP). It's also based off the MLG matchslip data and some statistical counting I've done on Apex matches indicating MKs dominance on those stages (specifically DP).
If you don't feel like surgically banning MK on specific stages, obviously that's fine. I'd just simply add 2 stage bans to the 11 stages I suggested and the worst "sharking" issue would be on frigate, where it's really not a horrible issue. However you'd lose the viability of RC/DP actually being used almost universally across the MU spectrum if that were to happen.
It also sets up a sort of compromise where MK legality is concerned. For everyone that's not MK, you play on the more liberal stage list which is the norm for that kind of rulesset. When MK is involved, the MU's are by default played on a more conservative stage list (very similar to the Socal 7 / Japanese Stage list if basing it off 9 stages, similar to Apex stages if using the 11 stage variant). A lot of this is based off TO rumblings to remove the stages over the past year and a half (first RC then DP). It's also based off the MLG matchslip data and some statistical counting I've done on Apex matches indicating MKs dominance on those stages (specifically DP).
If you don't feel like surgically banning MK on specific stages, obviously that's fine. I'd just simply add 2 stage bans to the 11 stages I suggested and the worst "sharking" issue would be on frigate, where it's really not a horrible issue. However you'd lose the viability of RC/DP actually being used almost universally across the MU spectrum if that were to happen.
Alphicans
Smash Hero
I am not sure if I agree with the initial premises. RC is gaws best cp vs mk... I'd imagine its a good cp for pika and wario aswell. I understand the reasoning though
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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May or may not be true, but statistically speaking GW might be an outlier outside the norm to address that, or the current perception of what to do with GnW against MK might be off. I've seen some pretty bad games for GnW's against top MKs on RC in MKs favor. At least for Wario/Pika, I can think of anecdotal evidence off the top of my head (ie wolf main beating a top pika main with MK on RC) that confirms the premise. Either way GnW is at best possibly an exception or at worst not an exception.
Realistically speaking though a GnW (or any) player could allow an opponent to go MK against them on RC if that's agreed upon by both parties, which addresses that either way.
Realistically speaking though a GnW (or any) player could allow an opponent to go MK against them on RC if that's agreed upon by both parties, which addresses that either way.
| Big D |
Smash Master
And now you are on a platform above MK where he can still poke at you and follow you with nado >.>
Stages like temple and norfair are banned because of circle camping.
Stages with walk offs are banned for camping the blast zones.
This is just another form of unreachable camping, a long with scrooging and planking.
Alphicans
Smash Hero
As a gaw player if I am forcing mk to confront me in the air in any way then I am doing something right. Other characters also love platform camping mk (wario). Just because ics, snake, Marth, diddy, olimar etc don't like being above mk doesn't warrant a ban it just means the character isn't as good as you thought and you need multiple characters.
Scrooging and planking can be done forever... Sharking cannot so I don't see how you can equate them.
@lux: you can never know whether the stage was responsible or if the player was. If the math you're talking about is Esam vs that wolf then lol. That match ended with a mk usmash killing relatively low. Now if gaw is truly an outlier as in he beats mk in RC (I believe this to be the case) then there truly wouldn't be a great reason to ban it. In your ruleset it could go like this: ban maybe delfino and brinstar and I'd mk goes RC go gaw or if other characters go even with mk there. Also I think if you looked at top level gaw play vs top level mk play on RC you'd be surprised what you find. My point is that something being an outlier doesn't make it irrelevant.
Scrooging and planking can be done forever... Sharking cannot so I don't see how you can equate them.
@lux: you can never know whether the stage was responsible or if the player was. If the math you're talking about is Esam vs that wolf then lol. That match ended with a mk usmash killing relatively low. Now if gaw is truly an outlier as in he beats mk in RC (I believe this to be the case) then there truly wouldn't be a great reason to ban it. In your ruleset it could go like this: ban maybe delfino and brinstar and I'd mk goes RC go gaw or if other characters go even with mk there. Also I think if you looked at top level gaw play vs top level mk play on RC you'd be surprised what you find. My point is that something being an outlier doesn't make it irrelevant.
| Big D |
Smash Master
I play Wario, Wario does not want to confront MK in the air. If anything this is the one MU where Wario wants to stay grounded. I can only see GW ever wanting to be above MK, and even then I disagree with that. GWs current MU suggests a -2 with MK, he also has no means to combat MK's sharking.
No character can get away from MKs sharking, besides MK. With the current stage list no matter what is banned, you will end up being sharked by MK. No other character besides MK has the tools to combat sharking. MK has the best stalling capacity in the game and the best defensive options, as he is always in a positional advantage. Even with the platform eventually disappearing and minimizing the damage taken, on the transformations without it the non MK HAS to approach in order to make up from the percent that they will gain from being sharked.
It's not even just the incredible position that MK is in, but also the time out opportunities it creates.
As Pierce said no character has the tools besides MK to deal with him on the stages. Many top players have given their sediments and the circle of Apex TOs who endorsed the rule set agree. They have acknowledged it's a problem, they see it for what it is.
No character can get away from MKs sharking, besides MK. With the current stage list no matter what is banned, you will end up being sharked by MK. No other character besides MK has the tools to combat sharking. MK has the best stalling capacity in the game and the best defensive options, as he is always in a positional advantage. Even with the platform eventually disappearing and minimizing the damage taken, on the transformations without it the non MK HAS to approach in order to make up from the percent that they will gain from being sharked.
It's not even just the incredible position that MK is in, but also the time out opportunities it creates.
As Pierce said no character has the tools besides MK to deal with him on the stages. Many top players have given their sediments and the circle of Apex TOs who endorsed the rule set agree. They have acknowledged it's a problem, they see it for what it is.
T-block
B2B TST
Alphicans
Smash Hero
Umm yes wario does want to confront mk in the air. Are you suggesting you confront a grounded mk who will wall you out incredibly easily. Gaw vs mk isn't a -2 I am almost certain it'll be agreed to be -1, although its not like these numbers are relavant to the discussion at all. You also have yet to explain why characters cannot simply run away from sharking. Instead you say they can't and conclude that big tos agree these stages are a problem which again has no relevance to actually determining whether or not sharking is op
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
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I doubt anyone would make the argument that Wario/GnW beats MK on Delfino at the very least, regardless of the viability of countering sharking as a tactic. It doesn't really matter if you want to argue the semantics of if sharking is/isn't beatable since you can't really ban sharking realistically speaking.
However the argument of MK being extremely overpowered on stages such as Delfino/RC has been shown nearly across the board when the MU has been played at every large scale tournaments. It's pretty much statistical fact. So barring a discrete character ban which is possible, the next best thing is a discrete character ban on a specific stage which is also possible. Arguing sharking means nothing to be honest since you can't discretely ban sharking as a tactic since there isn't a clear definition and in game measuring device of the tactic like one can do for the LGL.
However the argument of MK being extremely overpowered on stages such as Delfino/RC has been shown nearly across the board when the MU has been played at every large scale tournaments. It's pretty much statistical fact. So barring a discrete character ban which is possible, the next best thing is a discrete character ban on a specific stage which is also possible. Arguing sharking means nothing to be honest since you can't discretely ban sharking as a tactic since there isn't a clear definition and in game measuring device of the tactic like one can do for the LGL.
| Big D |
Smash Master
Wario gets walled extremely hard in the air and gets frame trapped by his aerials. Wario wants to read MKs grounded options from the ground and punishing from there.
The ratio is relevant because characters who have the tools to handle MK nornally don't have the tools to "evade" sharking, while the characters who have the tools to "evade" don't have tools to handle MK.
I say sharking is 0 risk with a reward. It's not guaranteed if you do it once but enough times you will build percent. MK puts himself in an EXTREMELY advantageous position with a means to control the confrontation without putting himself in any danger. There is no evading sharking because there is no where else to go.
The big TOs doing this is just a reflection of what I'm saying in the meta game. They have seen this in person many times and are more knowledgeable about this game than I.
Alphicans
Smash Hero
No I wouldn't say they beat him there, but I think if played properly sharking will yield nothing vs a fairly large amount of characters.
Just did this and thought I'd share if anybody wants to try as well: http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp It's the Meyers-Brigg [Personality] Type Indicator!
I scored ESFJ which is kinda accurate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESFJ (scroll down to Characteristics)
Relying on sharking is kinda lame and desperate... I'd be embarrassed to use a tactic like that.
I scored ESFJ which is kinda accurate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESFJ (scroll down to Characteristics)
Relying on sharking is kinda lame and desperate... I'd be embarrassed to use a tactic like that.
~Firefly~
Smash Hero
Yeah, that description definitely sounds a lot like you. =P
I got INTJ, as usual (I've taken similar tests a few times before). I always score really strong Introversion, but it almost seems like my preference for Judging over Perceiving increases over time...
I got INTJ, as usual (I've taken similar tests a few times before). I always score really strong Introversion, but it almost seems like my preference for Judging over Perceiving increases over time...
I think I usually get INTJ as well
Although I know this is not a solid logical argument, I should point out that taking specific measures to limit mk isn't very necessary in a region that has 1 mk placing in the top 6, and only 2 in the top 8.
Random unrelated note: I think an ideal 3-stage-list would be like bf/sv/YI. But I don't think that such a small number of stages is ideal in the first place.
Although I know this is not a solid logical argument, I should point out that taking specific measures to limit mk isn't very necessary in a region that has 1 mk placing in the top 6, and only 2 in the top 8.
Random unrelated note: I think an ideal 3-stage-list would be like bf/sv/YI. But I don't think that such a small number of stages is ideal in the first place.